I researched how GPS works

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I researched how GPS works
« on: January 28, 2019, 03:36:45 PM »
GPS satellites continuously broadcast their position and speed, they are NOT geosynchronous, they move relative to the earth's surface. The developer of the software inside the GPS receiver takes the position, speed and distance broadcast by each satellite continuously and calculates your position (and therefor, over time, your speed) by using the signals from multiple satellites. Think triangulation. Quadrangulation.

https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/8128/Writing-Your-Own-GPS-Applications-Part-I

Here is a program to show the output of each satellite and its position:

http://www.visualgps.net/#visualgpsview-content

On RE, some high school 3d geometry then gives your position and we all know it works.

How does it work on FE? 

Bear in mind the receiver must report satellite speeds, so no simple substitute balloon, ship, or land station for GPS satellite. You must do things like make the signal strength go up when the satellite is over head and weaker when further away, and maybe in opposite direction for someone else at the same time on different frequencies for different satellites. Impressive fakery.

Since GPS does produce the place you are, any FE solution must include some math. I doubt such a system is possible, Gauss's theorem says you can't project a curved surface onto a flat one without distorting the distances. Same problem as FE map.

Will you have to bring the GPS receiver companies into your conspiracy? Makes it easier to explain (the satellite explanation can be completely phony), but hundreds (thousands?) of people all over the world would know FE.

FExplanations?

 







 

Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?

Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2019, 11:58:37 PM »
In the Information Repository Jane describes how a non satellite version might work by delaying signals. Clearly this would not work as receivers receive from eg. 15 transmitters from all directions and receivers in different locations would not show the correct location.

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rabinoz

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 01:06:49 AM »
In the Information Repository Jane describes how a non satellite version might work by delaying signals. Clearly this would not work as receivers receive from eg. 15 transmitters from all directions and receivers in different locations would not show the correct location.
I believe that the GNSS specification can handle stationary transmitters (it's built onto Galileo at least) to provide better precision in critical regions, such as airports and ports.

Right now my tablet locks onto up to 27 satellites, mainly GPS (US), GLONASS (Russian) and BeiDou (Chinese).
My phone receives 32 (including Galileo) or so but locks onto 25. Of course all involved in receiver software design could also be "part of the conspiracy ::)".

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Bullwinkle

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 01:51:20 AM »

Right now my tablet locks onto up to 27 satellites,. . . My phone receives 32 (including Galileo) or so but locks onto 25.

Bragger.   ;D

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JackBlack

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 02:20:33 AM »
I believe that the GNSS specification can handle stationary transmitters
I'm pretty sure what was meant was using land based transmitters to fake satellite based transmitters, especially as you can measure the signals yourself and decode them following the math based upon a RE. (i.e. build your own receiver).

The issue then becomes are these signals really coming from these satellites, or are they fake?
If they do use satellites and RE math it is a serious issue for FE to resolve (like the multitude of others issues).

For a single location (that is already known) it would be trivial to just send them the appropriate signal at the appropriate time to fake the signal from the satellites and have the math work out nicely.

So you could use a ground based system to fake a satellite based system for one location.
By using multiple directional transmitters you might be able to fake it for a few locations.
But what happens when you move just a bit?
For a satellite directly overhead there is basically no change in the travel time for the light.
But for a ground based one in the direction you moved, it would have an effect based upon how far you move, making it massively inaccurate.

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rabinoz

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 02:53:31 AM »
I believe that the GNSS specification can handle stationary transmitters
I'm pretty sure what was meant was using land based transmitters to fake satellite based transmitters, especially as you can measure the signals yourself and decode them following the math based upon a RE. (i.e. build your own receiver).

The issue then becomes are these signals really coming from these satellites, or are they fake?
If they do use satellites and RE math it is a serious issue for FE to resolve (like the multitude of others issues).

For a single location (that is already known) it would be trivial to just send them the appropriate signal at the appropriate time to fake the signal from the satellites and have the math work out nicely.

So you could use a ground based system to fake a satellite based system for one location.
By using multiple directional transmitters you might be able to fake it for a few locations.
But what happens when you move just a bit?
For a satellite directly overhead there is basically no change in the travel time for the light.
But for a ground based one in the direction you moved, it would have an effect based upon how far you move, making it massively inaccurate.
I think it would be impossible to fake.
In the real system the GNSS transmitter sends its own location and velocity so multiple receivers can handle stationary GNSS transmitters.
But, as you say a stationary GNSS transmitters might fake a moving if it knew the location of the receiver but it doesn't.

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sandokhan

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2019, 03:41:24 AM »
FExplanations?

In the heliocentrical version, GPS cannot be explained at all by the RE.

"Satellites transmit their signal to Earth and that’s that.  There’s no transmission back to the satellites, or between satellites, and none of their signals are made to loop the equator."

What, then, causes the DELAY of the signal?



Here is the equation for the rotational correction for GPS:

2Sω/c2

ω is the directed earth’s rotation rate, and S denotes the directed area of the triangle with vertices at the satellite, the receiver, and earth’s center.

However, this is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for the ether drift which delays the light signal.

Not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

In a rare admission, even N. Ashby states that the Coriolis force is responsible for the term commonly used in GPS technology which he ascribes to be the Sagnac effect:




https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1981228#msg1981228


The GPS satellites do not register/record the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT:

The Stanford Gravity Probe B (GPB) experiment was mentioned above. It involves a mechanical gyroscope, but I know of no physicist who would argue that a mechanical and an optical gyroscope would give different results. It is the intent of GPB to measure the Lense-Thirring frame dragging from earth rotation and the geodetic precession (spinorbit and space curvature effects). The former will amount to about 0.05 arc seconds per year and the latter to about 6.9 arc seconds per year. By contrast, if the gyroscope were affected by the orbital rotation, an additional anomalous precession of 1,296,000 arc seconds per orbit results. This insensitivity of mechanical gyroscopes to orbital rotation is clearly illustrated by the early TRANSIT (Navy navigation) satellites. During launch the satellites acquired a large spin, and the satellites themselves acted like large mechanical gyroscopes. In order to point the transmit antenna toward the earth, a boom with attached mass had to be deployed to cause gravity-gradient stabilization. But the satellite spin had to be removed before the gravity-gradient stabilization could occur—precisely because a gyroscope is not itself affected by the orbital rotation.

Ronald Hatch

Director of Navigation Systems Engineering and Principal and co-founder of NavCom Technology, Inc.
Institute of Navigation (ION), including Chair of the Satellite Division, President and Fellow.
https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/members/hatch/


https://web.archive.org/web/20170808104846/http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf

This is an IOP article.

The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.

He uses GPS and a link between Japan and the US to prove this.

In GPS the actual magnitude of the Sagnac correction
due to earth’s rotation depends on the positions of
satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m, as the
propagation time is about 0.1s and the linear speed due
to earth’s rotation is about 464 m/s at the equator. The
GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning.
Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly,
if the Sagnac correction due to earth’s rotation
is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun has a linear speed of
about 30 km/s which is about 100 times that of earth’s
rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be
entirely impossible if the omitted correction due to orbital
motion is really necessary.


In an intercontinental microwave link between Japan and
the USA via a geostationary satellite as relay, the influence
of earth’s rotation is also demonstrated in a high-precision
time comparison between the atomic clocks at two remote
ground stations.
In this transpacific-link experiment, a synchronization
error of as large as about 0.3 µs was observed unexpectedly.


Meanwhile, as in GPS, no effects of earth’s orbital motion
are reported in these links, although they would be
easier to observe if they are in existence. Thereby, it is evident
that the wave propagation in GPS or the intercontinental
microwave link depends on the earth’s rotation, but
is entirely independent of earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever. As a consequence, the propagation
mechanism in GPS or intercontinental link can be viewed
as classical in conjunction with an ECI frame, rather than
the ECEF or any other frame, being selected as the unique
propagation frame. In other words, the wave in GPS or the
intercontinental microwave link can be viewed as propagating
via a classical medium stationary in a geocentric
inertial frame.


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1982291#msg1982291


For the LISA satellite, the orbital Coriolis effect is 30 times larger than the rotational Coriolis effect:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1983786#msg1983786 (four consecutive messages)


Ruderfer experiment:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721


As such, modern science is making a last stand in order to explain the GPS/Ruderfer/Sagnac effects/experiments: a local ether theory named MLET (Modified Lorentz Ether Theory).

MLET (Modified Lorentz Ether Theory) is based on the Lorentz transformation (Lorentz factor/contraction), and thus, is equally invalid.

https://www.gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Research%20Papers-Relativity%20Theory/Download/7149


The colossal mistakes committed by Lorentz and Einstein in deriving the Lorentz transformation/factor:

http://relativityunraveled.net/chapter-4-the-michelson-morley-experiment/

http://relativityunraveled.net/chapter-5-the-lorentz-transformation/

http://relativityunraveled.net/chapter-1-introduction/

Dr. Hans Zweig, Stanford University: http://wiki.naturalphilosophy.org/wiki/hans-j-zweig/

Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2019, 03:42:57 AM »
In the Information Repository Jane describes how a non satellite version might work by delaying signals. Clearly this would not work as receivers receive from eg. 15 transmitters from all directions and receivers in different locations would not show the correct location.

Yup. Also, you could easily just go and find the transmitters. And you could show there were no transmitters up above in space.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

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JackBlack

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2019, 04:05:02 AM »
In the heliocentrical version, GPS cannot be explained at all by the RE.
RE explains it quite well.
You have satellites orbiting Earth which broadcast signals to Earth, with the delay between transmission and reception being used to calculate the distance and then the distance to multiple transmitters being used to determine the position.
HC vs GC doesn't matter.

What, then, causes the DELAY of the signal?
The signal starts in one location and travels to another.
It doesn't jump instantly from source to destination.

SAGNAC
If you want to discuss Sagnac, go to any of the multitude of threads you have already made and spouted your ignorant BS countless times before and had it refuted countless times before.
Stop just copying and pasting a bunch of stuff you either don't understand or are blatantly lying about.

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Slemon

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We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2019, 01:04:05 PM »
Meanwhile, if GPS transmitters do not transmit their true position and time the system will not work.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2019, 02:31:50 PM »

Since GPS does produce the place you are
, any FE solution must include some math. I doubt such a system is possible, Gauss's theorem says you can't project a curved surface onto a flat one without distorting the distances. Same problem as FE map.

All worship thy GPS  . . .

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JackBlack

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2019, 03:57:23 PM »
I'll skip your links to the irrational nonsense section as that just allows you to repeatedly post the same refuted nonsense without caring how accurate it is.

And as far as Inquisitive goes, the two separate thread they made and then immediately left on the topic:
With your links it sure doesn't seem like it.
With the first one you complained that it was in the wrong section and made it clear you weren't interested in debating it, and then proceeded to try and debate, with them continuing to post as well. So no immediately leaving the topic.
The second one is in AR and derails straight away with garbage.

Now care to explain how GPS can be faked, especially considering locations somewhat close together, without appealing to a completely ridiculous amount of transmitters?

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Username

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2019, 06:02:23 PM »
It works on a flat earth by the use of very accurate clocks.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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rabinoz

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2019, 09:28:09 PM »
It works on a flat earth by the use of very accurate clocks.
And where are the transmitters with these very accurate clocks?

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Macarios

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2019, 10:35:10 PM »
Quote
GPS satellites travel at approximately 8,700 mph (14,000 km/h) with respect to Earth.
This means time runs 7,200 nanoseconds per day slower for a satellite relative to us
on Earth as described by Special Relativity.
(from:http://www.physics.org/article-questions.asp?id=77)
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2019, 11:03:29 PM »
Quote
GPS satellites travel at approximately 8,700 mph (14,000 km/h) with respect to Earth.
This means time runs 7,200 nanoseconds per day slower for a satellite relative to us
on Earth
as described by Special Relativity.
(from:http://www.physics.org/article-questions.asp?id=77)

Your source says . . .

Quote
General Relativity says that the closer you are to a heavy mass, such as Earth, the slower time will move for you. This means that a clock on a satellite orbiting the Earth will run faster relative to one on the ground.

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Macarios

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2019, 11:12:27 PM »
Quote
GPS satellites travel at approximately 8,700 mph (14,000 km/h) with respect to Earth.
This means time runs 7,200 nanoseconds per day slower for a satellite relative to us
on Earth
as described by Special Relativity.
(from:http://www.physics.org/article-questions.asp?id=77)

Your source says . . .

Quote
General Relativity says that the closer you are to a heavy mass, such as Earth, the slower time will move for you. This means that a clock on a satellite orbiting the Earth will run faster relative to one on the ground.

Ok, farther from ground clock goes faster by 800 nanoseconds (General Relativity),
but because of speed it goes slower by 8,000 nanoseconds (Special Relativity), so
the total difference is 7,200 nanoseconds slower.

Or you have more precise numbers? :)
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2019, 11:39:14 PM »

. . . farther from ground clock goes faster by 800 nanoseconds

Exactly farther from the ground or about farther from the ground?



. . . but because of speed it goes slower by 8,000 nanoseconds

Oh, I get it now.

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JackBlack

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2019, 01:52:24 AM »
It works on a flat earth by the use of very accurate clocks.
Again, How?
The issue is how you fake it as if it was from satellites on a RE.

Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2019, 09:23:29 AM »
No comments from Jane on her impossible idea.

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Slemon

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2019, 01:42:44 PM »
No comments from Jane on her impossible idea.
Not my idea, it's a presentation of what FEers believe. Can you still not get your head around that? The compendium is not a presentation of my worldview. The world is round, but ignoring, misrepresenting, and just generally acting like you does nothing but convince them REers are idiots and liars.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2019, 02:00:03 PM »
No comments from Jane on her impossible idea.
Not my idea, it's a presentation of what FEers believe. Can you still not get your head around that? The compendium is not a presentation of my worldview. The world is round, but ignoring, misrepresenting, and just generally acting like you does nothing but convince them REers are idiots and liars.
Fine!  But it does have a number of flaws in it...

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JackBlack

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2019, 02:46:41 PM »
The world is round, but ignoring, misrepresenting, and just generally acting like you does nothing but convince them REers are idiots and liars.
You seem to have yourself and inquisitive confused.
What he has said here does not make REers look like idiots or liars.
The only misrepresentation from him seems to be treating it as your idea instead of some random FEers.

But all the FEers view that you present seems to be is that GPS is being faked, with no actual rational basis for how it is being faked.
Just like so much else from FEers it is a superficial view without any serious thought which cannot withstand any serious scrutiny.

As such, GPS is still a sound argument against the FE as they can't explain how it works.

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Slemon

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2019, 03:40:53 PM »
No comments from Jane on her impossible idea.
Not my idea, it's a presentation of what FEers believe. Can you still not get your head around that? The compendium is not a presentation of my worldview. The world is round, but ignoring, misrepresenting, and just generally acting like you does nothing but convince them REers are idiots and liars.
Fine!  But it does have a number of flaws in it...
And if you were physically capable of ever actually dealing with any post directed at you, maybe you could have a discussion on that one day, instead of starting a thread, ignoring the explanation, and posting in the repository again despite being right after being told that wasn't allowed.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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rabinoz

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2019, 03:56:34 PM »
And if you were physically capable of ever actually dealing with the topic and not attacking people this might be a far more pleasant place!

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Slemon

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2019, 04:23:13 PM »
And if you were physically capable of ever actually dealing with the topic and not attacking people this might be a far more pleasant place!
I always start off dealing with the topic. Takes two to change a discussion Rab. Look in a mirror.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2019, 04:50:12 PM »
No comments from Jane on her impossible idea.
Not my idea, it's a presentation of what FEers believe. Can you still not get your head around that? The compendium is not a presentation of my worldview. The world is round, but ignoring, misrepresenting, and just generally acting like you does nothing but convince them REers are idiots and liars.

And by you defending bad arguments to no end does nothing but empower and enable bad critical thinking and bad logic.

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rabinoz

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2019, 05:09:35 PM »
I always start off dealing with the topic. Takes two to change a discussion Rab. Look in a mirror.
Open your eyes! It's not just me.  Just look at others react to you too!

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: I researched how GPS works
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2019, 03:39:20 PM »
I always start off dealing with the topic. Takes two to change a discussion Rab. Look in a mirror.
Open your eyes! It's not just me.  Just look at others react to you too!

You blame Jane because you can't control yourself.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.