The Gift

Most of us are middle of the pack.  Most of us are going to die and be buried or put to the flame and even our grand children won't ever think of us.   The vast majority of us are going to be forgot about.  Political/military leaders are remembered but they are accidents of history more than anything else.    Those involved with ground breaking scientific discoveries are remembered.   But, so what?   No one really knows if the names attached to the discoveries are really the people who should be getting credit.    Plagiarism is more than a river in Egypt.  Science is about the daily grind of trial and error and no one person is all that important.

When I say gift I mean an individual has something going for them that adds up to more than hard work and application of intelligence.  Beauty and physical prowess are gifts but time takes them away from any who possess them. 

It takes more than luck, hard work and application to be a professional athlete.   The vast majority of us couldn't even come close to accomplishing what Babe Ruth or Michael Jordan have accomplished.   You can be smart and strong and work your butt off but it is highly doubtful that will get you into the record books.  In order to perform at that level one needs a gift.

Art is similar.  Anyone can go to a music school and develop mastery of their voice or an instrument.  But, it is doubtful they will stand out from the crowd.  They might make a good sideman.  There is more to being an artist than skill.   What is it?  I don't know.  I call it the gift. 

The advancement of science doesn't rely on gifted people.   Just people who like math and are willing to work.   

I said this before but I will repeat:  Had  Archimedes, Newton and Einstein not existed science and technology would still be exactly where they are at.    There were lots of people around at the same time who had similar ideas.   Scientists and mathematicians are always having symposiums and trading ideas.  It requires no gift what so ever to be a scientists. 

That's pretty false. The "gift" you talk about is needed in science too.

That's pretty false. The "gift" you talk about is needed in science too.

Nope.  Anyone who can balance a check book and is willing to work can be a scientist and they might just win a Nobel Prize.   So, I don't agree with you.

2centsworth,

Just a thought but maybe some of these topics can neatly fit into existing threads. You know, to reduce clutter.

2centsworth,

Just a thought but maybe some of these topics can neatly fit into existing threads. You know, to reduce clutter.

Perhaps! I advance a philosophy.   The rest of the boards look like they are for more technical and scientific fare.   I will go away if you want me to. 

I will go away if you want me to.

Wouldn't dream of it. Just asking that you consider if maybe a post wouldn't work inside an existing thread before creating a new one.

Let me translate:
Stop making so many threads. Make one with an ironic title about your musings, or I'll bam you.
Also I'm a retart.

Let me translate:
Stop making so many threads. Make one with an ironic title about your musings, or I'll bam you.
Also I'm a retart.

It's freezing out and my furnace is busted.  I can't go anywhere because I am snowed in.  I am just trying to pass a little time.   

Outside of being a method for the military to better target their ordnance the internet also is a mirror showing the human race what it looks like.  The view isn't pretty.

I thought this place might be different.    But, it's the same all over. 

Quote from: Pezevenk on January 28, 2019, 10:58:49 AM

That's pretty false. The "gift" you talk about is needed in science too.

Nope.  Anyone who can balance a check book and is willing to work can be a scientist and they might just win a Nobel Prize.   So, I don't agree with you.

That's nowhere close to being true. Winning a Nobel Prize isn't as simple as balancing a check book, and it's not just work that's needed. The most significant scientists had some extremely innovative insight and some very unique perspective that fundamentally changed the way scientists approach certain issues, and often openned up new fields of inquiry. It's very similar to creating a unique art work, and it's definitely not as simple as working hard. Lots of people work much harder than other scientists, and might even be smarter, and yet they never think of something really groundbreaking.

Quote from: 2centsworth on January 28, 2019, 11:04:28 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on January 28, 2019, 10:58:49 AM

That's pretty false. The "gift" you talk about is needed in science too.

Nope.  Anyone who can balance a check book and is willing to work can be a scientist and they might just win a Nobel Prize.   So, I don't agree with you.

That's nowhere close to being true. Winning a Nobel Prize isn't as simple as balancing a check book, and it's not just work that's needed. The most significant scientists had some extremely innovative insight and some very unique perspective that fundamentally changed the way scientists approach certain issues, and often openned up new fields of inquiry. It's very similar to creating a unique art work, and it's definitely not as simple as working hard. Lots of people work much harder than other scientists, and might even be smarter, and yet they never think of something really groundbreaking.

Obviously I don't agree with you.  I think science is a team effort and it takes no special gift to contribute.   There is more to being an artist than skill.   All that is involved in being a scientist is the daily grind of trial and error.   Scientists are a dime a dozen and there work is mundane.

A scientist can be lucky; it's called serendipity.   A scientist can be inspired.  If a scientist gets one inspiration during his life then he is doing pretty well.   Athletes can't count on luck.  Athletes rely on skill and to be one of the greats it is necessary that you are gifted well beyond the average in terms of speed, strength, stamina, coordination and mental focus as well as above average intelligence.  Artists - the great ones - don't need inspiration because they are the embodiment of inspiration; because it's their gift.   

a scientist just needs to work hard and hopefully get lucky or inspired.  It could happen to anyone.

I predict that Elvis Presley will be more well and fondly remembered than any scientific figure from history.  Elvis was a rare bird.

Obviously I don't agree with you.  I think science is a team effort and it takes no special gift to contribute.

It is a team effort in that you build on what others have done before, but it does take something special to contribute, and most have no groundbreaking contributions.

There is more to being an artist than skill.

Only if you want to be a good artist.
 

All that is involved in being a scientist is the daily grind of trial and error.

That's not true at all.

Scientists are a dime a dozen and there work is mundane.

Same goes for most artists.

A scientist can be lucky; it's called serendipity.   A scientist can be inspired.  If a scientist gets one inspiration during his life then he is doing pretty well.   Athletes can't count on luck.  Athletes rely on skill and to be one of the greats it is necessary that you are gifted well beyond the average in terms of speed, strength, stamina, coordination and mental focus as well as above average intelligence.

Almost no scientist is just "lucky", the rest (meaning mental focus, skill, etc.) are also required to make a significant impact.

Artists - the great ones - don't need inspiration because they are the embodiment of inspiration; because it's their gift.

That's also not true.   

a scientist just needs to work hard and hopefully get lucky or inspired.  It could happen to anyone.

It couldn't, and it doesn't.

I predict that Elvis Presley will be more well and fondly remembered than any scientific figure from history.  Elvis was a rare bird.

He is already less fondly remembered than lots of scientists. It was Elvis who was lucky. He happened to have a good voice and a nice face and lots of luck at the appropriate time.

A scientist can be lucky; it's called serendipity.   A scientist can be inspired.  If a scientist gets one inspiration during his life then he is doing pretty well.   Athletes can't count on luck.  Athletes rely on skill and to be one of the greats it is necessary that you are gifted well beyond the average in terms of speed, strength, stamina, coordination and mental focus as well as above average intelligence.  Artists - the great ones - don't need inspiration because they are the embodiment of inspiration; because it's their gift.   

a scientist just needs to work hard and hopefully get lucky or inspired.  It could happen to anyone.

I predict that Elvis Presley will be more well and fondly remembered than any scientific figure from history.  Elvis was a rare bird.

Dude, scientists gave you medicines, vaccines, they predict your weather, tell you what is in the food you eat, allow you to communicate with other people around the world through your computer and even your ability to keep warm in winter using a furnace has science.

I cant believe anyone out there has so many screws loose with such a disdain for science in any form and not be a troll.

A scientist can be lucky; it's called serendipity.

It is said that luck favors the well-prepared. And scientists have certainly done a lot of preparing, in terms of education and critical thinking. Having an intuition of what questions to ask, and how to conduct a trial with those questions in mind, might seem like a lot of luck. But it's controlled chaos more than anything else. Even if just loosely controlled at times.

Sorry about your furnace. That truly sucks, especially with the weather the way it is supposed to be. If you make your way to Northeastern South Canada to escape, I hope you let me know. Did you get it working yet?

Quote from: 2centsworth on January 28, 2019, 03:22:25 PM

A scientist can be lucky; it's called serendipity.   A scientist can be inspired.  If a scientist gets one inspiration during his life then he is doing pretty well.   Athletes can't count on luck.  Athletes rely on skill and to be one of the greats it is necessary that you are gifted well beyond the average in terms of speed, strength, stamina, coordination and mental focus as well as above average intelligence.  Artists - the great ones - don't need inspiration because they are the embodiment of inspiration; because it's their gift.   

a scientist just needs to work hard and hopefully get lucky or inspired.  It could happen to anyone.

I predict that Elvis Presley will be more well and fondly remembered than any scientific figure from history.  Elvis was a rare bird.

Dude, scientists gave you medicines, vaccines, they predict your weather, tell you what is in the food you eat, allow you to communicate with other people around the world through your computer and even your ability to keep warm in winter using a furnace has science.

I cant believe anyone out there has so many screws loose with such a disdain for science in any form and not be a troll.

So, what?  Are you saying there were no happy and healthy people before the advent of modern science?

Science also produces a society that produces copious amounts of pollution, weapons of mass destruction, car accidents, cancer, alcoholism, depression and anxiety.I don't know what it's like where you are but here the USA psychologists, psychiatrists and counselors charging 200 dollars an hour are not going broke.  Business is booming for them.

 I live in Michigan and we have more surface fresh water than anywhere else on the world.   Our waters are polluted and I wouldn't ever eat a fish that I caught here.  This year warnings came out about the white tailed deer as many of them aren't fit to eat due to pollution.   The auto and chemical companies; modern technology have ruined this state.  Detroit, once maybe the most prosperous city in the world is a mess, because of science.  Flint, the birthplace of General Motors is even worse.

There was effective medicine before science.  Hippocrates is probably the most famous physician that ever lived
out side of Christ and he lived 2400 yrs ago.

Science is as much of a curse as it is a blessing.  I don't take exception with science so much as scientism.  I think our society has a messed up sense of priorities.

I cant believe anyone out there has so many screws loose with such a disdain for science in any form and not be a troll.

Yeah, I'm starting to think he's just a troll.

Quote from: 2centsworth on January 28, 2019, 03:22:25 PM

A scientist can be lucky; it's called serendipity.

It is said that luck favors the well-prepared. And scientists have certainly done a lot of preparing, in terms of education and critical thinking. Having an intuition of what questions to ask, and how to conduct a trial with those questions in mind, might seem like a lot of luck. But it's controlled chaos more than anything else. Even if just loosely controlled at times.

Sorry about your furnace. That truly sucks, especially with the weather the way it is supposed to be. If you make your way to Northeastern South Canada to escape, I hope you let me know. Did you get it working yet?

In your comment about luck one could say the same thing about successful businessmen.  I don't consider successful businessmen as being gifted.

Thank you for your thoughtful comment on my furnace problem.  It's still not fixed.  I need a vent motor rebuilt.   Big wind coming today.

Quote from: 2centsworth on January 28, 2019, 03:06:50 PM

Obviously I don't agree with you.  I think science is a team effort and it takes no special gift to contribute.

It is a team effort in that you build on what others have done before, but it does take something special to contribute, and most have no groundbreaking contributions.

Quote

There is more to being an artist than skill.

Only if you want to be a good artist.
 

Quote

All that is involved in being a scientist is the daily grind of trial and error.

That's not true at all.

Quote

Scientists are a dime a dozen and there work is mundane.

Same goes for most artists.

Quote from: 2centsworth on January 28, 2019, 03:22:25 PM

A scientist can be lucky; it's called serendipity.   A scientist can be inspired.  If a scientist gets one inspiration during his life then he is doing pretty well.   Athletes can't count on luck.  Athletes rely on skill and to be one of the greats it is necessary that you are gifted well beyond the average in terms of speed, strength, stamina, coordination and mental focus as well as above average intelligence.

Almost no scientist is just "lucky", the rest (meaning mental focus, skill, etc.) are also required to make a significant impact.

Quote

Artists - the great ones - don't need inspiration because they are the embodiment of inspiration; because it's their gift.

That's also not true.   

Quote

a scientist just needs to work hard and hopefully get lucky or inspired.  It could happen to anyone.

It couldn't, and it doesn't.

Quote

I predict that Elvis Presley will be more well and fondly remembered than any scientific figure from history.  Elvis was a rare bird.

He is already less fondly remembered than lots of scientists. It was Elvis who was lucky. He happened to have a good voice and a nice face and lots of luck at the appropriate time.

I forgot to mention that is also takes great courage to be an athlete.

Don't ever go to Memphis and talk down Elvis Presley.  For your own sake.

I do not agree.   Science is about the daily grind of trial and error.  Sometimes one will get lucky and it takes some brains to know you are lucky but that is not a gift.   We all have aptitudes and intellect.   Sometimes they will get inspired but not that many people and not all that often.  Inspiration can happen to anybody.  It does take a brain to recognize that but not anything I would call a gift.

Newton said that scientific discoveries are like finding shiny pebbles on a beach.  There is a lot of people on that beach looking for these shiny pebbles and every once in a while one of these beach combers gets lucky.  Not a gift.  I reiterate:  Anybody who can balance a check book and is willing to work can be a scientist and they might even win a Nobel prize if they get lucky or have a timely inspiration.  Even if Archimedes, Newton and Einstein had not existed, science and technology would be at the same place. (I think Einstein is a media hype.)

Personally, I think science has gone as far as it can and the world is about ready to hit the reset button.  I hope I am wrong.

Quote from: Shifter on January 28, 2019, 04:19:03 PM

I cant believe anyone out there has so many screws loose with such a disdain for science in any form and not be a troll.

Yeah, I'm starting to think he's just a troll.

I'm glad to hear you are starting to think.

I forgot to mention that is also takes great courage to be an athlete.

Eh.

Don't ever go to Memphis and talk down Elvis Presley.  For your own sake.

I'm not planning to go to Memphis but eh.

I do not agree.   Science is about the daily grind of trial and error.

You can keep saying that but it's not true. Science is ALSO about the "daily grind of trial and error", but that's not how the groundbreaking developments happen.

It does take a brain to recognize that but not anything I would call a gift.

I don't think a "gift" exists in general so it doesn't really matter if you would call that a "gift".

I reiterate:  Anybody who can balance a check book and is willing to work can be a scientist and they might even win a Nobel prize if they get lucky or have a timely inspiration.

You can reiterate as many times as you want, it's not true.

Even if Archimedes, Newton and Einstein had not existed, science and technology would be at the same place.

That's also wrong. These people, and especially Newton and Einstein, introduced new paradigms, new ways of thinking about science, which radically changed the types of knowledge we look for and the way we think about them. There is this misconception that science is just finding stuff that's already there, but epistemology demonstrated ages ago that that's the wrong way to view it.

[qute]Personally, I think science has gone as far as it can and the world is about ready to hit the reset button.  I hope I am wrong.
[/quote]
You have no reason to think that.

Science is about the daily grind of trial and air more than anything else.   If Newton, Einstein and Archimedes, et al had not existed science and technology would be at the same point as where they are.   Trial and error is exactly how ground breaking science happens.   I will keep repeating that just as you keep repeating your points.  Lots of people have introduced new paradigms. Most never hear about them because they aren't promoted like entertainers.

Science has gone as far as it can.  I have lots of reasons to think that.  In fact, I think the world is starting to go backwards.

There is nothing science can give us that is more important than clean water and clean air.

Science is about the daily grind of trial and air more than anything else.

To an extent everything is like that, including sports and art. When you're talking about groundbreaking stuff, it's much more than that.

If Newton, Einstein and Archimedes, et al had not existed science and technology would be at the same point as where they are.   Trial and error is exactly how ground breaking science happens.   I will keep repeating that just as you keep repeating your points.

You're not backing them up. You just say that that's how it is, but you never made an argument to explain why you think that. I don't think you understand very well how science or art or sports work.

Lots of people have introduced new paradigms. Most never hear about them because they aren't promoted like entertainers.

So? That's irrelevant. Some paradigms are more useful and significant than others.

Science has gone as far as it can.  I have lots of reasons to think that.  In fact, I think the world is starting to go backwards.

You never mentioned any.

There is nothing science can give us that is more important than clean water and clean air.

Im not sure what you mean by that.

If Newton, Einstein and Archimedes, et al had not existed science and technology would be at the same point as where they are.   Trial and error is exactly how ground breaking science happens.   I will keep repeating that just as you keep repeating your points.

You're not backing them up. You just say that that's how it is, but you never made an argument to explain why you think that. I don't think you understand very well how science or art or sports work.

Lots of people have introduced new paradigms. Most never hear about them because they aren't promoted like entertainers.

So? That's irrelevant. Some paradigms are more useful and significant than others.

Science has gone as far as it can.  I have lots of reasons to think that.  In fact, I think the world is starting to go backwards.

You never mentioned any.

There is nothing science can give us that is more important than clean water and clean air.

Im not sure what you mean by that.
[/quote]

Newton, Einstein and Archimedes are not special.  There were many who existed around their time who had similar if not identical ideas.  We don't even know if they were the original authors of their findings.  Liebnitz was similar to Newton, Einstein had Hilbert, Poincaret, Planck and a lot more.  Brains are cheap.

Science is going nowhere these days:  Evolution (pure sophistry!) is going nowhere.   Cure for cancer?  Your chances of dying from cancer are greater than ever.  Gnome research:  a bunch of hacks trying to explain the ineffable.  Manned space travel?  keep dreaming!  Renewable clean energy?  More dreaming.    Science is going nowhere.  Evolution, relativity and quantum mechanics?  Little to no practical value at all.  ( I think there is some practical value to quantum mechanics as it makes calculating energies of sub atomic particle more accurate so it does have some use in chemistry but that is about it.)

Courage is more important than brains and kindness is more important than courage.  Practically any tool can made into a weapon and practically any medicine can be used as a poison.  I said this before:  Civilization does allow for more creativity but the price is severe emotional and mental problems that our ancestors simply didn't have to deal with.

My statement about clean air and water is plain English I don't see what there is about it that is so confusing.  People can thrive and be healthy as long as they can hunt and fish where the air and water are clean.   Science and high technology have not helped the environment; quite the opposite.

Michael Jordan has a brilliant mind and is driven by an aggressive and focused temperament.  It is possible that he could get a Nobel Prize if he so desired.  I doubt there is any Nobel scientists that do so well at basketball.  Jordan has a gift.  Scientific Nobel Laureates do not.

Science can also be used to mess with people's heads in the same manner the supernatural.  There is such a thing as Scientism and technocratic dogma.

Newton, Einstein and Archimedes are not special.

That's plain wrong.

Liebnitz was similar to Newton

It's only debated which one came up with calculus first. Newton's laws were his.

Einstein had Hilbert, Poincaret, Planck and a lot more.  Brains are cheap.

Einstein combined a lot of knowledge of his time into something unique. Btw do you want to talk about how many people Elvis ripped off?

Science is going nowhere these days:  Evolution (pure sophistry!) is going nowhere.

Where exactly do you want evolution to go?

Cure for cancer?  Your chances of dying from cancer are greater than ever.

Did you stop to consider that maybe a big part of it is because so many other illnesses have been cured by science, leaving cancer to be one of the few that still lead to deaths? Did you consider that although no real cure exists, treatment has become much, much better than it was?

Gnome research:  a bunch of hacks trying to explain the ineffable.

Lol what's "gnome research"?

Manned space travel?  keep dreaming!

Manned space travel is not as important as other forms of space travel right now, but anyways, the lack of it is mainly due to a lack of funding, not a lack of research.

Renewable clean energy?  More dreaming.

? You know renewable clean energy exists, right?

Evolution, relativity and quantum mechanics?  Little to no practical value at all.

QM has practical value. Same with some aspects of relativity. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on evolution.

My statement about clean air and water is plain English I don't see what there is about it that is so confusing.  People can thrive and be healthy as long as they can hunt and fish where the air and water are clean.

No they can't. It's not that simple. The fact that it's not that simple is exactly what made them move away from that.

Michael Jordan has a brilliant mind and is driven by an aggressive and focused temperament.  It is possible that he could get a Nobel Prize if he so desired.

Lol suuure.

Elvis didn't even write his own songs or music.  Yet the singer and dancer was somehow more important than Einstein.  OK.

Science has gone as far as it can.

Troll confirmed

Otherwise, ROFL

Dude you have no idea about science and how far it will bring us.

In past times makind looked to the stars to determine their future. In the future, it is mankind that will determine the future of the stars. You're not going to reach a 'Type V' without 'sciencing the shit' out of things.

And if it's clean air and pure water you're after, science can help with that too 

Elvis didn't even write his own songs or music.  Yet the singer and dancer was somehow more important than Einstein.  OK.

Elvis was real.  Not some media hype like the hack Einstein.  People all over the world cried when Elvis died.  I doubt anybody cried over the demise of Albert.  I doubt his children felt any grief at his passing.

Quote from: Shifter on January 29, 2019, 12:50:18 PM

Quote from: 2centsworth on January 29, 2019, 04:35:51 AM

Science has gone as far as it can.

Troll confirmed

Otherwise, ROFL


Dude you have no idea about science and how far it will bring us.

In past times makind looked to the stars to determine their future. In the future, it is mankind that will determine the future of the stars. You're not going to reach a 'Type V' without 'sciencing the shit' out of things.

And if it's clean air and pure water you're after, science can help with that too 

Yes!   You have confirmed yourself as a troll.  Most on these boards already knew this.

Something for you to think about:  Besides science you know what else has helped a lot of people?  Organized crime.   Al Capone, Pablo Escobar, El Chapo et aland a lot of others could be quite generous.   Jobs, charity,  helping the working man.   Capone financed soup kitchens and fed hungry indigents.  Organized crime has done a lot for society.

Quote from: 2centsworth on January 29, 2019, 06:06:05 AM

Newton, Einstein and Archimedes are not special.

That's plain wrong.

 Btw do you want to talk about how many people Elvis ripped off?

They can't. It's not that simple. The fact that it's not that simple is exactly what made them move away from that.

Who did Elvis rip off?  I have read over 1/2 dozen books on the guy by people who knew him and nobody ever called him a rip off.  People he fired loved him.  His ex wife loved him.  His step family loved him.   Most if not all of his girlfriends loved him.  His competitors in the music business loved him.   Only a jealous and envious person would say what you said.   

Type Einstein in your search engine and you will find Einstein had a lot of detractors including Henry Ford, Thomas Edison and Tesla.  His ideas are worthless and lack any practical application what so ever.  If you want to worship a bum that's your business.

The primitives did not "move away from that" as you say.  They were forced to move away at the barrel of a gun.   The only reason civilization exists is because of agriculture.  The only reason agriculture exists is because people discovered they need copious amounts of grain, potatoes and fruits to make alcohol beverages.   Thanks to drunks we have civilization.    Some of these primitive societies lasted 10's of thousands of years! according to modern scientific consensus.