If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?

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JackBlack

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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2018, 12:34:03 PM »
Or you're just ignoring how I've already answered your question, and not only that referenced the last time I answered that question and you ignored it.

Jesus christ this was an absolute waste of time wasn't it?
Yes, it was an absolute waste of time as you are completely unwillingly to answer simple questions and love attacking arguments without any sound reason to attack it.

You didn't answer my question. You just said that it has the sun circling above Earth. You gave no indication of distance, nor how that distance is determined.

So I ask again, how far away are the planets in the bendly light FE models?
Remember, these are the models made to try and avoid the problems of a close sun/close stars.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #121 on: November 25, 2018, 12:55:16 PM »
You didn't answer my question. You just said that it has the sun circling above Earth. You gave no indication of distance, nor how that distance is determined.
Sorry, what? I pointed out that in every FE model the Sun has to be significantly smaller than the Earth, and pointed out that, you know, transits happen, and you can't make the leap from that to FET requiring planets to be small?
Planets<Sun<Earth.

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So I ask again, how far away are the planets in the bendly light FE models?
Remember, these are the models made to try and avoid the problems of a close sun/close stars.
Stop ignoring me. Doesn't matter. Think about what would be needed for the Sun to be even the size of the Earth under FET, never mind the fact it would need to be several orders of magnitude larger for planets to be comparable to the Earth. The tiniest wobble would give a more extreme orbit than anything observed. There is not a single FE model where the Sun is anywhere close to the Earth in size, there are models where it's larger than in other models, but that's all you're going to get. Given that you've neglected to even mention this twice now I fully expect you to just ignore it again, but there you go.
And, appealing to observations just like you, it's pretty clear the planets aren't orders of magnitude bigger than the Sun; even without transits you have the same issues of scale.

The only model that could even conceivably be made to work with a large Sun is the non-Euclidean, but if you go that route it's said that the Earth would look like a ball from high altitude anyway so you could easily translate that to the other bodies being the same class of entity as the Earth and all actually being flat in non-Euclidean space. So if you want me to concede a model where this'd work, it'd be that one, but the argument still doesn't hold at all.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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JackBlack

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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #122 on: November 25, 2018, 02:07:14 PM »
Sorry, what? I pointed out that in every FE model the Sun has to be significantly smaller than the Earth
No, you asserted it. But we aren't up to size yet, we are still on distance.
You are yet to say how far away the planets are in bendy light FE.

Stop ignoring me.
You have been ignoring me this entire thread.
You have repeatedly misrepresenting my argument.

Think about what would be needed for the Sun to be even the size of the Earth under FET, never mind the fact it would need to be several orders of magnitude larger for planets to be comparable to the Earth. The tiniest wobble would give a more extreme orbit than anything observed.
Then it would need to be far away, and with bendy light, might match what is observed.
Who says there is wobble?
How would this wobble manifest? Is that way it goes from circling above the tropic of cancer to circling above the tropic of cancer? That seems like a pretty big change, but maybe a small wobble with bendly light can explain that.

So again, how far away are the planets in the bendy light FE model?
Until you can provide an actual answer with a justification, I have no reason to just blindly accept that all currently used FE models have close tiny objects in the sky.

Based upon that, I see no reason why I shouldn't just ignore how far away the planets are in the FE models, accepting that that would mean this stage of the argument would already refute those models and instead go on to make a more general argument.

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Slemon

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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #123 on: November 25, 2018, 02:16:40 PM »
Stop ignoring me.
Cutting out my explanations aren't going to make me forget I gave them.

I don't care how far away the planets are, remember? That doesn't matter, what matters is their size.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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JackBlack

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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #124 on: November 25, 2018, 03:26:23 PM »
I don't care how far away the planets are, remember? That doesn't matter, what matters is their size.
Again, if you don't care you can't claim the argument refutes FE when it appeals to that and you repeatedly focus on that.

Even if you only want to focus on size, how large is the sun in the bendy light model? How do you determine that?
So far all I have seen is you repeatedly assert that they are tiny. No justification for why.
The simplest determining is based upon distance and angular size, which then requires knowing how far away they are.

Even if you want to assert that they are small compared to Earth, they are still massive compared to things we are used to dealing with, and we can observe nothing larger than them other than Earth, so Earth can still fall into the same category of very large objects.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #125 on: November 25, 2018, 04:35:48 PM »
So far all I have seen is you repeatedly assert that they are tiny.
Well that's not my problem given that I've pointed out what it is the models actually say and what that means they'd require.

When you stumble upon an FE model that posits the Sun as a giant ball that either only emits a pinprick of light, or all that light gets condensed into one tiny stream, and that it wobbles so very slightly so that said light remains bound on the surface of a tiny disc orders of magnitude smaller and so very far away, I'll concede. Until then you are being wilfully obstinate and ignorant.


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]Even if you want to assert that they are small compared to Earth, they are still massive compared to things we are used to dealing with, and we can observe nothing larger than them other than Earth, so Earth can still fall into the same category of very large objects.

Stars are bigger. Why aren't we on fire? The moment you concede that there are multiple entries in the category, especially given our relatively small sample size, is the moment this already-weak argument becomes even worse. You've no reason to suppose the Earth is of the same category when the Sun happily exists between the Earth and planets, and we're plainly not on something comparable.
And you're back to ignoring the fact this argument can be replaced with "What caused the Earth's creation?" I see. Didn't you say I was the one that couldn't handle multiple points?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2018, 04:39:29 PM »
So far all I have seen is you repeatedly assert that they are tiny.
Well that's not my problem given that I've pointed out what it is the models actually say and what that means they'd require.

When you stumble upon an FE model that posits the Sun as a giant ball that either only emits a pinprick of light, or all that light gets condensed into one tiny stream, and that it wobbles so very slightly so that said light remains bound on the surface of a tiny disc orders of magnitude smaller and so very far away, I'll concede. Until then you are being wilfully obstinate and ignorant.


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]Even if you want to assert that they are small compared to Earth, they are still massive compared to things we are used to dealing with, and we can observe nothing larger than them other than Earth, so Earth can still fall into the same category of very large objects.

Stars are bigger. Why aren't we on fire? The moment you concede that there are multiple entries in the category, especially given our relatively small sample size, is the moment this already-weak argument becomes even worse. You've no reason to suppose the Earth is of the same category when the Sun happily exists between the Earth and planets, and we're plainly not on something comparable.
And you're back to ignoring the fact this argument can be replaced with "What caused the Earth's creation?" I see. Didn't you say I was the one that couldn't handle multiple points?

Your argument assumes the Earth is flat.  How do you know the Sun is between the Earth and the other planets?

Weren't you just arguing that JB's argument can't assume a shape and must be neutral or it's invalid?
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

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rabinoz

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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #127 on: November 25, 2018, 06:18:33 PM »
Your argument assumes the Earth is flat.  How do you know the Sun is between the Earth and the other planets?

Weren't you just arguing that JB's argument can't assume a shape and must be neutral or it's invalid?
You ask, "How do you know the Sun is between the Earth and the other planets?" Well there are ancient flat-earth models where the the Sun is not between the Earth and the other planets.

Jane insists that we look at all possible flat-earth models so why restrict the discussion to the flat-earth models postulated since the 1850s?
There were many much older ones that "worked" far better except for . . . . . . (I'll let your work that  out).

Before the Globe was accepted the Sumerians, Babylonians, Greeks and Chinese all had their flat-earth models that differed markedly from any modern flat-earth models.
Gotham is so fond of his claim that the flat-earth has a far longer history than the Globe and he is probably correct.

You didn't answer my question. You just said that it has the sun circling above Earth. You gave no indication of distance, nor how that distance is determined.
Sorry, what? I pointed out that in every FE model the Sun has to be significantly smaller than the Earth, and pointed out that, you know, transits happen, and you can't make the leap from that to FET requiring planets to be small?
Planets<Sun<Earth.
You say that you "pointed out that in every FE model . . . " but don't you mean "every modern FE model" because the ancient flat earth models did not have a close sun as in the modern FE models.

Now while what I present here does not show a sun larger than the earth it does show that these early flat earthers believed in a sun much more distant, relative to the size of the earth that modern flat-earth models.
 
And they believed that the sun orbited under and over the earth readily explaining the rising and setting of celestial objects that everybody sees.

I can find little detail on the Babylonian universe but Anaximander was a very early Greek who lived before the Globe was introduced.
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Anaximander (c. 610—546 B.C.E.)
Anaximander was the author of the first surviving lines of Western philosophy. He speculated and argued about "the Boundless" as the origin of all that is. He also worked on the fields of what we now call geography and biology.
Read the details at IEP, Anaximander
This is his universe:

The radial distances are in earth diameters but not knowing his earth diameter his distances and sizes cannot readily be determined.

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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #128 on: November 25, 2018, 07:35:46 PM »
Well that's not my problem given that I've pointed out what it is the models actually say and what that means they'd require.
I have seen no statement on that from the bendy light FE community.
So you are just grouping them all together.
Until I see a statement from them with some semblance of reason backing it up, I will continue to see your argument as fundamentally flawed and only valid against specific FE models.

Stars are bigger. Why aren't we on fire?
Do FEers even have the sun as fire? What about the moon? That is typically stated to be quite comparable in size to the sun.
Stop using RE when discussing FE models.

The moment you concede that there are multiple entries in the category, especially given our relatively small sample size, is the moment this already-weak argument becomes even worse.
No it doesn't.
There are some properties these entities have in common, and some they don't.
It would be illogical to assume Earth shares the properties they don't have in common.
It is logical to assume Earth shared the properties they have in common.

You've no reason to suppose the Earth is of the same category when the Sun happily exists between the Earth and planets
What FE model has the sun between Earth and the planets?
The standard FE model has them all basically the same height and observations clearly indicate that at least some of the planets are between Earth and the sun, at least some of the time.

And you're back to ignoring the fact this argument can be replaced with "What caused the Earth's creation?" I see. Didn't you say I was the one that couldn't handle multiple points?
Yes, so diverting to other points would just give you an excuse for a distraction. Especially when you can't resist insulting people.
I'm not ignoring anything.

Now again, how far away and how large are the planets in the bendy light FE?

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #129 on: November 26, 2018, 02:20:55 AM »
Your argument assumes the Earth is flat.  How do you know the Sun is between the Earth and the other planets?

Weren't you just arguing that JB's argument can't assume a shape and must be neutral or it's invalid?
Context. He's asking about a specific model, of course I'm answering with respect to that specific model.

And either way he still wants the argument to apply to FET. So yes, I've always maintained that the properties of what the argument is being applied to should be justifiable to bring up, otherwise you might as well refute RET by appealing to UA.

I have seen no statement on that from the bendy light FE community.
You didn't see it the first two times I brought it up so frankly I have no reason to trust your skills of observation. The situation you require is fundamentally absurd no matter the model, it bears no resemblance to what anyone believes, and if you believe that's not the case how about you try finding someone that believes it? It should not be up to me to make your argument for you.

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Stars are bigger. Why aren't we on fire?
Do FEers even have the sun as fire?
And you accused me of only caring about semantics? Doesn't matter whether we're on fire, that's what's called flippant phrasing, fact is stars are going to be significantly brighter and hotter than the Earth. But no, acknowledging that would require you to care about logic rather than point-scoring.

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The moment you concede that there are multiple entries in the category, especially given our relatively small sample size, is the moment this already-weak argument becomes even worse.
No it doesn't.
There are some properties these entities have in common, and some they don't.
It would be illogical to assume Earth shares the properties they don't have in common.
It is logical to assume Earth shared the properties they have in common.
"We don't share those major defining traits, but we have to share that one instead despite not sharing a whole host more!" Congrats, you just made it even more circular. Can you give me even one instance where that kind of logic is ever used?

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You've no reason to suppose the Earth is of the same category when the Sun happily exists between the Earth and planets
What FE model has the sun between Earth and the planets?
...Stop taking everything literally. Talking about categories. Things are not physically sorted into categories. The Sun gets in the way of trying to sort the Earth and planets into categories. Basic comprehension, maybe instead of assuming "Oh, she said it, it must be wrong!" try thinking.

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Now again, how far away and how large are the planets in the bendy light FE?
So when you don't like the answer you just plug your ears? Ok.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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JackBlack

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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #130 on: November 26, 2018, 02:45:53 AM »
Context. He's asking about a specific model, of course I'm answering with respect to that specific model.
I'm primarily focusing on FE in general, and using a specific model to show problems with your argument.
But what FE model has the sun between Earth and the planets rather than among them?

And either way he still wants the argument to apply to FET. So yes, I've always maintained that the properties of what the argument is being applied to should be justifiable to bring up, otherwise you might as well refute RET by appealing to UA.

You didn't see it the first two times I brought it up so frankly I have no reason to trust your skills of observation.
Was that because you didn't bring it up?
Instead you dismissed it saying you don't care then just asserted that "under FE, blah blah blah"?

It is a very simple question, yet rather than answer it you keep up with these pathetic distractions?
Why not just admit your argument was flawed and move on?

The situation you require is fundamentally absurd no matter the model, it bears no resemblance to what anyone believes
You are yet to show this to be the case, and I know just how much FEers love moving goalpoasts. You keep appealing to a FE with close small planets, yet bendy light FE was set up to avoid the problems with close small celestial objects.
It shouldn't be surprising that I'm not accepting your baseless claims regarding all FE and what all FEers believe.
Who appointed you dictator of FEers to decide what they believe?

And you accused me of only caring about semantics? Doesn't matter whether we're on fire, that's what's called flippant phrasing, fact is stars are going to be significantly brighter and hotter than the Earth. But no, acknowledging that would require you to care about logic rather than point-scoring.
Funny accusation coming from someone throwing logic out the window and who only cares about point scoring.
Again, there is no clear consensus on what the sun is under FE. So even if you were to assume Earth is like the sun in that regard there is no reason to think the sun would be hotter than Earth.

"We don't share those major defining traits, but we have to share that one instead despite not sharing a whole host more!" Congrats, you just made it even more circular.
No, that would be you making it even more circular, setting up yet another pathetic strawman so you can pretend you are the best person in the world. It is truly pathetic.
As a reminder, these objects have multiple traits. Some of these traits are in common with all the objects. Some are not. I'm suggesting the shared traits are shared by Earth.

...Stop taking everything literally. Talking about categories. Things are not physically sorted into categories. The Sun gets in the way of trying to sort the Earth and planets into categories. Basic comprehension, maybe instead of assuming "Oh, she said it, it must be wrong!" try thinking.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice. You seem to think everything I say is wrong, yet still claim to be in agreement.
What you are saying is like claiming 0 means you can't class the integers as integers, because 0 is special.
2 things in the same category don't need to be exactly the same. There can be variation in a category.

So when you don't like the answer you just plug your ears? Ok.
No when you seem to need to repeatedly avoid a very simple question to avoid admitting the massive holes in your claims I will continue to ask it. So again:
How far away and how large are the planets in the bendy light FE model?

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #131 on: November 26, 2018, 03:25:37 AM »
You are yet to show this to be the case, and I know just how much FEers love moving goalpoasts. You keep appealing to a FE with close small planets, yet bendy light FE was set up to avoid the problems with close small celestial objects.
It shouldn't be surprising that I'm not accepting your baseless claims regarding all FE and what all FEers believe.
Who appointed you dictator of FEers to decide what they believe?
No one, I just take the radical step of reading their posts rather than deciding to look for the worst possible interpretation, as you did several times over with your last post in this thread alone. 'Bendy light' was set up to answer a few specific questions that RET addresses by having celestial objects a long way away, it is not baseless to say that there is no FE model (with the possible exception of the non-Euclidean, as I've mentioned) features the Sun being even the same size as the Earth, let alone orders of magnitude larger.
If you disagree prove it. Otherwise you're just basing all of this on something you can't even show exists.

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Again, there is no clear consensus on what the sun is under FE. So even if you were to assume Earth is like the sun in that regard there is no reason to think the sun would be hotter than Earth.
Funny how this works isn't it? You rely on being able to make predictions based on observation to say things about FET, but the moment you realise those observations aren't in line with what you need them to be, you resort to "Oh, but how can we really know anything under FET it's all so wrong and I'm so superior ha ha haa." If you want to go that route then I reject your observations showing that the other planets are round, how can we really know that's the case, could just be some other phenomenon at work.
Why not? Makes about as much sense as your Sun larger than the Earth yet still circling above it, Sun no warmer than the Earth...

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No when you seem to need to repeatedly avoid a very simple question to avoid admitting the massive holes in your claims I will continue to ask it. So again:
How far away and how large are the planets in the bendy light FE model?
Don't care. Again. All I care about is the fact the Sun, and so planets, are smaller than the Earth. That's what matters. Instead of trying to distract from that point with blatant lie after blatant lie, how about you accept the point that we agreed, that you have separate arguments that work independently of this mess, and you just use them instead of trying to evade the fact that this argument died years ao?

I've answered your question. The fact the answer refutes your point is your problem, not mine.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #132 on: November 26, 2018, 05:47:31 AM »
A question for those that don't accept the heliocentric model.

Presumably most believe that the planets orbit Earth? If so what do they believe causes the periodic retrograde motion of the night time planets, which are further than the sun in the heliocentric model?

This retrograde motion isn't seen with the two planets, Mercury and Venus, which are also always observed when close to the sun's position and never in the middle of the night. They are deemed to be closer to the sun than Earth in the heliocentric model.

All these observations fit very well with the heliocentric model, is there a geocentric model which fits these basic observations just as well?

Apologies if this has been answered before.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #133 on: November 26, 2018, 06:06:33 AM »
A question for those that don't accept the heliocentric model.

Presumably most believe that the planets orbit Earth? If so what do they believe causes the periodic retrograde motion of the night time planets, which are further than the sun in the heliocentric model?

This retrograde motion isn't seen with the two planets, Mercury and Venus, which are also always observed when close to the sun's position and never in the middle of the night. They are deemed to be closer to the sun than Earth in the heliocentric model.

All these observations fit very well with the heliocentric model, is there a geocentric model which fits these basic observations just as well?

Apologies if this has been answered before.
The original geocentric explanation was epicycles:


That's what I've seen appealed to the most.

Not sure where you're getting the idea Mercury and Venus don't have retrograde motion. They do, it's just generally harder to see because theyr'e close to the Sun and it gets hidden in its light, which'd be the case for either model.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #134 on: November 26, 2018, 06:41:57 AM »
Look up Antikythera.
Geo vs helio just means unneccessarily complicated math.

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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #135 on: November 26, 2018, 11:36:34 AM »
it is not baseless to say that there is no FE model (with the possible exception of the non-Euclidean, as I've mentioned) features the Sun being even the same size as the Earth, let alone orders of magnitude larger.
If you disagree prove it.
No, the burden to prove that rests entirely upon you.
You are claiming that merely establishing that the planets are far and large is enough to refute FE.
I am claiming that is not the case.
Until you can show that all the existing FE models including bendy light show that, your claim is baseless.

So I ask again:
How far away and how large are the planets in the bendy light FE model?
What is this based upon?

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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #136 on: November 26, 2018, 11:40:29 AM »
A question for those that don't accept the heliocentric model.

Presumably most believe that the planets orbit Earth? If so what do they believe causes the periodic retrograde motion of the night time planets, which are further than the sun in the heliocentric model?

This retrograde motion isn't seen with the two planets, Mercury and Venus, which are also always observed when close to the sun's position and never in the middle of the night. They are deemed to be closer to the sun than Earth in the heliocentric model.

All these observations fit very well with the heliocentric model, is there a geocentric model which fits these basic observations just as well?

Apologies if this has been answered before.
FEers typically reject orbits outright. Instead of having objects orbit Earth they have them magically circle above Earth.

As for fitting models it depends what you mean by fitting it just as well.
The important part of the HC model is that it explains the apparent motion of the planets and the sun, as well as the parallax of the stars with a single simple force (gravity).
You can take this model and set any point to be the reference frame which results in significantly more complicated math for the positions, and removes the explanation. So I would say it doesn't fit it as well.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #137 on: November 26, 2018, 12:57:54 PM »
I am claiming that is not the case.
In spite of my repeated explanations as to why that's ludicrous, none of which you have acknowledged. So why should I care about your question when it's rooted in wilful ignorance?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #138 on: November 26, 2018, 01:24:02 PM »
In spite of my repeated explanations as to why that's ludicrous
You mean your repeated assertions. You are yet to offer any explanation of it other than appealing to some models having a close sun.

So why should I care about your question when it's rooted in wilful ignorance?
You are the one in wilful ignorance. Not caring about the bendy light FE model which was designed to overcome the shortcomings of close objects.
You are effectively saying you don't know and don't care, thus it gets refuted by an argument which might not actually refute it.

My question is rooted in wanting an argument which applies to FE in general, rather than attacking specific models which just results in the crap like bendy light to try and overcome those arguments.

It is like you don't actually want people to make arguments against FE, instead you just want them to make horribly flawed arguments so you can attack them and pretend FE has an answer for everything.

So I ask again:
How far away and how large are the planets in bendy light FE?
What is this based upon?

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #139 on: November 26, 2018, 01:28:01 PM »
In spite of my repeated explanations as to why that's ludicrous
You mean your repeated assertions. You are yet to offer any explanation of it other than appealing to some models having a close sun.
And pointing out what would actually be required for a Sun to be even comparable in size to the Earth, which is what matters, but sure.

There is no point in talking to you if you are just going to straight-up lie.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #140 on: November 26, 2018, 03:24:00 PM »
And pointing out what would actually be required for a Sun to be even comparable in size to the Earth, which is what matters, but sure.
What would be required? For it to be really far away and have light bend to make it appear in different apparent positions for different places on a flat Earth?
Gee, I wonder what model might have that....

There is no point in talking to you if you are just going to straight-up lie.
So there is no point talking to you?

Now I ask again:
How far away and how large are the planets in bendy light FE?
What is this based upon?

If you don't have an answer then your claim that the start of my argument already refutes FE is crap and thus it is not a standalone argument and instead needs to continue.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #141 on: November 26, 2018, 03:49:55 PM »
And pointing out what would actually be required for a Sun to be even comparable in size to the Earth, which is what matters, but sure.
What would be required? For it to be really far away and have light bend to make it appear in different apparent positions for different places on a flat Earth?
Gee, I wonder what model might have that....
And that sums it up really. No matter how many times I answer your question, if it's not the concession you want you'll just pretend it never happened and turn toddler to go "I know you are but what am I?"

When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #142 on: November 26, 2018, 04:07:07 PM »
No matter how many times I answer your question, if it's not the concession you want
No, if its the same repeated garbage I will dismiss it.
What I actually want is for you to actually answer the question in a rational manner or admit your claim is baseless.

Again, observations indicate the planets are far away (and thus quite large).
I accept that this goes against many FE models, where a key thing showing this is how the sun and moon and planets and stars appear to move throughout the sky and how it varies based upon location. For example, Polaris should be visible all over Earth if Earth was flat. If it was far away then it should appear in basically the same direction, straight up for everyone. If it was close then it would vary, with the often quoted 5000 km to put it at 45 degrees at 45 degrees north resulting it being no where near the horizon at the equator yet it is observed there.
Bendy light was invented to try to solve these problems (among others), and thus can have the planets and sun and moon and stars much further away from Earth than this token 5000 km, which also allows them to be much bigger.
This means merely establishing that the planets are far and big is not enough to refute bendy light FE.
This means the refutation of FE in general is not complete merely by showing the planets are far away (and large) and thus it is perfectly rational to continue through the argument and have that as just the start.

Your counterclaim requires that bendy light FE either doesn't exist or is magically the same as "normal" FE, (and overlooks the general issue of attacking particular models rather than a claim in general).

While you continue to ignore bendy light FE and the fact it was made up to avoid the issue with close celestial objects, your argument remains a baseless claim at best.

When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and respond to what I have been saying, rather than repeatedly strawmanning it.

Again, under bendy light FE how far away are the planets or any generic celestial object?

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2018, 04:29:52 PM »
When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2018, 04:58:52 PM »
When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
Again, I have.
You are the one not responding to what has been said.

Again, bendy light FE was made up to avoid the problems of near celestial objects. It allows celestial objects to be much further away and thus much larger.

So how far away are they in bendy light FE? If you can't answer, then how can you conclude that merely showing the planets are far away refutes FE?

Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #145 on: November 28, 2018, 05:16:51 AM »
When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
Again, I have.
You are the one not responding to what has been said.

Again, bendy light FE was made up to avoid the problems of near celestial objects. It allows celestial objects to be much further away and thus much larger.

So how far away are they in bendy light FE? If you can't answer, then how can you conclude that merely showing the planets are far away refutes FE?
History tell us that the world has been circumnavigated countless times by mariners since the 16th century. Back them is was a feat of courage and navigation, now all you require is a couple of thousand £, €, or $ to buy a round the world air ticket. If you were feeling a bit more adventurous you could do it by sea going on some of the thousands of container ships like those operated by Maersk, a Danish company. Many of them take paying passengers. Just ask the  ship’s captains what shape the earth is if you are in doubt.
On this thread like others the fog of anti science, bendy light for example has been used to both confuse and shroud the truth.

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Wolvaccine

  • EXTRA SPICY MODE
  • 25833
Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #146 on: November 28, 2018, 12:26:03 PM »
When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
Again, I have.
You are the one not responding to what has been said.

Again, bendy light FE was made up to avoid the problems of near celestial objects. It allows celestial objects to be much further away and thus much larger.

So how far away are they in bendy light FE? If you can't answer, then how can you conclude that merely showing the planets are far away refutes FE?
History tell us that the world has been circumnavigated countless times by mariners since the 16th century. Back them is was a feat of courage and navigation, now all you require is a couple of thousand £, €, or $ to buy a round the world air ticket. If you were feeling a bit more adventurous you could do it by sea going on some of the thousands of container ships like those operated by Maersk, a Danish company. Many of them take paying passengers. Just ask the  ship’s captains what shape the earth is if you are in doubt.
On this thread like others the fog of anti science, bendy light for example has been used to both confuse and shroud the truth.

Light does bend though. Nothing wrong with 'bendy light'

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/04/light-bends-itself


Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #147 on: November 28, 2018, 03:28:25 PM »
When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
Again, I have.
You are the one not responding to what has been said.

Again, bendy light FE was made up to avoid the problems of near celestial objects. It allows celestial objects to be much further away and thus much larger.

So how far away are they in bendy light FE? If you can't answer, then how can you conclude that merely showing the planets are far away refutes FE?
History tell us that the world has been circumnavigated countless times by mariners since the 16th century. Back them is was a feat of courage and navigation, now all you require is a couple of thousand £, €, or $ to buy a round the world air ticket. If you were feeling a bit more adventurous you could do it by sea going on some of the thousands of container ships like those operated by Maersk, a Danish company. Many of them take paying passengers. Just ask the  ship’s captains what shape the earth is if you are in doubt.
On this thread like others the fog of anti science, bendy light for example has been used to both confuse and shroud the truth.

Light does bend though. Nothing wrong with 'bendy light'

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/04/light-bends-itself

For the record I was referring to FE bendy sunlight light, as we all know in truth sunlight is made of parallel beams but FE believers don’t like that. Just one way in which FE believers distort science to meet their requirements.

Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #148 on: November 28, 2018, 03:31:34 PM »
Nothing wrong with preditcable bending.
When it bends to magically adhere to an observed bottom lit cloud, it cant just be because "light bends in this situation, it bends in all situations".

Re: If the other planets are observably round (I mean come on) why isn't Earth?
« Reply #149 on: November 28, 2018, 11:33:24 PM »
When you feel like responding to what I actually said, I'll be waiting.
Again, I have.
You are the one not responding to what has been said.

Again, bendy light FE was made up to avoid the problems of near celestial objects. It allows celestial objects to be much further away and thus much larger.

So how far away are they in bendy light FE? If you can't answer, then how can you conclude that merely showing the planets are far away refutes FE?
History tell us that the world has been circumnavigated countless times by mariners since the 16th century. Back them is was a feat of courage and navigation, now all you require is a couple of thousand £, €, or $ to buy a round the world air ticket. If you were feeling a bit more adventurous you could do it by sea going on some of the thousands of container ships like those operated by Maersk, a Danish company. Many of them take paying passengers. Just ask the  ship’s captains what shape the earth is if you are in doubt.
On this thread like others the fog of anti science, bendy light for example has been used to both confuse and shroud the truth.

Light does bend though. Nothing wrong with 'bendy light'

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/04/light-bends-itself

What has that got to do with the real world of planet earth? I take it you read and understood the link you provided?