Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation

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skeptical scientist

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« on: January 11, 2007, 12:42:35 PM »
Sorry it took me so long to write this - it's been on my mind for a while, and I've been asked about it several times, but there's a lot to consider. The books raise a lot of interesting questions which have no obvious correct answer.

If anyone reading this post hasn't read them, they provide excellent food for thought, regardless of your personal beliefs, and I highly recommend them as reading to anyone with the slightest interest. The God Delusion might be a better one to start with if you are not American, or if you are wondering about what reasons exist for atheism, but I imagine many of the points in Letter to a Christian Nation are relevent outside the US as well, especially because of the large role that this country which is increasingly run by religious extremists plays on the international stage, and it's short enough that you could read it in a couple of hours if you don't have time for a long book. Regardless of your beliefs, you should never fear to read a book on the basis of what it might say, and you should always try to understand why it is that you believe what you believe.

Finally, my apologies for the extremely long post, but as I said, there's a lot to think about. I wouldn't be surprised if Ubuntu is the only person who reads this, but I hope at least he (she?) will read it in its entirety, and maybe a few others will as well.



My Thoughts on The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation

In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins proposes a thesis: "There is a personal god who answers prayers and performs miracles." He then is dismisses this thesis with the level of rigor well beyond what one might expect from any scientific rebuttal of a proposed theory. He then goes on to show that religion as a whole causes much more harm than good. He gives plenty of evidence for this thesis, and it is probably true, although I'm sure it would be very hard to quantify exactly what good comes about because of religion, and what harm comes about, and relate the two.

However, he never proves his alternative thesis "there is no god". He brings up the point that without knowing which of two mutually exclusive and exhaustive possibilities is correct, we can nevertheless judge their relative likelihoods of being correct. This is certainly true. He then says that there not being a god is much more likely than there being a god. I happen to agree with him on this issue, but he doesn't provide any convincing objective grounds to conclude that this is true, so he has no right to say that his position is logical, but the idea that there is a god is not. However, if you include, together with the idea that there is a god, the further idea that this god acts to perform miracles in the world, perhaps during the present, and at least within recorded history, this belief can be objectively dismissed due to lack of evidence, and due to a great deal of evidence that claimed miracles are not the product of divine intervention, and due to the very clear propensity of humans to see supernatural actors present when there is only coincidence and natural forces at work.

Sam Harris doesn't go into the same detail as Dawkins in discussing reasons to believe or not believe in god (in Letter to a Christian Nation - I imagine he does discuss them in The End of Faith, and he clearly agrees with Dawkins on a great many things). He does talk a lot about the harm done by religious beliefs, particularly those of the conservative Christian movement in the United States. I certainly agree with him in his analysis of the problems with the conservative Christian movement. One of my good friends from college is one of the nicest and most moral people I know, but because of his religion, he believes homosexuality to be an immoral act. I'm not sure in what regards this has affected his actions, but this belief has caused an otherwise good person to see many people who never did anything to harm anyone as immoral. This is enough of a problem in and of itself, but when such people gain political power, it can cause even good people to intentionally pass laws infringing upon the rights of moral members of society. Nobel Prize-winning physicist Steven Weinberg was surely correct when he described the single most damaging result of religion: "Without it you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

However, the idea that some religions are much more problematic than others is completely ignored by both books, except in the cases where Harris and Dawkins say that a religion should not be viewed as a religion at all, but is a philosophy instead (Buddhism, for example). However, it's an important distinction to make because they are broadly indicting all religions, despite the fact that some religions do no harm at all, and may even provide overall benefit. Letter is much more specifically about a specific brand of a specific religion which does do a lot of harm, and I completely agree with its comments in regard to that religion, and Delusion is mainly about a similar set of beliefs, but they both make it clear that the problem, in their opinion, is with all belief that does not have a solid basis in fact. To me, there are two real problems with most religions, and neither are the mere fact of belief in the supernatural. The first is the idea that we should believe something which is not only unsupported by evidence, but also contrary to available evidence: for example, disbelieving evolution despite the vast amount of evidence that has been accumulated. The second is the idea that there is a god-given moral code which trumps all others. These two things are the real cause of all the harm that religion is responsible for, because this in particular is what causes good people to do evil things.

(In addition to good people doing bad things, Dawkins also blames religion for the evil that is responsible for inter-group warfare when there is nothing to label the different groups by besides religion, but this strikes me as terribly unfair because religion is no more responsible for that then skin color is responsible for inter-group warfare between groups of different skin color - one might as well say that skin is evil because if we were all skinless, nobody would be treated differently on the basis of skin color.)

On the subject of a moral code, Dawkins and Harris also seem to have arrived at a single correct moral code which trumps all others based on the idea of suffering. This is surely a better basis for a moral code than religion, since instead of taking a book that some (not especially moral) people wrote two thousand years ago in a very type of world than the world of today, they try to use the golden rule and the idea of suffering as moral guidelines, which is at least logical. However, they make no case at all that it is the right way to determine morality, and I don't think it is. For example, suppose I find out that the person living in the apartment next to me is chronically depressed, suffers from back pain, and has no friends or family. I then decide to break into his apartment, kill him, and take all his stuff. What suffering have I caused? Certainly my actions are not in any way moral, and I'm not claiming that Dawkins or Harris would think they are, but it does call into question to what extent suffering should be used as the basis for morality. Certainly it should be a consideration, but it can't be the only consideration either.



Dawkins and Harris conclude that there is no god, and I agree. They also say that the idea that there is a personal god who performs miracles can be conclusively shown to be false, and I agree there as well, so I would say that believing in a personal god who performs miracles indicates either irrationality or ignorance of the available evidence. However, since there is no proof of the nonexistence of a noninterventionist god who has had no effect on the universe since the big bang (which god may or may not have caused), I don't think that this belief can be fairly said to be either irrational or ignorant. Dawkins and Harris conclude that religion is by its very nature harmful. I disagree there, but I do think that any religion which claims that there is a god-given moral code which is the source of all morality is harmful, and also the idea that we should believe things which are contrary to known evidence is harmful. I have no problem with any religion which is not guilty of either of these things.

Dawkins and Harris are mostly silent on the issue of what should be done about the problem of the existence of religions which do do these things, which is understandable, as there is no easy answer. I agree that such beliefs should be called into question, and a national and international debate on the subject should be opened. I think this will do little to spread atheism besides converting a few fence sitters, but perhaps as children grow up in a society where "the god delusion" is openly debated, they will be less vulnerable to dogma, and in any case it might spread understanding and tolerance of atheism, and allow atheists to be more comfortable and open with their beliefs. I have never denied that I am an atheist, but I have also often been reluctant to publicize it, so while I'm certainly not in the atheist closet, I'm not exactly out of it either. I plan to teach, and I am painfully aware of the fact that certain institutions may be leery of the potential influence an atheist teacher may exert, and I do not intend to go out of my way to minimize that influence. Since I hope to teach at the college level, I imagine that this will not be an issue, but I do recognize its potential to become one depending on where I want to teach.




One final word-
My thoughts on many of these subjects are still evolving. I sometimes change my mind completely, but I generally keep returning to basically the viewpoint I've expressed here. To me, the most important questions are how much harm do specific beliefs do, and how can you reduce the number of people who hold harmful beliefs without doing harm in the process.
-David
E pur si muove!

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Erasmus

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Re: Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Natio
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2007, 02:07:39 PM »
Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
(In addition to good people doing bad things, Dawkins also blames religion for the evil that is responsible for inter-group warfare when there is nothing to label the different groups by besides religion, but this strikes me as terribly unfair because religion is no more responsible for that then skin color is responsible for inter-group warfare between groups of different skin color - one might as well say that skin is evil because if we were all skinless, nobody would be treated differently on the basis of skin color.)


Maybe skin color is responsible for intergroup warfare when there is nothing to label (I'm guessing you mean distinguish) the different groups besides skin color.  Probably this is almost never the case, right?  But sometimes it's the case when you replace skin color with religion (how do you non-religiously distinguish Shi'a from Sunni or 17th century English Catholics from 17th century English Protestants?).

Hm.  I have things I'd like to say regarding some of your other points, but I'd like to formulate them first.  Thanks for initiating the discussion.
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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2007, 02:10:57 PM »
Quote
However, since there is no proof of the nonexistence of a noninterventionist god who has had no effect on the universe since the big bang (which god may or may not have caused), I don't think that this belief can be fairly said to be either irrational or ignorant. Dawkins and Harris conclude that religion is by its very nature harmful. I disagree there


This belief in deism (likely based on pure rationalism--perhaps with some empirical support) is not really a religion, at least not in the normal sense.  Usually a religion is more of a cultural practice that gives one some sort of tribal significance.  Deism is not like this, as Ubuntu has pointed out in another thread.  It is more of a philosophical view than a spin on irrationality, and I'm not all to sure that Harris condemns this view.  Even if Dawkins condemns this view (he might, I'm not sure), even he would concede that a deistic view of the universe does not usually cause one to strap dynamite to his chest and blow himself up in a school.

I haven't read these two books, but will do so sometime this semester when I have a chance (I have much to read for my courses).  I finished The End of Faith last night and I offer that as a suggestion to you.  I also suggest (although I haven't read it yet) Atheist Universe.  This book can be found at this Amazon page.

link edited for clarity -- Erasmus
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Re: Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Natio
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2007, 02:33:21 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
(In addition to good people doing bad things, Dawkins also blames religion for the evil that is responsible for inter-group warfare when there is nothing to label the different groups by besides religion, but this strikes me as terribly unfair because religion is no more responsible for that then skin color is responsible for inter-group warfare between groups of different skin color - one might as well say that skin is evil because if we were all skinless, nobody would be treated differently on the basis of skin color.)


Maybe skin color is responsible for intergroup warfare when there is nothing to label (I'm guessing you mean distinguish) the different groups besides skin color.  Probably this is almost never the case, right?  But sometimes it's the case when you replace skin color with religion (how do you non-religiously distinguish Shi'a from Sunni or 17th century English Catholics from 17th century English Protestants?).

Perhaps "responsible" was a bad choice of word which made my meaning unclear. No doubt religious labels are needed in order for there to be warfare between groups of different religious labels if no other possible labels exist to tell the groups apart, and therefore religion is a necessary prerequisite for certain intergroup warfare. However, it's no more accurate to say "religion is evil because it provides labels that people can use to decide who they should and should not mistreat" than it is to say that skin color is evil, and no more reasonable to decide that religion should be abolished as a result than it would be to pass a law forcing everyone to permanently dye their skin blue.
-David
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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2007, 03:07:19 PM »
Thanks Erasmus.  Quick update, I just went to Amazon and bought these books.  This topic gave me the motivation.  But I didn't buy Atheist Universe.
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Dioptimus Drime

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2007, 03:07:42 PM »
I agree with you entirely on most of those notes. I think it'd be a really good idea to open up some good debates and stuff, to make people feel more comfortable believing in atheism. Then again, I have NEVER felt afraid or shy when admitting I'm an atheist. It might be just my location or something, but I've never felt awkward telling people I'm an atheist, and it never seems to be problematic for me.

~D-Draw

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beast

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2007, 03:37:22 PM »
I think it comes down to the statement that believing something false is a bad thing.  Do you agree, or do you think it's ok to base your life on a lie?  Would you prefer to be ignorant or knowledgeable?  Religion retards knowledge - there are some questions that religion says can't be answered but there seems to be no reason why they can't.  Maybe now we don't have the means, but that doesn't mean that one day we won't.  For example we used to think we'd never know what stars are made from, now people write songs about it.  Religion tried to answer the question "where did we come from" and "who created the world" and failed - science answered both those questions.  Now it tries to answer "what happens when we die" and "why do good things happen to us" - it will continue to try to answer these questions with answers that are not real.  This is why Dawkins and Harris oppose all religion, because it is aimed at giving answers without logic, often when it would be better to say that we don't know the answer and can work it out.  Science is the pursuit of knowledge.  Religion labels "God" to all the questions that can't be answered (and some that can).

If people want to have their own personal fallacious beliefs then that's fine but the fact is that in today's society those beliefs have an enormous impact on us all.  The reason for this is not because there are a few extremists in positions of power, but because there are so many people with some kind of belief who mean we have to tolerate people's religious beliefs.  Imagine that George Bush was actually a Scientologist and instead of openly preaching Christianity, he openly preached scientology.  Would he get the same support?  Of course he wouldn't.  If the majority of people viewed religion for what it is - a delusional belief attempting to make people feel better about their ignorance instead of accepting reality - then politicians would not be able to get away with making decisions for religious reasons.  The only way they can get away with it is because between 60 and 90% (depending on the country represented) also have a religious belief and don't see it as irrational or immoral to be making decisions for a large number of people based on those beliefs.

If you no longer want to live in a world where decisions are made for you based on somebody else's religious view, you need to start opposing all religion, because it isn't the extremists who take the power, it's the multitude of moderates and agnostics who give it to them.

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Rick_James

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2007, 06:39:22 PM »
You guys are going to be sooo proud of me  :lol:

I went and bought a copy of The God Delusion at lunch today!! First book I've bought in a while (have been borrowing lots off friends). I read the preface on my smoke break, and will start Chapter one on this arvo's smoke break. So far am enjoying it, finding it easy to get into.

Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2007, 06:47:15 PM »
I read Letter to a Christian Nation last night and really enjoyed it.  It's the kind of book that a person should have just to let other people read it.  The way I see it, if a Christian tries to lead me to believing in their God, our conversation will eventually be a stalemate.  Then I can agree that I'll read some theistic book by C.S. Lewis or Lee Strobel if they'll read this very short book.  I can't wait to try this out with somebody.

I also started reading The God Delusion last night.  It's okay so far.  I love this quote from Letter (pp. x-xi):

Quote from: "Sam Harris"
...despite a full century of scientific insights attesting to the antiquity of life and the greater antiquity of the earth, more than half of our neighbors believe that the entire cosmos was created six thousand years ago. This is, incidentally, about a thousand years after the Sumerians invented glue.
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Ubuntu

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2007, 11:33:36 AM »
Skept, Knight, and others, did any of you get shivers when reading either Letter or Delusion? While reading in Harris' book about the abortion laws in South America I had an overwhelming feeling of despair, and reading "Faith and Homosexuality" in TGD, I came very close to weeping. Am I just overemotional?


Skept, I am a few complaints:

Why should you have to gather evidence for a negative? If the answer to a question is either A or B, and we determine it's not A, doesn't it follow that it has to be B, especially when B is a working answer on all on its own? What evidence do you need for the No-God Hypothesis that you don't have to present for the No-Unicorn Hypothesis?

Deism isn't inherently harmful, but it is very irrational. Why would you wage war in the name of a God who doesn't care about you anyways? Usually deism results from a) lack of knowledge about science and/or b) failure to see the issues clearly. Deism also isn't really a religion. A religious belief, but not a religion.

Skept wrote-
"However, it's an important distinction to make because they are broadly indicting all religions, despite the fact that some religions do no harm at all, and may even provide overall benefit."

Although I'm not saying you are incorrect, which religions do you mean? What lies can benefit us more than truths?

On the issue of religious conflict:

Quote from: "Sam Harris"
Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities, and these divisions have become a continuous source of bloodshed. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it has been at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews vs. Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians vs. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians vs. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants vs. Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims vs. Hindus), Sudan (Muslims vs. Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims vs. Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims vs. Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists vs. Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims vs. Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite vs. Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians vs. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis vs. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. These are places where religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in recent decades.
    Why is religion such a potent source of violence? There is no other sphere of discourse in which human beings so fully articulate their differences from one another, or cast these differences in terms of everlasting rewards and punishments. Religion is the one endeavor in which us–them thinking achieves a transcendent significance. If you really believe that calling God by the right name can spell the difference between eternal happiness and eternal suffering, then it becomes quite reasonable to treat heretics and unbelievers rather badly. The stakes of our religious differences are immeasurably higher than those born of mere tribalism, racism, or politics.


http://mambo.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=2903&Itemid=247


As for ethics, you are making the classic mistake about utilitarianism. Killing someone who is depressed would cause more suffering than it would happiness. As depressed people, they have a chance to live a full life and happy life by overcoming their woe. Just because they are suffering at one point does not mean you should ignore the consequences of your actions in the future, hence, consequentialism. Imagine the terror and sorrow you would cause that poor man's family!

If not the experience of conscious beings, what should we base our ethics on? Our instincts? I strongly disagree. With simple thought experiments, you can see people's moral senses resulting in terribly immoral choices. Retribution, for example, is a primal instinct, but overall it is an irrational and barbaric impulse that should be thrown in the dustbin of animistic traits along with cannabilism.

On a related note, it is interesting to see how little we vary from our chimpanzee kin (not ancestors), and how much we differ from bonobos, whom humanity could learn an abundance from. Imagine a world, for example, where whenever you got really pissed off at someone you would just have sex with them! Imagine how many world conflicts we could diffuse with the bonobo "make love, not war" mentality. Indeed, when you put the "seek and destroy" genocide of competing groups, the cannabilism and infanticide of chimps under the light of bonobo pacificism and innate acceptance of pansexuality and female leaders, it is a sad thing we didn't evolve another way.

Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2007, 01:18:15 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
did any of you get shivers when reading either Letter or Delusion?


I didn't get 'shivers' while reading Letter but I was definitely convinced of the urgency of the situation we're in (even though he had me convinced in The End of Faith already).  It was a truly good book, and I'll read it again within the next month I'm sure.

I haven't gotten very far into Delusion yet.  So far it's not that spectacular, really, but I assume it's simply because he's setting up his argument that's to come soon.  I'll probably enjoy this book quite a bit once I get into the 'good stuff.'
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Ubuntu

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2007, 01:21:07 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
I haven't gotten very far into Delusion yet.  So far it's not that spectacular, really, but I assume it's simply because he's setting up his argument that's to come soon.  I'll probably enjoy this book quite a bit once I get into the 'good stuff.'


I agree the beginning is quite stale and uninspired. But that's because he is obligated to get a large amount of crap out of the way before he makes his arguments. The latter half of the book is the best half.

Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2007, 02:16:30 PM »
Okay, I just read the part where he dealt with the "Five Ways" of St. Thomas Aquinas and the ontological 'proof' of Anselm (and subsequent philosophers) and it left much to be desired.  The only thing I can think to do is to do a bunch of research myself and write my own book.  But I suppose Dawkins is good at debunking the "fifth way" or teleological argument which he says comes in chapter four.  So that should be good.
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Ubuntu

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2007, 03:41:52 PM »
What do you think it was lacking Knight?

Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2007, 04:49:48 PM »
It was lacking a more thorough debunking of those arguments.  People actually do use those arguments in debates, and each of the arguments need to be given their own section and properly dealt with.
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Ubuntu

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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2007, 06:46:43 PM »
People actually still use them? That's just sad. They're like... papermen.

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skeptical scientist

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2007, 03:24:18 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Skept, Knight, and others, did any of you get shivers when reading either Letter or Delusion? While reading in Harris' book about the abortion laws in South America I1 had an overwhelming feeling of despair, and reading "Faith and Homosexuality" in TGD, I came very close to weeping. Am I just overemotional?

I got shivers reading the story of Alan Turing (which I had of course heard before, but which never fails to affect me). I simply cannot understand how such a brilliant and insightful man who did such a tremendous service to his government could be so badly treated in return.


Quote
Skept, I am a few complaints:

Why should you have to gather evidence for a negative? If the answer to a question is either A or B, and we determine it's not A, doesn't it follow that it has to be B, especially when B is a working answer on all on its own? What evidence do you need for the No-God Hypothesis that you don't have to present for the No-Unicorn Hypothesis?

You should have to gather an evidence for a negative because unless you have evidence for any statement of the positive or negative variety, you can't know whether it is correct. For example, if I were to state "there are no gravitons in the universe", it would be completely unreasonable to accept my statement, despite the fact that it is a negative statement about the nonexistence of a hypothetical particle for which we have no evidence, because it is reasonable to suppose that gravitons do exist. Oftentimes in science one has cause to wonder "does there exist such-and-such", and it would be completely silly to dismiss all of these questions out of hand. Instead, one should look for evidence, and in the absence of evidence, one should try and figure out which is more likely.

Dawkins undoubtedly agrees with me; this is why he is a 6 on the 1-7 scale of atheism, but probably a 7 on the scale of a-unicorn-ism. Deities seem somehow more plausible than invisible ethereal purple unicorns gallivanting through London, and that is why one dismisses the unicorns more easily than the (deist-style) deities. When it comes to a faith which makes concrete, testable statements about the modern world (such as that god answers prayers and has a son who walked on water), these statements are certainly false, and so of course a rational, unbiased, scientifically-minded person should realize that they must be false.

Quote
Deism isn't inherently harmful, but it is very irrational. Why would you wage war in the name of a God who doesn't care about you anyways? Usually deism results from a) lack of knowledge about science and/or b) failure to see the issues clearly. Deism also isn't really a religion. A religious belief, but not a religion.

Who has ever waged war in the name of Deism? Who has done anything in the name of Deism?

Quote
Skept wrote-
"However, it's an important distinction to make because they are broadly indicting all religions, despite the fact that some religions do no harm at all, and may even provide overall benefit."

Although I'm not saying you are incorrect, which religions do you mean? What lies can benefit us more than truths?

I'm not saying that the lies benefit more than the truths; I'm saying that the healthy and correct (philosophical) beliefs of some religions do more good than the (incorrect) supernatural beliefs; the prime example I would give here is Quakerism, but other examples would be Unitarian Universalism and Reform Judaism. All of these religions go together with some supernatural beliefs that are probably responsible for only very minor harm, and promote a world view that is accepting and emphasizes freedom, equality, and treating others well, regardless of their beliefs.

Quote
On the issue of religious conflict:

Quote from: "Sam Harris"
*snip*

I'm not denying that a great deal of evil has been done in the name of religion.

Quote
As for ethics, you are making the classic mistake about utilitarianism. Killing someone who is depressed would cause more suffering than it would happiness. As depressed people, they have a chance to live a full life and happy life by overcoming their woe. Just because they are suffering at one point does not mean you should ignore the consequences of your actions in the future, hence, consequentialism. Imagine the terror and sorrow you would cause that poor man's family!

I specifically mentioned that the "poor man" was without family or friends who would be harmed by the man's death. The details are not terribly important; the point is that one can imagine a situation where merely the consideration of the suffering of conscious beings is insufficient to produce a correct moral value to attack to some actions, and so, while suffering should certainly be a consideration, it should not be the solitary source of our entire moral philosophy.

Quote
If not the experience of conscious beings, what should we base our ethics on? Our instincts? I strongly disagree. With simple thought experiments, you can see people's moral senses resulting in terribly immoral choices. Retribution, for example, is a primal instinct, but overall it is an irrational and barbaric impulse that should be thrown in the dustbin of animistic traits along with cannabilism.

I don't have a good solution to where one gets a set of definite guidelines for morality. Pretty much any philosophy I can think of which doesn't rely on my instincts for determining what is moral seems to produce things which are moral by the philosophy but not by my instincts,

Quote
On a related note, it is interesting to see how little we vary from our chimpanzee kin (not ancestors), and how much we differ from bonobos, whom humanity could learn an abundance from. Imagine a world, for example, where whenever you got really pissed off at someone you would just have sex with them! Imagine how many world conflicts we could diffuse with the bonobo "make love, not war" mentality. Indeed, when you put the "seek and destroy" genocide of competing groups, the cannabilism and infanticide of chimps under the light of bonobo pacificism and innate acceptance of pansexuality and female leaders, it is a sad thing we didn't evolve another way.

Maybe, or maybe we would just have a lot fewer murders but a lot more rapes...
-David
E pur si muove!

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Ubuntu

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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2007, 04:19:32 PM »
Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
I got shivers reading the story of Alan Turing (which I had of course heard before, but which never fails to affect me). I simply cannot understand how such a brilliant and insightful man who did such a tremendous service to his government could be so badly treated in return.


Lev 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

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skeptical scientist

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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2007, 06:52:36 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Lev 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

I realize that biblical / historical morality is the source of the idea that homosexuality is a sin; I just don't understand how someone can look at what homosexuals actually do, look at the punishment under consideration, and actually elect to impose that despicable and cruel punishment for the harmless acts practiced by homosexuals. I find it particularly incomprehensible when that inhumane punishment is imposed on one of the most brilliant thinkers of the 20th century, especially when he not only made immense contributions to the field of mathematics, but also was perhaps more responsible than any other single individual for the salvation of his country from the Nazi threat.
-David
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Thoughts on God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2007, 07:48:23 PM »
Hey, it's not our rules, it's the rules of God.  Who are we to question God if he wants us to kill homosexuals and people of other faiths?  He commands through the inerrant word of the Bible and we just obey.  Got it?
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Masterchef

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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2007, 09:12:02 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Hey, it's not our rules, it's the rules of God.  Who are we to question God if he wants us to kill homosexuals and people of other faiths?  He commands through the inerrant word of the Bible and we just obey.  Got it?

I hope that was a joke...

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Nomad

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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2007, 09:37:55 PM »
Quote from: "Masterchief2219"
Quote from: "Knight"
Hey, it's not our rules, it's the rules of God.  Who are we to question God if he wants us to kill homosexuals and people of other faiths?  He commands through the inerrant word of the Bible and we just obey.  Got it?

I hope that was a joke...


Since when does Knight joke?
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cmdshft

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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2007, 09:55:46 PM »

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Ubuntu

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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2007, 02:19:39 PM »
Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
Dawkins undoubtedly agrees with me; this is why he is a 6 on the 1-7 scale of atheism, but probably a 7 on the scale of a-unicorn-ism.


Undeniably? No. He's a 6 on the scale of aunicornism. In fact, when asked "But you are 100% [certain that God doesn't exist], aren't you?" he replied "I'm the same as for fairies." I don't see why this is unreasonable. In fact, I think this is most the reasonable stance.

There is a fundamental difference between gods and gravitons (hey that would be great title for a book! (C) Ubuntu): God is a superfluous theory at best, whereas gravitons might actually explain something. The evidence for the "No God Hypothesis" is obvious: the universe works fine without him.

Really what's the difference between God and a faerie?

Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
I'm not saying that the lies benefit more than the truths; I'm saying that the healthy and correct (philosophical) beliefs of some religions do more good than the (incorrect) supernatural beliefs; the prime example I would give here is Quakerism, but other examples would be Unitarian Universalism and Reform Judaism. All of these religions go together with some supernatural beliefs that are probably responsible for only very minor harm, and promote a world view that is accepting and emphasizes freedom, equality, and treating others well, regardless of their beliefs.

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Ubuntu

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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2007, 12:37:42 PM »
Quote from: "Skept"
Who has ever waged war in the name of Deism? Who has done anything in the name of Deism?


I think you read my statements incorrectly. I said that deism is irrational, but not inherently harmful.

Quote from: "Skept"
I'm not saying that the lies benefit more than the truths; I'm saying that the healthy and correct (philosophical) beliefs of some religions do more good than the (incorrect) supernatural beliefs; the prime example I would give here is Quakerism, but other examples would be Unitarian Universalism and Reform Judaism.


So are you saying that those philosophical beliefs are incompatible with naturalism? Are you saying they can't have good and ethical beliefs without bad, superstitious ones?

Quote from: "Skept"
I'm not denying that a great deal of evil has been done in the name of religion.


Not just in the name of religion, because of religion.

Quote from: "Skept"
I specifically mentioned that the "poor man" was without family or friends who would be harmed by the man's death. The details are not terribly important; the point is that one can imagine a situation where merely the consideration of the suffering of conscious beings is insufficient to produce a correct moral value to attack to some actions, and so, while suffering should certainly be a consideration, it should not be the solitary source of our entire moral philosophy.


What else would you care about in ethical issues except for suffering and happiness? Why do you we have moral obligations to people and animals? Why don't we to rocks? Although in that case happiness wouldn't be increased and suffering relieved from the man's death (it's like saying if you were Hitler's father and knew his future when he was a child the only ethical thing to do would be killing him), if it was, then the killing would be justified and morally right. If I have to kill someone to save a train full of people, by consequentialist thinking, it is right, by deontological or absolutist thinking it is not.

Quote from: "Skept"
I don't have a good solution to where one gets a set of definite guidelines for morality. Pretty much any philosophy I can think of which doesn't rely on my instincts for determining what is moral seems to produce things which are moral by the philosophy but not by my instincts...


Well I think we can all agree that relying on our instincts rather than reason hasn't done anything good for us yet. Although definitely we need our moral sense, it isn't perfect, and, having been evolved in uncivilized conditions, can screw things up if we try to apply specific instincts to our unnatural lives.

Quote from: "Skept"
Maybe, or maybe we would just have a lot fewer murders but a lot more rapes...


I don't imagine there's such a thing for bonobos.

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skeptical scientist

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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2007, 01:27:40 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "Skept"
I'm not saying that the lies benefit more than the truths; I'm saying that the healthy and correct (philosophical) beliefs of some religions do more good than the (incorrect) supernatural beliefs; the prime example I would give here is Quakerism, but other examples would be Unitarian Universalism and Reform Judaism.


So are you saying that those philosophical beliefs are incompatible with naturalism? Are you saying they can't have good and ethical beliefs without bad, superstitious ones?

No, of course I'm not saying that. I think naturalism is a brilliant philosophy; I merely think that some religions are worse than others. Since Dawkins and Harris are trying to make the point that acceptance of a privileged status of religion protects even the worst religions, I understand why this is a point that they glossed over, and I can agree with their reasons for doing it.

Quote
What else would you care about in ethical issues except for suffering and happiness? Why do you we have moral obligations to people and animals? Why don't we to rocks? Although in that case happiness wouldn't be increased and suffering relieved from the man's death (it's like saying if you were Hitler's father and knew his future when he was a child the only ethical thing to do would be killing him), if it was, then the killing would be justified and morally right. If I have to kill someone to save a train full of people, by consequentialist thinking, it is right, by deontological or absolutist thinking it is not.

Here's another example, this time from Boston Legal (although the details have been modified somewhat). Suppose you were a doctor, and you had a patient in the last stages of a fatal cancer, who was living in constant agony. Without the ok of the patient or his family, you decide to give the patient enough anesthetic that he will go to sleep and never wake up. You have ended the patient's suffering, and not caused anyone else to suffer in the process; however, you have also intentionally killed a human being. (This is different from doctor-assisted suicide, since not only did the patient not request the lethal dose of anesthetic, he didn't even consent to it.) Is this action ethical? I believe that it is not, but I don't see any way of justifying the immorality of the doctor's action if suffering is the only thing being considered. I think the situation is more nuanced than the mere consideration of suffering entails. I'm certainly not saying that we have ethical obligations to rocks, but I do believe that we have ethical obligations beyond the obligation not to cause suffering.

Another example: how about the treatment of human remains? Does it cause anyone to suffer if I go to a graveyard somewhere, dig up a human skull, and make it into a chamber pot, as long as nobody else knows about it? Is it moral?

Quote
Quote from: "Skept"
I don't have a good solution to where one gets a set of definite guidelines for morality. Pretty much any philosophy I can think of which doesn't rely on my instincts for determining what is moral seems to produce things which are moral by the philosophy but not by my instincts...

Well I think we can all agree that relying on our instincts rather than reason hasn't done anything good for us yet. Although definitely we need our moral sense, it isn't perfect, and, having been evolved in uncivilized conditions, can screw things up if we try to apply specific instincts to our unnatural lives.

I'm not saying that I rely on a purely evolutionary sense of right and wrong - I simply can't put into words why I believe what I believe. Just because I can't quantify the reasons for my ethical code doesn't make it a bad one, and just because some ethical codes have reasons which are easily quantifiable doesn't make them correct.

Quote
Quote from: "Skept"
Maybe, or maybe we would just have a lot fewer murders but a lot more rapes...

I don't imagine there's such a thing for bonobos.

Maybe not, but there certainly is for humans, and probably there still would be if we had been more closely related to bonobos and less closely to chimps.
-David
E pur si muove!

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Ubuntu

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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2007, 07:21:56 AM »
Quote from: "skeptical scientist"
...I merely think that some religions are worse than others.


I don't think anyone's denying that. Sam Harris insists that Jainism is better than Christianity in his latest book.

Quote from: "Skept"
Without the ok of the patient or his family, you decide to give the patient enough anesthetic that he will go to sleep and never wake up. You have ended the patient's suffering, and not caused anyone else to suffer in the process; however, you have also intentionally killed a human being.


In this scenario you have to make an assessment. By asking the patient if he/she wants to die, you can discover important information about what will benefit their deeper well-being. If they want to live a bit longer, even in pain, it will probably be worth while emotionally for them. If the patient is in a state where he/she cannot decide, I would highly recommend giving them the anesthetic as quickly as possible. Due to the oft stupid world of legalities however, you'd probably need consent from the family.

Quote from: "Skept"
Another example: how about the treatment of human remains? Does it cause anyone to suffer if I go to a graveyard somewhere, dig up a human skull, and make it into a chamber pot, as long as nobody else knows about it? Is it moral?


Well, if no one ever found out about it, there would be no emotional damage. However, there is always that risk. People are sensitive about remains. Should they be? Not really. Are they? Definitely.

The odds that you would never be caught are slim, but let's assume there is no trace, no risk, and no one ever examines the grave. How is using a chamberpot made of bone different from using one made of metal or plastic? I don't share your intuitions with this one. No, I'm not in favour of taking pieces of skeletons from graveyards (although that would be a cool cultural tradition if you made jewelry from the bones of the dead) but if it causes you great joy -- well that's actually an issue, because usually a morbid fascination with body parts implies some other problems. If not, why not?
 
To be honest, if there were no better use for it, I wouldn't mind my skull used for practical or decorative purposes. I know some people definitely wouldn't, but hey, they're dead.

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skeptical scientist

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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 07:16:14 PM »
Well, from your point of view maybe suffering is a sufficient guide for morality, but you and I disagree about some of the things you consider to be moral. In order to get a sense of morality which matches mine, it is necessary to consider things in addition to suffering.
-David
E pur si muove!

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Ubuntu

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« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2007, 07:56:03 PM »
Have you considered the possibility that your sense of morality is flawed?

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cmdshft

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« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2007, 08:34:49 PM »
Moral's are relative. :wink: