Second try at moonbounce post

  • 13 Replies
  • 2652 Views
Second try at moonbounce post
« on: October 31, 2018, 03:08:22 PM »
In my first post, my claims were not specific nor cited. Here is a good summary of the info on what power, what antenna, etc, including the speed of light and transmission time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication

CQ magazine, ham web sites, numerous web postings. It is, as the kids say "a thing" among hams. A mammoth effort at an obscure hoax? A bunch of ham radio guys all made errors and only thought they bouncing off the moon? Speed of radio transmission not known (yes, I think it is well known)? They all measured the time (2.5 seconds) wrong? All hams doing this are in on it? What happens when someone who isn't in on it reads an article and tries it himself?

Mistake, conspiracy, ??? How was this done? Is the firmament 240,000 miles up?  If the moon is 3100 miles away, what accounts for the delay?

Any explanation for the time to echo being consistent with the earth 240,000 away from the moon?
Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?

Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 03:25:39 PM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2018, 06:08:46 PM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.
And what is the relative permittivity of your magical aether to delay EM radiation by a factor of over 77?
Now I assume that your magical aether is non-magnetic (and I've seen no rockets getting stuck in it).
So if I haven't forgotten all my EM radiation theory, v = 1/(ε0µ0)1/2. Hence the relative permittivity of your magical aether must be almost 6000!

Then more magical still,  this wondrous aether must slow radar signals from Venus, closer to earth at times than the moon, so that they take about 5 minutes to return :D.

Your magical aether is certainly wondrous stuff, knowing to delay these planetary radar return times to match the times predicted by the heliocentric solar system.

It looks as though your magical aether knows that the earth is a Globe and the moon is about 384,000 km away even if you Flatardians don't.
Ole Christensen Rømer way back in 1676 knew far more about light propagation times than you Flatardians!

Now how about addressing the topic with something sensible?

Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2018, 09:55:48 PM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.

This still doesn't change the fact that it is only laser beams directed at the moon that return in 2.5 seconds. The moon is supposedly below the dome. Has to be in fact. So if those beams were hitting the done or going through aether and returning (wherever that aether is) then pointing a laser beam at any part of the sky should give a return in 2.5 seconds.

Spoiler alert. It doesn't.

Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2018, 01:40:15 PM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.
And what is the relative permittivity of your magical aether to delay EM radiation by a factor of over 77?
Now I assume that your magical aether is non-magnetic (and I've seen no rockets getting stuck in it).
So if I haven't forgotten all my EM radiation theory, v = 1/(ε0µ0)1/2. Hence the relative permittivity of your magical aether must be almost 6000!

Argument by incredulity. How adorable.

Materials exist that slow the group velocity of EM waves down to a few tens of meters per second.

Then more magical still,  this wondrous aether must slow radar signals from Venus, closer to earth at times than the moon, so that they take about 5 minutes to return :D.

Your magical aether is certainly wondrous stuff, knowing to delay these planetary radar return times to match the times predicted by the heliocentric solar system.

What does Venus have to do with this post? Are you suggesting that these hamateurs claim to have bounced radio signals off Venus? Please, stick to the question.

It looks as though your magical aether knows that the earth is a Globe and the moon is about 384,000 km away even if you Flatardians don't.
Ole Christensen Rømer way back in 1676 knew far more about light propagation times than you Flatardians!

I guess someone didn't read the bit about "Please do not call names".

It's interesting what assumptions you make. Please point out exactly what in my previous post is factually incorrect.

?

robintex

  • Ranters
  • 5322
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2018, 09:57:13 AM »
In my first post, my claims were not specific nor cited. Here is a good summary of the info on what power, what antenna, etc, including the speed of light and transmission time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication

CQ magazine, ham web sites, numerous web postings. It is, as the kids say "a thing" among hams. A mammoth effort at an obscure hoax? A bunch of ham radio guys all made errors and only thought they bouncing off the moon? Speed of radio transmission not known (yes, I think it is well known)? They all measured the time (2.5 seconds) wrong? All hams doing this are in on it? What happens when someone who isn't in on it reads an article and tries it himself?

Mistake, conspiracy, ??? How was this done? Is the firmament 240,000 miles up?  If the moon is 3100 miles away, what accounts for the delay?

Any explanation for the time to echo being consistent with the earth 240,000 away from the moon?

If you have any questions or doubts about "Moon Bounce" your best sources for information would be to contact the Amateur Radio Organization in your country, such as The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) , in the United States at Newington, Connecticut  or The Radio Society Of Great Britain (RSGB) in the United Kingdom.
They can supply  you with lists of the "hams" taking part in "Moon Bounce" and answer any questions you might have, technical or otherwise.
You might even be able to talk to some "ham" in your neighbourhood who has taken part in "Moon Bounce" and give you some first hand information on the subject. "Hams" all over the world participate in "Moon Bounce".

The distance from the earth to the moon was known long before "Moon Bounce" by Amateur Radio Operators and Laser Measurements by Astronomical Observatories.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 09:30:21 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

JCM

  • 245
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2018, 10:11:43 AM »


Then more magical still,  this wondrous aether must slow radar signals from Venus, closer to earth at times than the moon, so that they take about 5 minutes to return :D.


Rabinoz can you clarify this statement please?  Venus never gets closer then 25million miles to the Earth.

?

robintex

  • Ranters
  • 5322
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2018, 10:24:53 AM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.
And what is the relative permittivity of your magical aether to delay EM radiation by a factor of over 77?
Now I assume that your magical aether is non-magnetic (and I've seen no rockets getting stuck in it).
So if I haven't forgotten all my EM radiation theory, v = 1/(ε0µ0)1/2. Hence the relative permittivity of your magical aether must be almost 6000!

Then more magical still,  this wondrous aether must slow radar signals from Venus, closer to earth at times than the moon, so that they take about 5 minutes to return :D.

Your magical aether is certainly wondrous stuff, knowing to delay these planetary radar return times to match the times predicted by the heliocentric solar system.

It looks as though your magical aether knows that the earth is a Globe and the moon is about 384,000 km away even if you Flatardians don't.
Ole Christensen Rømer way back in 1676 knew far more about light propagation times than you Flatardians!

Now how about addressing the topic with something sensible?

rabinoz-
Sorry to question such a learned person as you. LOL
You wrote "Venus, at times closer to the earth than the moon".

 The closest figure I have seen is 23.7  million miles for Venus and 225 thousand miles for the moon ?
If Venus was "At times closer to the earth than the moon" it would appear to be about 3 times larger than the moon with the naked eye since the diameter of Venus is about 3 times larger than that of the moon.
It would be quite a night-time spectacle !
I can't believe that with your usual expertise, you made this goof. Or maybe you have an explanation for it ?

As it is, Venus is one of the brightest lights in the night sky -"The Evening Star".
But it is always so far away it is always just that - a bright dot in the night sky.
And only viewed in detail with a powerful telescope.

73, best dx, and best wishes, and an apology for the nit-picking  :-)

Incidentally, I would have to check it out , but I have never heard of a ham radio "Venus Bounce."......Too far away for that ! ???
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 09:21:40 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

NotSoSkeptical

  • 8548
  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2018, 10:46:30 AM »
@Googleotomy & @JCM

I'm pretty sure Rab meant the sun in that line, not the moon.
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2018, 02:25:49 PM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.
And what is the relative permittivity of your magical aether to delay EM radiation by a factor of over 77?
Now I assume that your magical aether is non-magnetic (and I've seen no rockets getting stuck in it).
So if I haven't forgotten all my EM radiation theory, v = 1/(ε0µ0)1/2. Hence the relative permittivity of your magical aether must be almost 6000!

Then more magical still,  this wondrous aether must slow radar signals from Venus, closer to earth at times than the moon, so that they take about 5 minutes to return :D.

Your magical aether is certainly wondrous stuff, knowing to delay these planetary radar return times to match the times predicted by the heliocentric solar system.

It looks as though your magical aether knows that the earth is a Globe and the moon is about 384,000 km away even if you Flatardians don't.
Ole Christensen Rømer way back in 1676 knew far more about light propagation times than you Flatardians!

Now how about addressing the topic with something sensible?

rabinoz-
Sorry to question such a learned person as you. LOL
You wrote "Venus, at times closer to the earth than the moon".

 The closest figure I have seen is 23.7  million miles for Venus and 225 thousand miles for the moon ?
If Venus was "At times closer to the earth than the moon" it would appear to be about 3 times larger than the moon with the naked eye since the diameter of Venus is about 3 times larger than that of the moon.
It would be quite a night-time spectacle!
I can't believe that with your usual expertise, you made this goof. Or maybe you have an explanation for it ?

As it is, Venus is one of the brightest lights in the night sky -"The Evening Star".
But it is always so far away it is always just that - a bright dot in the night sky.
And only viewed in detail with a powerful telescope.

73, best dx, and best wishes, and an apology for the nit-picking  :-)

Incidentally, I would have to check it out, but I have never heard of a ham radio "Venus Bounce."......Too far away for that! ???
@Googleotomy & @JCM

I'm pretty sure Rab meant the sun in that line, not the moon.
No, I really did mean Venus! Googleotomy was also correct but he is using distances according to the Heliocentric System.
  • I should have made it more clear that I was referring to distances according to FET.

    In the FET as best as I can interpret it, Venus can still transit the sun so presumably at times is closer than the sun. That is hard to question as it is observed by so many people.

    Yet, again as I interpret what is written in the Wiki, the moon when full is further than the sun. Look at
    Quote from: The Flat Earth Society Wiki
    The Phases of the Moon
    When one observes the phases of the moon he is simply observing the moon's day and night, a natural shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

    The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.
    • When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.
    • When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.
    • When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.
    And I assume that we can rely on the Wiki for this sort of information.

    So, the radar/laser return from the moon, some 5000 km away, takes about 2.5 secs but the radar return from Venus, possibly closer to earth, takes about 5 minutes,
    Hence my incredulity in my earlier post.

  • Googleotomy, you are right about there being no "ham radio "Venus Bounce". Planetary Radar Astronomy is limited to "suspect big science" organisations such as the National Science Foundation (NSF), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and the equivalent Russian organisations.

*

NotSoSkeptical

  • 8548
  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2018, 02:46:55 PM »
Ah. I figured you were discussing according to reality.  Where Venus is closer to earth than the sun during certain times of the year.
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

?

robintex

  • Ranters
  • 5322
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2018, 09:48:44 PM »
Ah. I figured you were discussing according to reality.  Where Venus is closer to earth than the sun during certain times of the year.

Ah, I was guilty of the same error.
But the problem with Venus on a flat earth is that some FE's deny the existance of planets.

And also, if there are planets in the FE scheme of things, we do not know their sizes, so there is a question :
How does the size of Venus compare to the size of the moon as viewed from the earth if Venus is closer to the earth than the moon ?
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

robintex

  • Ranters
  • 5322
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2018, 10:09:09 PM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.

This still doesn't change the fact that it is only laser beams directed at the moon that return in 2.5 seconds. The moon is supposedly below the dome. Has to be in fact. So if those beams were hitting the done or going through aether and returning (wherever that aether is) then pointing a laser beam at any part of the sky should give a return in 2.5 seconds.

Spoiler alert. It doesn't.

Correction:
Both laser beams from the observatories and the radio beams from the amateur radio operators from the earth to the moon return in the same period of time - 2.5  seconds.
Laser beams, radio beams and the speed of light all travel at the same speed  - 186,00 miles per second.
Both the laser beam and the radio beam measurements all agree with the known  distance from the earth to the moon - 240,000 miles.

Has anyone followed up on my suggestion to check with the ARRL, RSGB, or other national amateur radio organizations, radio clubs, or individual amateur rado operators , for more detailed information on "Moon Bounce" , such as the types of transmitters, receivers , antennas and other technical information involved in these operations ?

The only costs would be telephones, postage or internet charges, Amateur Radio is a public service and amateur radio operators are forbidden to charge for any of their services, which also include radiograms.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 10:21:36 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

robintex

  • Ranters
  • 5322
Re: Second try at moonbounce post
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2018, 10:33:52 PM »
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.
And what is the relative permittivity of your magical aether to delay EM radiation by a factor of over 77?
Now I assume that your magical aether is non-magnetic (and I've seen no rockets getting stuck in it).
So if I haven't forgotten all my EM radiation theory, v = 1/(ε0µ0)1/2. Hence the relative permittivity of your magical aether must be almost 6000!

Then more magical still,  this wondrous aether must slow radar signals from Venus, closer to earth at times than the moon, so that they take about 5 minutes to return :D.

Your magical aether is certainly wondrous stuff, knowing to delay these planetary radar return times to match the times predicted by the heliocentric solar system.

It looks as though your magical aether knows that the earth is a Globe and the moon is about 384,000 km away even if you Flatardians don't.
Ole Christensen Rømer way back in 1676 knew far more about light propagation times than you Flatardians!

Now how about addressing the topic with something sensible?

rabinoz-
Sorry to question such a learned person as you. LOL
You wrote "Venus, at times closer to the earth than the moon".

 The closest figure I have seen is 23.7  million miles for Venus and 225 thousand miles for the moon ?
If Venus was "At times closer to the earth than the moon" it would appear to be about 3 times larger than the moon with the naked eye since the diameter of Venus is about 3 times larger than that of the moon.
It would be quite a night-time spectacle!
I can't believe that with your usual expertise, you made this goof. Or maybe you have an explanation for it ?

As it is, Venus is one of the brightest lights in the night sky -"The Evening Star".
But it is always so far away it is always just that - a bright dot in the night sky.
And only viewed in detail with a powerful telescope.

73, best dx, and best wishes, and an apology for the nit-picking  :-)

Incidentally, I would have to check it out, but I have never heard of a ham radio "Venus Bounce."......Too far away for that! ???
@Googleotomy & @JCM

I'm pretty sure Rab meant the sun in that line, not the moon.
No, I really did mean Venus! Googleotomy was also correct but he is using distances according to the Heliocentric System.
  • I should have made it more clear that I was referring to distances according to FET.

    In the FET as best as I can interpret it, Venus can still transit the sun so presumably at times is closer than the sun. That is hard to question as it is observed by so many people.

    Yet, again as I interpret what is written in the Wiki, the moon when full is further than the sun. Look at
    Quote from: The Flat Earth Society Wiki
    The Phases of the Moon
    When one observes the phases of the moon he is simply observing the moon's day and night, a natural shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

    The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.
    • When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.
    • When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.
    • When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.
    And I assume that we can rely on the Wiki for this sort of information.

    So, the radar/laser return from the moon, some 5000 km away, takes about 2.5 secs but the radar return from Venus, possibly closer to earth, takes about 5 minutes,
    Hence my incredulity in my earlier post.

  • Googleotomy, you are right about there being no "ham radio "Venus Bounce". Planetary Radar Astronomy is limited to "suspect big science" organisations such as the National Science Foundation (NSF), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and the equivalent Russian organisations.

As to the phases of the moon,  there are some FE's who believe the moon is "self illuminated".
There are also some FE's who believe that the sun "acts like, or as a spotlight" , and "shines only downward in a circle on the earth."
Hence, no light from the sun would ever reach the moon

Question for FE.
If the moon is constantly wobbling up and down , what are the distances in altitude   - up and down - from the orbital path of the moon for these "new moons" and "full moons" as well as the other phases of the moon ?
What are the distances from the earth to the moon for all these various phases of the moon - from "new moon" to "full mòon"  for example ?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 11:03:33 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !