Poll

Pi or Phew?

Pi=3.14159
12 (92.3%)
Phew=3.17157
1 (7.7%)
Still not sure
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Voting closed: September 21, 2018, 01:52:10 AM

Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157

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rabinoz

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2018, 05:41:26 AM »
It was me that said "Rabinoz is the hero of FE coz he makes RET looks stupid".  :o

And then he copypaste what I've said. I can't believe this. ;D
No, try again. I said:
Sometimes I think that all you are trying to do is to make the whole idea of the ::) earth being flat ::) seem ridiculous.
But whether you are trying to of not, you certainly are making you idea of a flat-earth look totally foolish.

Keep it up!
Congratulations!

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MicroBeta

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2018, 06:26:14 AM »
Try again, Jack.
It's already been 2018. No series anymore please. That's the toy of old times people. 8)
No more series?  What the hell is that based on?  IOW, you're wrong as series functions are in use today.  Since you don't understand how to use them...

Just another situation where you throw all kinds of insults and demand everyone else to prove what we’re saying and answer your questions but you refuse to. 

This will be like every other thread you’ve started. 

You post some made up crap about phew.
You usually make some corrections with the first couple of posts because you can’t seem to get it right.
You get your ass handed to you when everyone shoots down your supposed proof of phew.
You avoid answering even most basic questions about phew.
You dismiss anything anyone posts to prove you wrong because you’ve got no answers.
You start another thread with some more unprovable crap and soon after you’ll abandon this one so you can avoid the embarrassment of your utter failure.

Thus is the lifecycle of every phew thread you start.

Mike
Since it costs 2.72’ to produce a penny, putting in your 2’ if really worth 5.44’.

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2018, 07:11:55 PM »
What more can I explain? Even Mike don't dare to explain pi.

What makes pi "seems" true is not the pi itself.
It's the calculation of radius as well as the angle, which has nothing to do with anything in an arch length. Just claims.
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #153 on: September 25, 2018, 07:14:20 PM »
Rabinoz: "Congratulations!"

>> Thank you so much, Rab. Phew is indeed really really cool.  8)
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #154 on: September 25, 2018, 07:36:03 PM »
Try again, Jack.
Why?
You failed to object to any point or provide a reason why there is any issue.
Now what do you think the problem is?
Can you tell me exactly what point you disagree with?

Of course the series method with wrong assumption of arch length position. I've mentioned it repeatedly.
Series conclusion isn't identical with arch length reality. Pi as a product of series gets error in length measurement. Hardly pi experiments gives measurement that close to 3.14 coz it's a bit shorter than it should be.
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

rabinoz

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #155 on: September 25, 2018, 08:29:58 PM »
Try again, Jack.
Why?
You failed to object to any point or provide a reason why there is any issue.
Now what do you think the problem is?
Can you tell me exactly what point you disagree with?
Of course the series method with wrong assumption of arch length position. I've mentioned it repeatedly.
Series conclusion isn't identical with arch length reality. Pi as a product of series gets error in length measurement. Hardly pi
Who cares about your arches? π is defined as (circumference/diameter) of a circle.
Measurement always introduce errors. Someone posting on Yahoo tried to measure a CD.
Quote
Funny thing: I actually physically measured this, and found that the diameter is indeed exactly 12 cm, but that the actual physical circumference is exactly 37.59 cm. According to My trusty calculator, and Google's calculator, dividing this circumference by this diameter gives Us, not 3.1419... , but, instead, exactly 3.1325. 
I am sure I will be investigating this Pi thing a little further...
An error like that is not surprising and proves nothing.

Quote from: Danang
experiments gives measurement that close to 3.14 coz it's a bit shorter than it should be.
Likewise, your 3.14 differs from tne correct value of π by only 1 part on about 2000 and that's very good.
But measurements can only give limited accuracy, so for more accurate values of π we must use some mathematical method and all these lead to some sort of series.

If you are interested in learning something you might read Wolfram Mathworld, Pi Formulas, otherwise just keep trolling.
Really, danang, everyone else here except you seems to know and understand π.

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JackBlack

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #156 on: September 25, 2018, 08:34:39 PM »
What more can I explain? Even Mike don't dare to explain pi.
How about why anyone should doubt the known value of pi or why anyone should take your value seriously?

I have provided a derivation of pi, with you not objecting to any step.
If you think some part of it is wrong, explain exactly what.
That means pointing out exactly what step you disagree with.

It's the calculation of radius as well as the angle, which has nothing to do with anything in an arch length.
This shows you either have no idea what you are talking about or are just spouting crap.
The angle has almost everything to do with the arc length.

Of course the series method with wrong assumption of arch length position. I've mentioned it repeatedly.
The series is only indirectly related to the arc length.
If you object to the series, the one you have to object to is that used in my derivation. That is the series expansion for (1-x^2)^(-1/2).
But you can easily test that expansion.

Again, the expansion is:
(1-x^2)^(-1/2)=sum((((2*n)!/((2^(2*n))*((n!)^2)))*x^(2*n)) from n=0 to infinity, which holds while |x|<1, and x!=0, as that requires the first term being slightly different as you would otherwise get 0^0, but noting that would simply be no number there at all, it still works.
For example, using x=0.5, x^2=0.25. 1-x^2=0.75=3/4. (3/4)^(-1/2)=2/sqrt(3)=1.154700538379
Then looking at the sum itself, we end up with 1.154700538379 at n=20.
You can try it with any other number and it works, some just take more time to converge.

So clearly the series is not the problem.

Hardly pi experiments gives measurement that close to 3.14 coz it's a bit shorter than it should be.
As you have already effectively admitted, measurements are prone to error.
Regardless, if they are getting a value lower than the known value of pi, why are you suggesting a value which is higher?

Now either point out exactly what step you object to, with an explanation of why; or admit pi is correct and phew is nonsense; or remain silent and never bring it up again.

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #157 on: September 25, 2018, 11:25:54 PM »
I admit he is much more fluent in Javanese language than me. I bet he will be also interested if introduced with Phew language.~

• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2018, 12:08:40 AM »
"Now either point out exactly what step you object to, with an explanation of why"

>> if the set up is wrong, the result will be wrong too. Assumption cannot resist real occurings.


"or admit pi is correct and phew is nonsense; or remain silent and never bring it up again."

>> "Remain silent" ? That's not a scientific statement. So...  Phew Wins. ~
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

JackBlack

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2018, 12:52:20 AM »
>> if the set up is wrong, the result will be wrong too. Assumption cannot resist real occurings.
The steps were going through the setup as well.
Now what step do you think is wrong?

>> "Remain silent" ? That's not a scientific statement.
That's right, it is a statement telling you to spouting nonsense.
Also, pi isn't science. It is math.
In science and math you don't just repeatedly assert nonsense, ignoring all refutations. If you have an objection you make it quite clear what the objection is, you would also provide your own derivation/argument showing why you think your value is correct.

So if you aren't going to act like a rational adult and either accept pi or explain exactly what step you disagree with, then remain silent as you are contributing nothing of value.

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2018, 02:51:00 AM »
"everyone else here except you seems to know and understand π."

>> being understood is not necessarily  being right: pi, globe etc.~
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2018, 03:01:21 AM »
If a method results a wrong measurement in real world, this method should be rejected.

Any serie which results pi=3.14159, it has come to a stage that has victimized a number of abandoned fractions. That's why in measurement 2pi.r is always inadequate to reach the real C.
The more series performed the more abandoned fractions created. Each fraction might be super tiny. But there are many of it so as to dump as much as 2(phew-pi)*r.
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

JackBlack

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2018, 03:54:45 AM »
>> being understood is not necessarily  being right: pi, globe etc.~
Yes, they are examples of things which some people might struggle to understand, while still being right.
You not understanding them doesn't mean they are wrong.

If a method results a wrong measurement in real world, this method should be rejected.
No it shouldn't.
It should be examined in detail to see what went wrong to improve our understanding.
We need to find out why it doesn't work.
If it doesn't match, there must be a fault in the reasoning.

But who cares, that doesn't apply to pi.
All real measurements have associated errors, which means the value still matches pi even if the actual value calculated doesn't perfectly match.

That's why in measurement 2pi.r is always inadequate to reach the real C.
Except it does match, for any decently  performed experiments.
So no, 2*pi*r is adequate.

The more series
Again, the series is not for pi directly. It is for (1-x^2)^(-1/2). We can see that that series does match. As such your objection is meaningless.

Now, what point to you object to.
Be specific on the exact point.
I provided you with 60 of them.

Why are you unable to point out a single one that is wrong?
Is it because I have made them almost impossible to refute, especially with disconnecting the series from pi?

Provide the first point you disagree with and explain why you think it is wrong. If you can't, then you have no ground to stand upon and should either admit your mistake or remain silent.

?

frenat

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2018, 05:27:52 AM »
If a method results a wrong measurement in real world, this method should be rejected.

Any serie which results pi=3.14159, it has come to a stage that has victimized a number of abandoned fractions. That's why in measurement 2pi.r is always inadequate to reach the real C.
The more series performed the more abandoned fractions created. Each fraction might be super tiny. But there are many of it so as to dump as much as 2(phew-pi)*r.

either you don't have any clue what you're talking about, or you're trolling, or both.

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markjo

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2018, 09:30:44 AM »
If a method results a wrong measurement in real world, this method should be rejected.
The real world uses the currently accepted value of pi all the time and doesn't seem complain about wrong measurements.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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MicroBeta

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #165 on: September 26, 2018, 02:54:41 PM »
What more can I explain? Even Mike don't dare to explain pi.

What makes pi "seems" true is not the pi itself.
It's the calculation of radius as well as the angle, which has nothing to do with anything in an arch length. Just claims.
I posted questions that if phew were true you could answer.  But, you're too afraid to take on the challenge because you don't have the balls to backup your claims.  Either answer the questions or admit you have no clue what you're talking about.

Mike
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 02:59:30 PM by MicroBeta »
Since it costs 2.72’ to produce a penny, putting in your 2’ if really worth 5.44’.

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #166 on: September 27, 2018, 05:10:26 AM »
Breaking news:
Old CD was broken and I performed phew experiment again with this new CD.
And you know what?
I almost lost my faith in Phew, coz this CD is pro Pi. In other words: I almost believed in Pi.  :o
BUT..
After I measured the diameter, I found its length is actually UNDER 12 CM !!!

So I continued my faith in PHEW.  8)


• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #167 on: September 27, 2018, 05:18:23 AM »
I hope this breaking news can answer Markjo's post above.

Verification matters.
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

markjo

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #168 on: September 27, 2018, 06:29:16 AM »
I hope this breaking news can answer Markjo's post above.

Verification matters.
What tools did you use to make your measurements?  What was the actual diameter that you measured?  What was the actual circumference that you measured?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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MicroBeta

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #169 on: September 27, 2018, 09:03:41 AM »
Breaking news:
Old CD was broken and I performed phew experiment again with this new CD.
And you know what?
I almost lost my faith in Phew, coz this CD is pro Pi. In other words: I almost believed in Pi.  :o
BUT..
After I measured the diameter, I found its length is actually UNDER 12 CM !!!

So I continued my faith in PHEW.  8)


There you go ignoring the answer again.  You really are afraid to answer...that's ok.  We all know you can't handle it.
Since it costs 2.72’ to produce a penny, putting in your 2’ if really worth 5.44’.

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JackBlack

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #170 on: September 27, 2018, 02:00:08 PM »
After I measured
And thanks for once again showing that measurement is a stupid way to try and figure it out.

Now can you tell us which of the 60 points you disagree with?

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JackBlack

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2018, 02:19:17 PM »
What tools did you use to make your measurements?  What was the actual diameter that you measured?  What was the actual circumference that you measured?
And potentially more importantly, what was the accuracy of those measurements?

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MicroBeta

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2018, 05:11:50 PM »
What tools did you use to make your measurements?  What was the actual diameter that you measured?  What was the actual circumference that you measured?
And potentially more importantly, what was the accuracy of those measurements?
If he's using the same ruler/tape for both measurements it should still get a ratio to within three decimal places.  I just took a CD and the measuring tape from my sewing kit with the smallest increment of 0.1 cm.  I got 3.14167 sitting here in in my living room...that's about the least accurate way to do this and I still get 3.141ish.  Using more accurate means of measurement I get 3.1415ish without much effort.  Heck, elementary school students using rulers and discs get 3.141...nobody has ever gotten 3.17157.

IMHO, the fact Denang keeps claiming he gets 3.17157 when he measures a CD is a flat out lie and he's just a common troll.

Mike
Since it costs 2.72’ to produce a penny, putting in your 2’ if really worth 5.44’.

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2018, 07:29:31 PM »
This is my method to verify the diameter.
By slicing the hole evenly of course -- but don't confuse with the paper.
Try this at home  8).


• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2018, 07:32:33 PM »
I think frenat needs to improve his rhetoric. Learning from Mike is okay. ~
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

markjo

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #175 on: September 27, 2018, 08:05:37 PM »
This is my method to verify the diameter.
By slicing the hole evenly of course -- but don't confuse with the paper.
Try this at home  8).


Great. Now how did you measure the circumference?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

JackBlack

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #176 on: September 27, 2018, 08:52:12 PM »
This is my method to verify the diameter.
So, what do you claim the diameter is and to what degree of accuracy?

And again, which point do you disagree with?
You are yet to say any, so the only rational conclusion is that you have no objection and thus must rationally accept that pi is what people claim, not your phew BS.

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Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #177 on: September 28, 2018, 12:11:41 AM »
This is my method to verify the diameter.
By slicing the hole evenly of course -- but don't confuse with the paper.
Try this at home  8).


Great. Now how did you measure the circumference?

As usual, supposing you measure D & C with the right precision, you'll fine D times 3.17157 will be C.
By manual way you might get a very shorter result than it should be, due to unstraight path or 'slipped' etc. But its difference is not as visible as C in pi calculation.
Perhaps the diameter is around 11.92cm which gives C=37.8 cm.

For any size, Phew works all the time. I use ruler and a material that by default has lines >> Sarung  ;D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 01:39:23 AM by Danang »
• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

Danang

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #178 on: September 28, 2018, 12:15:50 AM »
Sarung  8)

• South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map
• Downwards Universal Deceleration.

Phew's Silicon Valley: https://gwebanget.home.blog/

*

JackBlack

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Re: Tangent & C Relation: 3.14159 vs Phew's 3.17157
« Reply #179 on: September 28, 2018, 01:18:16 AM »
As usual, supposing you measure D & C with the right precision, you'll fine D times 3.17157 will be C.
For any size, Phew works all the time.
So far you are the only person I have found to be claiming this.
Everyone else indicates you get pi, or some number which agrees with pi when you consider the experiment uncertainty.
You also have no reason to expect that number while the math clearly indicates pi.

Again, what point do you disagree with?
If you don't disagree with any you have no choice but to accept pi.

I use ruler and a material that by default has lines >> Sarung  ;D
So you used an intrinsically flexible material with no clear way to ensure it remains the same size, i.e. one of the worst possible ways imaginable?
Meanwhile, I used a sheet of paper, to which a think strip of rubber tape was adhered, with this tape then placed on the side of a desk and a solid, flat piece of plastic placed against it. I rolled the CD along the strip, flat with the table to prevent any zig-zagging, with a decent force pressing the plastic into the tape to ensure there was no slippage. I ended up with a value of 3.125, significantly lower than your BS.

Now, state exactly what point of the derivation you disagree with and why, or shut up and get lost.