Ship "Curvature" experiment with an addition

Quote from: Curiouser and Curiouser on August 30, 2018, 08:12:30 AM

Quote from: napoleon on August 30, 2018, 04:08:48 AM

I can easily pick the fake ones out just by googling the coordinates of the city...if the given angle does not match the latitude of the city, then the given info is fake.

Excellent example of begging the question.

I didn't like that suggestion that much either.
but what do you say of my original post? the ship and the helicopter.
Will that work to prove / disprove a flat earth?

Always ready with lame excuses for not participating...and mmab admits to it way too fast.

Let us say New York...with coordinates around 40.7128° N, 74.0060° W
So, the angle of the polar star in and around new york should be 40.7° always...throughout the whole night, month and the whole year round. with some tolerance, any value between 39° and 42° would be OK.
(For reference, Baltimore (Maryland) is around 39°N and Boston (Massachusetts) is around 42°.
So any other value for the angle of the polar star in new york outside the range of 39°-42° would be either fake or inaccurate.
Now, there are more than 8mln people living in New York City. everyone of them could observe, check and measure that for themselves, that is no secret and surely not something which can be faked. if you do not trust the coordinate system, just go out and measure it...you will see you will come to this value yourself.
besides, if this did not match, don't you think no one would notice? especially FE-community would notice that and they would use it as Nr 1 evidence for lying NASA and complot theories.

So in no way "begging the question"...join the experiment and do not wimp out.

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 08:40:23 AM

Quote from: Curiouser and Curiouser on August 30, 2018, 08:12:30 AM

Quote from: napoleon on August 30, 2018, 04:08:48 AM

I can easily pick the fake ones out just by googling the coordinates of the city...if the given angle does not match the latitude of the city, then the given info is fake.

Excellent example of begging the question.

I didn't like that suggestion that much either.
but what do you say of my original post? the ship and the helicopter.
Will that work to prove / disprove a flat earth?

Always ready with lame excuses for not participating...and mmab admits to it way too fast.

Let us say New York...with coordinates around 40.7128° N, 74.0060° W
So, the angle of the polar star in and around new york should be 40.7° always...throughout the whole night, month and the whole year round. with some tolerance, any value between 39° and 42° would be OK.
(For reference, Baltimore (Maryland) is around 39°N and Boston (Massachusetts) is around 42°.
So any other value for the angle of the polar star in new york outside the range of 39°-42° would be either fake or inaccurate.
Now, there are more than 8mln people living in New York City. everyone of them could observe, check and measure that for themselves, that is no secret and surely not something which can be faked. if you do not trust the coordinate system, just go out and measure it...you will see you will come to this value yourself.
besides, if this did not match, don't you think no one would notice? especially FE-community would notice that and they would use it as Nr 1 evidence for lying NASA and complot theories.

So in no way "begging the question"...join the experiment and do not wimp out.

Begging the question is a logical fallacy that is a type of circular reasoning.

It happens when you use the assumed conclusion of what you are trying to prove as an argument that the thing is true. (E.g., A is true because an equivalent to A is true)

Your attempt to beg the question:

1. I want to prove that the earth is round.
2. Latitude values were created by people who used a round earth model.
3. I will check that the latitude values are correct by taking additional data from observers.
4. Any data that does not conform to the pre-existing round earth model is fake and is discarded.
5. All remaining data will be used to prove the earth is round.

I.e., the earth is round because the earth is round.

Begging the question.


Using your argument, there's no reason to even have any observers report at all. If any values other than the published values are fake, then use the published values. The map is accurate because the map is accurate.

Begging the question.

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 03:35:08 PM

Quote from: Curiouser and Curiouser on August 30, 2018, 02:59:55 PM

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 01:18:07 PM

Quote from: Curiouser and Curiouser on August 30, 2018, 01:09:35 PM

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 11:57:43 AM

Can the experiment I suggested prove / disprove the flat earth theory or not?

No.

What is the reason the answer is no?

1. Your "experiment" assumes light always travels in straight lines.
2. Your "experiment" is valid over a minuscule fraction of the earth's surface, and in one direction only.
3. Reading topics on this web site is sufficient to show considerable disagreement about what is seen at distance, including on the ocean.
4. Reading topics on this web site is sufficient to show considerable disagreement about what form the flat earth takes.
5. A single experiment is rarely justification to "prove" a physical phenomenon.

What does it have to do with light moving in straight lines? if someone is in front of another thing it will block you view of it. unless you suggest somehow the light will bounce in one direction then another with an ending result of you able to see an object behind another one and not the object nearer to you (so in my example you can see the helicopter but not the ship. will it be seen in a different locations? both of them in sight?)
I will be very happy to see something like this happening. do you have any experiment where something like that occurs?

Ever see a mirage?

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 03:35:08 PM

it is valid everywhere if the curvuture exist as round earthes think. and will be valid anyways on sea as the water always find level and if the earth is flat all the way.
one direction is for the line of sight, but you can repeat multiple times. it should always give the same result on a flat earth (unless you say there are many places where it isn't flat, meaning you need an adjusted theory for a "nearly" flat earth.

So you're arguing that proving an arc over a tiny distance proves a full circle? Or now you're moving the goalposts by changing the experiment from one instance to ten? A hundred? A thousand? A hundred thousand? A million?

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 03:35:08 PM

it doesn't matter what is seen at distance. the fact that one object will hide from view the one far from it is always true (can you see what is right behine a wall or a building? even if they are very far away?)

I'd suggest you read the numerous topics here about how various people interpret what is seen at distance.

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 03:35:08 PM

I thought that flat earth means the earth is.... well... flat. Can you please show me what is the form you are talking about?

I don't think you'll find a single poster here who thinks the earth is so flat uniformly that a ship could not be visually hidden by another portion of the earth.

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 03:35:08 PM

single sure. maybe there was a mistake of some sort. do it multiple times at multiple places. now will it hold?

How many? Where? Under what conditions? You haven't given this a bit of thought. Ugh. You asked whether your "experiment" was sufficient to prove / disprove flat earth. I told you some reasons why it wasn't. Now comes the infinite moving goalposts to try to fix a bad proposition.

So in how many places is the earth not flat? all over the ocean? only them?
I am trying to understand and believe but keep on getting different models.
and doesn't a not fully flat earth cause issues with the low Sun for example?
I am trying to picture it and understand the science of it all... but keep getting different answers from different people here.

Quote from: mmab on August 30, 2018, 03:35:08 PM

What does it have to do with light moving in straight lines? if someone is in front of another thing it will block you view of it.

Lets assume light doesn't travel in straight lines and instead curves upwards, just for magic.
Now your helicopter is no longer at the same level as the boat.
The light from the helicopter starts off high going downwards and then curves upwards, going past the boat and then to your eyes.
As the boat sails away, it is no longer in the path.
Additionally, in order for the light to reach your eyes from the boat it would need to head down, and start curving up, passing through Earth in the process, making it appear to sink below the horizon.

Basically, this magic bendy light predicts the exact same results as a round Earth, it is just instead of Earth curving, light does.
Likewise, magic perspective does the same (and would require bendy light).

Oh... that can explain it. but why doesn't it work on closer ranges? or it does, but in such a small scale that I can't feel it until I get far enough? So Optics is actually wrong? light will start bend at some point without any reflection causing instrument (like a mirror)?
Can this be explained in some formula and be tested?

I am trying to understand and believe ...

Understand? OK. Believe? I suspect that is not the truth.

but keep getting different answers from different people here.

Ahhh. Now you understand.

So any other value for the angle of the polar star in new york outside the range of 39°-42° would be either fake or inaccurate.

The problem is you are going based upon a RE and common knowledge to make that claim.
If you are going to do that, your experiment is pointless and you may as well just assert Earth is round and be done with it.

If you wanted to honestly run the experiment you can definitely note it as an outlier (assuming you have enough other data points), but you can't just dismiss it as fake because it doesn't fit what you want.

Oh... that can explain it. but why doesn't it work on closer ranges? or it does, but in such a small scale that I can't feel it until I get far enough? So Optics is actually wrong? light will start bend at some point without any reflection causing instrument (like a mirror)?
Can this be explained in some formula and be tested?

Pretty much as you suggested, it works at all ranges, but the effects are so small for small scales you don't notice.
The bending of light over 1 m would be basically nothing, but over several km it starts to become significant resulting in the bottom of ships and buildings getting hidden for an observer standing near the shore. Over thousands of km it becomes so great that the sun appears to go below Earth as well.

The FEers don't have any formula for this or explanation. If they did make one it would likely match that expected for a round Earth.

It is inherently problematic to test. It requires getting a long straight baseless to determine if light curves. Typically to achieve this long straight baseline one would use light, but if light bends you get a curved baseline.