About the numbers.

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Daemonaetea

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About the numbers.
« on: January 09, 2007, 07:00:13 PM »
You want us to believe you are right, that the Earth really is flat.

Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of scientists the world over hold the world is round.  All our understanding is based on this.  Geology, especially, would be hard hit to learn it is wrong.  Our understanding of waves, earthquakes, plate techtonics is based on a round Earth.

Besides this, what we have works.  It all makes sense inside the confines of a round Earth.  It is consistant with everything we have observed, and can be explained with natural causes.  The sun does not do a circuit in the sky.  Rather, it is only a star, and we orbit it.  This behavior is mirrored elsewhere in the universe.  The other planets are round.  Everything fits.

Then we come to your model.

You ask us to believe that the Earth is flat.  This contradicts everything we have come to understand of the way it works, what scientists have learned.  But of course, they are part of the Conspiracy.  It contradicts the views we have seen in pictures taken from space, the majestic view of the Earth as seen from the moon.  But, of course, they were faked by the Conspiracy.  You tell us that there is a giant wall of ice surrounding the flat Earth.  But of course, we have never seen it... because of the Conspiracy.

A Conspiracy that even you don't understand.  What could possibly be gained, why they formed... even you, the believers, don't know, have no logical reasoning.  But still, you expect us to believe.

Numbers.  

You tell us that hundreds of years of knowledge is wrong.

You tell us that tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of our fellows humans are lieing to us.

You tell us of a massive Conspiracy that, defying logic and everything that we would seem to observe around us, exists, unifying the world for one deadly mission:  To Hide The Earth Is Flat.

I hope you understand my... reservations.

I can understand why one might be drawn to the Flat Earth.  It is the same reason Copernicus's model was so resisted, that of the Earth orbiting the sun rather than the other way around.

Because it means we're special.

You would like to believe that we stand at the center, literally, of creation.  That out of the entire universe, we are special.


To anyone that actually read that whole thing, I pity you.  I am dreadfully tired, and equally dread what that must read like.  I would look it over, but I am in no condition to this evening.  Sorry for the long rant, I get like this before exhaustion takes me.

To everyone, regardless of their belief in the roundness of the Earth,

Good night.

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EvilToothpaste

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About the numbers.
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 07:49:34 PM »
What I find interesting about this discussion group is the fact that a significant majority of people -- regardless of what it is they actually believe -- have no idea how to prove their ideas, do not know why they hold their beliefs, and simply get frustrated and call each other names.  

I'm here just to look at evidence we can actually work with right here and now.  Another thing that scares me, but I'm not surprised about, is how number illiterate many people are.  One cannot understand ANYTHING that is a significant amount bigger OR smaller than we are without knowing how much bigger or smaller.  

One example is the difference between a million and a billion:  One million seconds is about 12 days.  One billion seconds, however, is 32 years.  

Another example:  the average height of a human (we'll just say 6 feet) and the average diameter of the Earth (42 million feet).

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Tom Bishop

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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 07:52:16 PM »
We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?

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FastEddy

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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 08:10:28 PM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?

Oh jesus christ. Got to a goddamn library. I assume you didn't go to school, because you wouldn't be asking that question if you had.

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Tom Bishop

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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 08:15:20 PM »
Quote from: "FastEddy"
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?

Oh jesus christ. Got to a goddamn library. I assume you didn't go to school, because you wouldn't be asking that question if you had.


I don't see why the earth has to be round just because it's written in a book or an underpaid, undereducated school teacher says it is. I have seen nothing that proves the earth to be actually round, and everything that proves it to be flat.

Round Earth theory is all hearsay. There are also books and seminars which explain the creation of the world through means of a magical fairy. Just as much proof is given. Should I believe them too?

I would like to see evidence for this round earth, as well as experiments I could personally preform to verify this "Round Earth" theory.

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EvilToothpaste

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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 08:37:37 PM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?


Hey buddy, I've been throwing round shit in your face for days now.  Have you been listening?

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bullhorn

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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 08:53:27 PM »
Story's of Ghosts and Goblins are fun to read just as it is fun to read about a Round Earth

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Tom Bishop

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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 08:57:48 PM »
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?


Hey buddy, I've been throwing round shit in your face for days now.  Have you been listening?


I'm sorry "EvilToothpaste," but nothing you have said on this forum demonstrates the roundness of the earth. You've provided some sort of amature proof saying that the sea level should drop 70 feet per 20 miles, yet you cannot adequately explain why the curvature of the earth is not apparent on an ocean horizon which stretches one hundred miles in length. According to your little proof you posted in another thread the sea level should have dropped 350 feet. That's as tall as a 35 story building. Yet the hundred mile horizon is as straight as a razor.

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TheEngineer

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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2007, 09:20:23 PM »
Quote from: "Daemonaetea"
You want us to believe you are right, that the Earth really is flat.
Do we?  I don't remember going to the Round Earth Society and telling you how wrong you are and how all your theories are stupid.  If I remember correctly, you came here, to force your beliefs on us.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Pope Mouth I

About the numbers.
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 09:22:28 PM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?

What are you, retarded or something?

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EvilToothpaste

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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 09:51:43 PM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
I'm sorry "EvilToothpaste," but nothing you have said on this forum demonstrates the roundness of the earth. You've provided some sort of amature proof saying that the sea level should drop 70 feet per 20 miles, yet you cannot adequately explain why the curvature of the earth is not apparent on an ocean horizon which stretches one hundred miles in length. According to your little proof you posted in another thread the sea level should have dropped 7,000 feet. That's over a mile below sea level. Yet the hundred mile horizon is as straight as a razor.


Now it's important that you visualize this properly in order to understand what I am talking about.  I'm not trying to talk down to you, but I am merely trying to be straight and forward and simple.  

You're not understanding the sphericity of the Round Earth.  The edges of a picture would only drop off on a 'cylindrical' Earth.  I know that's confusing, but just stay with me.  My proof is correct:  objects do drop off like that.  However, just because it drops off does not mean that a horizon is going to curve down toward the edges of a picture.  

Ask yourself, where are these "edges" of the horizon you are talking about in your picture?  There are no "edges" in reality, right?  Does it matter which direction you point your camera?  No, it does not.  The horizon is the same flatness all the way around.

Picture your self on the ocean looking at the horizon.  Now look all the way around yourself.  three-hundred and sixty degrees.  

Have you looked around?  Okan, now you just looked in a circle.  

Let me stress this point that was proved in another thread:  you can see some amount of distance directly in front of you.  When you turn your head along the horizon, your eye-line is traversing a path that is a specific distance away from you.  Just like in this picture

This path that is traversed is flat, right?  The horizon is flat.  Now picture the spherical Earth and the place you were standing.  The path traversed by your eyes is actually a circle on the surface of the sphere, is it not?  

This path traversed by your eye-line all around is the horizon, and the horizon is a circle on the sphere of the earth.  This is because at every point around you, the distance I calculated in the other thread is the same at every direction you look.  You are at the center of a circle of the horizon.  

now it is flat because you are unbelievably smaller than this circle.  Like I said before:  you are 6 feet tall, the Earth is 42,000,000 feet in diameter.  Your height is negligible.  You can't 'see' anything, really.

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EvilToothpaste

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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 09:54:53 PM »
Now I have a LOT LOT LOT more to say, but I have to go drink beer.  I do not drink beer because I am an alcoholic:  I drink beer because I am but a white speck of dust on an immense white beach.  (that's not supposed to sound racist....)

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Dioptimus Drime

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Re: About the numbers.
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 10:03:44 PM »
Quote from: "Daemonaetea"
You want us to believe you are right, that the Earth really is flat.

Frankly, I don't really care. Believe what you want; it doesn't make it any more correct.

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Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of scientists the world over hold the world is round.  All our understanding is based on this.  Geology, especially, would be hard hit to learn it is wrong.  Our understanding of waves, earthquakes, plate techtonics is based on a round Earth.

Not entirely true. Most things, you'll find, work very similar on a flat Earth as they would on a round one.

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Besides this, what we have works.  It all makes sense inside the confines of a round Earth.  It is consistant with everything we have observed, and can be explained with natural causes.  The sun does not do a circuit in the sky.  Rather, it is only a star, and we orbit it.  This behavior is mirrored elsewhere in the universe.  The other planets are round.  Everything fits.

It works if you try to make sense of half-assed theories like "gravity" and the idea of a ball flying through a vacuum at hundreds of miles per hour, sure.

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You ask us to believe that the Earth is flat.  This contradicts everything we have come to understand of the way it works, what scientists have learned.  But of course, they are part of the Conspiracy.  It contradicts the views we have seen in pictures taken from space, the majestic view of the Earth as seen from the moon.  But, of course, they were faked by the Conspiracy.  You tell us that there is a giant wall of ice surrounding the flat Earth.  But of course, we have never seen it... because of the Conspiracy.

Again, nobody's asking you to believe in it. And the scientists aren't part of the conspiracy (well, not the majority of them; maybe two or three are). All that it contradicts is some pictures that could honestly quite easily be faked. You must admit, photographs are HARDLY reliable sources for information.


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A Conspiracy that even you don't understand.  What could possibly be gained, why they formed... even you, the believers, don't know, have no logical reasoning.  But still, you expect us to believe.

This is what I came up with. Some valid reasons for the conspiracy to be formed, how they could stay together, etcetera. And the conspiracy idea is based on logical reasoning, because of the fact that if the Earth is flat, and somebody's telling us that it's round, SOMEBODY is lying.

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Numbers.  

You tell us that hundreds of years of knowledge is wrong.

You tell us that tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of our fellows humans are lieing to us.

It's happened before.

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You tell us of a massive Conspiracy that, defying logic and everything that we would seem to observe around us, exists, unifying the world for one deadly mission:  To Hide The Earth Is Flat.

Everything you observe makes you think the Earth is round? I'd like to contradict that statement. To me, it looks pretty darned flat.

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I hope you understand my... reservations.

Indeed, it's a different theory.

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I can understand why one might be drawn to the Flat Earth.  It is the same reason Copernicus's model was so resisted, that of the Earth orbiting the sun rather than the other way around.

Because it means we're special.

You would like to believe that we stand at the center, literally, of creation.  That out of the entire universe, we are special.

That's not necessarily why those who believe in it do believe in it. It's via a zetetic system where you go on unbiased results to figure out the actual shape of the Earth. And the Earth wouldn't have to be flat to imply geocentrism either. There would be plenty of other models if that was the only reason people wanted to believe in it.


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To anyone that actually read that whole thing, I pity you.  I am dreadfully tired, and equally dread what that must read like.  I would look it over, but I am in no condition to this evening.  Sorry for the long rant, I get like this before exhaustion takes me.

To everyone, regardless of their belief in the roundness of the Earth,

Good night.


Heh...Don't worry about it. You're far better than the majority we get around here.

~D-Draw

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phaseshifter

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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 11:32:57 PM »
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Another example: the average height of a human (we'll just say 6 feet) and the average diameter of the Earth (42 million feet


I've never met anyone who confused the 2.

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We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?


Your eyes count as proof?

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There are also books and seminars which explain the creation of the world through means of a magical fairy. Just as much proof is given. Should I believe them too?


Well, I 've never heard of them, but that comparison makes no sense. Can you show that they have "just as much proof" as the RE model? Can that magical phenomenon be observed elswhere in the universe? Can it be reproduced on a smaller scale?

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I would like to see evidence for this round earth, as well as experiments I could personally preform to verify this "Round Earth" theory.


Whether you can personally perform those experiments is irrelevant to their validity. The universe will keep existing despite the fact that you cannot reproduce it's creation yourself. Plus, if you are too stupid to perform the experiment correctly, or understand it, it's validity will be lost on you.
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

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EvilToothpaste

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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2007, 02:35:36 AM »
Let me put a little more detail into my argument:

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you cannot adequately explain why the curvature of the earth is not apparent on an ocean horizon which stretches one hundred miles in length.


Perhaps you have just never listened long enough to adequately understand why?  What follows is a great opportunity for you.  

Tell me, exactly how far does this ocean horizon stretch, in length, outside of your picture.  How far?  Tell me if I'm wrong:  360 degrees.  All the way around.  That does not necessarily mean the Earth is flat.  It does not mean the Earth is spherical.  It does not mean it is square.  It could be infinite.  It could be a trapezoid.  But it could not be very small.  Right?  

What it does mean is that you can see all the way around yourself.  Congratulations: that which you observe does not mean a damn thing, and you cannot come to a single conclusion about where you are or what you are standing on.  You're in the same sinking boat as all of us.  But do not be discouraged; we have an ability to organize many different observations all at once to better understand what it is we are doing, where we really are, and how to get somewhere we have never been.  We will use this ability henceforth to assemble a picture of what it is we are standing on.  

Lets assume first we are standing on a perfectly flat disk that is 16000 miles in diameter.  Almost anywhere on the surface is fine for us to stand, because  the chaotic atmosphere only allows us to see 25 miles in any direction.  Now think hard about this:  can one actually 'see' the horizon of this surface?  Can one see a definite line encircling oneself?  

Think about the chaotic atmosphere.  As you look further and further away, the surface gets cloudier and dimmer, until it blends in with the sky.  There is no line of horizon in this model.  There is only a gradient blending the surface into the sky.  

Just like this:


Even if one assumes they can see 1000 miles through the atmosphere, there still will not be a definite line of horizon on a flat Earth model because of the diffusion of the atmosphere (that's a funny word for a flat Earth:  atmosphere.  You should make up a new one).  

Now lets say you are 10 feet tall, standing on the top of a sphere 8000 miles in diameter.  As I proved previously, the horizon is 5.5 miles in radius (that means in every direction around you; 360 degrees).  You can physically see farther than that (how far does not matter), but the highest point of the ocean in your line-of-sight before it declines downward is 5.5 miles away.  This makes a very definite, sharp line of horizon before the chaotic atmosphere interferes.  

Now about that horizon:  Let's find out just how curved it is on a spherical Earth:

The height of a spherical cap (as depicted below by the "small circle" image) with a small-circle radius of 5.5 miles and a spherical radius of 4000 miles (8000 mile diameter) is another easy Pythagorean triangle:



(4000 - x)^2 + 5.5^2 = 4000^2 ; (where x is the distance from the blue plane to the top of the sphere)

Solving with Mathematica yields a height of 19.965 feet.  

That means that you, at an altitude of ten feet, are about a total of 30 feet higher than the plane of the horizon.  Keep in mind the horizon is 5.5 miles away.  That is, 29,000 feet away, which puts the horizon at a declination of:

arcsin(30/29000) = 0.06 degrees from the horizontal.  

If you don't think that angle is very small, take out your protractor and try to draw two lines 0.06 degrees apart.  They will end up looking like a single fat line on one end (even if your protractor had that great of precision).  That is because 30 feet is very small compared to 30,000 feet.  As I've said a number of times before:  understanding scale is key to understanding anything larger or smaller than yourself.  I guarantee that if you cannot quantify it then you cannot understand it.

That is why one cannot ever hope to notice the curvature of the earth by just looking at the horizon; it is negligible.  The Earth is huge, and we are not.

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TheEngineer

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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2007, 07:36:05 AM »
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"

That is why one cannot ever hope to notice the curvature of the earth by just looking at the horizon; it is negligible.  The Earth is huge, and we are not.

Isn't this what we've been saying all along?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

About the numbers.
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2007, 07:47:30 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"

That is why one cannot ever hope to notice the curvature of the earth by just looking at the horizon; it is negligible.  The Earth is huge, and we are not.


I don't know about you but I'm pretty huge. Ha sorry first thing that came to mind when I read That
quot;But being poor, I have only my dreams. I spread my dreams under your feet. Tread softly, Because you tread on my dreams."
Equilibrium

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EvilToothpaste

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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2007, 09:34:12 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Isn't this what we've been saying all along?


I don't know when you joined the discussion, but I was responding to this:

Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
you cannot adequately explain why the curvature of the earth is not apparent on an ocean horizon which stretches one hundred miles in length.


...wherein I went on and explained why the curvature of the Earth is not apparent on an ocean horizon which stretches miles in length.  

Also, I explained how a Flat Earth would have no distinct horizon.

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EvilToothpaste

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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007, 09:35:38 AM »
Quote from: ToolinYourFace
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"

That is why one cannot ever hope to notice the curvature of the earth by just looking at the horizon; it is negligible.  The Earth is huge, and we are not.


I don't know about you but I'm pretty huge. Ha sorry first thing that came to mind when I read That


You should be a member of the Fat Earth Society, HA!

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rofl

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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2007, 09:37:25 AM »
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We believe that the earth is flat because of what our eyes and experience tell us. Where is your proof that the earth is round?


Yarr, what you see is what you get?
fft who needs evidence when you can just say it's a conspiracy.
/Sigh
Wise words of
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BOGWarrior89

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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2007, 09:46:47 AM »
Quote from: "Some dumbass that thought TheEngineer is ToolinYourFace"
Quote from: "ToolinYourFace"
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"

That is why one cannot ever hope to notice the curvature of the earth by just looking at the horizon; it is negligible.  The Earth is huge, and we are not.


I don't know about you but I'm pretty huge. Ha sorry first thing that came to mind when I read That


This should be called The Fat Earth Society, HA!


What the hell is wrong with your ability to quote?

This IS the Flat Earth Society.

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Daemonaetea

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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2007, 09:57:12 AM »
A few replies.

You are, of course, perfectly right.  This is your forum.  We, the round Earthers, are the outsiders here.  And, at any given time, I will leave if I am so asked.  It would be rude otherwise.

And no, you do not try to convince us in the manner that we try to convince you.  You do not go to other websites to argue your case.  I am speaking more in the sense of the arguments we have here, where we plead our case and you respond to yours.  I apologize for making it sound otherwise.

Now, on to one of the arguments.

You comment that it is readily aparent that the Earth is flat, that you can see it thus.  I truly am sorry, but once more, if you believe in only what you can see, you must believe in little indeed.  A few examples.

I have never left the United States, sad to say.  Despite this, I have no trouble believing in other countries.  Say, Japan.  Despite never being there, and only seeing pictures, I see no reason to doubts its existance.  However, I'm afraid I can only go on heresay.

Atoms.  Another scientific theory, widely held to be true.  Do you think it is so?  After all, they are not visible.  There is no physical proof, I suppose, to convince you.  But the theory does make sense, and I have no reason to doubt it, even though I cannot personally verify it.

What dark lives we would lead, if all we could believe in is what we ourselves discovered and verified.


PS: My offer does stand.  I have no wish to cause any trouble or undue stress to you all.  I rather enjoy debates such as this, but I shall have no pleasure from your pain.  I am prepared to leave at any time if this forum so desires.

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TheEngineer

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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2007, 10:45:02 AM »
Quote from: "Daemonaetea"

Atoms.  Another scientific theory, widely held to be true.  Do you think it is so?  After all, they are not visible.  There is no physical proof, I suppose, to convince you.  

I've seen the proof, so yes I am convinced they are real.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Daemonaetea

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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2007, 10:54:34 AM »
Fine.  You believe in atoms.  Good for you, I suppose.  However, that still doesn't really answer my point.

And before the inevitable "What was that" or "That was a statement" or any other post I am sure will come, here it is, simply:

How can we function if we must independantly prove everything?  Isn't there a point where we must put our faith into those truths that make sense and, in every way except a purely illusionary way*, round Earth makes sense.  Can we truly independantly verify everything?


*I find it funny optical illusions are frequently cited as justifications for flat Earth being that the "obvious" proof of the Earth's flatness is nothing more than an optical illusion itself.