Conspiracy as a logical trap.

We CANNOT give you any evidence.  No matter how we struggle, no matter how convincing, you refuse to accept it.

Bingo! Time to join the flat side.

I'm handing out membership at €100 per month.

Quote from: "TheEngineer"

If the earth is not flat, there is no conspiracy.

It isn't. Therefore there is no conspiracy.

When did you prove it isn't?

Look, this is all pointless, there is no way you can prove that the earth is flat nor round. This will be a debate for ages. Its like a debate of whether god exists. There is no way you can prove it or disprove it and even with people saying "well god did this" there will always be other people saying "no he didn't" or have another explanation on why he exists or why he doesn't.

Look, this is all pointless, there is no way you can prove that the earth is flat nor round. This will be a debate for ages.

Um, what??  This debate was settled ages ago! Well among the other 99.9999% of humanity.

Quote from: "FE"

Quote from: "TheEngineer"

If the earth is not flat, there is no conspiracy.

It isn't. Therefore there is no conspiracy.

When did you prove it isn't?

When did you prove that the Earth is flat?

Hypocrisy is the word.

Quote from: "TheEngineer"

Quote from: "FE"

Quote from: "TheEngineer"

If the earth is not flat, there is no conspiracy.

It isn't. Therefore there is no conspiracy.

When did you prove it isn't?

When did you prove that the Earth is flat?

Hypocrisy is the word.

Read Earth: Not a Globe.

Quote from: "FE"

Quote from: "TheEngineer"

Quote from: "FE"

Quote from: "TheEngineer"

If the earth is not flat, there is no conspiracy.

It isn't. Therefore there is no conspiracy.

When did you prove it isn't?

When did you prove that the Earth is flat?

Hypocrisy is the word.

Read Earth: Not a Globe.

Ask 99% of scientists. One book that allegedly supports your theory does not prove anything.

True, and don't let this thread die either.

Look, this is all pointless, there is no way you can prove that the earth is flat nor round. This will be a debate for ages. Its like a debate of whether god exists. There is no way you can prove it or disprove it and even with people saying "well god did this" there will always be other people saying "no he didn't" or have another explanation on why he exists or why he doesn't.

Wrong.

The actual shape of the Earth is irrelevant to this debate.  An easy way of proving what shape it is is simply making a sundial and recording the shadows.  According to the FE theory the Sun has moved in a half circle around the world from sunrise to sunset.  According to the RE theory the Sun has essentially moved at a straight line over the equator.  You can easily calculate the exact results that should appear for the RE theory given you know your position on the Earth and the time of year.  You can't be so accurate with the FE theory but you can work out an approximate shape (unless you actually live on the equator and do the experiement on an equinox day.  An easy way of proving what shape the Earth is, that anybody can do.

While certainly some people on this forum are genuinely debating that the Earth is round, they've missed the point completely.  The debate is really one about dogmatic belief vs scientific fact.  The vast majority of REers have a dogmatic belief that the Earth is round.  You can see that in the fact that they are unable to prove their beliefs.  The FEers are pushing those dogmatic beliefs in order to eventually get them to question the nature of their beliefs.  In the case of the shape of the Earth, it may be a harmless belief but I think we all have other dogmatic beliefs that need to be questions and dogmatic belief has a very strong effect on our society.  I think the FEers really want to move to a world where people believe things that they understand and can back up, not where they believe things because they're told.  Maybe this forum has no influence at all.  Maybe it only has a very tiny influence.  I have always believed that some kind of action is better than no action.

So essentially it doesn't matter if the Earth is round or flat.  What matters is that you can actually defend your view with genuine evidence - or else try to learn more about the issue.  Do some research before having an opinion.

Amazing, Beast.  My sentiments exactly, except much better worded.  

The actual shape of the Earth is irrelevant to this debate.  An easy way of proving what shape it is is simply making a sundial and recording the shadows.  According to the FE theory the Sun has moved in a half circle around the world from sunrise to sunset.

I have proved this flawed.  The sun will never set in the FE model.  here:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=92874&highlight=#92874

According to the RE theory the Sun has essentially moved at a straight line over the equator.

In the RE model, the Earth is tilted on it's axis with respect to the sun.  That means the sun is only directly over the Equator on the equinox, twice a year.  You should define what you mean by "straight line."  

The FE model, on the other hand, completely lacks a description of a mechanism that increases and decreases the circular path of the Sun.  It simply does.   But I digress...

You can easily calculate the exact results that should appear for the RE theory given you know your position on the Earth and the time of year.  You can't be so accurate with the FE theory but you can work out an approximate shape (unless you actually live on the equator and do the experiement on an equinox day).

This is a great point to say that -- much short of a theory or even a hypothesis -- the FE model is really just a series of observations (yes, the horizon looks flat.  The Sun does traverse across our sky).  

While certainly some people on this forum are genuinely debating that the Earth is round, they've missed the point completely.  The debate is really one about dogmatic belief vs scientific fact.  The vast majority of REers have a dogmatic belief that the Earth is round.  You can see that in the fact that they are unable to prove their beliefs.  The FEers are pushing those dogmatic beliefs in order to eventually get them to question the nature of their beliefs.  In the case of the shape of the Earth, it may be a harmless belief but I think we all have other dogmatic beliefs that need to be questions and dogmatic belief has a very strong effect on our society.  I think the FEers really want to move to a world where people believe things that they understand and can back up, not where they believe things because they're told.  Maybe this forum has no influence at all.  Maybe it only has a very tiny influence.  I have always believed that some kind of action is better than no action.

So essentially it doesn't matter if the Earth is round or flat.  What matters is that you can actually defend your view with genuine evidence - or else try to learn more about the issue.  Do some research before having an opinion.

word.  That rings loudly and truly with me.  

Thank you Beast.

Now can you come down out of your ivory tower and talk about the original post of this thread?

Now can you come down out of your ivory tower and talk about the original post of this thread?

The original poster admitted you can't disprove the Conspiracy, what's left to discuss?

Quote from: "Agent_Fishmonger"

Now can you come down out of your ivory tower and talk about the original post of this thread?

The original poster admitted you can't disprove the Conspiracy, what's left to discuss?

I'm waiting for someone to tell me how Tom Bishop's photo is possible if NASA don't actually travel into space?

You really think that that photo is impossible to fake?  You actually believe that?

You really think that that photo is impossible to fake?  You actually believe that?

What's your point?

His point is that the photo is "possible" because it is a fake. Do we have to spell everything out for you?

Children, Children!  Come on back!  For about the zillionth time, you have wandered so far away from the original post its not even funny.

Children, Children!  Come on back!  For about the zillionth time, you have wandered so far away from the original post its not even funny.

For the second time:

The original poster admitted you can't disprove the Conspiracy, what's left to discuss?

Alright.  Yes, I did admit that the Conspiracy was impossible to disprove.  You happen to quite enjoy that part of my post.  I'm afraid, however, you ignore EVERY BLASTED THING ELSE.

Sigh.

Alright, lets look at the name I gave the topic:  Conspiracy as a Logical Trap.  Let me try, once more, to show what is wrong with the idea of the Conspiracy.

Anything, given the powers to which you attribute the Conspiracy, can be held to be true.  If I tell you a magical fish created the world, and that it was all powerful, I can then argue with any point you make.

Different ages of the Earth?  Faked by the Fish.
Photos?  Fakes, by Non Believers of the One True Fish.
Governments?  Shadow Puppets of the Fish.

See?  Once you make something all powerful, it can't be disproved because YOU MADE IT ALL POWERFUL.  You essentially entered the God Mode cheat into your theory!  

That is the same reason God is ruled out in scientific theory.  Gravity?  No, God holds us down.  Beginning of the Earth?  God did it.  Animals?  God.  Why this substance reacts to this?  God did it.

Regardless of your religion, and what you think, I hope, sincerely, you can see the problems with this.  There is no work involved.  You have to prove nothing.  You have your stock answer, and you don't have to THINK anymore.

True, you can't disprove such answers.  BUT you can't prove them either.  How can you prove a Conspiracy that keeps itself secret from billions of people?  I am saying that you have wrapped yourselves into a belief that, even if it WAS false, it is impossible to leave.  If I were to take you into a space shuttle, fly you into space, and show you the Earth was round, you would claim the whole experience had been faked by the Conspiracy!

By God, if you want to go that far, maybe this whole world is nothing more than the Matrix!  Can't prove it wrong, can you?

Either you understand what I say, or you don't.  I would like to know how you can accept belief into a principle that precludes any other belief.  It is your ball, it is your chain, and it is your coffin, willingly and lovingly entered into, and I want to know why you did.

True, you can't disprove such answers.  BUT you can't prove them either.  

The conspiracy can be proved by the photographic evidence on the first page of this thread. The leaked picture of the flat earth was taken by the Space Shuttle Endeavor on it's maiden flight in May 7th 1992, at an altitude of 195 nautical miles, with an inclination of 28.35 degrees.

The conspiracy can be proved by multiple eye witness testimonies and confessions.

The conspiracy can be proved by the fact that the Federal Reserve is a private for-profit corporation with milti-national share holders. It is neither federal or a reserve. The Federal Reserve is the entity which creates and lends the United States its money. None of this money is backed with gold, it's simply created out of thin air as needed. It is a vastly powerful entity with unlimited wealth. It was formed in 1913 by the presidential spy Woodrow Wilson.

To this day the Federal Reserve has never been audited by congress. Its money is completely unaccounted for. Since 1913 inflation has climbed in excess of 1,000 percent.

The conspiracy can be proved by the fact that the Federal Reserve is a private for-profit corporation with milti-national share holders. It is neither federal or a reserve. The Federal Reserve is the entity which creates and lends the United States its own money. None of this money is backed with gold, it's simply created out of thin air as needed. It is a vastly powerful entity with unlimited wealth. It was formed in

If they have unlimited wealth, can create as much money as they want, and very few people seem to care, why do they need anyone to believe anything about the shape of the Earth?

If they have unlimited wealth, can create as much money as they want, and very few people seem to care, why do they need anyone to believe anything about the shape of the Earth?

Partially, it's good to keep the population dumbed down and barely educated. It prevents rebellion and circumvents uprising.

The shape of the earth might also be hidden because it prevents excursions to the underside of the world. What's down there? Perhaps limestone. Perhaps there are vast amounts of gold, diamond, and silver which could send the economy to into a downward spiral. Perhaps the area is so sensitive that a breach in the ice wall could cause the death of millions.

Until a proper scientific survey is conducted of the underside of the earth we will never know for sure.

The problem, as far as I can see, is the following:

If I launched you, yourself, into space, and you saw the round earth, you could still say that I cheated you somehow--holograms, etc, maybe I drugged you at some point and instead you're in a simulation, etc, this is all part of the conspiracy.

If I showed you the math which people have been using, and the sciences therein which we have derived from a flat earth--and we'd have to rethink a lot of science if your flat earth theory is true--you would say the math is wrong, and the sciences false.

If I had a mythical, magical, 100% truth elixir, and gave it to every single current and ex-member of the government, you could tell me that I didn't find the /true/ government, and that they're hiding in a bunker somewhere.

I want you FE'rs to suppose two things.

1: I am totally awesome and have access to all information and people I want at all times.

2: That, hypothetically, there is no conspiracy.

Now, using my powers of omnipotence through being awesome (like the Fonz), what proof could I produce that would disprove the conspiracy, assuming that, hypothetically, it didn't exist?

I am totally awesome

Obviously you are not awesome like the fonz since you are posting on an internet forum. By using the internet you are a nerd by definition.

The conspiracy can be proved by the photographic evidence on the first page of this thread. The leaked picture of the flat earth was taken by the Space Shuttle Endeavor on it's maiden flight in May 7th 1992, at an altitude of 195 nautical miles, with an inclination of 28.35 degrees.

It has not, however, been disputed that (whether or not it is leaked, undoctored, and pertains in any way to those numbers) your posted picture has no meaning.  

Daemonaetea:  I agree, absolutely.  The argument is all on the Flat Earth'ers terms.  The "conspiracy" completely absorbs everything due to a lack of information.  From this void of information on can make any assertion, just like your "Fish" example.  The "Flat Earth" is a conclusion based on a specific set of observations (such as:  "it looks flat"; "the sun does move across the sky"; etc, as I've said in other posts).  It's not a theory, for it has no ability to predict any phenomenon other than the direct observations on which it is based.  It's not a hypothesis because it is avoiding evidence that contradicts the idea.  

It's odly identical to the "designer" in ID.

Quote

I am totally awesome

Obviously you are not awesome like the fonz since you are posting on an internet forum. By using the internet you are a nerd by definition.

 . . . nice dodge of the actual question at hand.

Daemonaetea, you seem to have misunderstood the conspiracy. We do not use the conpiracy as a "wild card" as you're suggesting. The conspiracy is not a logical trap. There is a large difference between using the conspiracy to explain things and saying "God did it."

I will use your fish example to explain.

Let's say that we have proved through various means (experimentation, observation etc.,) that a magical fish did in fact create the world, then it stands to reason that the different ages of the Earth were indeed faked by the fish, and the photos and the governments and so on. We now know that a large fish created the world, therefore anyone who says otherwise is incorrect.
If you want to prove the ages of Earth were not faked, and that the photos are real, and the governments are not shadow puppets, you need to prove that a giant fish did not create the world.

Unlike with God and the fish, the Flat Earthers feel that the FE theory is proven, therefore the photos must be fake, and the governments are lying when they say otherwise.

And yes, if you can prove there is no conspiracy, you will have proved that Earth isn't flat. So good luck with that.

Quote

I am totally awesome

Obviously you are not awesome like the fonz since you are posting on an internet forum. By using the internet you are a nerd by definition.

I bet you the fonz would totally use the internet. He would probably put his Ayyy in about a size 14 font, maybe scalling the last few y's down about a few font points to signify the fadeout. He would be so cool forum software would literally refuse to ban him.

Besides, this is entirely hypothetical. I want you to pretend I am awesome like the fonz, and that flat earth is false. How do I find proof that cannot, 100%, at all, be disproven?

And yes, if you can prove there is no conspiracy, you will have proved that Earth isn't flat. So good luck with that.

You are the ones making the assertion the Earth is flat.

So where's the evidence?

Hey Tommy, for the last time, we dont give a damn about the Federal Reserve!  Your very good at overlooking a logical post and nitpicking about something that has no bearing on what we're talking about.