Jane and Shifter fight about something

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Slemon

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2018, 04:43:02 AM »
I've never seen anything Star Trek related, except from one movie that I caught on tv, but... from what I've heard about it... Isn't making their ship a "full out war ship" like a really bad idea that is completely opposite of what Star Trek is supposed to be about?
In the way BHS is describing, probably honestly. The thing Voyager needed was character friction and interplay, not going full gritty. That's probably part of what sparked it; I remember reading part of Roddenberry's rules outright banning main characters not getting along, save for minor scuffles/mind control. DS9 was the first to really throw that out the window, and if BHS is right and it was DS9's lower ratings that affected Voyager's writing, that might be a factor. (I'll admit, DS9 wasn't on the best network or in the best era for serialised storytelling).
But DS9 did do a full on Federation at war, but it did it through the lens of actually looking at it, showing the consequences, showing how characters reacted, rather than just glorying in it. In The Pale Moonlight was a morality study, which stands out precisely because it's in a Star Trek series; any other series and, acting aside, it would have been meh. But in Star Trek of all things, you have a Captain coming forwards and outright pretty much being a criminal because the stakes are that high and it could save the galaxy. What makes morally ambiguous scenes like that work as well as it did is to not go full edgelord, and keep the contrast. Star Trek's still a utopia, DS9 just peeked behind the curtain a little.

Voyager on the other hand should not have tried to be DS9. Seven seasons of "Alone, marooned, struggling to survive," would have been wearying if it went grim and gritty. What it needed was character dynamics worth tuning in for. Making Janeway a character the polar opposite of Sisko, someone who would not do what he did, who would always keep to her ideals no matter the consequences, is a bloody good way of doing that, we just never saw decent consequences.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2018, 05:49:58 AM »
Alright, I will say it.  Janeway was the best captain, ever.  She did not just let random people die, like Kirk. 

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2018, 07:48:34 AM »
I love Janeway, but I didn't like the way Voyager was written a lot of the time. They had lots of really interesting ideas, but they squandered them. Like that ancient alien technology they used to contact the Federation? Instead of exploring it they had that hunter species to deal with. And don't even get me started on Neelix, what an annoying character.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2018, 10:17:39 AM »

Isn't making their ship a "full out war ship" like a really bad idea that is completely opposite of what Star Trek is supposed to be about?

The 'prime directive' only applies to newly discovered civilizations.
You can blow up everyone else.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2018, 10:34:12 AM »
They had the Dominion to worry about, and the Borg. They needed some warships.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2018, 12:14:01 PM »

Isn't making their ship a "full out war ship" like a really bad idea that is completely opposite of what Star Trek is supposed to be about?

The 'prime directive' only applies to newly discovered civilizations.
You can blow up everyone else.
Not a great definition. What if they just decide that new means less than 5 minutes ago?
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Slemon

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2018, 12:30:34 PM »

Isn't making their ship a "full out war ship" like a really bad idea that is completely opposite of what Star Trek is supposed to be about?

The 'prime directive' only applies to newly discovered civilizations.
You can blow up everyone else.
Technically it's warp-capable civilisations, if memory serves. Non-interference in their natural development, but once they've gotten that far feel free to blow them up. Or ask them to join. Either's good.

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Shifter

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2018, 04:12:59 PM »
Alright, I will say it.  Janeway was the best captain, ever.  She did not just let random people die, like Kirk.

I didn't mind the character of Janeway, until she let her hair down. When she let her hair down, the show went down with it.

Also I didn't like how the Borg, once a seemingly invincible enemy of the Federation was constantly thwarted over and over by the crew of Voyager.

There was also a critical plot fail with Sevens character. She 'knew' how to use Voyagers deflector dish to transport them almost anywhere in the galaxy (such as when they went to the domain of Species 8472). She could have replicated this to get them home. In fact, this breakthrough also makes the Borgs transwarp hub redundant. If a primitive Starship like Voyager could instantaneously traverse the galaxy with a few modifications, why couldn't the Borg? This travel technique was replicated on a shuttle by the 'Q' kid FFS

There was not enough character friction in the show. Especially given the 2 types of crews that had to work together. I think the only one we got in Voyager was Neelix and Tuvok. Everyone else was really superficial. Kes and Neelix were an item but all we got was a throw away one liner the Doctor mentioned about a 'recent breakup with Mr Neelix'. And when she left the ship, there was nothing about Neelix dealing with the loss in any way.

Chakotay and Seven getting together on the eve of the series ending looked forced, unnecessary, fake and out of no where.

Janeway having a relationship with a some Hologram out of no where was just WTF?

Neelix leaving the crew for some random colony of conveniently placed Talaxians tens of thousands of light years away from their home planet was just mind boggling (that they were there and that he left on the 2nd last episode all of timings)

Seska being a Cardassian was a stupid idea. And even more stupid that she would be content to stay with some unknown, hideous and primitive alien race where women are treated like shit and subservient. The fact that it took Voyager 3 seasons to finally 'escape' Kazon space given they could just 'cruise' at Warp 9.975 is also ridiculous. The ship 'Voyager' was one of the most advanced in Starfleet. Their cruising speed would be way more than any Kazon vessel. Easy enough to outrun given the warp scale is logarithmic.

Every episode seemed more or less 'stand alone' Using time travel and the Borg to get them home in the last episode was lazy. There was no build up. And then, after 7 years of watching, you just see Voyager coming in towards Earth and then END. No conclusion. No happy days of the crew stepping foot on Earth and getting debreifed and meeting their families (such as the mummys boy Harry seeing his mum again).

If you watched the series 'Enterprise' in Season 3, bar ~2 episodes, the whole season was one long story arc where one episode followed the next. The whole thing was a build up to a conclusion (which they fucked in the end by rehashing stupid time travel and Nazis. WTF  ???). The last season of Voyager should have been drawn out with a plan that gets them home and takes the whole season doing so. Not just stand alone episodes before doing a stupid time travel cheat to get home.


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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2018, 04:20:35 PM »
Star Trek had a thing for Nazis.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Slemon

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2018, 04:42:25 PM »
I saw one person theorise that Voyager should've ended up home in the season 4 finale, which set it up and was otherwise lacklustre. Or, more practically, maybe season 6. Show them getting to know everyone again, multiple episodes like TNG's Family where Picard went back to his friends post-Borg. Show them getting used to not being out in the middle of nowhere, actually having firmer rules, hell the Maquis are one of the most interesting things because what are they at that point? The Alpha/Beta quadrant Maquis were destroyed, but even if they're friends with Voyager officers that hardly makes them Starfleet, and technically they're still terrorists. Have a season end with the return home, then go full DS9 and have a multi-parter of the fallout, struggling to fit in, struggling to gain trust of other officers, throw in new crew members to replace those that died and have a lower decks episode dedicated to them trying to get used to the fact that the Voyager crew are basically a family now they've spent six years with only each other and it's hard for others to get in on that.
Also, shout out to that episode where the EMH lost all of his memories and development of years of the show and it was never brought up again.
And the fact Starfleet apparently actually has regulations on sex with alien species. I choose to believe Picard and Spock cowrote them.

Voyager can pretty much be defined by wasted potential. A character like Janeway is made by how the world reacts to her, and how she reacts to the world, and we barely got one of those. Seven of Nine had the potential to play up the interesting post-BoBW Picard dynamic, and she was really interesting, but was also ruined both by overexposure and deciding to sexualise a fricking Borg. Kes, a mysterious alien with mysterious powers... did nothing and then came back stupidly. Everything about the Maquis. Neelix, a whole new species getting to know the Federation for the first time was just annoying. Tuvok was well-acted but had no material.

And the Borg were... honestly as much flak as the series gets, I don't mind the fact the Borg were easier to deal with. Voyager had more data on the Borg than any other starship, including a former member of the collective, they were far better prepared. It makes sense they'd fare better; in First Contact Picard could destroy a cube because he could sense its weak point despite it being years since he was assimilated, with Seven aboard you'd expect Voyager to do well. I just hate the fact they skipped over Borg Space. If people can walk around on a cube and be ignored because they're not a threat, you could easily translate that to a ship flying through Borg space being ignored (unless a cube's panning to go assimilate) because it's too small to bother with. You could do some good things with that.
It was built up well, and Shifter brought up Enterprise season 3 which was incredible, and more than that it kept continuity. If the ship got damaged in one episode, it stayed damaged in the next. That could have made the series intense, Voyager actually showing wear and tear consistently, showing the toll the journey took.

But nope, it had a cool premise but didn't do anything with it. Pretty much every episode could belong to any other series, which is a pity. The best episodes of TNG, DS9, even Enterprise, were the ones where they did something that only they'd do. The Inner Light, BoBW and Family, giving Picard a journey Kirk would never have gone on. The Visitor or Way of the Warrior or basically anything to do with the arc for DS9, showing serialisation never really seen in Trek and, because it's on a space station, showing consequences. Cogenitor and Dead Stop for Enterprise, showing how new everything is. Every series, especially in a shared universe, needs to establish an identity. Voyager never did.

I like the fact that the thread meant to make as argue has inexplicably started Shifter and I agreeing with each other. And by like, I mean I feel dirty.

Star Trek had a thing for Nazis.
My favourite Doctor Who companion is a Nazi.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Jane and Shifter fight about something
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2018, 05:33:55 PM »

Isn't making their ship a "full out war ship" like a really bad idea that is completely opposite of what Star Trek is supposed to be about?

The 'prime directive' only applies to newly discovered civilizations.
You can blow up everyone else.
Technically it's warp-capable civilisations, if memory serves. Non-interference in their natural development, but once they've gotten that far feel free to blow them up. Or ask them to join. Either's good.

So, everyone's safe until they have Dilithium Crystals.