The importance of Critical Thinking

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The importance of Critical Thinking
« on: July 09, 2018, 11:18:02 AM »
Critical Thinking... why does it matter so much?

To each of us individually, you would expect critical thinking would matter a great deal. Each of us encounters a Nigerian Prince now and then, and our financial well-being depends on our ability to detect scams. It is obviously in your own best interest to have a good way to pick out the con artists and frauds.

But what happens when the con artists run for political office? As soon as the con artist graduates to politics, now I have a problem with it. If you want to give all your money to a Nigerian Prince, I think you're a fool, but I guess that's your business. If you want to elect a Nigerian Prince to political office, now your foolishness is messing with all of us and our futures are at stake.

Think that's nonsense? (I'll specifically avoid anything I think is controversial.) Take a look at Venezuela. That is what listening to con artists can do for a nation. That's an extreme example, but subtle examples are easy to find in democracies all over the world - examples where the voting population have embraced foolish notions with potentially tragic results.

Every decision we ever make is made with the idea that we make our best guess at the outcome of that decision and try to achieve the best outcome. Internally, we build a mental model of the world, and we use that model to try to predict the outcomes of our decisions. The more accurate our mental model is, the better our decisions will be for the future. The decisions of leaders can have a tremendous impact. If those decisions are built on an incorrect model, the outcomes can be disastrous.

What does that have to do with flat earth? I am afraid I can't come up with a way to say this without offending... For centuries, the cliche for failure of critical thinking was believing the earth was flat. If someone held a foolish belief, it would be compared with believing the earth was flat.

Does believing the earth to be flat cause harm to others? If you believe in FE, it necessarily means that you reject science, objectivity, and verifiable facts. Rejection of science, objectivity, and verifiable facts leads to the election of officials who reject science, objectivity, and verifiable facts. This is absolutely NOT harmless.

I think I get it. FEs don't trust scientists. We have plenty of reasons to mistrust them. But stop and think for a moment... are you rejecting one untrustworthy source for another untrustworthy source? How do you pick whom to trust?

What does "critical thinking" even mean to you?

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 12:01:13 PM »
Tl; dr
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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 12:39:56 PM »
Tl; dr

tl;dr: If you believe in FE, it necessarily means that you reject science, objectivity, and verifiable facts. Rejection of science, objectivity, and verifiable facts leads to the election of officials who reject science, objectivity, and verifiable facts. This is absolutely NOT harmless.

Are you rejecting one untrustworthy source for another untrustworthy source? How do you pick whom to trust?

What does "critical thinking" even mean to you?

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 12:54:09 PM »
Tl; dr

tl;dr: If you believe in FE, it necessarily means that you reject science, objectivity, and verifiable facts. Rejection of science, objectivity, and verifiable facts leads to the election of officials who reject science, objectivity, and verifiable facts. This is absolutely NOT harmless.

Are you rejecting one untrustworthy source for another untrustworthy source? How do you pick whom to trust?

What does "critical thinking" even mean to you?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2018, 03:34:23 PM »
Dear ICanScienceThat, while there are some flat earthers who reject all science many of us do not. I do not reject vaccines or climate change.  IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Also, DNS stop spamming.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2018, 09:55:07 AM »
Dear ICanScienceThat, while there are some flat earthers who reject all science many of us do not. I do not reject vaccines or climate change.  IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Also, DNS stop spamming.

Space Cowgirl, I agree completely with everything you just said.
Flat Earthers do not (as a group) reject all science - but they DO reject some science on a pick-and-choose basis.
I'm SUPER glad that you don't reject vaccines and climate change. Those are 2 of the most dangerous ones out there. Flat Earth isn't a dangerous belief itself, so that's good.
And yes, most people are round earthers, so most of the votes for our bad politicians come from round earthers.

Agreed 100%!

I think it's really important for ALL of us to choose politicians based on facts. When we start accepting "alternative facts", then the floodgates are open (as they appear to be now).

Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2018, 11:58:13 AM »
IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

And yes, most people are round earthers, so most of the votes for our bad politicians come from round earthers.

And for the same reason, most votes for our good politicians come from round earthers. I think what you guys mean is that flat Earthers generally choose better politicians than round Earthers.

Some FE reject science that doesn't confirm their FE or religious beliefs. But the way out isn't to reject science, but use science to explore FE. It would be much better to reject religion than science. I mean if you break a bone, do you go to a church or a doctor? Have an infection, choose prayer or penicillin? Avoid the flu, do veneration or vaccination?

Don't fear science but use it to the advantage of FE. In the end, it is neither flat earth nor round earth we seek—it is truth we seek.
A good world needs knowledge, kindliness and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past, or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. —Bertrand Russell

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Gumwars

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2018, 04:16:59 PM »
IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Something's off with this statement.  It would necessarily follow that because there are more "round earthers" than "flat earthers" that the majority would be better represented in a body of voters.  What exactly are you saying here?
Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2018, 04:28:36 PM »
Quote
For centuries, the cliche for failure of critical thinking was believing the earth was flat. If someone held a foolish belief, it would be compared with believing the earth was flat.
Apply your vaunted critical thinking to that. No one thinks critically precisely because of that, because in an era where they thought maggots appeared out of thin air some people were scornful of FET and that attitude was passed down from generation to generation. If you submit a scientific paper to a journal, it'd be rejected if the first sentence mentioned evidence the Earth was flat regardless of content.
Critical thinking is important, and it needs to be applied universally, not just to what you already favor.

It is self-righteous and arrogant in the extreme to pretend that only the people who agree with you are capable of critical thinking.

Look at the mainstream. 99% of people you meet on the street couldn't tell you a single FE explanation for, say, gravity, and you expect me to believe they've thought critically about RET and its alternatives? FEers are the ones that know both theories, FEers are the ones that made an informed decision. Roundies meanwhile just went along with what they were taught and what they already believed.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2018, 05:00:36 PM »
IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Something's off with this statement.  It would necessarily follow that because there are more "round earthers" than "flat earthers" that the majority would be better represented in a body of voters.  What exactly are you saying here?

Maybe something is off with your perception of the statement.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Hamzah

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2018, 05:11:55 PM »
Dear ICanScienceThat, while there are some flat earthers who reject all science many of us do not. I do not reject vaccines or climate change.  IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Also, DNS stop spamming.

What are you trying to say? Are you trying to say we should listen to you who to vote for?
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). Al-Baqara (The Cow) - 2:18




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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2018, 05:44:21 PM »
Dear ICanScienceThat, while there are some flat earthers who reject all science many of us do not. I do not reject vaccines or climate change.  IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Also, DNS stop spamming.

What are you trying to say? Are you trying to say we should listen to you who to vote for?

Yes, it's obvious I am saying you should vote for whoever I say you should vote for.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Gumwars

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2018, 06:41:28 PM »
IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Something's off with this statement.  It would necessarily follow that because there are more "round earthers" than "flat earthers" that the majority would be better represented in a body of voters.  What exactly are you saying here?

Maybe something is off with your perception of the statement.

Is it impossible for you to answer a simple question?  My perception of your statement is evident in the question I asked.  Either you are dense to the point of not understanding the implication of what you've written, or your opinion is an insult hidden in a flippant remark.  Which is it?
Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2018, 01:06:04 AM »
IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Well, yeah, you are correct. But also most of the people who elect good politicians are round earthers.
Might has to do with the fact that most people are round earthers, but whatever.
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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2018, 02:52:00 AM »
Dear ICanScienceThat, while there are some flat earthers who reject all science many of us do not. I do not reject vaccines or climate change.  IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Also, DNS stop spamming.

What are you trying to say? Are you trying to say we should listen to you who to vote for?

Critical thinking 101:
Cowgirl throws a Foul.
Hamzah swings and misses.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2018, 08:15:16 AM »
IMO, most of the people who elect bad politicians are round earthers.

Something's off with this statement.  It would necessarily follow that because there are more "round earthers" than "flat earthers" that the majority would be better represented in a body of voters.  What exactly are you saying here?

Maybe something is off with your perception of the statement.

Is it impossible for you to answer a simple question?  My perception of your statement is evident in the question I asked.  Either you are dense to the point of not understanding the implication of what you've written, or your opinion is an insult hidden in a flippant remark.  Which is it?

Is it impossible for you to relax or do you think every FE post is an attack? You claimed something was off with the statement, and immediately got pissy about it. Obviously there are more round earthers, and obviously round earthers are more responsible for electing bad politicians. The OP was worrying about FE science denial getting bad politicians elected. IMO the worry is misplaced, since we do not make up a large constituency of voters anywhere on the plane. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2018, 12:14:31 PM »
The OP was worrying about FE science denial getting bad politicians elected. IMO the worry is misplaced, since we do not make up a large constituency of voters anywhere on the plane.

I am worried about science denial getting bad politicians elected. First notice that I've struck the "FE" part and said only "science denial." Do you disagree with my worry about science denial and politics? Let's see if we can find some common ground. If you disregard any of my comments about FE, do we have common ground that science denial has led to some bad politics lately?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2018, 01:26:36 PM »
I think humans are easily manipulated into voting against their own best interests.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2018, 01:27:45 PM »

Do you disagree with my worry about science denial and politics?

I disagree with you conflating science and politics.


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Bullwinkle

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2018, 01:36:33 PM »
I think humans are easily manipulated into voting against their own best interests.

I think people vote for what they think is the best option.
Which, I just realized, is exactly what you just said.  ;)

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2018, 01:53:38 PM »
The OP was worrying about FE science denial getting bad politicians elected. IMO the worry is misplaced, since we do not make up a large constituency of voters anywhere on the plane.

I am worried about science denial getting bad politicians elected. First notice that I've struck the "FE" part and said only "science denial." Do you disagree with my worry about science denial and politics? Let's see if we can find some common ground. If you disregard any of my comments about FE, do we have common ground that science denial has led to some bad politics lately?

What people don't think isn't a problem, it's what they do think. Distrust of science is a good thing, distrust just means they question and verify. Blindly following is the problem, and it's that which leads to the likes of anti-vaxxers. They follow a report on twelve people by a paid-off former doctor religiously.
Your problem is this blatant arrogance, assuming FET is wrong and RET is right, and anyone that questions would come to the conclusion of RET. That just ain't how it is. REers don't question, your way of thinking here demonstrates that. You assume your own accuracy and expect anyone to disagree with you.

FET isn't anti-science, it's anti-dogma. FET tells people that the scientific method isn't to just rote-learn, it's to think for yourself.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2018, 02:17:51 PM »
FET isn't anti-science, it's anti-dogma. FET tells people that the scientific method isn't to just rote-learn, it's to think for yourself.

FET is pretty dogmatic in its insistence that the earth is flat whatever the evidence to the contrary.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 02:31:28 PM by Copper Knickers »

Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2018, 02:32:28 PM »
The OP was worrying about FE science denial getting bad politicians elected. IMO the worry is misplaced, since we do not make up a large constituency of voters anywhere on the plane.

I am worried about science denial getting bad politicians elected. First notice that I've struck the "FE" part and said only "science denial." Do you disagree with my worry about science denial and politics? Let's see if we can find some common ground. If you disregard any of my comments about FE, do we have common ground that science denial has led to some bad politics lately?

What people don't think isn't a problem, it's what they do think. Distrust of science is a good thing, distrust just means they question and verify. Blindly following is the problem, and it's that which leads to the likes of anti-vaxxers. They follow a report on twelve people by a paid-off former doctor religiously.
Your problem is this blatant arrogance, assuming FET is wrong and RET is right, and anyone that questions would come to the conclusion of RET. That just ain't how it is. REers don't question, your way of thinking here demonstrates that. You assume your own accuracy and expect anyone to disagree with you.

FET isn't anti-science, it's anti-dogma. FET tells people that the scientific method isn't to just rote-learn, it's to think for yourself.

Apologies for the quote/re-quote as it gets a bit ungainly. Anyway, so many points to deconstruct in 3 short paragraphs, so I'll just stick to the bit about dogma.
You don't have to go far to find a post along the lines of:
"Beyond the icewall there is an infinate plane with silvery worms that will eat your brain".
You know the sort of thing, no discussion suggested or invited. Dogma.
Distrust science all you like, (after you've finished distrusting stuff like this), but sometimes you just have to take as a priori the work others have done and use these building blocks to move on.
Imagine the jet engine production line ground to a halt every time someone said "Wait, let's just re-establish the reason why burning fuel expands" and they had to start again about where Whittle left off.

Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2018, 02:37:17 PM »
I think humans are easily manipulated into voting against their own best interests.

I think people vote for what they think is the best option.
Which, I just realized, is exactly what you just said.  ;)

Is voting for your own best interests the finest goal of democracy?
Just throwing it out there...

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Bullwinkle

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2018, 03:40:31 AM »

Is voting for your own best interests the finest goal of democracy?

I honestly don't understand your question.

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2018, 04:18:39 AM »

Is voting for your own best interests the finest goal of democracy?

I honestly don't understand your question.
He's trying to imply that people are egoistic.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2018, 04:36:53 AM »

Is voting for your own best interests the finest goal of democracy?

I honestly don't understand your question.

He's trying to imply that people are egoistic.

Nobody votes in favor of something they disagree with.

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2018, 04:38:40 AM »

Is voting for your own best interests the finest goal of democracy?

I honestly don't understand your question.

He's trying to imply that people are egoistic.

Nobody votes in favor of something they disagree with.
He probably isn't capable of understanding that people do realize that something, which benefits the society, will in the end also benefit themselves.
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Gumwars

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Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2018, 12:22:53 AM »
Is it impossible for you to relax or do you think every FE post is an attack? You claimed something was off with the statement, and immediately got pissy about it. Obviously there are more round earthers, and obviously round earthers are more responsible for electing bad politicians. The OP was worrying about FE science denial getting bad politicians elected. IMO the worry is misplaced, since we do not make up a large constituency of voters anywhere on the plane.

See, I knew you could do it.  This would have been far more helpful in the beginning, but thank you none the less.
Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

Re: The importance of Critical Thinking
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2018, 01:07:00 AM »
I think humans are easily manipulated into voting against their own best interests.

Yes. That's really what this post was supposed to be about. I am advocating that we try our best to inoculate ourselves against that type of manipulation. Particularly the politically motivated manipulation, but all kinds would be good while we're at it. I think that's a really worthy goal to try to achieve.