southern cross

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southern cross
« on: July 08, 2018, 02:56:30 PM »
There is a constellation called the Southern cross that is in approximate south in the southern hemisphere. If you look towards the southern pole star in Capetown, Buenos Aires, and Sydney, you will be looking at the same thing in completely different directions, towards the edge. How is this possible?
Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2018, 08:21:49 PM »
There is a constellation called the Southern cross that is in approximate south in the southern hemisphere. If you look towards the southern pole star in Capetown, Buenos Aires, and Sydney, you will be looking at the same thing in completely different directions, towards the edge. How is this possible?

I don't think that 3 different people in the 3 different countries that you mentioned experience night at the same time, and therefore, your thought experiment is moot. 

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faded mike

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 08:34:22 PM »
I fathom the stars appearance could be some function of an electro magnetic field running along n/s lines of force.
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Re: southern cross
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 02:43:03 AM »
There is a constellation called the Southern cross that is in approximate south in the southern hemisphere. If you look towards the southern pole star in Capetown, Buenos Aires, and Sydney, you will be looking at the same thing in completely different directions, towards the edge. How is this possible?

I don't think that 3 different people in the 3 different countries that you mentioned experience night at the same time, and therefore, your thought experiment is moot.

Capetown and Sydney are 8 hrs apart, and both have 11 hrs between astronomical twilight (properly dark in plain language) so actually the Q is valid.
We could turn it from a thought experiment to a real one if anyone who lives in either of those places would care to take a rough bearing on the Southern cross at about 17:00 gmt any clear evening around now.
It doesn't need to be very accurate as we are talking about 120 degrees of difference (FE) vs 0 degrees of difference (RE).

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Son of Orospu

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2018, 05:44:59 AM »
There is a constellation called the Southern cross that is in approximate south in the southern hemisphere. If you look towards the southern pole star in Capetown, Buenos Aires, and Sydney, you will be looking at the same thing in completely different directions, towards the edge. How is this possible?

I don't think that 3 different people in the 3 different countries that you mentioned experience night at the same time, and therefore, your thought experiment is moot.

Capetown and Sydney are 8 hrs apart, and both have 11 hrs between astronomical twilight (properly dark in plain language) so actually the Q is valid.
We could turn it from a thought experiment to a real one if anyone who lives in either of those places would care to take a rough bearing on the Southern cross at about 17:00 gmt any clear evening around now.
It doesn't need to be very accurate as we are talking about 120 degrees of difference (FE) vs 0 degrees of difference (RE).

You seem to experience reading comprehension problems.  I don't blame you, I blame your liberal teachers who gave you a participation award and passed you through the system.  I will break it down for you in very small words so that maybe you can start to understand.  The OP specifically asked a hypothetical question about seeing something at 3 specific locations at the same time at night.  I informed the OP that it is impossible for those 3 locations to all be at night at the same time.  Does that clear things up for you, or do I need to break it down even further?

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SphericalEarther

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2018, 06:38:32 AM »
You seem to experience reading comprehension problems.  I don't blame you, I blame your liberal teachers who gave you a participation award and passed you through the system.  I will break it down for you in very small words so that maybe you can start to understand.  The OP specifically asked a hypothetical question about seeing something at 3 specific locations at the same time at night.  I informed the OP that it is impossible for those 3 locations to all be at night at the same time.  Does that clear things up for you, or do I need to break it down even further?
It is true that all those 3 locations cannot be at night at the same time. But let us just move from Sydney to Perth (also in Australia).
During the June solstice, all 3 locations (Perth, Cape Town, Buenos Aires) would be in astronomical twilight:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20180621T2206
They would all be able to see the southern cross constellation looking directly south.

Now how would that be possible?

EDIT: meant to say Sigma Octantis, as the southern cross is about 30 degrees off from the south pole.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 07:39:59 AM by SphericalEarther »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2018, 06:53:42 AM »
You seem to experience reading comprehension problems.  I don't blame you, I blame your liberal teachers who gave you a participation award and passed you through the system.  I will break it down for you in very small words so that maybe you can start to understand.  The OP specifically asked a hypothetical question about seeing something at 3 specific locations at the same time at night.  I informed the OP that it is impossible for those 3 locations to all be at night at the same time.  Does that clear things up for you, or do I need to break it down even further?
It is true that all those 3 locations cannot be at night at the same time. But let us just move from Sydney to Perth (also in Australia).
During the June solstice, all 3 locations (Perth, Cape Town, Buenos Aires) would be in astronomical twilight:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20180621T2206
They would all be able to see the southern cross constellation looking directly south.

Now how would that be possible?

How often do you see stars at twilight?  I don't know about you, but I don't see stars until the sun is completely gone, especially when looking south.  I might believe you that you saw a star while looking east at sunset or west at sunrise, but south? 

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SphericalEarther

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2018, 07:23:10 AM »
How often do you see stars at twilight?  I don't know about you, but I don't see stars until the sun is completely gone, especially when looking south.  I might believe you that you saw a star while looking east at sunset or west at sunrise, but south?
Okay then. Instead of Buenos Aires, lets move to Salvador (also South America):
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20180621T2136
You now have night time in all areas. Can you accept the premise now?

They will all be able to see Sigma Octantis (the southern star) due south.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 07:38:26 AM by SphericalEarther »

Re: southern cross
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2018, 07:39:06 AM »
There is a constellation called the Southern cross that is in approximate south in the southern hemisphere. If you look towards the southern pole star in Capetown, and Sydney, you will be looking at the same thing in completely different directions, towards the edge. How is this possible?

I don't think that 2 different people in the 2 different countries that you mentioned experience night at the same time, and therefore, your thought experiment is moot.

Capetown and Sydney are 8 hrs apart, and both have 11 hrs between astronomical twilight (properly dark in plain language) so actually the Q is valid.
We could turn it from a thought experiment to a real one if anyone who lives in either of those places would care to take a rough bearing on the Southern cross at about 17:00 gmt any clear evening around now.
It doesn't need to be very accurate as we are talking about 120 degrees of difference (FE) vs 0 degrees of difference (RE).

How about that?


Re: southern cross
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2018, 08:11:07 AM »
You seem to experience reading comprehension problems.  I don't blame you, I blame your liberal teachers who gave you a participation award and passed you through the system.  I will break it down for you in very small words so that maybe you can start to understand.  The OP specifically asked a hypothetical question about seeing something at 3 specific locations at the same time at night.  I informed the OP that it is impossible for those 3 locations to all be at night at the same time.  Does that clear things up for you, or do I need to break it down even further?
It is true that all those 3 locations cannot be at night at the same time. But let us just move from Sydney to Perth (also in Australia).
During the June solstice, all 3 locations (Perth, Cape Town, Buenos Aires) would be in astronomical twilight:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20180621T2206
They would all be able to see the southern cross constellation looking directly south.

Now how would that be possible?

How often do you see stars at twilight?  I don't know about you, but I don't see stars until the sun is completely gone, especially when looking south.  I might believe you that you saw a star while looking east at sunset or west at sunrise, but south?

You seem to experience reading comprehension problems.  I don't blame you, I blame your liberal teachers who gave you a participation award and passed you through the system.

Read this next bit carefully:

"To the naked eye, and especially in areas with light pollution, it may be difficult to distinguish astronomical twilight from night time. Most stars and other celestial objects can be seen during this phase."

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjg95bSppLcAhXGJlAKHeOxDBgQFgguMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timeanddate.com%2Fastronomy%2Fastronomical-twilight.html&usg=AOvVaw19d-BqRTu7cNbqkrkIuv6b

Re: southern cross
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2018, 10:12:25 AM »
A better way to ask the question (especially with jroa) regarding the south celestial pole;  How is the same celestial pole seen in multiple directions even though it remains in a fixed position?

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JackBlack

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2018, 02:41:04 PM »
I don't think that 3 different people in the 3 different countries that you mentioned experience night at the same time, and therefore, your thought experiment is moot.
No, however any pair from that set can. So the argument is valid.

Furthermore, we can locate the direction to the south celestial pole and note that the direction to it doesn't change during the night, and from the sun in the southern summer we can also conclude it doesn't change during the day either.
So at all times, the southern celestial pole is due south, which on the FE map is outwards. So how do all these lines going outwards meet at the same point?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2018, 06:21:27 PM »
How often do you see stars at twilight?  I don't know about you, but I don't see stars until the sun is completely gone, especially when looking south.  I might believe you that you saw a star while looking east at sunset or west at sunrise, but south?
Okay then. Instead of Buenos Aires, lets move to Salvador (also South America):
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20180621T2136
You now have night time in all areas. Can you accept the premise now?

They will all be able to see Sigma Octantis (the southern star) due south.



On your map, Sydney is in complete daylight.  Please, try again. 

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sokarul

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2018, 06:39:37 PM »

Ok he tried again with Perth.
You seem to experience reading comprehension problems.  I don't blame you, I blame your liberal teachers who gave you a participation award and passed you through the system.  I will break it down for you in very small words so that maybe you can start to understand.  The OP specifically asked a hypothetical question about seeing something at 3 specific locations at the same time at night.  I informed the OP that it is impossible for those 3 locations to all be at night at the same time.  Does that clear things up for you, or do I need to break it down even further?
It is true that all those 3 locations cannot be at night at the same time. But let us just move from Sydney to Perth (also in Australia).
During the June solstice, all 3 locations (Perth, Cape Town, Buenos Aires) would be in astronomical twilight:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20180621T2206
They would all be able to see the southern cross constellation looking directly south.

Now how would that be possible?

EDIT: meant to say Sigma Octantis, as the southern cross is about 30 degrees off from the south pole.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 07:32:25 PM »

Ok he tried again with Perth.


Great.  Now, show us the evidence that this experiment has ever occurred.  Or, are we still talking about a made-up hypothetical thought experiment?  If that is the case, then I can just make up any outcome I want as well. 

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sokarul

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2018, 08:00:21 PM »
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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rabinoz

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2018, 08:02:00 PM »
You seem to experience reading comprehension problems.  I don't blame you, I blame your liberal teachers who gave you a participation award and passed you through the system.  I will break it down for you in very small words so that maybe you can start to understand.  The OP specifically asked a hypothetical question about seeing something at 3 specific locations at the same time at night.  I informed the OP that it is impossible for those 3 locations to all be at night at the same time.  Does that clear things up for you, or do I need to break it down even further?
During the June solstice, all 3 locations (Perth, Cape Town, Buenos Aires) would be in astronomical twilight:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20180621T2206
They would all be able to see the southern cross constellation looking directly south.

Now how would that be possible?

How often do you see stars at twilight?  I don't know about you, but I don't see stars until the sun is completely gone, especially when looking south.  I might believe you that you saw a star while looking east at sunset or west at sunrise, but south?
The sun is gone by "Civil twilight", so what's your problem and "During the June solstice, all 3 locations (Perth, Cape Town, Buenos Aires) would be in astronomical twilight".

Do you even know what the definition of "astronomical twilight" is?
Quote
  • Civil twilight is the time before sunrise and after sunset when the sun is at a maximum angle of 6 degrees under the horizon. Usually it is possible to read the paper under these twilight conditions. First stars become visible (up to magnitude 1).

  • Nautical twilight is the time before/after the civil twilight when the sun is at a maximum angle of 12 degrees under the horizon. The most important stars are visible (magnitude 3) as well as the horizon. Therefore, nautical positioning using classical instruments is possible.

  • Astronomical twilight is the time before/after nautical twilight when the sun is at a maximum angle of 18 degrees under the horizon. Horizon is not visible anymore, all stars become visible. After/before that twilight all stars are visible.
The brighter stars of the Southern Cross should be visible even during civil twilight:
Quote
The star Acrux marks the bottom of the Southern Cross, when you are facing south. For an observer facing south, Acrux is the star nearest the horizon. At magnitude 0.77, Acrux is the most southernly first magnitude star. Nearby Mimosa, or Beta Crucis, at magnitude 1.25, is the 19th brightest star in all the heavens.

Two nearby and brighter stars, Alpha Centauri and Beta Centauri (Hadar), are known as the Southern Pointers. A line drawn from Alpha through Beta, at about 3 times the distance between them, leads to the top of the Southern Cross, Theta Crucis.

Check your Southern Hemisphere facts, jroa!


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rabinoz

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2018, 08:12:57 PM »
I can just make up any outcome I want as well.
You do and call the result "the flat earth". Look at Rowbotham's "experiments", most of which he didn't do! Just one example, the Biot and Arago survey. Rowbotham claims
"If the earth is a globe, the light on the rock in Spain would have been more than 6600 feet, or nearly one mile and a quarter, below the line of sight."
Whatever the "the line of sight" means. That could mean anything. In any case, the "rock in Spain" viewed from Ibiza should have been, and was, easily seen on the Globe.

So who get's into difficulties from getting 2nd of 3rd information again? Your patron Saint of neo-flat Earthism. And look what we get - the fiction of a flat earth foisted on us.

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SphericalEarther

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2018, 11:23:44 PM »
Great.  Now, show us the evidence that this experiment has ever occurred.  Or, are we still talking about a made-up hypothetical thought experiment?  If that is the case, then I can just make up any outcome I want as well.
No getting through to you then...

Look, the thing is that you can ALWAYS look south from ANY location in the southern hemisphere at ANY time stars are visible in that location and see the southern pole star, also referred to as Sigma Octantis.
This is FACT.

You going on and on about all 3 locations needing to see the stars at the same time and wanting perfect experiments is just your excuse for not wanting to believe it. Actually I think you already know this to be a fact and you are simply trolling with bigger and bigger demands.

It is not an experiment, it is an observation anyone can make and has made throughout history.

You complained and I gave you 3 far away locations where they can all be in astronomical twilight and see stars at the same time.
You complained again and I gave you 3 locations that were all in nighttime at the same time as you requested. Salvador, Cape Town and Perth.
Now again you complain and it feels like you wont stop complaining until I give up because you are requesting something unreasonable.

You know, instead of making an unreasonable request, with a small timespan, requiring people in 3 locations where all locations need great weather to view the stars, the request nearly impossible. Try thinking a bit. You might realize that it is way WAY easier to disprove this observation, by simply showing any night at any time of night in the southern hemisphere where you can't see Sigma Octantis. Or show that Sigma Octantis would move during the night.
This however is impossible for you, since it is fact that Sigma Octantis is so close to the south pole that you might as well call it stationary from our spinning earth.


TLDR; Lets put it another way. If in fact we could do this experiment and show Sigma Octantis being visible from all locations at the same time all visible due south... What would you demand next? Or would you admit that we can all see the same stars in the southern hemisphere?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 04:53:41 AM by SphericalEarther »

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JackBlack

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2018, 01:28:00 AM »
Now, show us the evidence that this experiment has ever occurred.
And what would be the point in that?
You would just reject it, just like FEers reject so many other things.
You need to go verify it yourself or with people you trust.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2018, 05:28:40 AM »
Great.  Now, show us the evidence that this experiment has ever occurred.  Or, are we still talking about a made-up hypothetical thought experiment?  If that is the case, then I can just make up any outcome I want as well.
Blah blah blah sniffle sob...

I am not the one who came up with this cockamany scheme: the OP did.  I am sure the OP had some kind of point to make, but don't cry to me when I point out the flaws in his plan.

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SphericalEarther

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2018, 05:46:32 AM »
Great.  Now, show us the evidence that this experiment has ever occurred.  Or, are we still talking about a made-up hypothetical thought experiment?  If that is the case, then I can just make up any outcome I want as well.
Blah blah blah sniffle sob...

I am not the one who came up with this cockamany scheme: the OP did.  I am sure the OP had some kind of point to make, but don't cry to me when I point out the flaws in his plan.
Another excuse I see.

You are the one who didn't accept the OP proposition. You found a flaw where there was no flaw, and while I have tried to adhere to your demands, you keep making more demands.

First you complained that you couldn't see the stars at the same time from all 3 locations (though time does not matter in this case), I obliged and showed a case where 3 locations on different continents could all see the stars.

Then you complained that it was twilight and not night, so I obliged again with a case where 3 locations were all nighttime at the same time.
Lastly you complain that no experiment of this kind has been done, that the OP proposition is made up, and I informed you that such an experiment is unneeded, and that it is fact.

So a lot of excuses from your end.

So lets skip to the end instead of all these crazy demands, I know you already know the OP proposition is fact, you are just avoiding it.

Besides, if you needed an excuse to state a flaw in the OP, it would be that he mentions the southern cross, which is not due south and not related to the south pole star other than it provides an easy reference to find it. I believe the southern cross is about 20 degrees off from the south pole star Sigma Octantis, which would however still make it visible from all 3 locations in the OP.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 06:07:48 AM by SphericalEarther »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2018, 09:19:20 AM »
Great.  Now, show us the evidence that this experiment has ever occurred.  Or, are we still talking about a made-up hypothetical thought experiment?  If that is the case, then I can just make up any outcome I want as well.
Blah blah blah sniffle sob...

I am not the one who came up with this cockamany scheme: the OP did.  I am sure the OP had some kind of point to make, but don't cry to me when I point out the flaws in his plan.

Whaaaaa! I want my mommy!


I don't get paid to satisfy your every want and demand.  If you want to cry about my busting this thread for the shenanigans it is, then maybe you should make a thread in the Angry Ranting forum about it. 

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Dirk

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2018, 10:06:49 AM »
Now, show us the evidence that this experiment has ever occurred.
And what would be the point in that?
You would just reject it, just like FEers reject so many other things.
You need to go verify it yourself or with people you trust.
Even if jroa, Tom Bishop and John Davis would do the real experiment at these 3 location, they would come up with jroa’s favorite explanation:
It is a common misconception that light only ever travels in straight lines.
I am surprised that this argument did not come up earlier.

But if that is the case, how could sky map programmers write programs and apps, which calculate the position of stars for any given date, time and location with such accuracy? How could they take into account all these complex properties of the atmolayer, aether, dome and/or whatever? Are they all part of the conspiracy and know the true shape of the earth and have access to the necessary formulas to be able to make these calculations?

I would recommend, that some FEers try to infiltrate the conspiracy. Or if this is thought to be too dangerous, then at least disassemble an accurate sky map program/app. Then they would have all the scientific foundation for a flat earth theory.

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SphericalEarther

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2018, 12:19:42 PM »
Whaaaaa! I want my mommy!


I don't get paid to satisfy your every want and demand.  If you want to cry about my busting this thread for the shenanigans it is, then maybe you should make a thread in the Angry Ranting forum about it.
And it seems you really can't do anything but harrass and make excuses. So sad. The posterchild FEer.

Re: southern cross
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2018, 12:23:53 PM »
You all keep feeding the troll. Jroa will not even attemot to debate fairly. As usual, he is out to inflame emotions, get oeople angry and then say "ha! This proves the earth is flat". It's typical.

We can expand this question. Where is south on a flat earth? On a flat earth projection 2 people can both be facing south and still maintain an angle of 180 degrees wrt the north pole between them. South of South America is not in the same general direction as south of Australia.

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JackBlack

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Re: southern cross
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2018, 02:03:06 PM »
I am not the one who came up with this cockamany scheme: the OP did.  I am sure the OP had some kind of point to make, but don't cry to me when I point out the flaws in his plan.
Yes, that south celestial pole (a single point) is always due south. Impossible for the common FE map.

You weren't pointing out flaws, you were grasping at straws.