Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2018, 01:24:13 AM »
Ok rab, you're up. Almost time to take a picture of the Moon. According to bom.gov.au (http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/satellite/?ref=ftr) there doesn't appear to be clouds over QLD so you are good to go. Don't let the globe earthers down. Failure to provide a photo will be admitting defeat on your part.

Don't let 'em down

Hey rab, I hope your silence is due to you being busy taking a photo of the moon to show us all.

;) I'll do it, as long as I don't forget ;).

You were reminded plenty of times and the weather according to the satellites you firmly believe aren't CGI fakes show a sky that should be clear over your state. You said you would do it. So please show off your awesome photography skills. We got pictures from the Northern Hemisphere. Please knock the socks off all the flat earthers and show them one from down under

 8)

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what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2018, 03:23:23 AM »
Don't mind him. Shifter is worse than a genuine flat earther. He knows the earth isn't flat, but is only here to keep his imagination on life support.

Shifter,
There are mentally stressed people who are vulnerable to deception, and you are hurting them by playing around. You, and anyone else lobbying for flat earth for laughs; please find another hobby. This is my plea

I see the 'defender of truth' fails at comprehension also. The truth (as you should know) are that planets are not spheres. They are spherical. In defending of truth, words and indeed, semantics, matter.

How spherical must something be, before you would call it a sphere?

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2018, 03:58:59 AM »
Don't mind him. Shifter is worse than a genuine flat earther. He knows the earth isn't flat, but is only here to keep his imagination on life support.

Shifter,
There are mentally stressed people who are vulnerable to deception, and you are hurting them by playing around. You, and anyone else lobbying for flat earth for laughs; please find another hobby. This is my plea

I see the 'defender of truth' fails at comprehension also. The truth (as you should know) are that planets are not spheres. They are spherical. In defending of truth, words and indeed, semantics, matter.

How spherical must something be, before you would call it a sphere?

Until every point on the surface is the same Planck length distance to the centre.

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2018, 04:12:19 AM »
Don't mind him. Shifter is worse than a genuine flat earther. He knows the earth isn't flat, but is only here to keep his imagination on life support.

Shifter,
There are mentally stressed people who are vulnerable to deception, and you are hurting them by playing around. You, and anyone else lobbying for flat earth for laughs; please find another hobby. This is my plea

I see the 'defender of truth' fails at comprehension also. The truth (as you should know) are that planets are not spheres. They are spherical. In defending of truth, words and indeed, semantics, matter.

How spherical must something be, before you would call it a sphere?

Until every point on the surface is the same Planck length distance to the centre.

Then a gentle breeze would deform a perfect sphere to be outside that definition. Your hyper-literalism is duly noted. Now how about you address my claim that those who argue for a flat earth for kicks are potentially causing harm?

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Omnism

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2018, 05:23:41 AM »
Only one picture? Hopefully tonight will yield more.
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it” -Aristotle

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rabinoz

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2018, 05:44:16 AM »
Only one picture? Hopefully tonight will yield more.

Well, here's one more from "down under".

I didn't get this photo till 6:17 PM EAST, a bit later than I hoped. I was driving at the best time and driving and taking photos is distinctly hazardous.
But here it is:

20180628 18:17:20 1600 mm (35 mm equiv) 27° 28' 25"S 153° 01' 08"E

According to the LunaSolCalc app, the moon's Elevation at that time was 13.6° and Azimuth was 106.1°.
You might gather from the lat/long that I was on a pedestrian overbridge outside the Performing Arts Centre on the South Bank in Brisbane.

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Omnism

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2018, 05:52:16 AM »
Only one picture? Hopefully tonight will yield more.

Well, here's one more from "down under".

I didn't get this photo till 6:17 PM EAST, a bit later than I hoped. I was driving at the best time and driving and taking photos is distinctly hazardous.
But here it is:

20180628 18:17:20 1600 mm (35 mm equiv) 27° 28' 25"S 153° 01' 08"E

According to the LunaSolCalc app, the moon's Elevation at that time was 13.6° and Azimuth was 106.1°.
You might gather from the lat/long that I was on a pedestrian overbridge outside the Performing Arts Centre on the South Bank in Brisbane.

Beautiful. I wish we could like posts.

I'll do the honors of compiling all the information and putting them in an easily consumable format.

That's if anyone else wants to *shrug*
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it” -Aristotle

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2018, 05:17:07 PM »
Only one picture? Hopefully tonight will yield more.

Well, here's one more from "down under".

I didn't get this photo till 6:17 PM EAST, a bit later than I hoped. I was driving at the best time and driving and taking photos is distinctly hazardous.
But here it is:

20180628 18:17:20 1600 mm (35 mm equiv) 27° 28' 25"S 153° 01' 08"E

According to the LunaSolCalc app, the moon's Elevation at that time was 13.6° and Azimuth was 106.1°.
You might gather from the lat/long that I was on a pedestrian overbridge outside the Performing Arts Centre on the South Bank in Brisbane.

Good work  8)

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2018, 05:23:13 PM »
Don't mind him. Shifter is worse than a genuine flat earther. He knows the earth isn't flat, but is only here to keep his imagination on life support.

Shifter,
There are mentally stressed people who are vulnerable to deception, and you are hurting them by playing around. You, and anyone else lobbying for flat earth for laughs; please find another hobby. This is my plea

I see the 'defender of truth' fails at comprehension also. The truth (as you should know) are that planets are not spheres. They are spherical. In defending of truth, words and indeed, semantics, matter.

How spherical must something be, before you would call it a sphere?

Until every point on the surface is the same Planck length distance to the centre.

Then a gentle breeze would deform a perfect sphere to be outside that definition. Your hyper-literalism is duly noted. Now how about you address my claim that those who argue for a flat earth for kicks are potentially causing harm?

Spheres exist mostly in the realm of math. Not so much in nature at least on a macro scale.

I do not think people who argue or troll for flat earth are doing harm. I think any argument or debate, no matter how ludicrous it sounds is healthy overall. Think about how much information you would never have otherwise come across you have learned or looked up. I am sure the vast majority of people who enter 'flat earth' into their search engines are smart enough to distinguish what is real to what is not. What actual harm out there in the real world does somebody posting about the Earth being flat do? Maybe save your energy for those that want to post shit about how vaccines are dangerous and a conspiracy etc. THAT (IMO) does actual harm.


Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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MouseWalker

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2018, 07:53:38 PM »
Don't mind him. Shifter is worse than a genuine flat earther. He knows the earth isn't flat, but is only here to keep his imagination on life support.

Shifter,
There are mentally stressed people who are vulnerable to deception, and you are hurting them by playing around. You, and anyone else lobbying for flat earth for laughs; please find another hobby. This is my plea

I see the 'defender of truth' fails at comprehension also. The truth (as you should know) are that planets are not spheres. They are spherical. In defending of truth, words and indeed, semantics, matter.

How spherical must something be, before you would call it a sphere?

Until every point on the surface is the same Planck length distance to the centre.

Then a gentle breeze would deform a perfect sphere to be outside that definition. Your hyper-literalism is duly noted. Now how about you address my claim that those who argue for a flat earth for kicks are potentially causing harm?

Spheres exist mostly in the realm of math. Not so much in nature at least on a macro scale.

I do not think people who argue or troll for flat earth are doing harm. I think any argument or debate, no matter how ludicrous it sounds is healthy overall. Think about how much information you would never have otherwise come across you have learned or looked up. I am sure the vast majority of people who enter 'flat earth' into their search engines are smart enough to distinguish what is real to what is not. What actual harm out there in the real world does somebody posting about the Earth being flat do? Maybe save your energy for those that want to post shit about how vaccines are dangerous and a conspiracy etc. THAT (IMO) does actual harm.

For one thing, we can thank vaccines, that we no longer have smallpox.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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rabinoz

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2018, 08:12:04 PM »
Thanks guys. A very positive response. I'm suspicious: can someone clue me in to the difference between this forum and "https://forum.tfes.org"?... (genuine question)
Now you know "the difference between this forum and TFES". I see now that my ban has expired there, yours still has a bit to go ;D.

Maybe one big "difference between this forum and TFES" is that here there is no Pete Svarrior.


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Wolvaccine

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2018, 08:18:29 PM »
Thanks guys. A very positive response. I'm suspicious: can someone clue me in to the difference between this forum and "https://forum.tfes.org"?... (genuine question)
Now you know "the difference between this forum and TFES". I see now that my ban has expired there, yours still has a bit to go ;D.

Maybe one big "difference between this forum and TFES" is that here there is no Pete Svarrior.

We don't have Poncy Parsifal either

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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ICanScienceThat

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2018, 11:26:24 PM »
My camera crapped out before the moon rose above the ridge, so here's a cell phone photo. Best I could do... Will try again next month.

Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2018, 12:40:49 AM »
Don't mind him. Shifter is worse than a genuine flat earther. He knows the earth isn't flat, but is only here to keep his imagination on life support.

Shifter,
There are mentally stressed people who are vulnerable to deception, and you are hurting them by playing around. You, and anyone else lobbying for flat earth for laughs; please find another hobby. This is my plea

I see the 'defender of truth' fails at comprehension also. The truth (as you should know) are that planets are not spheres. They are spherical. In defending of truth, words and indeed, semantics, matter.

How spherical must something be, before you would call it a sphere?

Until every point on the surface is the same Planck length distance to the centre.

Then a gentle breeze would deform a perfect sphere to be outside that definition. Your hyper-literalism is duly noted. Now how about you address my claim that those who argue for a flat earth for kicks are potentially causing harm?

Spheres exist mostly in the realm of math. Not so much in nature at least on a macro scale.

I do not think people who argue or troll for flat earth are doing harm. I think any argument or debate, no matter how ludicrous it sounds is healthy overall. Think about how much information you would never have otherwise come across you have learned or looked up. I am sure the vast majority of people who enter 'flat earth' into their search engines are smart enough to distinguish what is real to what is not. What actual harm out there in the real world does somebody posting about the Earth being flat do? Maybe save your energy for those that want to post shit about how vaccines are dangerous and a conspiracy etc. THAT (IMO) does actual harm.

I can agree that I've learned a fair bit after joining the forum, but it hasn't been a very efficient or robust way to take in new knowledge. I do however still think that arguing for a flat earth while knowing that it isn't can be harmful to some. more people are succeptible to this harm than I previously thought. It's a form of deception, and some lack the intellect to do anything better than make a judgement call. I don't put the antivacc people and flat earthers in two categories. They are often the same I think. My friend is both, and heaven forbid I ever tell him my grandfather was a mason... or he'll never talk to me again.

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rabinoz

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2018, 03:32:22 AM »
Maybe one big "difference between this forum and TFES" is that here there is no Pete Svarrior.
We don't have Poncy Parsifal either
And even Junker seems to lurk under cover here.

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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2018, 09:51:03 AM »
My camera crapped out before the moon rose above the ridge, so here's a cell phone photo. Best I could do... Will try again next month.
Interesting. My work blocks inline images from Dropbox?

Anyway, I saw the photo at home and it doesn't have enough detail to really compare "roll" orientation.

I'm up for doing this again next month. On the other board, Svarrior moved the discussion to The Lounge, but with Rabinoz's photo here, we only had 3 anyway (London, San Diego, and Brisbane).

I posted a composite of all three nights bracketing the fullest moon from San Diego. I was surprised to see the moon tilted slightly from night to night, even when on nearly the same azimuth and elevation.

So I really don't understand the dynamics/geometry of what's happening on the globe earth, much less how to understand what it would look like on a flat earth, and whether or not the two would be distinguishable.


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THEREALDILL23

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2018, 12:11:11 PM »
I WOULD LIKE TO ARGUE A BETTER EXPERIMENT WHY NOT CHOOSE A SINGLE POINT IN TIME REGARDLESS OF THE TIME ZONES. AND TAKE A PHOTGRAPH OF THE SKY. THEN COMPARE.
Not you or me or nobody hits harder than life, but its not about how hard you can hit; it about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. Take the punches and keep moving forward. THAT"S HOW WINNING IS DONE!

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ICanScienceThat

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2018, 12:47:37 PM »
I WOULD LIKE TO ARGUE A BETTER EXPERIMENT WHY NOT CHOOSE A SINGLE POINT IN TIME REGARDLESS OF THE TIME ZONES. AND TAKE A PHOTGRAPH OF THE SKY. THEN COMPARE.
I agree. That would be very worthwhile. I would also like to ask for FE predictions of the results before the experiment is conducted. What do the various FE models say should happen?

Hey dude, your caps-lock is on.

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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2018, 02:28:55 PM »
I agree. That would be very worthwhile. I would also like to ask for FE predictions of the results before the experiment is conducted. What do the various FE models say should happen?
I'd like to know what the RE prediction is, and why would it be different from FE?

This is sort of along the lines of what we were doing (and can still try again in July):


But this is what you're saying would be worthwhile?


I'm still not clear on how this would present any distinction between FE and RE that isn't already ambiguous taking the upper approach.

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ICanScienceThat

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2018, 03:25:33 PM »
I agree. That would be very worthwhile. I would also like to ask for FE predictions of the results before the experiment is conducted. What do the various FE models say should happen?
I'd like to know what the RE prediction is, and why would it be different from FE?
...
I'm still not clear on how this would present any distinction between FE and RE that isn't already ambiguous taking the upper approach.

I can tell you what the RE prediction is, but I hesitate to say what the FE prediction(s) would be. I think the best way to explain the apparent rotation of the face of the moon is with a 3D simulation. It's a 3D phenomenon, and it's hard to imagine. A simple helper is to think about what happens when you cross the equator. Imagine the moon is at its peak and you are looking at it from the north. You are looking up facing south. Now imagine a person in the south looking at the same moon. They must be looking north. The 2 of you are facing each other. If the lit side of the moon is on your left, the lit side of the moon is on the southerner's right. The moon has appeared to rotate, but it's the same moon in the same place - you have rotated so that you're looking at it. The angle you rotate to look up at the moon varies with where you are on the Earth.

Depending on what you think the FE is like and where/what you think the moon is, you'll get different answers for what you should see. I've only really considered the usual Gleason map with the moon circling over it at 3000 miles. If there are any FEs out there who have an idea about this, please share. How does the moon move in your model? Do you have a prediction for how it should look when viewed from different places? I could probably help come up with that prediction if you explain your favorite model.

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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2018, 03:58:06 PM »

I can tell you what the RE prediction is, but I hesitate to say what the FE prediction(s) would be. I think the best way to explain the apparent rotation of the face of the moon is with a 3D simulation. It's a 3D phenomenon, and it's hard to imagine. A simple helper is to think about what happens when you cross the equator. Imagine the moon is at its peak and you are looking at it from the north. You are looking up facing south. Now imagine a person in the south looking at the same moon. They must be looking north. The 2 of you are facing each other. If the lit side of the moon is on your left, the lit side of the moon is on the southerner's right. The moon has appeared to rotate, but it's the same moon in the same place - you have rotated so that you're looking at it. The angle you rotate to look up at the moon varies with where you are on the Earth.

That's simple enough, and it explains the difference in orientation based on what azimuth the round earth observer has to face to look toward the moon (except for if you happen to be on the point of earth where the moon is at its zenith...or, if thinking dynamically, the latitude over which the moon is transiting, in which case it's not on any azimuth but directly overhead.

I get that. And it goes along with the critique of Appaulling's experiment proposal in which moon "rotation" or "roll" as I call it depends on the observer's rotation (azimuthal viewing). Like the bottom cartoon in this illustration:



This is the same "rotation" if a single observer tracks the moon during its transit or two observers each view the moon simultaneously from different locations. We know the moon appears to tilt/roll/rotate in that axis and why.

But that's not peculiar to a globe earth. On a flat plane earth, observers are going to see a different orientation of the moon depending on where they are on earth. The degree of "tilt" or the amount of difference between what observers see won't be the same, but then I don't have a baseline for globe earth to know what to compare a flat earth prediction to. All we know is that both globe and flat earth geometries can explain why the moon will appear oriented differently to different observers (or "roll" throughout the night). 

Depending on what you think the FE is like and where/what you think the moon is, you'll get different answers for what you should see. I've only really considered the usual Gleason map with the moon circling over it at 3000 miles. If there are any FEs out there who have an idea about this, please share. How does the moon move in your model? Do you have a prediction for how it should look when viewed from different places? I could probably help come up with that prediction if you explain your favorite model.

But you won't get different answers if simply asking the question "will the moon appear to rotate?" On the other board, they "violently" protested what globe believers were saying must be true about flat earth. They do NOT say the moon will not appear to rotate. It will.

What I think I'm hearing for you is that the so-called apparent rotation will be different for flat earth, and we can't predict what it will be given the ambiguities of flat earth models. Okay. But I can't predict it for globe earth either. If I could, then I would have a baseline to compare any flat earth geometry against that would make the two distinguishable. I can't find a table or a calculator or a simulator anywhere that shows what the moon should look like if viewed along a particular azimuth from a particular globe location at a particular date and time. Flat earth doesn't have that, but neither does the globe. It ought to be calculate-able, I know. I just don't know how to do it and it doesn't exist anywhere that I can find.

I thought I had a handle on the apparent moon orientation from my location, but was surprised to see that even on the same azimuth, and the same elevation, the moon "tilted" from 3 consecutive nights of full/near-full moon.

So, what's to be gained from having people participate in a multi-location, simultaneous full moon image capture? We already know the moon will appear oriented differently to each observer. FE claims that is true of flat earth too. So? Where does that leave us?

What Appaullingly was pitching was something different. It was the effect of earth's curvature and the resulting "tilt" of observers on different parts of the globe with respect to what each considered "up." That is a feature that is non-existent on a flat surface. Everyone on a flat surface has the same "up."

But how does that difference translate to how the moon is oriented? I don't know. If the moon is rotating for everyone, we can't just observe rotation. We need to have a baseline and make a prediction as to how much the moon will "roll" based on where one is observing from. And be able to discriminate how much apparent rotation is due to azimuth and how much might be due to global curve.

I'm lost as to how to do that. I get what Appaullingly was proposing (I think), but I also completely understand the criticism of it from the flat earthers. I'm all for collecting images and comparing, but I need to know what we're looking for and how globe earth is predicting something that the flat earth model can't demonstrate.

I'm hoping Paul re-joins when his stint in the cornfield expires, or that he sees this and chimes in. Because as much as I have enjoyed the subject, I'm kind of frustrated myself.

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ICanScienceThat

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2018, 05:13:22 PM »
But you won't get different answers if simply asking the question "will the moon appear to rotate?" On the other board, they "violently" protested what globe believers were saying must be true about flat earth. They do NOT say the moon will not appear to rotate. It will.
We can do more than "does it rotate?" Which way does it rotate? By how much? Do we actually see the same sort of rotation... that roll? Hint... on the FE model that I consider most common, we get something so different that this question isn't even really going to make sense.

What I think I'm hearing for you is that the so-called apparent rotation will be different for flat earth, and we can't predict what it will be given the ambiguities of flat earth models. Okay. But I can't predict it for globe earth either. If I could, then I would have a baseline to compare any flat earth geometry against that would make the two distinguishable. I can't find a table or a calculator or a simulator anywhere that shows what the moon should look like if viewed along a particular azimuth from a particular globe location at a particular date and time. Flat earth doesn't have that, but neither does the globe. It ought to be calculate-able, I know. I just don't know how to do it and it doesn't exist anywhere that I can find.

I thought I had a handle on the apparent moon orientation from my location, but was surprised to see that even on the same azimuth, and the same elevation, the moon "tilted" from 3 consecutive nights of full/near-full moon.
This information IS well known for the RE model, but it isn't commonly discussed. It's just not all that interesting to most people, and astronomers all know it by heart. I'll see if I can find you some good reference, or maybe I'll make you a simulation and a video. Will take some time.

So, what's to be gained from having people participate in a multi-location, simultaneous full moon image capture? We already know the moon will appear oriented differently to each observer. FE claims that is true of flat earth too. So? Where does that leave us?
If we were approaching this scientifically, we'd build 2 (or more) models. We'd then analyze what should happen with each model in this situation. If it's model a, we should see this... If it's model b, this is what we'd see. When we find a difference between the predicted results, we go into the field and measure it to see which model was better.

So if you choose a FE model, we can make a prediction of how that should look. Hint: it's not the same as the RE prediction. Then the test will show which model is correct.

Everyone taking a photo at the same moment really helps eliminate a lot of variables. How is the moon moving over time is completely eliminated. This makes the comparisons and the evaluations of the results a lot easier conceptually.

What Appaullingly was pitching was something different. It was the effect of earth's curvature and the resulting "tilt" of observers on different parts of the globe with respect to what each considered "up." That is a feature that is non-existent on a flat surface. Everyone on a flat surface has the same "up."

But how does that difference translate to how the moon is oriented? I don't know. If the moon is rotating for everyone, we can't just observe rotation. We need to have a baseline and make a prediction as to how much the moon will "roll" based on where one is observing from. And be able to discriminate how much apparent rotation is due to azimuth and how much might be due to global curve.

I'm lost as to how to do that. I get what Appaullingly was proposing (I think), but I also completely understand the criticism of it from the flat earthers. I'm all for collecting images and comparing, but I need to know what we're looking for and how globe earth is predicting something that the flat earth model can't demonstrate.

I'm hoping Paul re-joins when his stint in the cornfield expires, or that he sees this and chimes in. Because as much as I have enjoyed the subject, I'm kind of frustrated myself.
Appaullingly's experiment is just as valid, but it's more complex. Predicting what the moon should look like with each model is harder if we consider different latitudes, different longitudes, and different times. This other suggestion is to eliminate the variable of different times. We'd just see the effect of latitude and longitude.

I've got to run... I'll try to build some predictions of the "standard" FE model, and get started on some research or a simulation for you on the RE model. If any FE could provide a model and/or their predictions, I'd really appreciate that.

Let's do a science!

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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2018, 05:54:02 PM »
Imagine you and I could convince Tom Bishop to participate, assuming he's in the Bay area. We'd have 3 California locations observing the moon simultaneously. Let's say it's the next full moon in July 27th, 11pm PDT.

Before taking photos and comparing/analyzing, what does a globe earth predict? How will each of our moons appear? Which part of the moon is the index for measuring "rotation"? How much will our moons deviate from that index or from each other?

I don't know how to figure that? I know FE model hasn't built any such predictor, but has RE? Before we can challenge FE, we need to have a RE prediction. I'm not (yet) seeing a descriminator between FE and RE using this moon characteristic. All that's been claimed is that "rotation" occurs. How earth curvature imparts an effect that's distinguishable from the azimuthal influence --that's also explicable on a FE  -- hasn't been explained or modeled. At least not here.

I don't mind taking data collection pictures to try to assess what's happening or to improve a model. But we're demanding predictive models from FE that aren't evident to me in RE. If curve/latitude have an effect, how? How much? Can it be predicted before taking pictures?

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faded mike

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2018, 06:41:32 PM »
I WOULD LIKE TO ARGUE A BETTER EXPERIMENT WHY NOT CHOOSE A SINGLE POINT IN TIME REGARDLESS OF THE TIME ZONES. AND TAKE A PHOTGRAPH OF THE SKY. THEN COMPARE.
I'll participate.
"Using our vast surveillance system, we've uncovered revolutionary new information..."
           -them

theoretical formula for Earths curvature = 8 inches multiplied by (miles squared) = inches drop from straight forward

kids: say no to drugs

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ICanScienceThat

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2018, 11:45:30 PM »
Before taking photos and comparing/analyzing, what does a globe earth predict? How will each of our moons appear? Which part of the moon is the index for measuring "rotation"? How much will our moons deviate from that index or from each other?

I don't know how to figure that? I know FE model hasn't built any such predictor, but has RE? Before we can challenge FE, we need to have a RE prediction. I'm not (yet) seeing a descriminator between FE and RE using this moon characteristic. All that's been claimed is that "rotation" occurs. How earth curvature imparts an effect that's distinguishable from the azimuthal influence --that's also explicable on a FE  -- hasn't been explained or modeled. At least not here.

I don't mind taking data collection pictures to try to assess what's happening or to improve a model. But we're demanding predictive models from FE that aren't evident to me in RE. If curve/latitude have an effect, how? How much? Can it be predicted before taking pictures?
Check out Stellarium http://stellarium.org/
That will let you punch in any day, time, and place and center your view on the moon. Fiddle with the date to see how things change day to day. Fiddle with the latitude and see what that does, fiddle with the longitude and see what that does. They all cause the moon to roll.

So that's what the prediction IS... you may want to get a better understanding of why. To see how the time causes the moon to roll, just pull back far enough to see the moon and the ground and put it into fast-forward mode. You'll see how the sky turning overhead means the moon rotates. That one is easy.

To explain how latitude affects the angle, let's do it with your fingers.
1) Hold your hands in front of you
2) Right hand index finger point up. This is the moon.
3) Left hand make an OK sign. This is the earth.
4) Point the fingernails of your OK sign at your face... you're looking at your fingernails.
5) Imagine yourself on the fingernails (equator). The "moon" finger is due East. If you stood at that point, your feet would be on your fingernails and your head would be sticking up towards your face.
6) Imagine looking at the moon from there. The finger (top of the moon) points to the observer's left.
7) Now move your imaginary observer up to the knuckle of the index finger in your OK sign.
8) Look at the moon from there. The observer has his feet on your knuckle, and his head points straight up.
9) From this vantage point, the moon (your right index finger) is pointing straight up.

Longitude and date will take more thought, but does this help?

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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2018, 06:51:53 AM »
Check out Stellarium http://stellarium.org/
That will let you punch in any day, time, and place and center your view on the moon. Fiddle with the date to see how things change day to day. Fiddle with the latitude and see what that does, fiddle with the longitude and see what that does. They all cause the moon to roll.
This is pretty awesome. Thanks for the pointer. I'll play around with it and see if it answers my questions (and if it depicts the moon as I actually see it.)


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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2018, 02:48:24 PM »
Comparing Stellarium's presentation of the moon with what we actually photographed:

From San Diego on June 26th:



From San Diego on June 27th:




From London on June 27th:



From Brisbane on June 28th:



From San Diego on June 28th:




Provides pretty high confidence that Stellarium provides a good predictor of how the moon will appear to be oriented from earth locations at given times.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 03:38:27 PM by Yib »

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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2018, 03:05:02 PM »
Suppose rabinoz (Brisbane) and I (San Diego) were to photograph the waning gibbeous moon simultaneously at 1000 UTC, July 1st, 2018. 

That would be 3AM California time and 8PM Queensland time.

For me, the moon would be nearly due south and at approaching its highest elevation for the night. For Rab, the moon would be just rising.

Stellarium predicts the following orientation for each of us:



The arrows show the apparent motion of the moon as it is rising just past vertical from right to left as viewed from Brisbane, but from San Diego, I'd be seeing it nearly "tipping over" approaching horizontal as it passes left to right.

The projection of the globe earth from TimeandDate shows where the moon is at its zenith over the globe earth at this moment. And it makes sense. The azimuths each of us would be seeing the moon on make sense (Brisbane's great circle straight line looks curved on the flat projection of the globe). And the "top" of each of our moons is tilted correctly relative to the moon's motion, with the Mare Crisium along the leading edge. From San Diego, I see Mare Crisium tilted clockwise from vertical. From Brisbane, Rab would see the Sea tilted (less) counter-clockwise. You have to perform a little mental gymnastics to imagine yourself looking up at the moon. Looking down at the chart, Mare Crisium is on the left, westward-facing edge. "Top" of the moon for each observer is where the azimuth line touches the moon.

For globe earth, everything lines up. All we'd have to do is actually observe the moon to confirm what Stellarium, TimeandDate and Mooncalc predict.

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ICanScienceThat

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2018, 03:10:36 PM »
That's totally wicked dude! Beware that those orange moons Stellarium draws means the moon will be very close to the horizon. It's doing an impression of the sunset effect caused by refraction. Is that showing 2.2 degrees above the horizon? I always advise people to rely on observations that are less tainted by distortion effects. The distortion we see near the horizon is a whole different topic, and I advise you not to mix the two.

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Yib

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Re: Global experiment being undertaken on the 28th June and 27th July
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2018, 03:22:21 PM »
But now what might Flat Earth predict? Without a sim/model like Stellarium or an agreed-upon representation of the flat earth, it's hard to say. But using the standard visualization of what a disc-shaped flat earth, equidistant azimuthal-like "map" of flat earth, we can see it doesn't work:



Straight lines are straight lines on a flat earth map, and if I put the moon where TimeandDate says the moon is over the earth at 1000 UTC, I can get what seems to be a fairly decent radial line from San Diego (just east of due south). But Brisbane is all wrong. Instead of rising ESE, the moon should be appearing ENE at moonrise. Not only that, but since the moon would still be arcing on it's circle just inside of the Tropic of Capricorn, it would still show some left-to-right (southerly) drift during its morning rise before reversing and drifting right-to-left.

The "tilt" is wrong too. It's mirror opposite of what Stellarium predicts.



The red star is the "top" of the moon as seen from San Diego. But on flat earth, the blue star would be what Brisbane sees as the top, and the arrow is showing the moon's projected vector at moonrise, which is around 90 degrees off from what a globe earth predicts.

To square with what is predicted (and I'm confident would be observed were we to do this), the map for flat earth needs significant adjustment and/or some actual spin to the  moon may be theorized; however what we'd probably find is that whatever adjustments we'd make for the model to work for San Diego/Brisbane would foul up observations comparing other locations.