# Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« on: June 14, 2018, 05:02:20 PM »
Number of solar middays (noon) = Number of solar midnights;- Always

The following diagram (not to the scale) depicts the path traced by earth in its orbit (either circular or elliptical) around the sun.

Any point on the outer circle represents solar midnight while on inner circle solar noon. The length of an outer circle is greater than the length of the inner circle (or Arc I > Arc II). And hence

Anti noon (midnight points) are more than solar noon (middays points) when the earth revolves around the sun in its orbit – Any reason

« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 06:52:57 PM by E E K »

#### sumowrestler182

• 42
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 05:55:15 PM »
No, the Earth spins the same speed no matter if it's day or night. I was confused by your diagram but I believe it represents where the Earth is day and where it's night in it's orbit around the Sun (please correct me if I'm wrong.) The size of the dark area is greater because the night side of Earth is about 8000 miles further away from the Sun then the day side (assuming you are at midnight or noon respectively). As a result you actually travel a further distance if you are always at the midnight side of Earth then at the noon side. Hopefully I answered your question.
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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2018, 06:02:33 PM »
My question is more related to the number of solar middays (noon) and the number of solar midnights.

Are they equal in numbers in the arc I and arc II or after the completion of 4 years?

IMPOV - NO.

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2018, 06:31:04 PM »
Quote
I was confused by your diagram but I believe it represents where the Earth is day and where it's night in it's orbit around the Sun (please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct but the outer surface of an arc I represent midnights while the inner surface of arc II represents solar noon.

# of midnights  = # of solar noon when the length of arc I = length of arc II but arc I > arc II

sorry i add unnecessary things to my question - i removed "Does earth spin slowly during the day and faster at nights in order to keep itself fit in the orbit around the sun OR it's just a push from the sun?" in order to avoid confusion
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 06:43:25 PM by E E K »

#### sumowrestler182

• 42
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 07:00:50 PM »
My question is more related to the number of solar middays (noon) and the number of solar midnights.

Are they equal in numbers in the arc I and arc II or after the completion of 4 years?

IMPOV - NO.

Yes. There are an equal number of noons and midnights.
Legal warning:

Flat earth theory is the most nonsensical and worthless of all models. Somehow requires university education. Reading my writings is prohibited for younger then 18 years old as there is a risk of brain damage upon reading my awful/worthless nonsense.

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 07:40:29 PM »
Quote
Yes. There are an equal number of noons and midnights.

it's only possible when the length of arc I = length of arc II but arc I  >  arc II as shown in a diagram

Can you explain why the length of arc 1 > the length of arc II?

#### sumowrestler182

• 42
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 08:59:15 AM »
Quote
Yes. There are an equal number of noons and midnights.

it's only possible when the length of arc I = length of arc II but arc I  >  arc II as shown in a diagram

Can you explain why the length of arc 1 > the length of arc II?

If Earth made two trails, both marking the day and night side, the night trail would be larger since the night side travels from slightly farther from the Sun than the day side. The night and day halves of Earth are the same size, but since the night side is farther away from the Sun, it travels slightly farther, resulting in a larger area.
Legal warning:

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 11:57:42 AM »
Quote
resulting in a larger area.
- Area is irrelevant

The occurrence of the "Number of solar noons (middays)" is always equal to "Number of solar midnights" but the appearance of midnight points (anti noon) are more than middays points (solar noon) as shown in aforesaid circles (outer and inner) or 2 Arcs when the earth revolves around the sun in its orbit.

The # of midnights = # of solar noons when the length of arc I = length of arc II but arc I > arc II so can you explain please why and how?

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#### Piesigma

• 59
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2018, 01:18:23 PM »
Number of solar middays (noon) = Number of solar midnights;- Always

The following diagram (not to the scale) depicts the path traced by earth in its orbit (either circular or elliptical) around the sun.

Any point on the outer circle represents solar midnight while on inner circle solar noon. The length of an outer circle is greater than the length of the inner circle (or Arc I > Arc II). And hence

Anti noon (midnight points) are more than solar noon (middays points) when the earth revolves around the sun in its orbit – Any reason

I'm not sure I understand the question for the title of this thread but I do have a response for your introduction.

Apparently, you seem to be confusing measure (path length of an orbit) with the “number of points” in an infinite set.
Per your diagram there are not “more points” in the longer path than the shorter path since points don’t have size or measure. A point conveys position not extent or measure.
Two sets are the same size if you can map the elements with no duplicates or omissions.  This is not to say that two different length lines have the same measure.  These are different ideas.

Since we can always pair a solar noon with a solar midnight then there are the same number of points (infinite) in either path.   This is the case even though a path of these points traced through space as your diagram shows would measure two different lengths.

An example of this set stuff (“number of points”) could be demonstrated by asking how many numbers (“points”) are between 0 and 1. Then consider how many numbers are between 0 and 2.  For every number between 0 and 2 we could divide by 2 giving us the set of numbers between 0 and 1 (0/2 = 0…2/2=1).  Also, these number could either replace or map to the other set with no omissions or duplicates so they have the same size or cardinality.

Pertaining to the topic if interested:
See more on Set Theory, Bijection, cardinals, ordinals, real numbers, etc.

edited: Also see Lebesgue measure.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 01:29:40 PM by Piesigma »

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2018, 10:00:22 PM »
Piesigma,

You just confused yourself with numbers.

The Face of Arc I > Face of Arc II while time is same. Face and Time of both Arcs must equal (Arc I = Arc II) if we have equal appearances of solar noon and solar midnight. Hope I have explained it clearly enough to understand.

#### rabinoz

• 20430
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2018, 10:46:45 PM »
Number of solar middays (noon) = Number of solar midnights;- Always

The following diagram (not to the scale) depicts the path traced by earth in its orbit (either circular or elliptical) around the sun.

Any point on the outer circle represents solar midnight while on inner circle solar noon. The length of an outer circle is greater than the length of the inner circle (or Arc I > Arc II). And hence

Anti noon (midnight points) are more than solar noon (middays points) when the earth revolves around the sun in its orbit – Any reason

Certainly "Arc I > Arc II" simply because the orbital radius at the outside (midnight side) is very slightly more than that on the inside (midday side).
That means that the orbital velocity is very slightly faster for Arc I compared to Arc II.
Exactly the same thing happens on any rotating object, even a car tyre. The tread of a tyre moves faster than the bead part.

So I don't see what you mean by the "midnight points" being more than the "middays points". It's simply a matter of the bit of earth on the outside moving minutely faster than the bit of earth on the inside.

It's your "midnight points" and "midday points", as though there's a limited number of discrete points that I can't follow.

The rotation of the earth makes the calculation of actual velocities a little more complicated but there are no restrintions on these velocities.

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2018, 02:23:15 PM »
Doesn't any point on the outer circle represents solar midnight while on inner circle solar noon?

When there is a noon, there is a midnight

Simply, open up and straighten out aforementioned 3 circles (outer, middle and inner) to line segments. You will notice that

Mid Nights (Anti Noons)  >  Middays (Noons)

#### rabinoz

• 20430
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2018, 03:46:55 PM »
Doesn't any point on the outer circle represents solar midnight while on inner circle solar noon?

When there is a noon, there is a midnight

Simply, open up and straighten out aforementioned 3 circles (outer, middle and inner) to line segments. You will notice that

Mid Nights (Anti Noons)  >  Middays (Noons)
All you are saying is that the:
Circumference of the Midnight Circle  >  Circumference of the Midday Circle
Not that the:
Number of Midnights  >  Number of Middays
And that simply means that:
The earth's orbital velocity on the midnight side  >  The earth's orbital velocity on the midday side
There is no mystery in that because:
The average orbital radius on the midnight side = (149,597,871 + 6,378 km) and The average orbital radius on the midday side = (149,597,871 - 6,378 km)
I still don't see any problem.

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#### Piesigma

• 59
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2018, 10:34:41 AM »
Piesigma,

You just confused yourself with numbers.

I think you have confused yourself with your diagram and talking about "points" and referring to solar noon and solar midnight.

I may not have understood what you think the problem is but can you show where any part of my post is wrong?  It's a subject I'm newly learning about so if I said anything wrong I would appreciate some guided direction.

Quote
The Face of Arc I > Face of Arc II while time is same.

If by face you are referring to length or extent then yes that is correct and happens in the same amount of time.

Quote
Face and Time of both Arcs must equal (Arc I = Arc II) if we have equal appearances of solar noon and solar midnight.

Not True.  Clearly Arc 1 and Arc 2 are of different lengths and are traversed in the same amount of time.  Rabinoz has already shown the consequences of this with regard to orbital velocity and orbital radius.   I'll explain a bit more below.

Quote
Hope I have explained it clearly enough to understand.

So far I see nothing to understand issue-wise except your misunderstanding.  Please elaborate more if you think there is an issue.

As you have stated, the path of all solar midnights is longer than the path of all solar noons.  At each new moment there is a new solar midnight and new solar moon due to earth rotating and a new position on earth acquiring these points.

This just means that any midnight point is swept through a longer arc in space than its corresponding noon point over the same small amount of time.  I say "small amount of time" to illustrate (but be respectful of context) that the earth is continuously rotating and the points “solar noon” and “solar midnight” come and go in an instant.

There is nothing special about the rate of earth rotating including not at all regarding these path lengths having different size or extent.

Suppose the same face were always facing the sun.  In such a case there would only be one solar noon and one solar midnight that would always be at the same position on earth with the midnight path tracing out a longer arc in the same amount of time.

Much like your diagram one could spin a ball bearing or not and swing it about themselves in the same plane some distance away around a rope with no problem similar to any of these scenarios.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:03:24 AM by Piesigma »

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2018, 11:25:59 AM »
Quote
The average orbital radius on the midnight side = (149,597,871 + 6,378 km) and The average orbital radius on the midday side = (149,597,871 - 6,378 km)

Here is the caption of Question

Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?  - never indicated by our mechanical clocks

Any point on the outer circle, which represents midnight if connected to the center of the sun via a straight line passes through the noon (inner circle). When there is midnight, there is a noon, therefore, total duration/occurrence of midnights must be equivalent to the total duration/occurrence of noons and hence their lengths. We can't have multiples noons for one midnight at particular instant due to the combined effect of axial and orbital motion of the earth.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 02:48:52 PM by E E K »

#### rabinoz

• 20430
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 07:02:40 PM »
Quote
The average orbital radius on the midnight side = (149,597,871 + 6,378 km) and The average orbital radius on the midday side = (149,597,871 - 6,378 km)

Here is the caption of Question
"Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?"  - never indicated by our mechanical clocks
Just as an exercise, let's put the figures in (it's really a waste of time because . . . ):
 Average orbital velocity of earth, vorb = 29,786 m/s Average rotational velocity of earth at the equator, vrot = 465 m/s Hence: Midnight velocity of earth, vnight = 30,251 m/s Midday velocity of earth, vday = 29,321 m/s Now the time dilation factor, γ = 1/sqrt(1 - (v2/c2) So: Midnight time dilation factor, γnight = 1.0000000051 And the Midday time dilation factor, γday = 1.0000000048
So the clocks could show a difference only if they could resolve 1 part in 3,000,000,000 or about 27 µs/day and no mechanical clock can do that.

But I said above that "it's really a waste of time because" any time dilation will slow down any time measured on the local mechanical clocks by exactly the same factor.

So time dilation does not come into the picture at all.

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2018, 03:38:07 AM »
OK, here is the confusion -  Since the orbital velocity of the earth is greater than its axial rotational speed, therefore, Noon/ Midnight is the DURATION (time span). Noon or Midnight doesn't occur instantly at a particular point on the surface of the earth due to the combined effect of orbital and axial motion of the earth. Sorry, a couple of more question

Can you calculate aforesaid DURATION on the inner and outer circles?
Would the said DURATION affect sidereal and solar time/seasons etc?
Since shadow of any vertical pole would not grow during noon (DURATION) therefore would we be able to notice or measure such DURATION on earth?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:10:02 PM by E E K »

#### rabinoz

• 20430
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2018, 05:13:36 AM »
OK, here is the confusion -  Since the orbital velocity of the earth is greater than its axial rotational speed, therefore, Noon/ Midnight is the DURATION (time span). Noon or Midnight doesn't occur instantly at a particular point on the surface of the earth due to the combined effect of orbital and axial motion of the earth. Sorry, a couple of more question

Can you calculate aforesaid DURATION on the inner and outer circles?
I don't know even what you mean by the "DURATION on the inner and outer circles".

Quote from: E E K
Would the said DURATION affect sidereal and solar time?

Since shadow of any vertical pole would not grow during noon (DURATION) therefore would we be able to notice or measure such DURATION on earth?
I don't know what you mean by "during noon" = there is no "duration of noon" or "duration of midnight".
Solar noon is simply the instant when the sun is nearest to overhead and the shadow of a vertical pole will be shortest then.
"When the sun is nearest to overhead" also means that the sun is
due south of you if you are north of the current latitude of the sun and due north of you if you are south of the current latitude of the sun.

Where I live, at 27°S the sun is always to the north, so for me, solar noon is when the sun is due north or at an azimuth of 0°.
For anyone in continental USA or Europe the sun will always be to the south, so solar noon would be when the sun is due south or at an azimuth of 180°.

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#### Piesigma

• 59
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2018, 12:55:59 PM »
OK, here is the confusion -  Since the orbital velocity of the earth is greater than its axial rotational speed, therefore, Noon/ Midnight is the DURATION (time span). Noon or Midnight doesn't occur instantly at a particular point on the surface of the earth due to the combined effect of orbital and axial motion of the earth. Sorry, a couple of more question

Noon and Midnight occurs at every instant at particular points on the surface.  There is always some noon and corresponding midnight point. These points change continuously due to the combined orbit and rotation of earth.

Quote
Can you calculate aforesaid DURATION on the inner and outer circles?

If by duration you mean elapsed time, then it is the same elapsed time for the inner and outer circles.  This is why the longer midnight path has a higher orbital velocity than the shorter noon path because it must get back to essentially the same point in the same amount of time (ignoring perturbations) while traveling different distances required by the size of earth and its motion.  In other words, points near midnight swing or travel through more space (in earths orbit) than do points near noon in the same amount of time.

Quote
Would the said DURATION affect sidereal and solar time?

There is no difference in duration so the question does not follow or make sense.

Quote
Since shadow of any vertical pole would not grow during noon (DURATION) therefore would we be able to notice or measure such DURATION on earth?

Noon or midnight is an instantaneous point meaning it essentially does not have measure or duration.  This means the shadow of a vertical pole reaches a minimum for only an instant or point in time.  Points themselves don’t have measure or extent.

Asking the duration of a point in time is like asking what is the change in time of a single value such as 1.24000000168…seconds?  It is a point in time not a change in time.  Using the same example 1.24000000168 seconds could be a duration relative to some other point in time such as 0 seconds or 3.00 seconds. etc.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 01:00:40 PM by Piesigma »

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2018, 01:45:48 PM »
IMPOV
Instant Noon occurs when orbital velocity = or < axial speed. Shadows growth doesn’t stop in instant noon.

Duration Noon occurs when orbital speed > axial speed.
Noon point is dragged forward in the orbit but on the constant orbital radius (on the inner circle) for some DURATION before it spun again to afternoon due to the greater orbital velocity. Shadow growth is stopped when the sun is overhead during this "constant noon".

Would the position of earth change in its orbit for seasons due to aforementioned "Duration Noon" (when the earth (or each noon) is dragged and forward in orbit)?

Imagine the said diagram (3 circles) is a circular disc. The center of this disc is the center of the sun. The disc is rotating about its center such that the rotating speed of middle circle on a disc is equivalent to an orbital speed of earth.

The earth as shown in the diagram is another small disc. This small disc rotating about its own axis – spinning of earth

Now imagine both the bigger disc (for orbital speed) and smaller disc (for axial speed) at the same time – would you be able to find “duration noon” now?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:25:28 PM by E E K »

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#### Piesigma

• 59
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2018, 04:40:42 PM »
IMPOV
Instant Noon occurs when orbital velocity = or < axial speed. Shadows growth doesn’t stop in instant noon.

Duration Noon occurs when orbital speed > axial speed.
Noon point is dragged forward in the orbit but on the constant orbital radius (on the inner circle) for some DURATION before it spun again to afternoon due to the greater orbital velocity. Shadow growth is stopped when the sun is overhead during this "constant noon".

Would the position of earth change in its orbit for seasons due to aforementioned "Duration Noon" (when the earth (or each noon) is dragged and forward in orbit)?

Imagine the said diagram (3 circles) is a circular disc. The center of this disc is the center of the sun. The disc is rotating about its center such that the rotating speed of middle circle on a disc is equivalent to an orbital speed of earth.

The earth as shown in the diagram is another small disc. This small disc rotating about its own axis – spinning of earth

Now imagine both the bigger disc (for orbital speed) and smaller disc (for axial speed) at the same time – would you be able to find “duration noon” now?

I don't know what you mean by the majority of that post so to start:

1. By "Duration Noon" are you just referring to the path, ARC II?
2. By "Instant Noon" are you referring to any single locus point on the surface of earth that touches or becomes a point on ARC II?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 05:27:26 PM by Piesigma »

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2018, 06:39:46 PM »
The most simplified form of "Instant Noon" is when the earth spins around its axis and is stationary (it doesn't revolve around the sun (i.e orbital speed is zero) - instant Noon occurs when the orbital speed < speed of axial rotation of the earth or equal to zero.

Draw a radius r of earth at any Noon. Let R1 is the radius of the inner circle in the diagram. Both r and R1 are in a straight line at any noon. Since the orbital speed of earth > its axial rotation speed, therefore, the line r of earth transfers to another R2 but =R1 on the inner circle without axial spin (Earth doesn't have a chance to spin at that point due to the greater orbital speed). Now r is in a straight line with R2 not R1. So the earth simply moves forward in its orbit on the inner circle b/w R1 and R2 but w/o spin. This means Noon is a DURATION not Instant if it drags forward in its orbit w/o any spin. it happens when the orbital velocity of earth is greater than the speed of its axial rotation.

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#### Piesigma

• 59
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2018, 01:40:22 PM »
The most simplified form of "Instant Noon" is when the earth spins around its axis and is stationary (it doesn't revolve around the sun (i.e orbital speed is zero) - instant Noon occurs when the orbital speed < speed of axial rotation of the earth or equal to zero.

Draw a radius r of earth at any Noon. Let R1 is the radius of the inner circle in the diagram. Both r and R1 are in a straight line at any noon. Since the orbital speed of earth > its axial rotation speed, therefore, the line r of earth transfers to another R2 but =R1 on the inner circle without axial spin (Earth doesn't have a chance to spin at that point due to the greater orbital speed). Now r is in a straight line with R2 not R1. So the earth simply moves forward in its orbit on the inner circle b/w R1 and R2 but w/o spin. This means Noon is a DURATION not Instant if it drags forward in its orbit w/o any spin. it happens when the orbital velocity of earth is greater than the speed of its axial rotation.

That doesn’t make sense.

It is not reasonable or valid to compare (>,<, =) orbital speed to axial speed.  They have different units.  Orbital speed is translational and has units of Length/time (ex. km/s) whereas axial rotation is just that, rotational, and in this case an angular speed or angular-displacement/time (ex. Deg/day).  So basically you are comparing length to angle which doesn’t make sense.  To compare speeds they need to have the same units.  To compare to orbital speed you could pick a particular point on earth some distance away from the spin axis to do this for axial or rotation speed.  However, the speed of this point relative to the sun’s position is always changing reaching a maximum at midnight and minimum at noon.

Earth’s nominal orbital speed is around 30 km/s and a point on the equator of earth’s surface is traveling at approx. 0.46km/s so the orbital speed is about 65 times larger than any point on earth’s surface.
Because of this the translational rates don’t come remotely close to cancelling each other out.

The noon point is always moving along earth’s surface and isn’t stationary for any duration of time with respect to the sun and/or the earth.

A noon point on the surface of earth having any duration in time would mean that it would be constantly so and consequently so would the midnight point. The moon’s motion around the earth is a good approximate example of this as we always see roughly the same face of the moon. This is said within the context of simple circular geometry or a circular orbit which earth and the moon is not technically the case.

If you disagree and are correct you should be able to generate an epitrochoid showing that there is any single point with a noon duration on a round surface modeling earth’s rotation and orbit around the sun? Don’t worry about keeping scale or sizes just show that there is particular motion that can achieve this without being the special case like the moon about earth.

Here is an epitrochoid generator.  I pose a challenge for you to demonstrate what it is you are claiming with the noon point having duration. Again, don’t worry about scale.  Just show a point having a noon position for any duration but eventually moving on or even becoming a midnight point and so on. Aside from the particular earth/sun parameters notice a particular epitrochoid which forms a loop around the noon point.  This shows there is no time duration of the noon point even though it hits an instantaneous center of zero velocity, it is still only a minimum radial position with no duration.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/u0bupudip5

You can simply share a list of parameters or modifications you have made to the generator to allow another (myself or others) to generate and verify your results.

Good luck
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 01:59:04 PM by Piesigma »

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2018, 02:38:00 PM »
Quote
I pose a challenge for you to demonstrate what it is you are claiming with the noon point having duration. Again, don’t worry about scale.  Just show a point having a noon position

I'm novice in astronomy. It's not about the challenge but it's all about positive discussion and IMPOV. I may be wrong unless someone agrees.

Figure on the Top Right:) - NOON is an INSTANT when the stationary earth (zero orbital speed) rotates around its axis. "When there is an instant noon, there is an instant midnight as well"

Figure on the Left:)

Disc #1: It rotates about its own center which is the center of the sun. The rotation speed of this disc at R=R1=R2... is equivalent to the orbital speed of the outer surface of the earth at the equator (noons on inner circle). Disc#2 rests on Disc#1 as shown.

Disc #2 represents earth with radius r. It also rotates about its axis. The surface of the earth at the equator moves at a speed of 460 meters per second - approx

Figure on bottom Right:)

There are two types of motion of the earth
1. Earth's rotation w.r.t its axis (nearly 460 m/s) -
2. Earth's rotation w.r.t sun (nearly 30,000 m/s) -

Both r and R1 are in a straight line at any noon. Since 30,000 m/s is way greater 460 m/s, therefore, an earth orbits around the sun faster than its spin around its axis. Thus line r of earth transfers to another R2 but =R1 on the inner circle but without axial spin (Earth doesn't have a chance to spin completely at this particular moment due to the greater orbital speed) before it spun to an afternoon when the the earth moves forward in its orbit. Now r is in a straight line with R2 not R1. Hence,

Noon is a "DURATION" between B and A when an earth doesn't have a chance to spin around its axis while simply moves/ drags fast forwards in its orbit.

---:)) Even if a noon is an instant, midnight should also be an instant not multiples midnights for single/instant noon - Isn't midnight a "DURATION" due to its longer path for instant noon according to you in the previous discussion.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 03:06:55 PM by E E K »

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#### Piesigma

• 59
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2018, 04:03:41 PM »
Quote
I pose a challenge for you to demonstrate what it is you are claiming with the noon point having duration. Again, don’t worry about scale.  Just show a point having a noon position

I'm novice in astronomy. It's not about the challenge but it's all about positive discussion and IMPOV. I may be wrong unless someone agrees.

I too would consider myself very novice in astronomy as well as rigorous mathematical proof.  By challenge I’m attempting in the best way I know how of opening the door for myself being wrong in the sense that here is a tool (epitrochoid generator) that is capable of modeling this motion and if I am wrong there should be a way to show that noon has duration.  I can’t think of any parameters of motion similar to the earth sun motion that would allow this to be the case.  So by “challenge” I meant positive and constructive way of demonstrating the case with tools that can show these dynamics properly.  I too may be wrong at some level and I would love to learn why I am wrong and improve my own-point-of-view if that is the case.  This is why I am learning about set theory and other new topics all the time to improve my-point-of-view.  All I am doing is trying to apply what I have learned in an accurate, sensible, and logical way.

I think the state of being wrong/correct or more wrong/correct depends on more than other people simple agreeing at a particular time.  I have proven myself wrong far more times in life than ever correct or approximately correct (sufficiently correct)

To me I would call this an improvement in my-own-point-of-view.

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Figure on the Top Right:) - NOON is an INSTANT when the stationary earth (zero orbital speed) rotates around its axis. "When there is an instant noon, there is an instant midnight as well"

So if we were to consider earth stationary in its orbit but still spinning you are saying that noon comes and goes in an instant and has no duration?  If so, I agree but instant noon is not restricted to this case.

Figure on the Left:)

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Disc #1: It rotates about its own center which is the center of the sun. The rotation speed of this disc at R=R1=R2... is equivalent to the orbital speed of the outer surface of the earth at the equator (noons on inner circle). Disc#2 rests on Disc#1 as shown.

Disc #2 represents earth with radius r. It also rotates about its axis. The surface of the earth at the equator moves at a speed of 460 meters per second - approx

The rotation speed should have units of length/time making it a speed.  R is only a length.  But I think I understand what you mean by the disk having the same orbital speed as the noon or inner circle as well as the disk with radius r modeling earth rotating around its axis.  I wouldn’t take that to mean that we should or could look at this like a set of meshed gears or disks in contact and being driven by one or the other disc.  That would be a different case because the bigger disk is simply tracking a point on earth called noon, not driving or being driven in a mechanical sense like gears.

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Figure on bottom Right:)

There are two types of motion of the earth
1. Earth's rotation w.r.t its axis (nearly 460 m/s) -
2. Earth's rotation w.r.t sun (nearly 30,000 m/s) -

Both r and R1 are in a straight line at any noon. Since 30,000 m/s is way greater 460 m/s, therefore, an earth orbits around the sun faster than its spin around its axis. Thus line r of earth transfers to another R2 but =R1 on the inner circle but without axial spin (Earth doesn't have a chance to spin at this particular moment due to the greater orbital speed) before it spun to an afternoon when the the earth moves forward in its orbit. Now r is in a straight line with R2 not R1. Hence,

Noon is a "DURATION" between B and A when an earth doesn't have a chance to spin around its axis while simply moves/ drags fast forwards in its orbit.

---:)) Even if a noon is an instant, midnight should also be an instant not multiples midnights for single/instant noon - Isn't midnight a "DURATION" due to its longer path for instant noon according to you in the previous discussion.

This is where I cannot follow your reasoning because while there happens to always be some noon constantly along the noon path B to A it occurs at a continually different position on earth’s surface because earth rotates continuously and the translational rates being far different in magnitude do not negate each other anywhere for duration.  This means no point on earths surface has a noon duration only an exact noon point.

This is why I think the epitrochoid is capable of demonstrating this combined motion (orbit and rotation) continuously.  Referring to the web application or generator itself, it may not be able to resolve the particular earth/sun moon scale and parameters but it should be able to show a case very similar to the earth/sun and combined motions as you are referring to in your diagrams.

Can you show a constant R (distance) path along A to B for any amount of time that doesn’t remain a constant R path for all time on the epitrochoid generator?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 04:13:32 PM by Piesigma »

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2018, 05:52:50 PM »
Epitrochoid/ Generator is just humanly manipulated web application -  It can miss many things including what I am talking about.

Back to the original question:

Do you agree midnight (Arc I in the diagram) is a "DURATION" due to its longer path in space and greater velocity in the earth's orbit for any instant noon in/on Arc II if not then why there is a drag of midnight OR Arc I > Arc II?

I think here is the confusion (may be wrong): You consider the earth's drag w/o spin on outer circle due to its greater velocity but ignore earth is also dragged on an inner circle due to its velocity (not zero) though less as compared to on outer circle.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 06:12:38 PM by E E K »

#### rabinoz

• 20430
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2018, 05:59:00 PM »
Do you agree midnight (Arc I in the diagram) is a "DURATION" due to its longer path in space and greater velocity in the earth's orbit for any instant noon in/on Arc II if not then why there is a drag of midnight OR Arc I > Arc II?
I'm afraid no-one has a clue what you are talking about with your " 'DURATION' due to its longer path in space".

Midnight and midday don't have durations.

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2018, 06:15:50 PM »
Quote
Midnight and midday don't have durations
- if they don't have DURATIONS, then my question is why Arc I is greater than Arc II

#### rabinoz

• 20430
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2018, 06:22:30 PM »
Quote
Midnight and midday don't have durations
- if they don't have DURATIONS, then my question is why Arc I is greater than Arc II
Because Arc I is at a greater radius than Arc II and circumference 2 x pi x radius.

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#### E E K

• 190
##### Re: Does time dilate during nighttime when the earth orbits the sun?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2018, 12:01:20 PM »
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Because Arc I is at a greater radius than Arc II and circumference 2 x pi x radius.

My question is in reference to Midnight and Noon -

Each point on the outer circle represents the MIDNIGHT on an outer surface of the earth at the equator - Right
Each point on the inner circle represents the MIDDAY on an outer surface of the earth at the equator - Right

There is a Midnight for every Noon if both Noon and Midnight are instant - Right.

Therefore, shouldn't Arc I = Arc II if both Midnight and Midday are instant and equal in numbers but Arc I > Arc II - Any special reasons???
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 12:08:27 PM by E E K »