Just my two cents

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JRoweSkeptic

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Just my two cents
« on: June 14, 2018, 12:40:04 PM »
Like some kind of fool I actually care about this site. There needs to be a good site for FE discussion and debate somewhere and this seems to be the best bet. At the very least it's active, and isn't run by a tyrant. But as literally every user who tries to debate as a FEer, it is currently unusable.

Instead of brushing that aside, pay attention for once.

This is a major, systemic, long-term problem that has been well-established for quite a while now, and nothing is being done. Nothing has ever been done. A huge swathe of your userbase finds that this site fails at its most basic intended purpose and that apparently isn't considered a flaw worth fixing. I don't even know any more.
But in the vain hope that someone actually is going to read this, like it isn't just going to be ignored like every other attempt to change something about the site, I'd like to list some of the more major things that stand out.

Take the status quo, and shove it
This seems to be a factor. Everyone is so focused on defending the way things are that they don't bother to look for better ways. Take the big three FE forums; they suck. They are not used for their intended purpose in the slightest. FE Q&A is just a mess because everyone gets too passionate to not debate, FE General and FE Debate have basically ended up being the same thing. Sure, the intent behind them is different and fine, but who cares when that isn't what's resulting?

In an ideal world I'd suggets locking them, archiving them and making three subforums. FE Basic to serve as what Q&A is meant to be, for all the noobs to repeat the same stock arguments endlessly. FE Advanced to serve as proper debate, for the more developed and interesting arguments like neutrinos, or things that specifically address specific FE models rather than the generic 'gotcha!' shit that plagues the forum. And third, RE Defense or some such thing, where the flaws in RET can be discussed.
Normally I'd be more hesitant before suggesting a major change like this, except I have my own forum. If your host is remotely competent all that would take maybe five minutes. And it has a better use too; it completely clears out the backlog. Change the search default to not go over the FEG/Q&A/FED forums (though still have them be tickable boxes) and hopefully we will only need to have the same old discussions once. Answers can actually be found more easily then. The search function, yet another feature of the forum that fails in its intended purpose, will work.

More generally though, just look back at the site. There were plenty of discussions about having a formal debate section, a mass PM option, enthusiastic responses... and nothing ever comes from it.
People want change. That is evident. Do something.

Letter and spirit of the law
You have users who dedicate themselves to making this site as hostile and toxic as possible. I'll admit I've dipped into that side more than once when the frustration at putting up with this place gets to be too much, and that's the problem. You have a few basic good behavior rules, that barely get enforced but whatever, and that isn't enough. Punish the users who don't follow the spirit of the rules either, who might toe the line but can lawyer their way around to be technically following them, and who still make the site unpleasant.

This site should not be a chore to use. The fact it is, is the problem.
As I've mentioned before, making this site toxic, maintaining that environment, cripples the moderation team. What's the worst you can do, ban someone? Congrats, you've given them a vacation. Best case scenario you've banned someone who actually cares about the FE debate and was incensed by troublemakers and trolls, worst case you've banned someone that really doesn't give a damn and'll be back to do the same just as soon as it runs out.
You need this site to be enjoyable. That is the only way for the moderation team to have any power. Accept the fact it isn't, you know full well why, pretty much every user of consequence does, and do something about it already.
Banning the users that make this site a chore is not a loss. If someone is unpleasant then they've got to go, even if they can smarm their way onto the right side of the letter of the law.

Ignorance is a problem
This ties into my first point. Too many noobs, whether they've been here for years or for days, asking after the same tedious dull stock points that everyone is sick of. Freshen up the FAQ and/or wiki, hell go ask Jane to write it given she seems to have done more to make an FAQ than any of the actual staff here, have the terms and conditions upon signing up (and if this forum has an introductory PM, that too) link to it, tell noobs to read it, and if someone is not willing to put in that tiniest bit of effort and read the most basic few questions before making demands, warn and ban them. They are not someone to prize the presence of.

I am quite literally begging you at this point. Make this site usable, make it good, don't just ignore the constant requests for improvement that you get.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 01:12:24 PM »
Came here to find a rant with all caps and profanity. Was mildly disappointed.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2018, 02:39:20 PM »
Like some kind of fool I actually care about this site. There needs to be a good site for FE discussion and debate somewhere and this seems to be the best bet. At the very least it's active, and isn't run by a tyrant. But as literally every user who tries to debate as a FEer, it is currently unusable.

Instead of brushing that aside, pay attention for once.

This is a major, systemic, long-term problem that has been well-established for quite a while now, and nothing is being done. Nothing has ever been done. A huge swathe of your userbase finds that this site fails at its most basic intended purpose and that apparently isn't considered a flaw worth fixing. I don't even know any more.
But in the vain hope that someone actually is going to read this, like it isn't just going to be ignored like every other attempt to change something about the site, I'd like to list some of the more major things that stand out.

Take the status quo, and shove it
This seems to be a factor. Everyone is so focused on defending the way things are that they don't bother to look for better ways. Take the big three FE forums; they suck. They are not used for their intended purpose in the slightest. FE Q&A is just a mess because everyone gets too passionate to not debate, FE General and FE Debate have basically ended up being the same thing. Sure, the intent behind them is different and fine, but who cares when that isn't what's resulting?

In an ideal world I'd suggets locking them, archiving them and making three subforums. FE Basic to serve as what Q&A is meant to be, for all the noobs to repeat the same stock arguments endlessly. FE Advanced to serve as proper debate, for the more developed and interesting arguments like neutrinos, or things that specifically address specific FE models rather than the generic 'gotcha!' shit that plagues the forum. And third, RE Defense or some such thing, where the flaws in RET can be discussed.
Normally I'd be more hesitant before suggesting a major change like this, except I have my own forum. If your host is remotely competent all that would take maybe five minutes. And it has a better use too; it completely clears out the backlog. Change the search default to not go over the FEG/Q&A/FED forums (though still have them be tickable boxes) and hopefully we will only need to have the same old discussions once. Answers can actually be found more easily then. The search function, yet another feature of the forum that fails in its intended purpose, will work.

More generally though, just look back at the site. There were plenty of discussions about having a formal debate section, a mass PM option, enthusiastic responses... and nothing ever comes from it.
People want change. That is evident. Do something.

Letter and spirit of the law
You have users who dedicate themselves to making this site as hostile and toxic as possible. I'll admit I've dipped into that side more than once when the frustration at putting up with this place gets to be too much, and that's the problem. You have a few basic good behavior rules, that barely get enforced but whatever, and that isn't enough. Punish the users who don't follow the spirit of the rules either, who might toe the line but can lawyer their way around to be technically following them, and who still make the site unpleasant.

This site should not be a chore to use. The fact it is, is the problem.
As I've mentioned before, making this site toxic, maintaining that environment, cripples the moderation team. What's the worst you can do, ban someone? Congrats, you've given them a vacation. Best case scenario you've banned someone who actually cares about the FE debate and was incensed by troublemakers and trolls, worst case you've banned someone that really doesn't give a damn and'll be back to do the same just as soon as it runs out.
You need this site to be enjoyable. That is the only way for the moderation team to have any power. Accept the fact it isn't, you know full well why, pretty much every user of consequence does, and do something about it already.
Banning the users that make this site a chore is not a loss. If someone is unpleasant then they've got to go, even if they can smarm their way onto the right side of the letter of the law.

Ignorance is a problem
This ties into my first point. Too many noobs, whether they've been here for years or for days, asking after the same tedious dull stock points that everyone is sick of. Freshen up the FAQ and/or wiki, hell go ask Jane to write it given she seems to have done more to make an FAQ than any of the actual staff here, have the terms and conditions upon signing up (and if this forum has an introductory PM, that too) link to it, tell noobs to read it, and if someone is not willing to put in that tiniest bit of effort and read the most basic few questions before making demands, warn and ban them. They are not someone to prize the presence of.

I am quite literally begging you at this point. Make this site usable, make it good, don't just ignore the constant requests for improvement that you get.

Hear hear man, we are losing good honest people to the shit way this forum is handled and run. You have my vote for being a mod.

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hoppy

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 06:27:26 AM »
Jrowe has brought up some good points. Making an area for noobs to find answers to common questions would be helpful. The trolls and shills always jump in to throw off the noobs and piss them off or ridicule them. So there is usually no reason to give noobs  a reasonable answer to questions, as the thread will be immediately bombarded with RE propaganda many times over.
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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 01:10:33 PM »
The trolls and shills always jump in to throw off the noobs and piss them off or ridicule them.

Hey sheepy, how about you quote me one single post of yours that isn't trying to ridicule someone or otherwise be offensive. Just one. Take your time, I'm here indefinitely.
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I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 02:45:24 PM »
Well, the post he just made here seems alright. What are you playing at?

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 06:05:07 PM »
Jrowe has brought up some good points. Making an area for noobs to find answers to common questions would be helpful. The trolls and shills always jump in to throw off the noobs and piss them off or ridicule them. So there is usually no reason to give noobs  a reasonable answer to questions, as the thread will be immediately bombarded with RE propaganda many times over.

We already have a section like that.  It is the Q&A forum,  and we try to keep the permanoob propaganda out. 

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markjo

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2018, 12:11:05 PM »
Jrowe has brought up some good points. Making an area for noobs to find answers to common questions would be helpful.
Do you mean like a FAQ or a Wiki?
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hoppy

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2018, 08:23:21 AM »
Jrowe has brought up some good points. Making an area for noobs to find answers to common questions would be helpful.
Do you mean like a FAQ or a Wiki?
Yes, something similar to them.
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sokarul

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2018, 09:06:56 AM »
The ratio of noobs to actual flat earthers is around 500:1 so it makes any section for them worthless.
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rabinoz

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2018, 01:44:25 AM »
Jrowe has brought up some good points. Making an area for noobs to find answers to common questions would be helpful.
Do you mean like a FAQ or a Wiki?
Yes, something similar to them.
Then why don't you flat-earthers fix the existing FAQ and Wiki? Lots of errors and inconsistencies have been pointed out by many FEers and others.

Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2018, 12:56:51 PM »
Well, the post he just made here seems alright. What are you playing at?

He's having a pop at "trolls and shills" (not that shills even exist here). Hoppy can't make posts that aren't in some way complaining about someone else, usually with swearing. I'm challenging him to prove otherwise.
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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hoppy

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2018, 10:24:42 AM »
The ratio of noobs to actual flat earthers is around 500:1 so it makes any section for them worthless.
You are worthless.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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sokarul

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2018, 07:56:37 AM »
The ratio of noobs to actual flat earthers is around 500:1 so it makes any section for them worthless.
I am worthless.

We all know.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 02:22:17 PM »
Well, the post he just made here seems alright. What are you playing at?

He's having a pop at "trolls and shills" (not that shills even exist here). Hoppy can't make posts that aren't in some way complaining about someone else, usually with swearing. I'm challenging him to prove otherwise.

The ratio of noobs to actual flat earthers is around 500:1 so it makes any section for them worthless.
You are worthless.

No further questions. Your witness.  ::)
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2018, 04:34:22 PM »
Quote
We already have a section like that.  It is the Q&A forum,  and we try to keep the permanoob propaganda out.
Quote
Everyone is so focused on defending the way things are that they don't bother to look for better ways.
...
FE Q&A is just a mess because everyone gets too passionate to not debate,


Quote
Do you mean like a FAQ or a Wiki?
Quote
Then why don't you flat-earthers fix the existing FAQ and Wiki? Lots of errors and inconsistencies have been pointed out by many FEers and others.
Quote
Too many noobs, whether they've been here for years or for days, asking after the same tedious dull stock points that everyone is sick of. Freshen up the FAQ and/or wiki, hell go ask Jane to write it given she seems to have done more to make an FAQ than any of the actual staff here, have the terms and conditions upon signing up (and if this forum has an introductory PM, that too) link to it, tell noobs to read it, and if someone is not willing to put in that tiniest bit of effort and read the most basic few questions before making demands, warn and ban them.



And then there are just roundies trolling in S&C. No changes, no response, no actual acknowledgement of my post.
The problem isn't with FEers, it's with this site and the inability of the staff to actually do or change anything. How many people have come to S&C now begging for some change, some simple new feature? How often does it even get discussed, let alone implemented?

And I see we've lost more since I was last here. Staff, you must be so proud. The blame for that is squarely on your shoulders.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

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Crouton

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2018, 04:36:38 PM »
Alright. Work with me then. Pick a few questions in s&c that you feel come up too much and write some answers. I'll clean it up and see about making it sticky.
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boydster

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2018, 05:28:31 PM »
Let's make FAQ great again!

Here are a couple questions that I know come up a lot and should be addressed somewhere easily accessible. I think we need to add to this list to address the questions first, highlight the 10000-foot-high answer(s) to go along with the question, then we can drill down into making sure we get everything gussied up for the masses.

Q: What are the current FE models being discussed?
A1: Unipolar Disc
A2: Bipolar Disc
A3: Infinite Earth

Q: How does gravity work?
A1: UA
   Q: But wouldn't Earth go faster than the speed of light in very short order?
   A: Jesus H Christ no stop asking that god dammit I will murder your kittens (link to explanation of equivalence principle and explantion that things can accelerate constantly forever just fine)
   Q: What about variations in the measured force of Gravity over the Earth>
   A: I know Ski has a good answer to this, but I don't recall
A2: Denpressure (linked to denpressure explanation)


This is just a quick couple of ideas, I realize there are a lot more, but we really need a collaborative document that we can work off, I think. At least to flesh out how the FAQ should read initially. And one that we can be selective about who gets to contribute. I think we have some potential great contributors in JRowe, Sandokhan, and BotD, but we can't just have anyone and everyone causing chaos.

Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2018, 01:29:26 PM »
As the most renowned RET poster in these parts I must admit I disagree wholr heartedly with your post.

The majority of debates on this forum are educational and enjoyable.

There's just one guy who routinely loses his shit and gets banned for it but he only posts sporadically now.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2018, 02:07:35 PM »
As the most renowned RET poster in these parts
The what? Who the fuck are you?
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2018, 02:28:44 PM »
As the most renowned RET poster in these parts
The what? Who the fuck are you?

I told you who i am, the most renowned RET poster.

I'm yet to ever lose a debate with an FET poster and I have a degree in mathematics which makes me more qualified than most who frequent this site.

I am the most renowned RET poster.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Just my two cents
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2018, 02:29:36 PM »
 ::)
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)