JRowe yet again refuting basic tenets of RE science: this time around, heat

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JRoweSkeptic

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Time for an experiment. On a sunny day, boil some water, pour it into a mug. Leave it.
Give it a few hours and it will be cold. If you touch it, it will feel cold. But logically it started off warmer than the air around it, and could not end up colder simply by being left to cool. The water is room temperature, according to current scientific theory.
But if you touch it, it will feel cold. Why is that, why would it feel colder than something that should be the same temperature?

And that's the point the more dishonest posters on this forum are going to stop reading, going to google the mainstream answer and then post that while yelling at me. Ignore them.
Because there is a supposed answer to this; heat capacity. The problem is that it's nonsense.
The idea is that it is harder to heat up water than it is air, because water being a liquid has many more molecules to heat up. Our bodies, being warmer, lose their heat to try and heat up the water/air and in doing so feel colder because they lose more heat to the water.
The problem is, this is nonsense.

There are a few ways to prove this. The first is a more interesting experiment, for warmer climes. When the natural temperature is around 100F, warmer than body temperature, perform the same experiment. You should have no reason to find the water cool if your body does not need to heat it up.

Otherwise, for the rest of us, there's an easy way to think about this. Water has more heat, that's what those molecules mean. There's a lot more tiny little balls acting to warm you up. Even when they're colder, they have far more energy than the air. That's part of it.
The second part is the most important though, and it's speed. if your body is genuinely losing some of its heat to warm up the water around it, it should not be basically instantaneous upon touching room temperature water. It takes time to lose heat, the difference between water and air should therefore take actual time to notice and make any kind of difference in what you feel.

the real explanation is trivial. Water is not intelligent, when it cools down it does not know how much energy needs to dissipate. If it sends too little, it has to keep cooling. Obviously then, eventually, it will need to send too much; sending the exact amount is so absurdly unlikely as to be impossible.
Now the air will try to warm it again, but the same holds. It sends too much, the water responds by doing the same. And that's just the surface level.
If you left it indefinitely, it would eventually even out, but that's assuming uniform temperature in the environment, which is unlikely.

It's simple, intuitive, the principle observed over and over, with huge implications. It's fundamental to certain FE models too.

And before you hit me with that 'but a thermometer says they're the same,' a thermometer cannot reasonably be expected to give an accurate reading from two separate mediums. A liquid imparts more pressure, thus gives a false reading of higher temperature. And, yes, the pressure can be exerted through the glass, matter isn't 100% rigid and unmoving.
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markjo

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Time for an experiment. On a sunny day, boil some water, pour it into a mug. Leave it.
Give it a few hours and it will be cold. If you touch it, it will feel cold. But logically it started off warmer than the air around it, and could not end up colder simply by being left to cool. The water is room temperature, according to current scientific theory.
But if you touch it, it will feel cold. Why is that, why would it feel colder than something that should be the same temperature?
Because the senses of "hot" and "cold" are subjective.  Different materials conduct heat at different rates and will therefore feel warmer or cooler depending on that rate.  Metal conducts heat away from your skin faster than wood does, so the metal will feel cooler.  Same with your mug of water and the air.  Water will conduct the heat away from your finger faster than the air does.  Not to mention the fact that you will feel the radiant heat from the sun as warmth as well.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 10:53:17 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Time for an experiment. On a sunny day, boil some water, pour it into a mug. Leave it.
Give it a few hours and it will be cold. If you touch it, it will feel cold. But logically it started off warmer than the air around it, and could not end up colder simply by being left to cool. The water is room temperature, according to current scientific theory.
But if you touch it, it will feel cold. Why is that, why would it feel colder than something that should be the same temperature?
Because the senses of "hot" and "cold" are subjective.  Different materials conduct heat at different rates and will therefore feel warmer or cooler depending on that rate.  Metal conducts heat away from your skin faster than wood does, so the metal will feel cooler.  Same with your mug of water and the air.  Water will conduct the heat away from your finger faster than the air does.  Not to mention the fact that you will feel the radiant heat from the sun as warmth as well.



And that's the point the more dishonest posters on this forum are going to stop reading, going to google the mainstream answer and then post that while yelling at me. Ignore them.

Amazing.
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On the sister site if you want to talk.


The problem is, this is nonsense.


I agree.

Refute = deny
Refute = disprove
You got one of 'em. Not the other.

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sokarul

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Heat capacity plays a role.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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markjo

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I stopped reading because I saw your error so early.  It isn't a question of heat capacity.  It's a question of heat transfer rate.  If you have a given delta t (difference in temperature) between a material and your hand, then the material that can transfer heat away from your hand quicker will feel cooler.  It's really that simple.

BTW, did you watch the video?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JRoweSkeptic

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I stopped reading because I saw your error so early.  It isn't a question of heat capacity.  It's a question of heat transfer rate.  If you have a given delta t (difference in temperature) between a material and your hand, then the material that can transfer heat away from your hand quicker will feel cooler.  It's really that simple.

BTW, did you watch the video?

Then you are a fucking idiot. Are you really so arrogant to believe I wouldn't dare acknowledge the existing explanation?

How about instead of completely ignoring the majority of my post, you actually respond to it?

That goes for the rest of you too. God, why do I even bother?
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

I stopped reading because I saw your error so early.  It isn't a question of heat capacity.  It's a question of heat transfer rate.  If you have a given delta t (difference in temperature) between a material and your hand, then the material that can transfer heat away from your hand quicker will feel cooler.  It's really that simple.

BTW, did you watch the video?

Then you are a fucking idiot. Are you really so arrogant to believe I wouldn't dare acknowledge the existing explanation?

How about instead of completely ignoring the majority of my post, you actually respond to it?

That goes for the rest of you too. God, why do I even bother?

I'd like to know why you bother also, because you obviously don't understand the physical world.

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Twerp

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I stopped reading because I saw your error so early.  It isn't a question of heat capacity.  It's a question of heat transfer rate.  If you have a given delta t (difference in temperature) between a material and your hand, then the material that can transfer heat away from your hand quicker will feel cooler.  It's really that simple.
Yes.

But refusing to look at someone's alternate explanation for a phenomenon because you're so confident you already know the answer isn't very scientific. At least not according to what science used to mean.
“Heaven is being governed by Devil nowadays..” - Wise

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JRoweSkeptic

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I stopped reading because I saw your error so early.  It isn't a question of heat capacity.  It's a question of heat transfer rate.  If you have a given delta t (difference in temperature) between a material and your hand, then the material that can transfer heat away from your hand quicker will feel cooler.  It's really that simple.

BTW, did you watch the video?

Then you are a fucking idiot. Are you really so arrogant to believe I wouldn't dare acknowledge the existing explanation?

How about instead of completely ignoring the majority of my post, you actually respond to it?

That goes for the rest of you too. God, why do I even bother?

I'd like to know why you bother also, because you obviously don't understand the physical world.

And you don't understand the concept of answering a simple question, I see.

This is pathetic. I make a straight point, and it gets ignored, lied about, and evaded, and you're just going to chalk it up as a victory regardless despite the fact NO ONE HAS EVEN TRIED TO ANSWER.

You sicken me.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

I stopped reading because I saw your error so early.  It isn't a question of heat capacity.  It's a question of heat transfer rate.  If you have a given delta t (difference in temperature) between a material and your hand, then the material that can transfer heat away from your hand quicker will feel cooler.  It's really that simple.

BTW, did you watch the video?

Then you are a fucking idiot. Are you really so arrogant to believe I wouldn't dare acknowledge the existing explanation?

How about instead of completely ignoring the majority of my post, you actually respond to it?

That goes for the rest of you too. God, why do I even bother?

I'd like to know why you bother also, because you obviously don't understand the physical world.

And you don't understand the concept of answering a simple question, I see.

This is pathetic. I make a straight point, and it gets ignored, lied about, and evaded, and you're just going to chalk it up as a victory regardless despite the fact NO ONE HAS EVEN TRIED TO ANSWER.

You sicken me.

its because you don't listen anyway

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markjo

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I stopped reading because I saw your error so early.  It isn't a question of heat capacity.  It's a question of heat transfer rate.  If you have a given delta t (difference in temperature) between a material and your hand, then the material that can transfer heat away from your hand quicker will feel cooler.  It's really that simple.

BTW, did you watch the video?

Then you are a fucking idiot. Are you really so arrogant to believe I wouldn't dare acknowledge the existing explanation?
Except that your version of the "existing explanation" isn't correct.  You said "Because there is a supposed answer to this; heat capacity." and I'm telling you that isn't so.  It's the rate at which heat is transferred.  A mug of water at 80F will feel much cooler than still air at 80F because the water can absorb heat from your body faster than the still air can.  In the same way 80F air moving at 5 ft/sec will feel much cooler than 80F still air because the moving air can transfer heat much faster than still air.

How about instead of completely ignoring the majority of my post, you actually respond to it?
Why should I bother with the rest of your post when your initial premise is so obviously flawed?  Or did you intend to present a straw man argument? 

That goes for the rest of you too. God, why do I even bother?
Good question.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Quote
its because you don't listen anyway
You're one to talk.

Quote
Except that your version of the "existing explanation" isn't correct.  You said "Because there is a supposed answer to this; heat capacity." and I'm telling you that isn't so.  It's the rate at which heat is transferred.  A mug of water at 80F will feel much cooler than still air at 80F because the water can absorb heat from your body faster than the still air can.  In the same way 80F air moving at 5 ft/sec will feel much cooler than 80F still air because the moving air can transfer heat much faster than still air.
Do you even know what heat capacity is?! If you can't connect the dots from heat capacity to the transfer of heat, you are a fucking moron. THAT IS EXACTLY THE SITUATON I DESCRIBED AND REFUTED IN MY POST. INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE YOU ARE PROVIDING NEW INFORMATION, HOW ABOUT YOU LEARN TO FUCKING READ?

WHY. DO. I. FUCKING. BOTHER

EVERY TIME>
EVERY FUCKING TIME I come back here and you people LIE TO MY FUCKING FACE
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dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

Quote
its because you don't listen anyway
You're one to talk.

Quote
Except that your version of the "existing explanation" isn't correct.  You said "Because there is a supposed answer to this; heat capacity." and I'm telling you that isn't so.  It's the rate at which heat is transferred.  A mug of water at 80F will feel much cooler than still air at 80F because the water can absorb heat from your body faster than the still air can.  In the same way 80F air moving at 5 ft/sec will feel much cooler than 80F still air because the moving air can transfer heat much faster than still air.
Do you even know what heat capacity is?! If you can't connect the dots from heat capacity to the transfer of heat, you are a fucking moron. THAT IS EXACTLY THE SITUATON I DESCRIBED AND REFUTED IN MY POST. INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE YOU ARE PROVIDING NEW INFORMATION, HOW ABOUT YOU LEARN TO FUCKING READ?

WHY. DO. I. FUCKING. BOTHER

EVERY TIME>
EVERY FUCKING TIME I come back here and you people LIE TO MY FUCKING FACE

I can explain all of this to you in a clear and verifiable way, but you have made it clear that you don't care. I do thermal calculations regularly, and guess what? I then verify them in testing. So do you want to understand this, or just make up stories?

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markjo

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the real explanation is trivial. Water is not intelligent, when it cools down it does not know how much energy needs to dissipate. If it sends too little, it has to keep cooling. Obviously then, eventually, it will need to send too much; sending the exact amount is so absurdly unlikely as to be impossible.
I really don't think that you understand how heat transfer works.  The water is not trying to dissipate an "exact amount" of heat.  It's simply trying to reach thermal equilibrium with its environment by releasing as much energy as its environment is able to absorb.  As the delta t gets smaller, the rate at which the water dissipates its heat will slow down.

Now the air will try to warm it again, but the same holds. It sends too much, the water responds by doing the same. And that's just the surface level.
Not quite sure what you're trying to say here.  It isn't a see-saw process where the water release a certain amount of heat and then the air tries to return any excess energy.  No, the transfer is always from high energy to lower energy and stops once equilibrium is achieved.

If you left it indefinitely, it would eventually even out, but that's assuming uniform temperature in the environment, which is unlikely.
Yes, that evening out is called equilibrium and it happens all the time.  At least in a controlled environment (which is where most scientific experiments are conducted). 

It's simple, intuitive, the principle observed over and over, with huge implications. It's fundamental to certain FE models too.
It's also not very far off from what RE says.  You just have a few basic concepts mixed up.

And before you hit me with that 'but a thermometer says they're the same,' a thermometer cannot reasonably be expected to give an accurate reading from two separate mediums. A liquid imparts more pressure, thus gives a false reading of higher temperature. And, yes, the pressure can be exerted through the glass, matter isn't 100% rigid and unmoving.
Of course thermometers can be expected to give accurate readings regardless of the medium.  That's what thermometers are designed to do.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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hoppy

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What the fuck!!! Why do I even bother??

You motherfucking Moran's!!
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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Space Cowgirl

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He is on vacation again, let him rest.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Just gonna chime in on the off chance that somebody curious about reality is reading. If you are such a person, then I advise you to read what markjo posted carefully. He knows what he's talking about. Then go back and read JRowe's post and try to see if you can spot any differences.

Perhaps a gentle re-wording of the original claim will help...

If you leave some water out in the air for a while, eventually a thermometer will read the same in the water and the air. (Not disputed) This happens over and over again with any two mediums. (Not disputed) We call the number that the thermometer reads the "temperature". (Not disputed) Temperature does not mean how hot or cold the medium FEELS. It means what the thermometer reads. We find this number useful because of that tendency for objects of different temperatures to reach equilibrium when in contact with each other. (Already covered this)

So why does one medium feel colder than another when they are the same temperature? Because what you're feeling is the heat transfer rate. You are feeling how fast the heat is being transferred out of your skin into the other medium. Remember how any 2 objects in contact will try to equalize their temperature (the number the thermometer reads)? They do that by transferring heat from the hot object to the cold. Touch some cool (70F) water with your warm (98F) hand, and you'll feel the heat getting sucked out of your hand to warm up the water.

The heat transfer rate between 2 mediums varies according to the temperature difference, but also varies by the type of material.

Nothing I've mentioned here is in the slightest amount of dispute.

As far as I can tell, the OP basically has this correct, but has stumbled a bit only on the mistake of thinking that what he has discovered is anything other than standard science class material. What the OP is describing is called "heat transfer," and there is a required course in that for most engineering degrees.

Here is veritassium on this:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 06:16:08 PM by ICanScienceThat »

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markjo

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He is on vacation again, let him rest.
Why did he even bother?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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rabinoz

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He is on vacation again, let him rest.
And I was so careful to answer him in the politest of terms - it was such an effort.
 ;) Does JRowe get paid for all these vacations or are they all leave without pay ;)?

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boydster

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His very lavish FE vacation pay while he is away on his yacht eating fine caviar whilst a violinist plays The Devil Went Down To Georgia an annoying number of consecutive times for his enjoyment is not your concern >:(

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SphericalEarther

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This feels like a standard 'trust your senses, not the instruments' kinda post, typical of FE.

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rvlvr

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Oh, man. Why isn't this published in Nature, and Science magazines? Are they afraid it is too hot of a topic to be seen by the hoi polloi?

EDIT: After reading the post again I am even more flabbergasted by its sheer idiocy. Thermometers being unable to provide accurate results is pure comedy gold. How many of FE agree with JRowe's results? And what are the implications he mentions, the fundamentals for FE models?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 06:39:42 AM by rvlvr »

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markjo

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For someone trying to refute the basic tenets of RE science, JRowe seems to have an awfully thin skin.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

For someone trying to refute the basic tenets of RE science, JRowe seems to have an awfully thin skin.
Certainly seems like he needs a hug. Or something.
Anyway, I am tempted to support the bit about taking temperatures in different mediums (media?).
In the thermosphere (or high altitude high temperature layer, look it up) would a thermometer read the very high temperature that exists?
This points us to the difference between heat and temperature, and forces us to ask, do we measure heat, or temperature, as conventional science tells us.
Also WTF does it all have to do with RET vs FET?

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boydster

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For someone trying to refute the basic tenets of RE science, JRowe seems to have an awfully thin skin.
Certainly seems like he needs a hug. Or something.
Anyway, I am tempted to support the bit about taking temperatures in different mediums (media?).
In the thermosphere (or high altitude high temperature layer, look it up) would a thermometer read the very high temperature that exists?
This points us to the difference between heat and temperature, and forces us to ask, do we measure heat, or temperature, as conventional science tells us.
Also WTF does it all have to do with RET vs FET?

If I use my brewing thermometer to measure the temperature of a liquid vs the temperature of a gas, it hits the liquid temp fastest.

Example. Starting from ambient temperature. I place the thermometer outside on a table when it's 30°F outside vs placing it in a glass of ice water. The glass of ice water reads the correct temp first.

So I'm inclined to say, at least for temperatures that I encounter on a normal basis in my life, yes: different media will yield the same temperature reading, as long as you allow enough time for the making device to give an accurate reading based on the thing it is measuring the temperature of. But typically, liquids get there faster than gases.

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FalseProphet

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Water is not intelligent, when it cools down it does not know how much energy needs to dissipate. If it sends too little, it has to keep cooling. Obviously then, eventually, it will need to send too much; sending the exact amount is so absurdly unlikely as to be impossible.
Now the air will try to warm it again, but the same holds. It sends too much, the water responds by doing the same. And that's just the surface level.

What does that mean? I have no idea.

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Ski

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Quote from: boydster
So I'm inclined to say, at least for temperatures that I encounter on a normal basis in my life, yes: different media will yield the same temperature reading, as long as you allow enough time for the making device to give an accurate reading based on the thing it is measuring the temperature of.
What if the highly energetic gas was so thin that you radiated more heat than you were gaining from collisions with the sparse, but highly energetic gas?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

The practical reason temperature is so important, is because heat stops flowing when temperatures are at equilibrium. Or... that the heats transferred between two different mediums cancels out

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boydster

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Quote from: boydster
So I'm inclined to say, at least for temperatures that I encounter on a normal basis in my life, yes: different media will yield the same temperature reading, as long as you allow enough time for the making device to give an accurate reading based on the thing it is measuring the temperature of.
What if the highly energetic gas was so thin that you radiated more heat than you were gaining from collisions with the sparse, but highly energetic gas?

Well that would be introducing more variables from an environment different than what I encounter in my own life on a day to day basis, so those hypotheticals are ruled out of my analysis ;) For the sake of Zetetecism, of course.