apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.

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apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« on: January 05, 2007, 08:22:43 PM »
go ahead.  see what happens.
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2007, 08:39:22 PM »
Euclid and William of Occam are as different as their methods of reasoning.  Zetetic astronomy is based on Euclidean geometry which does not illogically preclude conspiracy.

The real ally of conspirators is William of Occam who defends them by philosophizing against investigation into conspiracy.  Neither Euclid nor Zetetic Astronomy opposes investigation into conspiracy.

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2007, 05:34:42 PM »
I'm not referring to Zetetic astronomy but to Zetetic  method.  The difference being that in Zetetic method you determine what you know from observation directly, not indirectly.

If this is not correct, someone please correct me.
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2007, 05:51:19 PM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
I'm not referring to Zetetic astronomy but to Zetetic  method.  The difference being that in Zetetic method you determine what you know from observation directly, not indirectly.

If this is not correct, someone please correct me.


Letís say you were correct. Then, letís go:
1. We think the world is flat. Iíve seen it, and it looks flat. This is direct observation. Iíve also seen refutations of RE experiments, and other observations of FE on my own.
2. If this were true, the the government is lying, since they believe in RE. This is the definition of a conspiracy. To accomplish this, we require all the things we say is true in the conspiracy side of things.

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2007, 10:27:07 AM »
but the conspiracy comes from inductive reasoning.

the proof you have is the world is flat, but for some reason, people believe the world is round.

Why must there be a conspiracy?
Why must it be the government lying to us?

why can't it be divine interference?
or an inability of the people to believe the world is flat?
Maybe Descartes is right about the great deceiver, or perhaps we are all the dreams of a butterfly.

There is not direct proof from observation of a conspiracy, only that for some reason people believe the world is round which does not automatically mean a conspiracy!

see my reasoning?
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2007, 02:25:45 PM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
Why must there be a conspiracy?

Because the government would be lying to us.
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Why must it be the government lying to us?

The government believes in RE, and bases everything on RE, including NASA and space travel.
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why can't it be divine interference?

This is Science, and last time I checked, divine beings arenít really taken into account.
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or an inability of the people to believe the world is flat?

Could be, but then again, the government must also be lying, or at least NASA, because under FE space travel is impossible.
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Maybe Descartes is right about the great deceiver, or perhaps we are all the dreams of a butterfly.

Maybe, but thatís irrelevant. A dream world is still a world, and weíre in it.
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There is not direct proof from observation of a conspiracy, only that for some reason people believe the world is round which does not automatically mean a conspiracy!

Fine. I see that point. Maybe people do believe in RE.
But NASA must be lying. Space travel is impossible. Everyone else could be firmly believing in RE, and I think this could all work. NASA could be hiding their FE secretsÖ
Direct proof? They say the Earth is Round, and take everything into account under those terms. Thatís a lie, and therefore a conspiracy.
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see my reasoning?

Yes, but the reasoning needs work to be hole-free.

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2007, 02:36:27 PM »
Quote
But NASA must be lying. Space travel is impossible.


proof that space travel is impossible?
he kinds of equations that they have now are the kinds of equations you would get in an approximation scheme to some underlying theory, but nobody knows what the underlying theory is.

discover magazine

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 02:40:42 PM »
Quote from: "sodapop112"
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But NASA must be lying. Space travel is impossible.


proof that space travel is impossible?

Meh. Itís in other threads.

My explanation was melting, which was researched, but I donít have the evidence currently.

Orbital space travel is impossible, because you canít rotate around a Flat Earth.

?

Erasmus

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apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2007, 02:43:23 PM »
Quote from: "zaudragon"
Orbital space travel is impossible, because you canít rotate around a Flat Earth.


Why not?
Why did the chicken cross the MŲbius strip?

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2007, 02:45:49 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "zaudragon"
Orbital space travel is impossible, because you canít rotate around a Flat Earth.


Why not?


Because it has no gravity. Isnít this part of UA?
And then again, if we were floating, the satellites would get wet!

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2007, 02:46:38 PM »
Quote
Orbital space travel is impossible, because you canít rotate around a Flat Earth.


good thing the world is a sphere
he kinds of equations that they have now are the kinds of equations you would get in an approximation scheme to some underlying theory, but nobody knows what the underlying theory is.

discover magazine

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2007, 04:57:05 PM »
Quote from: "zaudragon"

Fine. I see that point. Maybe people do believe in RE.
But NASA must be lying. Space travel is impossible. Everyone else could be firmly believing in RE, and I think this could all work. NASA could be hiding their FE secretsÖ
Direct proof? They say the Earth is Round, and take everything into account under those terms. Thatís a lie, and therefore a conspiracy.
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see my reasoning?

Yes, but the reasoning needs work to be hole-free.


But this implies that NASA knows the truth,  which is not necessarily the case.  I have been saying perhaps some other force is interfering with humanity as a whole,  which is a possibility.

My point is that using zetetic method, you can not come to any conclusion about a conspiracy unless direct evidence from observation is collected.  You are still making an assumption that a conspiracy would be necessary, ignoring other possibilities that have not been directly observed either, such as a deity or aliens.
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2007, 05:44:42 PM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
Quote from: "zaudragon"

Fine. I see that point. Maybe people do believe in RE.
But NASA must be lying. Space travel is impossible. Everyone else could be firmly believing in RE, and I think this could all work. NASA could be hiding their FE secretsÖ
Direct proof? They say the Earth is Round, and take everything into account under those terms. Thatís a lie, and therefore a conspiracy.
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see my reasoning?

Yes, but the reasoning needs work to be hole-free.


But this implies that NASA knows the truth,  which is not necessarily the case.  I have been saying perhaps some other force is interfering with humanity as a whole,  which is a possibility.

My point is that using zetetic method, you can not come to any conclusion about a conspiracy unless direct evidence from observation is collected.  You are still making an assumption that a conspiracy would be necessary, ignoring other possibilities that have not been directly observed either, such as a deity or aliens.


He has a point here, but this does not disprove a conspiracy.

The conspiracy is at this point, the most probable reason that most people believe in a round earth.  If it were some other means, then we would have to ask why WE (flat earthers) are not included in this.
quot;Pleasure for man, is not a luxury, but a profound psychological need."
-Nathaniel Branden

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2007, 05:54:58 PM »
Quote from: "Astantia"
My point is that using zetetic method, you can not come to any conclusion about a conspiracy unless direct evidence from observation is collected.  You are still making an assumption that a conspiracy would be necessary, ignoring other possibilities that have not been directly observed either, such as a deity or aliens.


He has a point here, but this does not disprove a conspiracy.

The conspiracy is at this point, the most probable reason that most people believe in a round earth.  If it were some other means, then we would have to ask why WE (flat earthers) are not included in this.[/quote]
Ignoring other possibilities such as deities or aliens? OK, let see:
Does relativity address deities? NO! Aliens? Likewise, NO! You can say the same for that. Maybe relativity is false.

Apply the same for every single piece of scientific knowledge out there. ďMaybe a deity made that magnet attract a paperclip! Or an alien!Ē

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2007, 07:29:57 PM »
my words are here but my meaning isn't.

Let me try again.

Zetetic method only allows for direct evidence from observation, correct?

I am not trying to disprove a conspiracy,but merely stating that one does not follow directly from observation.

you state the earth is flat offer indirect proof that something causes the general public to believe the earth is round.

you say that, because the government presents a round earth, they must be behind it.

but there is no direct evidence.  it is an assumption.  It does not necessarily follow.  I offered other possibilities that, while almost definitely wrong, are still there.  Because there is no evidence for any of these except for indirect evidence(which is not allowed in zetetic method) none of them can be accepted using zetetic method.
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2007, 10:54:31 PM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
Zetetic method only allows for direct evidence from observation, correct?

And conclusions made from it; yes.
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
I am not trying to disprove a conspiracy,but merely stating that one does not follow directly from observation.

you state the earth is flat offer indirect proof that something causes the general public to believe the earth is round.

We offer direct proof that itís flat: we observe it to be so. And obviously something has to cause the public to think itís round; otherwise they would think itís flat.
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
you say that, because the government presents a round earth, they must be behind it.

NASA has to be behind it because they have ďpicturesĒ of RE. They have to be behind it because they have ďevidenceĒ. If you lie, and construct evidence, then it looks like youíre hiding something.
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
but there is no direct evidence.  it is an assumption.  It does not necessarily follow.  I offered other possibilities that, while almost definitely wrong, are still there.  Because there is no evidence for any of these except for indirect evidence(which is not allowed in zetetic method) none of them can be accepted using zetetic method.

NASA follows. Not the whole government; I grant you that. The evidence we have that NASA is lying is that they have pictures. This does not necessarily mean that all of NASA knows, or all of the government knows. But some do, and have created this conspiracy. If you have pictures depicting falsehoods, they must have came from somewhere.

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2007, 07:56:38 AM »
again, this conclusion does not directly follow.  why can't it be gremlins messing with the equipment?  you are stating that because NASA shows images of a round earth that they must be behind it, while it could be something else changing what they see, Allowing NASA to truly believe in a round earth despite your evidence to the contrary.  

I've heard talk on these forums of governments placing special things to distort what people see in planes,  why can't this be done to the pretend satellites or the shuttle as well?

why can't somthing carry them around for a bit, causing belief of a round earth,  why would a powerful being not be cruel or have a twisted sense of humor?

there is still a leap from the evidence to NASA is behind it, which other things could fill.  But without proof, it's guesswork.
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2007, 12:33:33 PM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
again, this conclusion does not directly follow.  why can't it be gremlins messing with the equipment?  you are stating that because NASA shows images of a round earth that they must be behind it, while it could be something else changing what they see, Allowing NASA to truly believe in a round earth despite your evidence to the contrary.  

It can be gremlins, but they would need to be insiders. NASA needs some sort of interference (be it inside with knowledge or without). It could be something else they see, but that would require someone within NASA to change what they see.
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I've heard talk on these forums of governments placing special things to distort what people see in planes,  why can't this be done to the pretend satellites or the shuttle as well?[/qupte]
Sure it could. But then it would be NASA anyway.
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why can't somthing carry them around for a bit, causing belief of a round earth,  why would a powerful being not be cruel or have a twisted sense of humor?

As I stated before: they have to be in some way connected with NASA.
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there is still a leap from the evidence to NASA is behind it, which other things could fill.  But without proof, it's guesswork.

Other things could fill, but they would, again, have to be within NASA or have some sort of access to the inside.

And by the way: even if youíre right, the conspiracy still exists. I guess weíre saying that NASA is the most likely conspirator.

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007, 03:17:38 PM »
Quote from: "zaudragon"
And by the way: even if youíre right, the conspiracy still exists. I guess weíre saying that NASA is the most likely conspirator.


what proof do you have that directly shows the existance of a conspiracy?  

On other aspects of FET, zetetic method is used, but in regards to the conspiracy,  indirect evidence is used to show its very existance!

I'm saying a conspiracy may not be necessary because something could fool all of NASA, but without direct proof one way or the other, nothing can be said about any of this if you rely on zetetic method.

[/quote]
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2007, 10:50:57 PM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
Quote from: "zaudragon"
And by the way: even if youíre right, the conspiracy still exists. I guess weíre saying that NASA is the most likely conspirator.


what proof do you have that directly shows the existance of a conspiracy?  

On other aspects of FET, zetetic method is used, but in regards to the conspiracy,  indirect evidence is used to show its very existance!

I'm saying a conspiracy may not be necessary because something could fool all of NASA, but without direct proof one way or the other, nothing can be said about any of this if you rely on zetetic method.

Quote from: "New American Oxford Dictionary"
conspiracy |kənˈspirəsē| noun ( pl. -cies) a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful

That ďsomethingĒ, I think, qualifies as a group.

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2007, 10:52:09 AM »
does not have to be a group.  As I have stated earlier, could be a diety.
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2007, 11:16:45 AM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
does not have to be a group.  As I have stated earlier, could be a diety.


Deities arenít taken into account under science. We would have to find a manifestation of one, which would basically be a group (of anything: people, dogs, air molecules, etc.)

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2007, 01:27:42 PM »
not quite correct.

true, science does not take into account the possibility of a diety, but not for the reasons stated.

the chief aspect of a scientific theory is falsifyability, the possibility to be disproven.  A diety does not have that quality, can only be proven because any evidence that can be gathered against a diety can be refuted by "god made it to be that way".  Because the conspiracy, like this diety share this characteristic of not being disprovable, both must be cast aside for science to procede foward.  Science does not say that they must not exist, just that since we cannot disprove either, we cannot take them under consideration.

but that is scientific method, and I believe we were discussing zetetic method, in which, since there is no definite proof for either, both must, again, be cast aside.
quot;But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-Galileo Galilei

apply your zetetic method to the idea of a conspiracy.
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2007, 07:31:16 PM »
Quote from: "clockworkmonk"
but that is scientific method, and I believe we were discussing zetetic method, in which, since there is no definite proof for either, both must, again, be cast aside.

The Zetetic Method is just part of science. Itís just for picky people. I mean, if you really wanted to know whether the Earth was Round, you could just accompany a scientist to show you how it is.