Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]

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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« on: January 08, 2007, 12:05:30 PM »
Ok, recently two female komodo dragons have given birth with no male present at the time of conception. they called this parthenogenesis. I looked up an exact definition of the word and here is what i got.

Parthenogenesis - reproduction by development of an unfertilized usually female gamete that occurs especially among lower plants and invertebrate animals

So my question is since we are finally seeing this process reach "higher" animals in the evolutionary standpoint couldn't there be a chance it could apply to the supposed virgin birth of Jesus?

[i don't mean to offend anyone by my question but i would like to hear some insight and thoughts on this topic]
Komodo Information: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061220-virgin-dragons.html
quot;Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs." -Lily Tomlin
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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2007, 12:20:41 PM »
it has actually been seen in quite a few reptiles and amphibians, that when a populetion is in some way limited to female only then one of the females will "become" male. There are also cases, again in reptiles and amphibiaians, of self procreation, which is this parthenogensis. Both occur when there is no male presence in the population. This was not the case in Mary's time, she was, afterall, to be married. So it is safe to assume that there were males around her.


Also this has never been seen in mammals, and there are significant differences between the biology of mammals and reptiles/amphibians.

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2007, 03:21:58 PM »
they made up that story t
he kinds of equations that they have now are the kinds of equations you would get in an approximation scheme to some underlying theory, but nobody knows what the underlying theory is.

discover magazine

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Erasmus

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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2007, 11:46:58 PM »
Additionally, it is to be assumed that Jesus possessed sex-linked traits which are activated by the presence of a Y-chromosome which he could not have inherited from his mother.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 06:19:14 AM »
Quote from: "sodapop112"
they made up that story t


Hmm.. do i smell a conspiracy??

other than that thanks for replying.
quot;Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs." -Lily Tomlin
                CHILDREN OF MEN
"Death may be the greatest of all human blessings.  ~Socrates

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 08:27:28 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Additionally, it is to be assumed that Jesus possessed sex-linked traits which are activated by the presence of a Y-chromosome which he could not have inherited from his mother.


Actually, all births that are from parthenogenesis are male offspring...if you read the entire article it explains why they are born male.  Also, in recennt years they are finding it can happen in many different species and is a random occurence occasionally meaning the need to reproduce isn't always the cause.

evidence for male birth: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061220-virgin-dragons_2.html

Besides, the Y chromosome is a reccesive trait which all females carry.
quot;Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs." -Lily Tomlin
                CHILDREN OF MEN
"Death may be the greatest of all human blessings.  ~Socrates

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2007, 07:10:32 PM »
Wrong! All births are female....sorry.
 believe what I see before me.

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2007, 07:27:09 PM »
This can't explain Jesus. Sorry.

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cmdshft

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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2007, 07:34:10 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Additionally, it is to be assumed that Jesus possessed sex-linked traits which are activated by the presence of a Y-chromosome which he could not have inherited from his mother.


The only way that could possibly be ascertained as fact is by obtaining a DNA sample of Jesus. The only way (that I remember) is by obtaining the Lance of Longinus, since it may have some residue on the spear head.

But other than that, you cannot simply assume anything about what how a birth may or may not have taken place 2000 years ago.

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2007, 07:35:05 PM »
or even if it took place

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2007, 08:52:10 PM »
I heard that Mary was raped :p

At the time I'd assume denial would be the best course of action, even for a virgin, otherwise a woman who was raped would be considered a slut/whore and would never have any sort of respectibility again.

But since Mary wasn't a reptile I would have to say it's unlikely she was a virgin.

Who thought Britney Spears was a virgin?
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2007, 10:08:50 PM »
I am not a religeous fanatic, however if you regard the bible (apart from the actual teachings of Jesus) as being somewhat symbolic then perhaps Mary's virginity represented purity of spirit. I find it fascinating that Hinduism so closely corresponds to Christianity...even down to the Holy Trinity. Perhaps each culture created their own 'mythology' to represent the spiritual aspects making it more accessible to the everyday man.
 believe what I see before me.

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2007, 03:08:41 PM »
Quote from: "weevil"
I am not a religeous fanatic, however if you regard the bible (apart from the actual teachings of Jesus) as being somewhat symbolic then perhaps Mary's virginity represented purity of spirit. I find it fascinating that Hinduism so closely corresponds to Christianity...even down to the Holy Trinity. Perhaps each culture created their own 'mythology' to represent the spiritual aspects making it more accessible to the everyday man.


You do know that the Bible has just as much of a chance of being a history book on war as it does being "holy scriptures". It's a version of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" for dummies.

It's full of war and battles. Generals use it to inspire military maneuvers. It is a major reason why we won WWII (not because alot of people prayed to it, but because generals who read it realized it had an impressive number of strategic information regarding warfare).

You have to consider psycology. The mentality at the time was still rather barbaric. Women were worthless pieces of crap, God was everywhere, witches were the cause of all bad luck, and people were gullible and dumb. We havn't progressed much since then, but our understanding of what is bad luck and what is witchcraft has evolved a bit at least :p
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2007, 03:21:34 PM »
Quote from: "Shinobi Mono"
couldn't there be a chance it could apply to the supposed virgin birth of Jesus?


Quote from: "Scientist"
This can't explain Jesus. Sorry.


Quote from: "weevil"
perhaps Mary's virginity represented purity of spirit


Quote from: "Sam Harris"
Wouldn't it have been within the power of any mortal to write a book that confirms the predictions of a previous book?  In fact, we know on the basis of textual evidence that this is what the Gospel writers did.  The writers of Luke and Matthew, for instance, declare that Mary conceived as a virgin, relying upon the Greek rendering of Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrew text of Isaiah uses the word 'alma, however, which simply means "young woman," without any implication of virginity.  It seems all but certain that the dogma of the virgin birth, and much of the Christian world's resulting anxiety about sex, was a product of a mistranslation from the Hebrew.  Another strike against the doctrine of the virgin birth is that the other evangelists have not heard of it.  Mark and John both appear uncomfortable with accusations of Jesus' illegitimacy, but never mention the miraculous origins.  Paul refers to Jesus as being "born of the seed of David according to the flesh" and "born of woman," without referring to Mary's virginity at all.


That was from Letter to a Christian Nation (pp. 57-58).
ooyakasha!

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2007, 03:00:07 AM »
not possible for most mammals or us. reptile gender is not determined genetically. mammal gender is (except monotremes?) so no conception can occur without the crucial final X or Y chromosome from sperm. if it ever did happen (there are probably other reasons why it cant) the offspring would either be sterile or female since you cant obtain a Y from a woman. and jesus was a bloke.

its all bollocks and all probably due to a mistranslation of "young woman" to "virgin" or something. look at "maid" and "maiden" to see how easy this is. (cheers Dawkins)
tf?

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Masterchef

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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2007, 05:16:10 AM »
To be honest, I seriously doubt that Mary was a virgin. I think she just cheated on her husband.

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midgard

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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2007, 05:42:17 AM »
Quote from: "King James Bible"
LUKE 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


There you go, even in the crap version of the Bible it admits that god and mary did the dirty (therefore she wasn't a virgin and also cheated on Joseph) and that the "holy ghost" is just a fancy way of saying god's spunk.

Of course I'm more interested as to whether this could be considered rape - Mary didn't really have a choice and she even objected somewhat. god's homie Gabriel didn't want to hear that and told her that it was gonna happen because nothing's beyond god's reach.

I can just see god's defence now, "I did not have immaculate conceptions with that woman..."

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2007, 03:06:48 PM »
Quote from: "Wolfwood"
Quote from: "weevil"
I am not a religeous fanatic, however if you regard the bible (apart from the actual teachings of Jesus) as being somewhat symbolic then perhaps Mary's virginity represented purity of spirit. I find it fascinating that Hinduism so closely corresponds to Christianity...even down to the Holy Trinity. Perhaps each culture created their own 'mythology' to represent the spiritual aspects making it more accessible to the everyday man.


You do know that the Bible has just as much of a chance of being a history book on war as it does being "holy scriptures". It's a version of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" for dummies.

It's full of war and battles. Generals use it to inspire military maneuvers. It is a major reason why we won WWII (not because alot of people prayed to it, but because generals who read it realized it had an impressive number of strategic information regarding warfare).


You have to consider psycology. The mentality at the time was still rather barbaric. Women were worthless pieces of crap, God was everywhere, witches were the cause of all bad luck, and people were gullible and dumb. We havn't progressed much since then, but our understanding of what is bad luck and what is witchcraft has evolved a bit at least :p


I've gotta say thats balls. Germany was a christian nation as well they'd have read the same scriptures and got the same advantages. In fact, Germany was a more strongly christian nation than britain at the time.
While i wont dispute that the bible has a lo of war in it, i would dispute that it has teachings on the CONDUCT of war.
ALso, wars after 1914 were completely different from every war before hand, there is very little way that the bible could contain useful teachings about how to conduct trench warfare.
ny Conspiricy without a secret society more than 1000 years old isn't worth thinking about

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midgard

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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2007, 02:51:51 AM »
Quote from: "Oliwoli"
I've gotta say thats balls. Germany was a christian nation as well they'd have read the same scriptures and got the same advantages. In fact, Germany was a more strongly christian nation than britain at the time.
While i wont dispute that the bible has a lo of war in it, i would dispute that it has teachings on the CONDUCT of war.
ALso, wars after 1914 were completely different from every war before hand, there is very little way that the bible could contain useful teachings about how to conduct trench warfare.


I just have to clarify...

Do you think WWII was as static as the trench warfare of WWI?

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2007, 02:05:52 AM »
Quote from: "Oliwoli"
Quote from: "Wolfwood"
Quote from: "weevil"
I am not a religeous fanatic, however if you regard the bible (apart from the actual teachings of Jesus) as being somewhat symbolic then perhaps Mary's virginity represented purity of spirit. I find it fascinating that Hinduism so closely corresponds to Christianity...even down to the Holy Trinity. Perhaps each culture created their own 'mythology' to represent the spiritual aspects making it more accessible to the everyday man.


You do know that the Bible has just as much of a chance of being a history book on war as it does being "holy scriptures". It's a version of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" for dummies.

It's full of war and battles. Generals use it to inspire military maneuvers. It is a major reason why we won WWII (not because alot of people prayed to it, but because generals who read it realized it had an impressive number of strategic information regarding warfare).


You have to consider psycology. The mentality at the time was still rather barbaric. Women were worthless pieces of crap, God was everywhere, witches were the cause of all bad luck, and people were gullible and dumb. We havn't progressed much since then, but our understanding of what is bad luck and what is witchcraft has evolved a bit at least :p


I've gotta say thats balls. Germany was a christian nation as well they'd have read the same scriptures and got the same advantages. In fact, Germany was a more strongly christian nation than britain at the time.
While i wont dispute that the bible has a lo of war in it, i would dispute that it has teachings on the CONDUCT of war.
ALso, wars after 1914 were completely different from every war before hand, there is very little way that the bible could contain useful teachings about how to conduct trench warfare.


Ok look at how WWII was going before America was invited by the Japanese. Europe was getting it's ass beaten to the ground. Even alot of German officers and generals got maneuvers and battle plans from the Bible.

In the end the only thing that really beat the snot out of Germany was numbers, had America not joined the fight we would likely be typing in German by now.

*NOTE* I am not saying Europe should kiss our ass and say "oh thank you America!". I'm just saying America added it's pool of fodder to the pool going against Germany and 4 > 2.

And generals got ideas out of the bible that helped in TANK warfare. Trench Warfare isn't something a general takes part in. It is nothing more then a stage of the battle. The obvious strategy is to somehow assault the enemy position WITHOUT dieing. Generals do the planning before a battle, not many of them actually take part in open conflict and you would NEVER see a General in trench lines, just officers.
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2007, 02:08:21 AM »
Quote from: "midgard"
Quote from: "King James Bible"
LUKE 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


There you go, even in the crap version of the Bible it admits that god and mary did the dirty (therefore she wasn't a virgin and also cheated on Joseph) and that the "holy ghost" is just a fancy way of saying god's spunk.

Of course I'm more interested as to whether this could be considered rape - Mary didn't really have a choice and she even objected somewhat. god's homie Gabriel didn't want to hear that and told her that it was gonna happen because nothing's beyond god's reach.

I can just see god's defence now, "I did not have immaculate conceptions with that woman..."


She was raped by a Roman soldier named Gabriel and once Jesus found out he got pissed and raised a rebellion and Rome said "nope" and somehow the bible made it all into a religious load of crap to hold together the Jesus Regime...
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2007, 07:46:53 AM »
Applying the Parthenogenesis of a reptile to the supposed "virgin birth of jesus" is by far one of the worst misunderstandings of science and the natural world that I've seen.

While not common, it is possible for some species of reptiles and amphibians to give live birth without being fertilized by a male in extreme situations. Calling it a "virgin birth" is misleading as it purposely takes back to the whole myth about the virgin birth of jesus.

If such a thing did happen with a human(which it cannot), don't you think in 2000 years we would of seen at least 1 instance of it repeating?

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Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2007, 07:27:14 AM »
DELETED

Parthenogenesis [Virgin Birth]
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2007, 07:57:36 AM »
I blame metichlorines.
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one