Proof of the Earth's curve

  • 34 Replies
  • 6842 Views
Proof of the Earth's curve
« on: March 16, 2018, 04:29:45 PM »
If the Earth is flat, how is it that airplanes never fly in a straight line, wouldn't it be easier for them to reach their destination, if they fly straight in the middle? They always seem to make curves in the sky...

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 07:44:54 PM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 10:55:29 PM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
It's so easy for flat earthers always have the easy escape of there being no "accurate FE map" on which to draw "these flight paths".

There is not need at all for any "accurate FE map" as many of the distance between the Globe and the flat earth differ by a factor of two or more!

So, no "accurate FE map" seems such a weak excuse considering that are flights over almost of the earth that use the Globe as the shape of the earth.
These flights follow routes planned, fly in the directions determined and for the distances predicted by these maps based on the Globe.

Please provide any flat-earth map that comes close to satisfying all of these.

In addition, one thing that makes this map question so ridiculous, is that as soon as the South Pole is mentioned there are outcries of being unable to go there because of: take your pick: the ice-wall, storm-troopers, ;D killer penguins ;D or whatever.

Whatever, you and others say, most flat-earthers seem to insist that the "ice-wall map" represents the basic layout of the flat-earth.
Once that is accepted, there is little option other than a continental layout close to:
Sure, you might fiddle some details and vary the distances a little, but there is no way that within the constraints of a continental layout with the North Pole at the centre and Antarctica around the outside, as described in "the FAQ" for much variation:
Quote
What does the map of the Earth look like then?
As evidenced by the logo of the United Nations the Earth is a round disk of indefinite dimensions. The geographic North Pole is located in the center of the disk, and the Antarctic lies around the outer edges.
This excuse of "There is no accurate FE map" is nothing more than claiming ignorance as a viable defence.
And please don't suggest DET of the Bipolar map. Apart from all the other objection, no flat-earth sympathiser except you, Tom Bishop and Sandokhan (bipolar) and JRowe (DET) seem to take them seriously.

So, what real choice is there other than something close to the Ice Wall map?

Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2018, 02:48:53 AM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?

That's an oxymoron if there was one. An accurate FE map.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 05:39:45 AM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?

That's an oxymoron if there was one. An accurate FE map.
I agree, but can you prove that an accurate FE map showing the correct distances is actually impossible - prove that and you will prove your worth.
Of course, the flat-earthers will deny that we know the accurate distances - as if the earth wasn't being surveyed from say Al Biruni's[1] time on by navigators and dedicated surveyors.

[1] Al Biruni, or Abū Rayḥān Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad Al-Bīrūnī of Persia (4 September 973 – 9 December 1048) "made contributions to Earth sciences,
     and is regarded as the "father of geodesy" for his important contributions to that field, along with his significant contributions to geography."

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2018, 06:02:07 AM »
This excuse of "There is no accurate FE map" is nothing more than claiming ignorance as a viable defence.
And please don't suggest DET of the Bipolar map. Apart from all the other objection, no flat-earth sympathiser except you, Tom Bishop and Sandokhan (bipolar) and JRowe (DET) seem to take them seriously.

So, what real choice is there other than something close to the Ice Wall map?
Great, but I would point out that you needed to change the argument to distances as opposed to great circle paths in order to justify that claim.
And again, not an FE sympathizer, I just happen to prefer it when people make good arguments. Ignoring bipolar and non-Euclidean maps because this one argument doesn't happen to work on them is just silly. Not every argument is going to work on every FE model, that's not a weakness of the arguments, it's basic logic. Sure, fewer people accept them, but it's pretty few people that accept FET at all an dyet you have no problem dedicatig so much time to arguing against them, you clearly don't care about numbers.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 12:52:47 PM »
This excuse of "There is no accurate FE map" is nothing more than claiming ignorance as a viable defence.
And please don't suggest DET of the Bipolar map. Apart from all the other objection, no flat-earth sympathiser except you, Tom Bishop and Sandokhan (bipolar) and JRowe (DET) seem to take them seriously.

So, what real choice is there other than something close to the Ice Wall map?
Great, but I would point out that you needed to change the argument to distances as opposed to great circle paths in order to justify that claim.
And again, not an FE sympathizer, I just happen to prefer it when people make good arguments. Ignoring bipolar and non-Euclidean maps because this one argument doesn't happen to work on them is just silly. Not every argument is going to work on every FE model, that's not a weakness of the arguments, it's basic logic. Sure, fewer people accept them, but it's pretty few people that accept FET at all an dyet you have no problem dedicatig so much time to arguing against them, you clearly don't care about numbers.

You like it when people use good arguments! So you do have a sense of humour!
Well regarding the earth’s lovely curves there are lots of great images that show that very thing. What more do you need?

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 12:56:02 PM »
You like it when people use good arguments! So you do have a sense of humour!
Well regarding the earth’s lovely curves there are lots of great images that show that very thing. What more do you need?
It'd be great if you could defend an argument without completely changing the subject one of these days. That generally means you've failed to make the initial point.
As far as what more I need, try actually providing an image from a source FEers will accept, that depicts a clear amount of curvature with no form of distortion, and do it in a different thread because that has no bearing on the argument the OP was making.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

JackBlack

  • 21550
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 02:08:54 PM »
Ignoring bipolar and non-Euclidean maps because this one argument doesn't happen to work on them is just silly.
No, acting like the argument doesn't work on them is silly.
Bipolar maps just push the problem around, just like south pole centred ones.
non-Euclidean maps are just the globe in disguise.

As far as what more I need, try actually providing an image from a source FEers will accept, that depicts a clear amount of curvature with no form of distortion
Well that would be impossible as for FEers to accept it it can't show a curve.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2018, 07:51:47 PM »
This excuse of "There is no accurate FE map" is nothing more than claiming ignorance as a viable defence.
And please don't suggest DET of the Bipolar map. Apart from all the other objection, no flat-earth sympathiser except you, Tom Bishop and Sandokhan (bipolar) and JRowe (DET) seem to take them seriously.

So, what real choice is there other than something close to the Ice Wall map?
Great, but I would point out that you needed to change the argument to distances as opposed to great circle paths in order to justify that claim.
No, I do not! I don't believe that I mentioned "great circle paths", that was raised by you.
Even brotherhood of the dome, as flat as they come accepts that reasonably accurate flight distances can be estimated from flight times, especially if both directions are averaged. Of course, he ignores routes that won't fit his preconceived notions.

So we know with reasonable accuracy the distances that aircraft actually fly. Those distances "happen" to be close to great circles on the Globe.

And, as I stated earlier, reasonable accuracy is all we need as
     on the "Ice Wall" map the FE distance for Sydney to Santiago is more than twice the distance flown and
     on the "Bipolar" map it is more 50% over distance flown.
In addition, on the real world, that flight
      leaves Sydney flying SE,
      on the "Ice Wall" map its initial heading would have to be NE and it would fly over the USA but
      on the "Bipolar" map its initial heading would have to be  SW, flying between South Africa and Antarctica.

Not only that, but on the "Bipolar" map these errors are also on the busier Japan to/from USA to/from Europe routes as well.

And some common routes are totally impossible on the "Bipolar" map.
The shortest route from Brisbane, Australia to Vancouver, Canada is definitely across the Pacific Ocean, not across Africa!
My son works for Microsoft in Seattle and flies that route quite often.

That "Bipolar" map is totally ridiculous as a continental layout of the earth.

But, if John-come-lately or DavidOrJohn can either find a FE map that fits all known routes are alternately proves no such map is possibly,  he'll have certainly earned his "keep".

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 08:00:53 PM »
No, I do not! I don't believe that I mentioned "great circle paths", that was raised by you.
Well, yes, I was talking to the OP; the discussion you butted in on to claim my answer was not good enough. Forgive me for thinking you were staying on topic.

Quote
And, as I stated earlier, reasonable accuracy is all we need as
     on the "Ice Wall" map the FE distance for Sydney to Santiago is more than twice the distance flown and
     on the "Bipolar" map it is more 50% over distance flown.
I mean, that's easy to fix. Just rearrange the continents; you're objecting to one specific layout of the ice wall/bipolar models, but phrasing that as though it disproves all possible layouts. Shift the orientations on the ice wall model so that Australia's closer to the US; maybe that ruins Sydney to London or whatever, but maybe there's an orientation to adjust and fix that too...
It is not nearly as simple as you are making it out to be. Sure, maybe you can prove no set-up works, but if that's the case you still need to actually do so.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2018, 08:16:24 PM »
This excuse of "There is no accurate FE map" is nothing more than claiming ignorance as a viable defence.
And please don't suggest DET of the Bipolar map. Apart from all the other objection, no flat-earth sympathiser except you, Tom Bishop and Sandokhan (bipolar) and JRowe (DET) seem to take them seriously.

So, what real choice is there other than something close to the Ice Wall map?
Great, but I would point out that you needed to change the argument to distances as opposed to great circle paths in order to justify that claim.
No, I do not! I don't believe that I mentioned "great circle paths", that was raised by you.
Even brotherhood of the dome, as flat as they come accepts that reasonably accurate flight distances can be estimated from flight times, especially if both directions are averaged. Of course, he ignores routes that won't fit his preconceived notions.

So we know with reasonable accuracy the distances that aircraft actually fly. Those distances "happen" to be close to great circles on the Globe.

And, as I stated earlier, reasonable accuracy is all we need as
     on the "Ice Wall" map the FE distance for Sydney to Santiago is more than twice the distance flown and
     on the "Bipolar" map it is more 50% over distance flown.
In addition, on the real world, that flight
      leaves Sydney flying SE,
      on the "Ice Wall" map its initial heading would have to be NE and it would fly over the USA but
      on the "Bipolar" map its initial heading would have to be  SW, flying between South Africa and Antarctica.

Not only that, but on the "Bipolar" map these errors are also on the busier Japan to/from USA to/from Europe routes as well.

And some common routes are totally impossible on the "Bipolar" map.
The shortest route from Brisbane, Australia to Vancouver, Canada is definitely across the Pacific Ocean, not across Africa!
My son works for Microsoft in Seattle and flies that route quite often.

That "Bipolar" map is totally ridiculous as a continental layout of the earth.

But, if John-come-lately or DavidOrJohn can either find a FE map that fits all known routes are alternately proves no such map is possibly,  he'll have certainly earned his "keep".

I'm not sure about the other poster mentioned but I don't believe there is an FET map that fits the known routes.

If that's your limiting criteria though it can be proved through exhaustion.

*

JackBlack

  • 21550
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2018, 08:41:29 PM »
I mean, that's easy to fix. Just rearrange the continents
No it isn't.
All that does is shift the problem around, it doesn't fix anything.

It is not nearly as simple as you are making it out to be. Sure, maybe you can prove no set-up works, but if that's the case you still need to actually do so.
No, it is not nearly as complex as you are making it out to be.
We can easily use the NP AEP due to the ability to circumnavigate the pole, the midnight sun, and the apparent position of the sun in the sky and time zones.
But then distances fail.
A similar argument can be made to support a SP AEP, but that just shifts the problem to the north.

To put it simply, we know the equator is a circle roughly 40 000 km long.
We know that as you move further north or further south, the distance required to go one degree of longitude decreases.
This is physically impossible with a flat Earth.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2018, 09:19:28 PM »
I'm not sure about the other poster mentioned but I don't believe there is an FET map that fits the known routes.
Again, I agree.

Quote from: DavidOrJohn
If that's your limiting criteria though it can be proved through exhaustion.
But how do you enumerate all possible flat earth maps.
Is there a reasonably small set of locations with well verified distances that can be proven impossible to fit on a flat surface?

I think it is obvious that four or more points from the surface of a sphere can easily be found that cannot be co-planar.

What makes convincing flat earthers impossible is that most will not accept these distances.
Calculating distances from lat/long on a sphere or or ellipsoid is not that hard, but getting FEers to accept those distances is the hard part.

Getting FEers to accept that the pole to equator distances are very close to 10,000 km each is not that hard, it fits their common map!
But, them getting to really accept that the circumference of the equator is close to 40,000 km (actually 40,075 km) is another matter.

Hope you have better luck than we have had, though maybe some "newbies" have learnt something.

Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2018, 03:02:54 AM »
What I ment is that airplanes make curves UP in the sky, not around it. Anyway, i'm jumping ahead of myself (not flying because obviously gravity doesn't exist for you), i should've pointed that out in the beginning.

Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2018, 03:21:08 AM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
Santiago - Sydney is a good example. 13 hour flight. Impossible on Flat.

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 05:17:02 AM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
Santiago - Sydney is a good example. 13 hour flight. Impossible on Flat.
Have you proven that for every possible FE map?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Cahaya

  • 420
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 05:39:18 AM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
Santiago - Sydney is a good example. 13 hour flight. Impossible on Flat.
Have you proven that for every possible FE map?

It is easy enough to create an FE map on which it is entirely possible. However that map would disagree with FE doctrine on many other points, and as such would presumably be unacceptable to the majority of FE believers

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 05:43:30 AM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
Santiago - Sydney is a good example. 13 hour flight. Impossible on Flat.
Have you proven that for every possible FE map?
Like it or not most FEers effectively insist that the South Pole does not exist, and so implicitly presume the Ice-Ring model.

It is not up to us the come up with a flat earth map that works, that is the task of flat-earthers.

So since you seem to be the only flat earth supporter here, have you shown one flat earth map on which it is possible?

Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 06:29:45 AM »
Santiago - Sydney is a good example. 13 hour flight. Impossible on Flat.
Have you proven that for every possible FE map?
Yes.
It's impossible to preserve all distances from globe on flat surface.
On globe distances near poles are short.
On flat surface one of the poles must be extended to a circle with big distances.
And it doesn't matter which points on globe are the 'poles' - you may select any point on globe and an opposite - you encounter the same geometrical problem.

Maybe on some FE map Santiago-Sydney would be OK, but then some other flights will not be.


Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 10:34:12 AM »
I'm not sure about the other poster mentioned but I don't believe there is an FET map that fits the known routes.
Again, I agree.

Quote from: DavidOrJohn
If that's your limiting criteria though it can be proved through exhaustion.
But how do you enumerate all possible flat earth maps.
Is there a reasonably small set of locations with well verified distances that can be proven impossible to fit on a flat surface?

I think it is obvious that four or more points from the surface of a sphere can easily be found that cannot be co-planar.

What makes convincing flat earthers impossible is that most will not accept these distances.
Calculating distances from lat/long on a sphere or or ellipsoid is not that hard, but getting FEers to accept those distances is the hard part.

Getting FEers to accept that the pole to equator distances are very close to 10,000 km each is not that hard, it fits their common map!
But, them getting to really accept that the circumference of the equator is close to 40,000 km (actually 40,075 km) is another matter.

Hope you have better luck than we have had, though maybe some "newbies" have learnt something.

How many flat earth maps even exist? For most of them you would just need any southern hemisphere flight to disprove it.

For the bipolar models you would need to show the radius of the "disk" is not consistent with the circumference.

But last time I had a great circle debate all I got was refutations based on how the distance is measured.

*

JackBlack

  • 21550
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2018, 01:23:38 PM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
Santiago - Sydney is a good example. 13 hour flight. Impossible on Flat.
Have you proven that for every possible FE map?

All the different maps do is push the problem around.

*

Bullwinkle

  • The Elder Ones
  • 21053
  • Standard Idiot
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2018, 01:27:00 AM »
Do you have an accurate FE map that you have drawn these flight paths on?
Santiago - Sydney is a good example. 13 hour flight. Impossible on Flat.
Have you proven that for every possible FE map?

All the different maps do is push the problem around.

All the flat maps work fine when you add black map matter.
You just need to wait until it is found.


*

wise

  • Professor
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25431
  • The Only Yang Scholar in The Ying Universe
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2018, 12:40:24 AM »
If the Earth is flat, how is it that airplanes never fly in a straight line, wouldn't it be easier for them to reach their destination, if they fly straight in the middle? They always seem to make curves in the sky...

Aircrafts are using GPS leads them a wrong path. If it use a straight path, but you can't observe it because GPS shows a different path. There is no sky and nothing observed from there.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

*

Cahaya

  • 420
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2018, 01:21:07 AM »
If the Earth is flat, how is it that airplanes never fly in a straight line, wouldn't it be easier for them to reach their destination, if they fly straight in the middle? They always seem to make curves in the sky...

Aircrafts are using GPS leads them a wrong path. If it use a straight path, but you can't observe it because GPS shows a different path. There is no sky and nothing observed from there.

Aircraft don't use GPS as a primary source, it is used to update an inertial platform and that is the primary source. GPS isn't used as the primary source as it can be turned off, or a deliberate error introduced. Aircraft navigated oceans long before GPS. The Boeing 747 used an inertial reference platform, updated by ground based radio beacons when within range until the end of the last century. Nowadays an airline pilot will check the usability of GPS signals before each duty, RAIM (receiver autonomous integrity monitoring) data is produced for every flight plan.

Example

GPS RAIM PREDICTION FOR THE DAY 02/04/2018
  AD WISE DURATION OF NON AVAILABILITY
  OF RAIM FD AND FDE
  FUNCTIONALITY FOR VECC/VEGT
  FAULT DETECTION OUTAGES      -NIL
  FAULT DETECTION EXCLUSION OUTAGE    -NIL

*

wise

  • Professor
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25431
  • The Only Yang Scholar in The Ying Universe
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2018, 03:25:43 AM »
Cahaya is a ISIS/Al qaeda/FETÖ /PKK / Klu Klux Klan member that in the ignore list. So that I don't see/ care his rubbish so called posts.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

*

Cahaya

  • 420
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 03:49:56 AM »
Cahaya is a ISIS/Al qaeda/FETÖ /PKK / Klu Klux Klan member that in the ignore list. So that I don't see/ care his rubbish so called posts.

BOTD hates it that I know more than him

Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2018, 03:01:29 PM »
Cahaya is a ISIS/Al qaeda/FETÖ /PKK / Klu Klux Klan member that in the ignore list. So that I don't see/ care his rubbish so called posts.

BOTD hates it that I know more than him

Amazing coincidence that every time Brotherhood of the Dumb repeats his assertion you are on his ignore list is the post immediately after yours.

*

EvolvedMantisShrimp

  • 928
  • Physical Comedian
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2018, 04:58:14 PM »
Nullius in Verba

*

Macarios

  • 2093
Re: Proof of the Earth's curve
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2018, 07:00:18 PM »
That was fish-eye lens. Look at that airplane how curved it is. :)
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.