Emotion

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Re: Emotion
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2018, 03:55:14 PM »
Some Flat Earthers "correctly discovered" that the main requirement for building
people's belief is to discredit knowledge and disconnect people from it.

"What you know is incorrect, I will tell you what to 'know'."

And when they say "question everything" they don't want you to question flat model.
Only globe.
All the less for those flatists. To me, its clear we know nothing, and that in doing so we both came to different conclusions on the shape of the earth.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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JackBlack

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Re: Emotion
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2018, 05:16:51 PM »
An incorrect model can describe something in a useful way and still be incorrect. For example, I can model human behavior off assuming there are 8 archetypes of man, and each one acts differently. This would be patently incorrect, and yet it is able to provide useful results sometimes.
Just like a stopped clock is right twice a day.
But that is purely by chance.
It would need to have some degree of truth for it to produce correct results other than by chance.
So either they are correct some of the time, or the results they produce are fluke.

You might be correct if you could back that up with historical example. As for mine, I have provided it - heliocentrism was introduced without solving problems and with introducing more. The fact FE exists shows that it is useful to some, and thus is solving some problem.
I don't need a historical example. I provided it purely based upon logic.

If you have models A and B and both suffer from a problem, then according to your reasoning, this problem is grounds to reject A and instead believe B, but equally valid would be rejecting B and accepting A.
This would lead you to reject both and accept both, an impossibility.

You have failed to provide any historical example of your own claim.
Heliocentricity provided explanatory power. It provided an explanation.
With a geocentric model, all the planets except Earth orbit the sun, with the sun then orbiting Earth.
This made no sense at all.
During their orbits, the planets would get closer to Earth than the sun.
If the Earth is capable of having the sun orbit it, why wouldn't the other planets also orbit Earth?

The Heliocentric model solved that by having all the planets orbit the sun. Now the sun is the most significant body (in the solar system), with all the planets orbiting it.
The geocentric model also has the problem of the path of the sun being so chaotic. Moving up and down in a crazy helix.
The heliocentric model explained that by having Earth rotate on an axis which was not parallel to the axis of the orbit.
This results in the sun appearing to trace circles in the sky with the axis of the circle parallel to Earth's rotational axis, with the orbital motion causing a variation in the apparent position of the circle the sun traces.

What additional problems did it introduce?

I have shown it by defining it as such.
So you have shown nothing.
You have simply asserted it.

Simply saying "the earth is flat and space is curved" is enough for any reasonable person to be able to understand what I'm getting at here.
Yes, that you are pathetically grasping at whatever straws you can to pretend Earth is flat; that you know it is round, but are still going to pretend it is flat.

And what do you mean by factually correct? You just replaced one word with a synonym. How would you determine factual correctness other than by measuring its usefulness?
This now comes down to how words are defined in English. How would you define a word to someone who has no idea what any words mean?
i would determine it based upon how much it matches reality, i.e. how correct it is.

Just because we find false things useful at times, especially when we purposefully construct them knowing they are false, does not necessitate that we don't believe things because they are useful.
Yes it does.
It shows that merely being useful is not enough to believe something.
We don't believe things because they are useful, there are other conditions which rational people use.

What is your rational basis for using induction?
Who says I am only using induction? Inductive reasoning is not the only form of rational reasoning and thus not the only way to present rational arguments.

To state my point differently, why would I need to show how FE solves the problem if it provides a path to a potential Kuhnian revolution?
But that wasn't what you were claiming before.
You were claiming you believe FE because of the problems of a RE.
That is not a valid reason to believe FE.
I have already explained why and you just continually ignore it.
How about you try and explain why you think RE having problems is enough to jump to FE, without FE solving those problems?

Perhaps you should also read up on what the revolution requires.
It isn't simply someone coming up with some stupid idea or reviving a dead one just because there is a problem with an existing idea.
The revolution is due to an idea being able to solve a major problem.
They also typically build upon previous ones.

For example, Einstein's relativity built upon two major parts of science.
The speed of light is constant regardless of your reference frame.
The speed of an object C, thrown by B at a velocity of vcb relative to B, when viewed by an outside observer A, with B travelling at a velocity of vba, would appear to travel at a velocity of vca=vcb+vba, relative to A.
These two statements both had experimental verification, but the latter only had experiment verification for relatively low velocities.
However the two statements resulted in a contradiction which results in a major problem.

Einstein didn't simply say, this is wrong, so this other model must be correct.
Instead, his relatively claimed that in reality vca=(vcb+vba)/(1+vcb*vba/c^2), thus when vcb and vba are much less than c, then vcb*vba<<c^2, and thus 1+vcb*vba/c^2~=1 and thus for low speeds, the old formula provides a very good approximation.
Meanwhile, if vcb=c, then you get:
vca=(c+vba)/(1+c*vba/c^2)=(c+vba)/(1+vba/c)=c*(c+vba)/(c*(1+vba/c))=c*(c+vba)/(c+vba)=c.
Which matches the observation that light always travels at the same speed.

So this revolution was because of Einstein's relativity being able to solve this contradiction.
The other key part is that it builds upon prior science, rather than discarding it.

So until you can show how FE solves a problem, it is not a valid reason to reject RE and replace it with FE.
You want to just discard all science and assert FE with no justification at all.


As far as risk analysis goes, its essentially Pascal's Wager all over again.
Sure, if you mean that it has been asserted by you in horribly flawed way which blatantly misrepresents the reality of the situation and a more rational, honest analysis would lead to the opposite conclusion, that based upon how well RE is at predicting reality and how bad FE models are, the risk analysis would indicate one should accept RE, not FE.

By assuming we know anything.
And have you proven we don't know anything?
Do you know we don't know anything?
No.

So how can you say I have failed? How can you know I have failed?
Or are you just baselessly asserting crap again?

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Re: Emotion
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2018, 08:59:39 PM »
An incorrect model can describe something in a useful way and still be incorrect. For example, I can model human behavior off assuming there are 8 archetypes of man, and each one acts differently. This would be patently incorrect, and yet it is able to provide useful results sometimes.
Just like a stopped clock is right twice a day.
But that is purely by chance.
It would need to have some degree of truth for it to produce correct results other than by chance.
So either they are correct some of the time, or the results they produce are fluke.
Its not purely by chance. Like your example earlier, we made a true enough false model that was useful.
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You might be correct if you could back that up with historical example. As for mine, I have provided it - heliocentrism was introduced without solving problems and with introducing more. The fact FE exists shows that it is useful to some, and thus is solving some problem.
I don't need a historical example. I provided it purely based upon logic.
It sounds like you base a lot on empiricism. Isn't empiricism centered around soon to be historical example?
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If you have models A and B and both suffer from a problem, then according to your reasoning, this problem is grounds to reject A and instead believe B, but equally valid would be rejecting B and accepting A.
This would lead you to reject both and accept both, an impossibility.
Perhaps if you could do so simultaneously.  Let me put it this way. You have a well walked model, that we all admit isn't 'true'; a far less walked path that might show promise. It certainly shows use. To me - its the less walked path. Your implementation may vary.
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You have failed to provide any historical example of your own claim.
Heliocentricity provided explanatory power. It provided an explanation.
Its empirical basis was not yet provided by the Optical theory that came later. Likewise, it failed to predict many things the epicycle and other models could. It was also patently wrong at times, and failed to tell the tides of a day; it had yet to have any real empirical basis until it was studied and tested. Of course this is the way it would have to be.
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With a geocentric model, all the planets except Earth orbit the sun, with the sun then orbiting Earth.
This made no sense at all.
Only because modern man has the idea in his head that he is not special. This is not rational at all.
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During their orbits, the planets would get closer to Earth than the sun.
Could this not be realized through differing epicycle circles? Yes. They both share a sliver of the same solution space. Even retrograde; ignoring our Vulcan friends.
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If the Earth is capable of having the sun orbit it, why wouldn't the other planets also orbit Earth?
Sounds like a poor reach at induction. If my pipe smokes, why doesn't my armchair?
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The Heliocentric model solved that by having all the planets orbit the sun. Now the sun is the most significant body (in the solar system), with all the planets orbiting it.
Yes, it was one solution.
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The geocentric model also has the problem of the path of the sun being so chaotic. Moving up and down in a crazy helix.
A helix isn't chaotic.
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The heliocentric model explained that by having Earth rotate on an axis which was not parallel to the axis of the orbit.
Yes, it was an alternate explanation. Again, it failed on so many other counts, how could we take it seriously? It would be like saying the earth is flat or something. Any person near a large body of water knows the number of tides in a day.
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This results in the sun appearing to trace circles in the sky with the axis of the circle parallel to Earth's rotational axis, with the orbital motion causing a variation in the apparent position of the circle the sun traces.

What additional problems did it introduce?
Tides. Unverified empirical evidence due to lack of a theory to support it, namely from Galileo. As Einstein put it, Galileo's was a work intended to explain, not to be accurate.
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I have shown it by defining it as such.
So you have shown nothing.
You have simply asserted it.
Then we are on equal ground.
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Simply saying "the earth is flat and space is curved" is enough for any reasonable person to be able to understand what I'm getting at here.
Yes, that you are pathetically grasping at whatever straws you can to pretend Earth is flat; that you know it is round, but are still going to pretend it is flat.
If you say so.
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And what do you mean by factually correct? You just replaced one word with a synonym. How would you determine factual correctness other than by measuring its usefulness?
This now comes down to how words are defined in English. How would you define a word to someone who has no idea what any words mean?
i would determine it based upon how much it matches reality, i.e. how correct it is.
It comes down to no such thing. I am not arguing about definition here. How would you determine how much it matches reality? Aside from seeing its use? By it giving us "knowledge"? And the only metric we have to measure said knowledge is by using it.

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Just because we find false things useful at times, especially when we purposefully construct them knowing they are false, does not necessitate that we don't believe things because they are useful.
Yes it does.
It shows that merely being useful is not enough to believe something.
We don't believe things because they are useful, there are other conditions which rational people use.
Obviously.
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What is your rational basis for using induction?
Who says I am only using induction? Inductive reasoning is not the only form of rational reasoning and thus not the only way to present rational arguments.
You would still have to justify using induction, or reject it. Well, I guess unless its useful...
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To state my point differently, why would I need to show how FE solves the problem if it provides a path to a potential Kuhnian revolution?
But that wasn't what you were claiming before.
You were claiming you believe FE because of the problems of a RE.
That is not a valid reason to believe FE.
I have already explained why and you just continually ignore it.
How about you try and explain why you think RE having problems is enough to jump to FE, without FE solving those problems?
Because we have seen, above, this is not a prerequisite.
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Perhaps you should also read up on what the revolution requires.
It isn't simply someone coming up with some stupid idea or reviving a dead one just because there is a problem with an existing idea.
The revolution is due to an idea being able to solve a major problem.
They also typically build upon previous ones.
As I hope would be obvious, I weigh more with Feyerabend's side of the story than Kuhn's.
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For example, Einstein's relativity built upon two major parts of science.
Nope. It built off a dream he had, about how geometry was bollocks.
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The speed of light is constant regardless of your reference frame.
The speed of an object C, thrown by B at a velocity of vcb relative to B, when viewed by an outside observer A, with B travelling at a velocity of vba, would appear to travel at a velocity of vca=vcb+vba, relative to A.
These two statements both had experimental verification, but the latter only had experiment verification for relatively low velocities.
However the two statements resulted in a contradiction which results in a major problem.

Einstein didn't simply say, this is wrong, so this other model must be correct.
Of course not, he would not be so dense.
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Instead, his relatively claimed that in reality vca=(vcb+vba)/(1+vcb*vba/c^2), thus when vcb and vba are much less than c, then vcb*vba<<c^2, and thus 1+vcb*vba/c^2~=1 and thus for low speeds, the old formula provides a very good approximation.
Meanwhile, if vcb=c, then you get:
vca=(c+vba)/(1+c*vba/c^2)=(c+vba)/(1+vba/c)=c*(c+vba)/(c*(1+vba/c))=c*(c+vba)/(c+vba)=c.
Which matches the observation that light always travels at the same speed.
The way you explain it, aside from being wrong, in its essence ruins the whole greatness of what it was. It wasn't that; whatever Einstein did Lorenz did in that field earlier a bit more crudely. It was the shift between a pseudoforce and a force and away from the old ether that made it so promising. Disillusionment from the Ether; neither real discrete problems but shifts of philosophy. Neither solved any real issues. His view was not shown until far after it was believed by the majority of scientists at the time too. Something about it appealed and seemed useful.
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So this revolution was because of Einstein's relativity being able to solve this contradiction.
Sounds useful.


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The other key part is that it builds upon prior science, rather than discarding it.

So until you can show how FE solves a problem, it is not a valid reason to reject RE and replace it with FE.
You want to just discard all science and assert FE with no justification at all.
Nothing doesn't build from prior science. Are we islands? Do we spontaneously generate from thin air like wisps? No. Stop being silly.
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As far as risk analysis goes, its essentially Pascal's Wager all over again.
Sure, if you mean that it has been asserted by you in horribly flawed way which blatantly misrepresents the reality of the situation and a more rational, honest analysis would lead to the opposite conclusion, that based upon how well RE is at predicting reality and how bad FE models are, the risk analysis would indicate one should accept RE, not FE.
The more you talk, the more it sounds like you mean "myself" when you say stuff like "more rational honest" and "science." I don't think a lot you said here was true. I gave it honest analysis - more so than most I'd wager. I can show it is rational. You simply disagree with the rational.
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By assuming we know anything.
And have you proven we don't know anything?
Do you know we don't know anything?
No.

So how can you say I have failed? How can you know I have failed?
Or are you just baselessly asserting crap again?

Of course I haven't proven anything.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:01:55 PM by John Davis »
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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JackBlack

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Re: Emotion
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2018, 09:51:48 PM »
Its not purely by chance. Like your example earlier, we made a true enough false model that was useful.
A model that is true some of the time.
i.e. it is not wrong 100% of the time.

It sounds like you base a lot on empiricism.
That doesn't mean everything would be.

Perhaps if you could do so simultaneously.  Let me put it this way. You have a well walked model, that we all admit isn't 'true'; a far less walked path that might show promise. It certainly shows use.
No. It doesn't show any use. It was previously the "more walked model". Then RE came along and actually had significant promise. It was capable of solving numerous problems and now works quite well. FE provides no promise.

It also doesn't need to be simultaneously.
A similar argument applies if you instead just go back and forth.

Its empirical basis was not yet provided by the Optical theory that came later.
SO WHAT?
It provided an explanation to a problem that geocentric models faced.

Likewise, it failed to predict many things the epicycle and other models could. It was also patently wrong at times, and failed to tell the tides of a day
Care to provide any examples of these, or is it just more baseless crap?

Only because modern man has the idea in his head that he is not special. This is not rational at all.
No, would be irrational is just asserting mankind is special and that Earth should be special.

Could this not be realized through differing epicycle circles?
Sure, where the planets orbit a point which in turn circles Earth, where conveniently that point circling Earth coincides with the sun.

Sounds like a poor reach at induction. If my pipe smokes, why doesn't my armchair?
No, it is nothing like that.

A helix isn't chaotic.
It isn't a simple helix. Regardless that ignores the point. The geocentric model has no sane justification for the path of the sun.

Again, it failed on so many other counts
You keep saying this, but you are yet to show how.

Tides.
You seem to like repeating tides.
But you are yet to show how the heliocentric model introduced any problems for tides.
Remember, you can't just show that the heliocentric model didn't have an explanation, you would need to show that the geocentric model did.
Also remember that even in the heliocentric model, the moon orbits Earth due to its proximity.

Then we are on equal ground.
No we aren't.
I don't just rely upon assertions like you, nor does the RE.
The RE has been shown with evidence and theory which can make predictions and has explanatory power.

It comes down to no such thing. I am not arguing about definition here.
Really?
Then why did you say this:
What do you mean by true?!
Sure seems like you are discussing definitions.

How would you determine how much it matches reality?
By comparing predictions from the model to reality.

Aside from seeing its use?
Using something is not the same as something being useful.

Because we have seen, above, this is not a prerequisite.
No, as you have baselessly asserted above. You are yet to show it at all.
Meanwhile, I have shown that without this prerequisite you get a contradiction or at best just switching back and forth between models to no end.

Of course not, he would not be so dense.
Yet that is effectively what you are doing.

The way you explain it, aside from being wrong
Yet you seem unable to show how it is wrong.

Sounds useful.
Again, the use is irrelevant.
What was relevant was the ability to solve problems.

Nothing doesn't build from prior science.
FE doesn't build from prior science.
It discards almost everything we know about Earth.
That is not building from science, that is discarding it.

Stop being silly.
I'm not the one being silly here.

I don't think a lot you said here was true. I gave it honest analysis
I don't think what you said there was true.

You simply disagree with the rational.
How about you try proving that, rather than just throwing insults to dismiss people?

Of course I haven't proven anything.
Well you got one thing correct.