Emotion

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

Are posts being deleted? What's going on?

I split off the bullshit and moved it to CN.

I split off the bullshit and moved it to CN.

Ah ok, thanks for the quick answer.

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because the television tells us not to listen to scientists that break the current narrative.

Well, that doesn't stop me but still.

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because the television tells us not to listen to scientists that break the current narrative.

Well, that doesn't stop me but still.

"round earth" isn't a narrative, and there are not actual scientists that believe the earth is flat.

Quote from: disputeone on March 07, 2018, 01:28:14 AM

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because the television tells us not to listen to scientists that break the current narrative.

Well, that doesn't stop me but still.

"round earth" isn't a narrative, and there are not actual scientists that believe the earth is flat.

There certainly aren't.

Maybe because the earth is actually spherical?

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because the television tells us not to listen to scientists that break the current narrative.

Well, that doesn't stop me but still.

What would stop you?  (asking for a friend.)

Logic.
God gave us brains to use.

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I do not want to believe anything.

I arrive at a current state of personal knowledge based on current personal experience.

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Never trust.

Always verify.

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I do not.

Why do you ascribe powers to me that others do not posses?

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

Yes.

I do quite frequently and without equivocation or mental reservation, more so than do RE-tards, who merely slough off their blatant lies and purposeful obfuscation by unerring and unending shitposting and gaslighting.

Yep, question everything and don't just believe something that somebody tells you.

Well, that's all well and good but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself "where is the evidence leading me?"

Science is the application of rational thinking and the respect for evidence.

Michael Shermer (Skeptics Society) has taken an idea from Carl Sagan and formulated a "baloney detection kit" that goes like this....

1. How reliable is the source of the claim?
2. Does the source make similar claims?
3. Have the claims been verified by somebody else?
4. Does this fit with the way the world works?
5. Has anyone tried to disprove the claim?
6. Where does the preponderance of evidence point?
7. Is the claimant(s) playing by the rules of science?
8. Does verifiable evidence exist?
9. Are personal beliefs driving the claim?

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I do not want to believe anything.

I arrive at a current state of personal knowledge based on current personal experience.

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Never trust.

Always verify.

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I do not.

Why do you ascribe powers to me that others do not posses?

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

Yes.

I do quite frequently and without equivocation or mental reservation, more so than do RE-tards, who merely slough off their blatant lies and purposeful obfuscation by unerring and unending shitposting and gaslighting.

Thanks for the sincere reply!

Maybe you don’t “want” to believe anything, and I think that’s a safer route. Its been said by other flat earthers that they want to believe it, so maybe someone else will chime in on this topic.

I like to trust when I can, because I believe it is a more efficient way to absorb information. My motto is “trust, but also verify”, that way I can keep new information in a sort of purgatory until I can evaluate it. Admittedly, I don’t get around to verifying everything, but it’s a pretty good system.

Maybe I was reaching a bit on the special discernment, but I have seen others say that they can discern truth in spite of evidence to the contrary. For example, when self proclaimed astroprojections do not match other information sources. Or that they “just know” something.

Admitting mistakes is difficult for anyone, anywhere, so kudos to you and anyone else who can rise above it. I don’t always win that one, but I try.

Again thanks for the real answers

Never trust.

Always verify.

And how have you verified Earth is flat?

I do not.

Why do you ascribe powers to me that others do not posses?

The vast majority of people accept Earth is round.
The vast majority of people see no evidence for a flat Earth.
Yet you, one of a few, claim that Earth is flat and you are claiming (at least implicitly) that you have verified that.

All the evidence in the world which is capable of distinguishing between a flat and round Earth point to a round Earth. Almost everyone that has evaluated the evidence accepts that. It caused the ancients to discard their flat models of Earth and move to a round model of Earth.
Yet you seem to think that is wrong.

That sure seems like you have something most other people don't.
Or conversely, they have something you don't have.

So what makes you so special?

I do quite frequently and without equivocation or mental reservation, more so than do RE-tards, who merely slough off their blatant lies and purposeful obfuscation by unerring and unending shitposting and gaslighting.

There you go projecting again.

Maybe you don’t “want” to believe anything, and I think that’s a safer route. Its been said by other flat earthers that they want to believe it, so maybe someone else will chime in on this topic.

Personally, I would love for Earth to be flat. Sure, it would make satellite pictures harder, but it allows the possibility of an infinite Earth which would never run out of space.
It would allow long distance transmission of signals without Earth getting in the way.
It would also mean just a single time zone.
And, we would have flat maps which show Earth without distortion, making navigation much simpler (although technology has somewhat rendered this point obsolete).

It would be great, but all the evidence shows it to be wrong.

I like to watch sunsets and sunrises....

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 08, 2018, 10:38:10 AM

Maybe you don’t “want” to believe anything, and I think that’s a safer route. Its been said by other flat earthers that they want to believe it, so maybe someone else will chime in on this topic.

Personally, I would love for Earth to be flat. Sure, it would make satellite pictures harder, but it allows the possibility of an infinite Earth which would never run out of space.
It would allow long distance transmission of signals without Earth getting in the way.
It would also mean just a single time zone.
And, we would have flat maps which show Earth without distortion, making navigation much simpler (although technology has somewhat rendered this point obsolete).

It would be great, but all the evidence shows it to be wrong.

Globe or flat, I think the heliocentric model is more exciting; with space travel and such in the near future. Hell, even if we never meet an alien civilization, the mere concept is fantastic! As for a quality wall map, I can recommend imus geographics, but I’m still saving for a really nice globe. Isn’t a globe cooler than a flat map anyway?

Globe or flat, I think the heliocentric model is more exciting; with space travel and such in the near future. Hell, even if we never meet an alien civilization, the mere concept is fantastic!

It is just travelling through long stretches of emptyness.
This would still be achievable on an infinite flat Earth, there would just be land there.

As for a quality wall map, I can recommend imus geographics, but I’m still saving for a really nice globe. Isn’t a globe cooler than a flat map anyway?

I'm more interested in practicality.
You can't easily put a globe on a wall, you can only put a projection or part of it on it. If you want to make it bigger you need to make it bigger in 3D.

Quote from: totallackey on March 08, 2018, 06:24:22 AM

Never trust.

Always verify.

And how have you verified Earth is flat?

Who has written I have verified it?

The vast majority of people accept Earth is round.

Argumentum ad populum.

The vast majority of people see no evidence for a flat Earth.

Argumentum ad populum.

Yet you, one of a few, claim that Earth is flat and you are claiming (at least implicitly) that you have verified that.

Argumentum ad Jackassedness.

All the evidence in the world which is capable of distinguishing between a flat and round Earth point to a round Earth. Almost everyone that has evaluated the evidence accepts that. It caused the ancients to discard their flat models of Earth and move to a round model of Earth.
Yet you seem to think that is wrong.

You keep mentioning "all."

Yet do not list a single one.

And if you do mention one, there is not something about it that could not be questioned...

That sure seems like you have something most other people don't.
Or conversely, they have something you don't have.

So what makes you so special?

Nothing.

There you go projecting again.

Does anyone really care what your opinion is Jack?

I don't think so...

I don't think...

In other words, you have no real evidence that the earth is flat, so have to get all emotional about it!

Quote from: totallackey on March 09, 2018, 02:36:42 AM

I don't think...

In other words, you have no real evidence that the earth is flat, so have to get all emotional about it!

Kinda like you when you hit your last sip of grog in the house until you can collect your welfare check to stock up again...

You subjectively ignore what you don't like Pete, so take your application of the word "real," and shove it into the personal body orifice of your choosing...

Quote from: JackBlack on March 08, 2018, 12:25:40 PM

Quote from: totallackey on March 08, 2018, 06:24:22 AM

Never trust.

Always verify.

And how have you verified Earth is flat?

Who has written I have verified it?

You said to never trust and always verify.
You have also repeatedly indicated you think Earth is flat.

Logically that means you should have verified that, rather than just trusting it.

Argumentum ad populum.

No it isn't.
I'm not using this vast majority of people to show Earth is round.
I am using them to show you are not part of them.
The vast majority of people accept Earth is round.
You claim it is flat.
That means you're different.
That means you're special.
What makes you so special?

What do you have that others don't or what don't you have that others do?

You keep mentioning "all."
Yet do not list a single one.

Because I have provided it to you in other threads and it is not the main point of this thread.

Now how about you actually address what has been said rather than just dismissing it.

Quote from: JackBlack on March 08, 2018, 12:25:40 PM

So what makes you so special?

Nothing.

If that was the case you would accept Earth is round.
So does that mean you accept Earth is round?
If not, what makes you special?

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I don't want to. Most flatists don't want to as well; the evidence leads them to this in spite of not wanting to when they look it up and try to disprove it.

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because they have historically shown to be wrong 100% of the time.

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I am different because I know I know nothing.

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

I know I can admit when I am wrong about most things.

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I do not want to believe anything.

I arrive at a current state of personal knowledge based on current personal experience.

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Never trust.

Always verify.

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I do not.

Why do you ascribe powers to me that others do not posses?

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

Yes.

I do quite frequently and without equivocation or mental reservation, more so than do RE-tards, who merely slough off their blatant lies and purposeful obfuscation by unerring and unending shitposting and gaslighting.

Radio, tv, computers, electricity, microwaves etc...all must really mess with you only believing what you see?

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I don't want to. Most flatists don't want to as well; the evidence leads them to this in spite of not wanting to when they look it up and try to disprove it.

Quote

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because they have historically shown to be wrong 100% of the time.

Quote

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I am different because I know I know nothing.

Quote

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

I know I can admit when I am wrong about most things.

You say experts are wrong 100% of the time. Never I have I read such an intellectually corrupt statement.
You say you are a computer programmer?
Did experts no develop the very thing you claim to code for?
You drive a car?
Did an army of experts not develop all the technologies used to create such a machine?
You live in a house supplied with a range of utilities?
Who developed these?....was it not thousands of experts in thousands of different fields?
...and you believe in a flat earth, say no more!

Quote from: John Davis on March 09, 2018, 01:09:52 PM

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I don't want to. Most flatists don't want to as well; the evidence leads them to this in spite of not wanting to when they look it up and try to disprove it.

Quote

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because they have historically shown to be wrong 100% of the time.

Quote

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I am different because I know I know nothing.

Quote

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

I know I can admit when I am wrong about most things.

You say experts are wrong 100% of the time. Never I have I read such an intellectually corrupt statement.

It certainly needs further explanation, which I will give later in this post.

You say you are a computer programmer?

I'm a full stack engineer at a household name.

Did experts no develop the very thing you claim to code for?
You drive a car?
Did an army of experts not develop all the technologies used to create such a machine?
You live in a house supplied with a range of utilities?
Who developed these?....was it not thousands of experts in thousands of different fields?
...and you believe in a flat earth, say no more!

At every single point in history we have later found out our view of the universe was completely wrong (or will). I see no evidence that this will change. The fact we can engineer solutions using incorrect models means little; it would be similar to say "Roman science allowed for the engineering of Aquaducts. Since they used Aquaducts, their view must be correct in all ways."

Quote from: Lonegranger on March 09, 2018, 02:19:17 PM

Quote from: John Davis on March 09, 2018, 01:09:52 PM

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I don't want to. Most flatists don't want to as well; the evidence leads them to this in spite of not wanting to when they look it up and try to disprove it.

Quote

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because they have historically shown to be wrong 100% of the time.

Quote

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I am different because I know I know nothing.

Quote

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

I know I can admit when I am wrong about most things.

You say experts are wrong 100% of the time. Never I have I read such an intellectually corrupt statement.

It certainly needs further explanation, which I will give later in this post.

Quote

You say you are a computer programmer?

I'm a full stack engineer at a household name.

Quote

Did experts no develop the very thing you claim to code for?
You drive a car?
Did an army of experts not develop all the technologies used to create such a machine?
You live in a house supplied with a range of utilities?
Who developed these?....was it not thousands of experts in thousands of different fields?
...and you believe in a flat earth, say no more!

At every single point in history we have later found out our view of the universe was completely wrong (or will). I see no evidence that this will change. The fact we can engineer solutions using incorrect models means little; it would be similar to say "Roman science allowed for the engineering of Aquaducts. Since they used Aquaducts, their view must be correct in all ways."

Isnt there a difference between an object being wrong or just not efficient enough? And what incorrect models?

Models become more accurate in a real way through paradigm shift, not through 'normal science' or honing a theory in via empirical knowledge and testing. A theory will always have phenomena and evidence it cannot account for, making the entirety of the body it is in incorrect as any part of the body is by necessity defined by its context.

For example, the theory of epicycles in planetary movement would be a theory that was wrong, in spite of it at the time being the empirical best choice. It was replaced by a heliocentric model not due to empirical basis (which came historically much later for heliocentric thought), but because of a paradigm shift that gave hope that it could solve a set of problems the previous theory could not hope to deal with.

I took some liberties to understand what you mean, as a theory being inefficient would mean it would take a long time to gain results through it.

For example, the theory of epicycles in planetary movement would be a theory that was wrong, in spite of it at the time being the empirical best choice. It was replaced by a heliocentric model not due to empirical basis (which came historically much later for heliocentric thought), but because of a paradigm shift that gave hope that it could solve a set of problems the previous theory could not hope to deal with.

But, correct me of im wrong, you do believe in FE theorie because RE can't explain some problem? If so, which problem?

Quote from: Lonegranger on March 09, 2018, 02:19:17 PM

Quote from: John Davis on March 09, 2018, 01:09:52 PM

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I don't want to. Most flatists don't want to as well; the evidence leads them to this in spite of not wanting to when they look it up and try to disprove it.

Quote

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because they have historically shown to be wrong 100% of the time.

Quote

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I am different because I know I know nothing.

Quote

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

I know I can admit when I am wrong about most things.

You say experts are wrong 100% of the time. Never I have I read such an intellectually corrupt statement.

It certainly needs further explanation, which I will give later in this post.

Quote

You say you are a computer programmer?

I'm a full stack engineer at a household name.

Quote

Did experts no develop the very thing you claim to code for?
You drive a car?
Did an army of experts not develop all the technologies used to create such a machine?
You live in a house supplied with a range of utilities?
Who developed these?....was it not thousands of experts in thousands of different fields?
...and you believe in a flat earth, say no more!

At every single point in history we have later found out our view of the universe was completely wrong (or will). I see no evidence that this will change. The fact we can engineer solutions using incorrect models means little; it would be similar to say "Roman science allowed for the engineering of Aquaducts. Since they used Aquaducts, their view must be correct in all ways."

Wait, if this is true than you are basicly saying that, in some later future we will discover that the earth is not flat? Then why would you believe in it?

Quote from: John Davis on March 09, 2018, 02:44:12 PM

For example, the theory of epicycles in planetary movement would be a theory that was wrong, in spite of it at the time being the empirical best choice. It was replaced by a heliocentric model not due to empirical basis (which came historically much later for heliocentric thought), but because of a paradigm shift that gave hope that it could solve a set of problems the previous theory could not hope to deal with.

But, correct me of im wrong, you do believe in FE theorie because RE can't explain some problem? If so, which problem?

No, I don't believe it simply on that fact, but that helps justify my belief.

No, not some problem; all the problems it can't explain.

Quote from: John Davis on March 09, 2018, 02:28:52 PM

Quote from: Lonegranger on March 09, 2018, 02:19:17 PM

Quote from: John Davis on March 09, 2018, 01:09:52 PM

Quote from: defender_of_truth on March 06, 2018, 09:55:17 AM

Let’s have a discussion about the emotions related to the belief in a flat earth and think critically about those, so let’s put aside the science of the shape of the earth for the sake of this discussion. I suppose it wouldn’t be that different than the psychology of any other conspiracy, but let’s see what we find. I want to keep this discussion fair and polite, because we won’t get anywhere exchanging insults.

I want to start by asking flat earthers a few specific questions:

1. What makes you WANT to believe that the earth is flat?

I don't want to. Most flatists don't want to as well; the evidence leads them to this in spite of not wanting to when they look it up and try to disprove it.

Quote

2. Why would you tend to distrust experts in specific scientific fields?

Because they have historically shown to be wrong 100% of the time.

Quote

3. Why do you think you are different, that you can discern something that most cannot?

I am different because I know I know nothing.

Quote

4. Do you believe you can admit when you are wrong about something?

I know I can admit when I am wrong about most things.

You say experts are wrong 100% of the time. Never I have I read such an intellectually corrupt statement.

It certainly needs further explanation, which I will give later in this post.

Quote

You say you are a computer programmer?

I'm a full stack engineer at a household name.

Quote

Did experts no develop the very thing you claim to code for?
You drive a car?
Did an army of experts not develop all the technologies used to create such a machine?
You live in a house supplied with a range of utilities?
Who developed these?....was it not thousands of experts in thousands of different fields?
...and you believe in a flat earth, say no more!

At every single point in history we have later found out our view of the universe was completely wrong (or will). I see no evidence that this will change. The fact we can engineer solutions using incorrect models means little; it would be similar to say "Roman science allowed for the engineering of Aquaducts. Since they used Aquaducts, their view must be correct in all ways."

Wait, if this is true than you are basicly saying that, in some later future we will discover that the earth is not flat? Then why would you believe in it?

We believe in anything because it is believed fruitful to believe in it. I happen to believe it provides us a theory that is closer to truth. Of course, a shift like I described earlier may provide an even closer theory - and at that time I'll gladly admit my view is wrong. In the meanwhile, I have a responsibility to knowledge to argue my view is right, in that it is the closest to right that I've seen.