Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?

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Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« on: February 13, 2018, 04:51:09 PM »
In some versions of the flat Earth theory, the distance between Sydney and Santiago is such that a subsonic airliner would take about 40 hours to make the journey. This contrasts with the less than 13 hours for the advertised schedules. The reality of such flights would be a serious problem for those versions of the theory. The approach that seems to be adopted by flag Earth believers is that these flights do not in fact exist, or take a lot more than the claimed time.

So, the question is, assuming that the flights do exist and do take the advertised time, how could this be proved to the flat Earth believers?

Even if a flat Earth believer takes such a flight, and then accepts that the journey took less than 13 hours, and assuming they accept that the aircraft they flew in is not capable of supersonic flight, they would be just one person. If they subsequently announce that they've seen proof that the Earth is not flat, it seems likely that others would simply claim that the person had been tricked, bribed, or cooerced into making the announcement.

A widely accepted proof about these flights would have to take a form that could be checked by each individual to be convinced. I'm having difficulty thinking of anything that would fit that requirement. Even videos are potentially suspect these days, given the extent to which they can be modified by anyone with sufficient resources.

Perhaps the Sydney to Santiago flight argument is a dead-end, not because it's wrong, but because there's no way of proving that it's right to people who are determined to disbelieve it.




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Shifter

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Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 10:20:36 PM »
I am guessing you are referencing a similar map to this



I am guessing you are imagining a plane travelling in a straight line, flying over West Russia, ending up over Scandinavia and then North America to get there.

This is not how movement works

Follow the horizontal grid line so you are going 'around' in a circle shape to get from Sydney to Santiago passing New Zealand on your way. The map is a bit rough but the route the plane flies is the same. What you perceive as a 'straight line' is actually not straight.


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Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 10:28:32 PM »
I am guessing you are referencing a similar map to this



I am guessing you are imagining a plane travelling in a straight line, flying over West Russia, ending up over Scandinavia and then North America to get there.

This is not how movement works

Follow the horizontal grid line so you are going 'around' in a circle shape to get from Sydney to Santiago passing New Zealand on your way. The map is a bit rough but the route the plane flies is the same. What you perceive as a 'straight line' is actually not straight.
The question is not so much whether it's straight, but how the aircraft can cover the distance in less than 13 hours. On the face of it, making the path not straight just makes matters worse.

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Shifter

  • 15544
  • Flat Earth Believer
Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 10:39:03 PM »
How so? It is the same route. No plane flies from Sydney over China, Russia, Scandinavia, North America to get to South America. They fly over the Pacific Ocean

Note the grid boxes are larger the closer to the edge but tiny in the centre. This is distortion and why it doesn't 'look' right. Someone should make a better map that has a universal scale consistent to anywhere on the map
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Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 11:14:03 PM »
Someone should make a better map that has a universal scale consistent to anywhere on the map.
The problem with flat maps of a spherical Earth is that there's inevitably some distortion or shapes, angles, or both, because there's no way of flattening a surface that curves in more than one direction without either stretching, or compressing, parts of it - a universal scale is impossible. Straight lines on the map generally don't correspond to the shortest distance between two points on the Earth.

In the case of flat Earth, this problem doesn't exist, and the most obvious way of mapping it is to reduce it by a linear scale. On such a map, straight lines correspond to straight lines on the Earth, and should represent the shortest distance between two points.

This is straying somewhat from the topic of the thread, though it does raise the question of whether proof that travel from Sydney to Santiago can be done in less than thirteen hours invalidates a flat Earth of the form shown in your map.

Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2018, 11:45:43 PM »
This is distortion and why it doesn't 'look' right. Someone should make a better map that has a universal scale consistent to anywhere on the map
Yes, someone should.
Unfortunately, no flat map of Earth has ever been able to show Earth without distortion, at least not with large scales.
Almost like Earth isn't flat.

If Earth was flat, and was like that map shows, there wouldn't be any distortion.

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rabinoz

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Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 12:28:13 AM »
I am guessing you are referencing a similar map to this



I am guessing you are imagining a plane travelling in a straight line, flying over West Russia, ending up over Scandinavia and then North America to get there.
Why would a flight from Sydney to Santiago ever be "travelling in a straight line, flying over West Russia, ending up over Scandinavia and then North America to get there"?
That's not a straight line from Sydney, Australia to Santiago, Chile.

Quote from: Shifter
This is not how movement works

Follow the horizontal grid line so you are going 'around' in a circle shape to get from Sydney to Santiago passing New Zealand on your way. The map is a bit rough but the route the plane flies is the same. What you perceive as a 'straight line' is actually not straight.
There are no horizontal grid lines, only circular lines of latitude and lines of latitude.
But, what on earth do you mean by, "What you perceive as a 'straight line' is actually not straight"? I thought that a straight line was defined rather unambiguously on a flat surface.

And if the earth were flat and of that shape, then the map would be just a small scale diagram of the earth.
A straight line on the earth would map to a straight line on the map.

And then here are the shortest distance routes from Sydney(Australia) to Santiago (Chile) on the Gleason's Map and on Google Earth (for the Globe).
Note that the actual routes used on long distant flights will usually be chosen to fit in with the current winds. The return flight from Chile to Sydney often would be routed further south, possibly within sight of Antarctica.
    Shortest Sydney to Santiago on "Gleason Map"
    about 25,400 km
   
                     
    Actual route flown by QF28 on Nov 19, 2016
    about 11,400 km

QF28, Route on Polar Projection
The shortest distance on the usual flat earth map is about about 25,400 km. There are no planes that could do that non-stop, let alone in around 12 hours?

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Shifter

  • 15544
  • Flat Earth Believer
Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 01:32:47 AM »
For the purposes of flat eartherism let's say the laws of physics are weird and operate differently than what you've been led to believe on the standard model

Using words like quantum and sub space is good enough to give audiences a suspension of disbelief so let's say quantum sub space fields are responsible for making the flat earth seem like a globe earth
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rabinoz

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Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 01:58:18 AM »
For the purposes of flat eartherism let's say the laws of physics are weird and operate differently than what you've been led to believe on the standard model

Using words like quantum and sub space is good enough to give audiences a suspension of disbelief so let's say quantum sub space fields are responsible for making the flat earth seem like a globe earth
I don't think that neo-flat eartherism needs anything like weird laws of physics and esoteric things like quantum sub space to seem totally impossible.

Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 02:46:44 AM »
For the purposes of flat eartherism let's say the laws of physics are weird and operate differently than what you've been led to believe on the standard model

Using words like quantum and sub space is good enough to give audiences a suspension of disbelief so let's say quantum sub space fields are responsible for making the flat earth seem like a globe earth
I'm convinced.
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Re: Sydney to Santiago - what would it take to prove?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 03:37:46 AM »
For the purposes of flat eartherism let's say the laws of physics are weird and operate differently than what you've been led to believe on the standard model

Using words like quantum and sub space is good enough to give audiences a suspension of disbelief so let's say quantum sub space fields are responsible for making the flat earth seem like a globe earth
The problem with that is it then goes against their claims that "it looks flat".
If you have this magic warping to make the flat Earth seem like a globe, what reason is there to think it is flat?
It seems to behave in every way like a round Earth.