What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?

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Macarios

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What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« on: February 07, 2018, 03:06:52 AM »
Globe model claims that Polaris is 433.8 light years away, directly above North pole.
Flat model claims that Polaris is much closer, at couple of thousand miles.

Globe Earthers, if you don't know what Flat model claims to be there, don't pretend you do.
What you know is from Globe model.

Flat Earthers will know better what Flat model claims to be at 433.8 light years above North pole.
This is the question for them.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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Tessa Yuri

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2018, 03:08:40 AM »
Globe model claims that Polaris is 433.8 light years away, directly above North pole.
Flat model claims that Polaris is much closer, at couple of thousand miles.

Globe Earthers, if you don't know what Flat model claims to be there, don't pretend you do.
What you know is from Globe model.

Flat Earthers will know better what Flat model claims to be at 433.8 light years above North pole.
This is the question for them.

I believe Polaris is there, and I'm a flat earther.
Tessa believes in the scientific method.
Yuri believes the Earth is a flat disk.
     _________              _________         _________
.<`X######I---I|    |I[][][][][][][][]I|     |I[][][][][][][][]I|
-=o--o====o--o=-=o-o====o-o=-=o-o====o-o=

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Macarios

  • 2074
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2018, 03:10:36 AM »
Globe model claims that Polaris is 433.8 light years away, directly above North pole.
Flat model claims that Polaris is much closer, at couple of thousand miles.

Globe Earthers, if you don't know what Flat model claims to be there, don't pretend you do.
What you know is from Globe model.

Flat Earthers will know better what Flat model claims to be at 433.8 light years above North pole.
This is the question for them.

I believe Polaris is there, and I'm a flat earther.

Thanks for the answer.
How do you see the Dome in that model? Is it opaque, transparent, or it is not exactly a solid object?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

*

Tessa Yuri

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  • The shortest distance between two points is a lie.
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 03:11:53 AM »
Thanks for the answer.
How do you see the Dome in that model? Is it opaque, transparent, or it is not exactly a solid object?

You're most welcome!
There is no dome in this model.
Tessa believes in the scientific method.
Yuri believes the Earth is a flat disk.
     _________              _________         _________
.<`X######I---I|    |I[][][][][][][][]I|     |I[][][][][][][][]I|
-=o--o====o--o=-=o-o====o-o=-=o-o====o-o=

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Macarios

  • 2074
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2018, 03:19:54 AM »
Thanks for the answer.
How do you see the Dome in that model? Is it opaque, transparent, or it is not exactly a solid object?

You're most welcome!
There is no dome in this model.

Does it mean that Sigma Octantis CAN be 281 light years away in the opposite direction from Polaris?
(714.8 light years from each other.)
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

*

Tessa Yuri

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  • The shortest distance between two points is a lie.
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2018, 03:23:06 AM »
Does it mean that Sigma Octantis CAN be 281 light years away in the opposite direction from Polaris?
(714.8 light years from each other.)

Yes.
Tessa believes in the scientific method.
Yuri believes the Earth is a flat disk.
     _________              _________         _________
.<`X######I---I|    |I[][][][][][][][]I|     |I[][][][][][][][]I|
-=o--o====o--o=-=o-o====o-o=-=o-o====o-o=

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Macarios

  • 2074
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2018, 03:25:55 AM »
Does it mean that Sigma Octantis CAN be 281 light years away in the opposite direction from Polaris?
(714.8 light years from each other.)

Yes.

In that case Sigma Octantis is 281 light years BELOW North pole.
Being in the opposite direction, what the Polaris is below?

EDIT: When you stand straight up in Antarctica, where is Polaris relative to you?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 03:27:53 AM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

*

Tessa Yuri

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  • The shortest distance between two points is a lie.
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2018, 03:33:32 AM »
EDIT: When you stand straight up in Antarctica, where is Polaris relative to you?

Below you.
Tessa believes in the scientific method.
Yuri believes the Earth is a flat disk.
     _________              _________         _________
.<`X######I---I|    |I[][][][][][][][]I|     |I[][][][][][][][]I|
-=o--o====o--o=-=o-o====o-o=-=o-o====o-o=

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Macarios

  • 2074
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2018, 04:00:42 AM »
EDIT: When you stand straight up in Antarctica, where is Polaris relative to you?

Below you.

Thanks again.

If you stand at North pole, local horizontal is perpendicular to direction towards Polaris.

If you stand at latitude of 45 degrees north for Equinox at solar noon,
you will see Polaris at 45 degrees above norhtern horizon,
and Sun 45 degrees above southern horizon.

What is the angle between your new local horizontal at 45 degrees north and old local horizontal at North pole?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2018, 12:23:33 PM »
Globe model claims that Polaris is 433.8 light years away, directly above North pole.
Flat model claims that Polaris is much closer, at couple of thousand miles.

Globe Earthers, if you don't know what Flat model claims to be there, don't pretend you do.
What you know is from Globe model.

Flat Earthers will know better what Flat model claims to be at 433.8 light years above North pole.
This is the question for them.

There is no NSEW, or above, or below, or to the side in space. It is all relative.  If you take the earth as the reference point Polaris still wouldn't be "directly above" you.  It's simply visible from your point of view.

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Shifter

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2018, 01:24:52 PM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Seems legit

RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

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rabinoz

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 03:26:30 PM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Seems legit
Smart aleck!
But, why shouldn't we be able to see something ‎323433 light years away? Do you have any valid reasons?

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Shifter

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2018, 03:38:28 PM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Seems legit
Smart aleck!
But, why shouldn't we be able to see something ‎323–433 light years away? Do you have any valid reasons?

I have trouble resolving the bottom line of letters when I visit the optometrist and that's only a few meters away.
RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

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Tessa Yuri

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2018, 06:43:19 PM »
I have trouble resolving the bottom line of letters when I visit the optometrist and that's only a few meters away.

But we can't resolve the star, it's blurry and indistinct. We can see the light from it though. Just like if there's a fireworks display a few kilometres from your house, you may not be able to make out each individual sparkle, but you can see the light from it.

EDIT: This |
                 V
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 07:04:31 PM by Tessa Yuri »
Tessa believes in the scientific method.
Yuri believes the Earth is a flat disk.
     _________              _________         _________
.<`X######I---I|    |I[][][][][][][][]I|     |I[][][][][][][][]I|
-=o--o====o--o=-=o-o====o-o=-=o-o====o-o=

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rabinoz

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2018, 06:57:15 PM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Seems legit
Smart aleck!
But, why shouldn't we be able to see something ‎323433 light years away? Do you have any valid reasons?

I have trouble resolving the bottom line of letters when I visit the optometrist and that's only a few meters away.
Well I don't, but that is totally irrelevant. The typical resolution for the eye is about 1 minute of arc, written as 1'.
When viewing a star you are not trying to "resolve anything", just to see the presence or absence of light.

It does not make any difference how small the source of light is - as long as:
  • there is sufficient contrast between the object and the background - light against a dark background is ideal and
  • sufficient light reaches the eye
we can see the object.

A very bright object (a star) against a black background can be seen at any distance, provided sufficient light enters the eye.

On the question of
Quote from: MIT Technological Review
How Far Can the Human Eye See a Candle Flame?
Answers on the Web vary from a few thousand meters to 48 kilometers.
Now a pair of physicists has carried out an experiment to find out.

See the details in: How Far Can the Human Eye See a Candle Flame?
The result claimed is:
Quote
We show that a candle flame situated at ~2.6 km (1.6 miles) is comparable in brightness to a 6th magnitude star with the spectral energy distribution of Vega. The human eye cannot detect a candle flame at 10 miles or further, as some statements on the web suggest.
A 6th magnitude star is regarded as about the limit of unaided vision.
Guessing the candle flame as 15 mm high x 5 mm wide, its angular size would be: 0.02 x 0.007 minutes of arc - far smaller than the resolution limit of the eye.
To resolve two candles they would need to be at least 750 mm apart

This is just a quick example, but the visibility distance is bright object against a dark background is limited only by the brightness.

The magnitude scale for stars has a long history, see Wikipedia, Magnitude (astronomy).
Quote
The scale is logarithmic, and defined such that each step of one magnitude changes the brightness by a factor of the fifth root of 100, or approximately 2.512. For example, a magnitude 1 star is exactly a hundred times brighter than a magnitude 6 star, as the difference of five magnitude steps corresponds to 2.5125 or 100.
I imagine that if a stellar brightness scale were designed now if might be "simpler numbers".
But, whatever, the larger the "magnitude" the dimmer the star and the magnitude of Polaris is 1.97 making it an easily visible star.

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Macarios

  • 2074
Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2018, 01:23:12 AM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Seems legit

If it wasn't so bright, we would need powerful telescope.
Yes, angular diameter of Polaris is small, but brightness is the reason we can see it.
At least, Globe model says so.

What do YOU think?
What is there?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2018, 02:53:04 AM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Yep.
Nullius in Verba

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Shifter

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2018, 12:59:51 PM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Yep.


And you also have no problem with the unaided human eye seeing light from objects in the Andromeda galaxy at roughly 23,651,826,181,452,000,000km away either I guess

If the refractive index of space is 1 and we can see that far, why, despite the refractive index of air only being a fraction greater at 1.000293 why could I not see if a boat exploded in a great ball of fire a little over a mere 5km away?  8) ;D :P HUH? HUH???


RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

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The Real Celine Dion

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2018, 01:08:11 PM »
You think there is no problem seeing an object that is 4,104,064,879,005,551.04km away?

Yep.


And you also have no problem with the unaided human eye seeing light from objects in the Andromeda galaxy at roughly 23,651,826,181,452,000,000km away either I guess

If the refractive index of space is 1 and we can see that far, why, despite the refractive index of air only being a fraction greater at 1.000293 why could I not see if a boat exploded in a great ball of fire a little over a mere 5km away?  8) ;D :P HUH? HUH???

The curvature of the Earth.
You just got Weskered, bitches!

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Shifter

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2018, 01:11:00 PM »
Curvature you say? But what of the flat earth theory??  ???  ???  ???
RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

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rabinoz

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2018, 01:35:00 PM »
Curvature you say? But what of the flat earth theory??  ???  ???  ???
Whose FET?
Every flat earther seems to have a different one and different explanations for such common occurrences as sunrises and sunsets.

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Shifter

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2018, 01:37:21 PM »
Curvature you say? But what of the flat earth theory??  ???  ???  ???
Whose FET?
Every flat earther seems to have a different one and different explanations for such common occurrences as sunrises and sunsets.

Well I'm sure they all share the consensus that the earth is not a ball that curves in on itself
RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

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Papa Legba

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2018, 01:41:58 PM »
Curvature you say? But what of the flat earth theory??  ???  ???  ???
Whose FET?

Your FET, rabbibot.

I've never encountered anyone so obsessed with it, or expert in its every tiny irrelevant detail...

Wanna explain why?

In a convincing manner, if possible...
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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rabinoz

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2018, 01:56:00 PM »
Curvature you say? But what of the flat earth theory??  ???  ???  ???
Whose FET?

Your FET, rabbibot.

I think that you're getting me confused with someone that cares what a Voodoo Priest thinks, but then you seem confused all the time, so that's nothing new.
But I don't have a FET, but you Voodoo Priests have lots of fetishes.

Bye bye, take care than don't neglect all your Voodoo Rituals.

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Papa Legba

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2018, 02:06:04 PM »
Curvature you say? But what of the flat earth theory??  ???  ???  ???
Whose FET?

Your FET, rabbibot.

I think that you're getting me confused with someone that cares what a Voodoo Priest thinks, but then you seem confused all the time, so that's nothing new.
But I don't have a FET, but you Voodoo Priests have lots of fetishes.

Bye bye, take care than don't neglect all your Voodoo Rituals.

No, rabbibot, you know more about the intricacies of FET than anyone else on the internet...

Just wondering what's the score with that is all.

You don't wanna answer, fine...

Just looks dodgy to me...

Abnormal, like.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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rabinoz

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2018, 08:41:11 PM »
No, rabbibot, you know more about the intricacies of FET than anyone else on the internet...
Hardly! But even if I did, why would I want to give FE answers anyway?

For a start, there is never one FE answer.

Quote from: Papa Legba
Just wondering what's the score with that is all.
I know what "the FAQ" says, nothing about Polaris at all and this about stars:
Quote
What is the Dome? The Firmament? The Vault of Heaven?
The area where we live on the Flat Earth is encased within a Dome, or Firmament. In some texts its also referred to as The Vault of Heaven. Found in a very surprising amount of religions and societies, the idea can be traced to Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian, and Christian world-views, and likely a great many more. Even some Native American tribes were said to see the night sky like a tent. The stars? They were little holes poked in the hide of the tent.

As a scientific explanation it serves very well. It was after all only with Copernicus that we started to question the idea of the Firmament. By then we already knew quite a bit about calculating and predicting the movement of the heavens.
And "the Wiki" says:
Quote
The Stars
The sun, moon, and stars are all rotating around a central point over the North Pole.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The stars in the night sky rotate around common barycenters above the earth just as the sun and moon do. From a location on the earth's surface the stars in the sky might seem to scroll across the night sky with Polaris at the hub.

See the rest in: The Stars
And
Quote
The southern constellations of the night sky appear to rise as you travel southwards
In response to why the southern constellations rise as the observer travels southward; that is to be expected with the stars being only about 3100 miles above the surface of the earth. As you travel southwards you are changing your perspective in relation to the stars and earth.

Now comes the trouble! As soon as anyone tries to debate these issues, some flat earther will pop up and say, "No no the FAQ/Wiki is wrong".

So, I'd rather play safe and keep quiet.

But to answer the OP from FET, "What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?" Easy, nothing!

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Papa Legba

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2018, 04:35:20 AM »
No, rabbibot, you know more about the intricacies of FET than anyone else on the internet...
Hardly! But even if I did, why would I want to give FE answers anyway?

Well that depends on the definition of "I" doesn't it?

In your case that definition is more than a little murky...

On with your games, anyway.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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sandokhan

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2018, 04:40:17 AM »
Legba, take a look at this:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=72601.msg2021997#msg2021997

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=72601.msg2022063#msg2022063

The jackbot is a total physics illiterate!!!

It used a variable radius for its Sagnac derivation, and this where the phase shift formula for the Sagnac features a constant radius.

Unbelievable!

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Papa Legba

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2018, 04:59:03 AM »
Legba, take a look at this:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=72601.msg2021997#msg2021997

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=72601.msg2022063#msg2022063

The jackbot is a total physics illiterate!!!

It used a variable radius for its Sagnac derivation, and this where the phase shift formula for the Sagnac features a constant radius.

Unbelievable!

The jackbot doesn't even know the difference between Newton's first, second and third laws, sandokhan...

It just takes terms like mass, momentum, force etc, ignores their physical definitions and interrelationships, then ties them up in mathemagical knots and presents them as science.

It is useless.

No need for further timewasting on its mad self.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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rabinoz

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Re: What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2018, 05:09:24 AM »
The jackbot doesn't even know the difference between Newton's first, second and third laws, sandokhan...

It just takes terms like mass, momentum, force etc, ignores their physical definitions and interrelationships, then ties them up in mathemagical knots and presents them as science.

Idiot! Newton's first, second and third laws simply don't come into understanding the Sagnac effect.
And Sandokhan is appealing to the most ignorant person on this site (yes you - or you pretend to be anyway!), bar none - what total dip-stick you both are.