Satellite Movement in Space

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InFlatEarth

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Satellite Movement in Space
« on: January 31, 2018, 01:08:44 PM »
Let's play your game about satellite motion in space where we have a vacuum in a new thread.

What is the mass of a satellite, 500 kg?
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/satellite_mass_categories.html

What is the speed of the satellite that is in orbit? 28,000 km/hr

(https://www.google.gr/search?num=20&newwindow=1&safe=active&dcr=0&ei=ViJyWtbtGsK8swG624TACw&q=What+is+the+speed+of+the+satellite+that+is+in+orbit%3F&oq=What+is+the+speed+of+the+satellite+that+is+in+orbit%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3...89710.89710.0.91533.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0....0.cigObm9FHMw)

What is the momentum of the satellite? Mass * Velocity

28,000 km/hr = 7,777.78 m/s

Momentum = 7,777.78 m/s * 500 kg = 3,888,890 kg * m /s

Conservation of Momentum dictates that in order to change the movement of the satellite, it must be conserved

Thus

Vo = Original Satellite Velocity m/s
Mo = Original Satellite mass with propellant kg

Vs = Final Satellite Velocity m/s
Vp = Final propellant Velocity m/s

Ms = Final Satellite Mass kg
Mp = Final propellant Mass kg

Mo*Vo = Vs*Ms + Vp*Mp

where V has an x, y z component (i,j,k)


OK, show me how much "propellant" is needed to change the direction of the satellite?

Good night, will check back tomorrow
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

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markjo

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2018, 01:10:58 PM »
It seems that you already have the formula, so why not just plug in your own numbers and find out for yourself?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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mike247

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 01:12:20 PM »
Change the direction how much?

A teeny amount of propellent will change its direction a teeny bit, a lot will change it a lot

problem solved


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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 01:19:39 PM »
Change the direction how much?

A teeny amount of propellent will change its direction a teeny bit, a lot will change it a lot

problem solved

Do the math, I have given everything to you.

If I solve it you will say that my assumptions are wrong, so you solve it and post the results.

It's time to put up or shut up.

I will even be nice to you, you can solve in a two dimensional only, no z-axis

Good Night!
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

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mike247

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2018, 01:24:50 PM »

Do the math, I have given everything to you.

If I solve it you will say that my assumptions are wrong, so you solve it and post the results.

It's time to put up or shut up.

I will even be nice to you, you can solve in a two dimensional only, no z-axis

Good Night!

Your question is not solvable with the information you have given me

how much of a direction change do you want me to solve for? Are we trying to stop the satellite dead or alter its orbit by 0.5 degrees?

You ask me to work out how much propellent you would need to alter its direction, but the more you alter it the more propellent you will need, do you understand?

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 01:34:58 PM »
You can use whatever assumptions you like. Assume that the satellite is of course by 100 Km from its place and you need to make it go their again.

If 100 is to much for you, try 10 Km and if that is too much for you try 1 Km and if that is too much for you try 100 meters and if that is too much for you, then you have to agree with me that HUSTON we have a problem.

I'm am giving you a medium size satellite at 500 Kg. remember your total mass is just 500 Kg and you are moving at over 7000 m/s.

Lets make it even simpler, you have to move the satellite 10 meters in the y direction, that is up
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2018, 01:39:29 PM »
You will also need to figure out the gravitational effects of the earth. Somebody posted this website on a different thread, it might help you

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/The-Value-of-g

say the satellite is in medium orbit, that is 2000 km
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

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MicroBeta

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 02:06:12 PM »
Let's play your game about satellite motion in space where we have a vacuum in a new thread.

What is the mass of a satellite, 500 kg?
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/satellite_mass_categories.html

What is the speed of the satellite that is in orbit? 28,000 km/hr

(https://www.google.gr/search?num=20&newwindow=1&safe=active&dcr=0&ei=ViJyWtbtGsK8swG624TACw&q=What+is+the+speed+of+the+satellite+that+is+in+orbit%3F&oq=What+is+the+speed+of+the+satellite+that+is+in+orbit%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3...89710.89710.0.91533.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0....0.cigObm9FHMw)

What is the momentum of the satellite? Mass * Velocity

28,000 km/hr = 7,777.78 m/s

Momentum = 7,777.78 m/s * 500 kg = 3,888,890 kg * m /s

Conservation of Momentum dictates that in order to change the movement of the satellite, it must be conserved

Thus

Vo = Original Satellite Velocity m/s
Mo = Original Satellite mass with propellant kg

Vs = Final Satellite Velocity m/s
Vp = Final propellant Velocity m/s

Ms = Final Satellite Mass kg
Mp = Final propellant Mass kg

Mo*Vo = Vs*Ms + Vp*Mp

where V has an x, y z component (i,j,k)


OK, show me how much "propellant" is needed to change the direction of the satellite?

Good night, will check back tomorrow
I'm not sure I understand the question.  Why does the change in momentum of the satellite matter?

Mike
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

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mike247

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 03:29:56 PM »
You can use whatever assumptions you like. Assume that the satellite is of course by 100 Km from its place and you need to make it go their again.

If 100 is to much for you, try 10 Km and if that is too much for you try 1 Km and if that is too much for you try 100 meters and if that is too much for you, then you have to agree with me that HUSTON we have a problem.

I'm am giving you a medium size satellite at 500 Kg. remember your total mass is just 500 Kg and you are moving at over 7000 m/s.

Lets make it even simpler, you have to move the satellite 10 meters in the y direction, that is up

Satellite is moving around the earth, its velocity is 7000m/s in the x direction

There is a force of gravity in the z direction accelerating it towards the earth (this is what keeps it in orbit)

If we want to move it 200m in the y direction, we need to apply a force
Lets accelerate it 100m then decelerate it 100m

The satellites current y axis velocity is 0

d = vi * t + 1/2 * a * t^2

vi= 0
d = 100m
lets say we want to do over the course of an hour
so t = 3600 seconds

we can solve for a

acceleration required = 1/64800 m/s^2

Knowing the acceration required we can work out the force needed

f = ma
f = 500kg * 1/64800 m/s^2
f = 5/648 newtons of force

We will also need to stop our satellite so we can double this force as total amount required

f = 10/648 newtons


So we know the force required, now lets assume our satellite has a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33 rocket attached (simply because I can easily find out the thrust specific fuel consumption value for this rocket easily

which is 308 g/kn.s

so lets convert our force into kn, 10/648 = 0.015, so 0.000015 kn

Now lets plug in the numbers

0.000015 * 308 * 7200 = 33.2 grams of fuel for this specific engine

« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 03:31:33 PM by mike247 »

Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 03:42:39 PM »
I will even be nice to you, you can solve in a two dimensional only, no z-axis
Lets make it even simpler, you have to move the satellite 10 meters in the y direction, that is up
Which is it? Do you want a move of 10 m perpendicular to the satellite velocity vector at a constant altitude? Or do you want an altitude change of 10 m? Your coordinate system is unclear.

?

ER22

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 04:10:11 PM »
Change the direction how much?

A teeny amount of propellent will change its direction a teeny bit, a lot will change it a lot

problem solved

Do the math, I have given everything to you.

If I solve it you will say that my assumptions are wrong, so you solve it and post the results.

It's time to put up or shut up.

I will even be nice to you, you can solve in a two dimensional only, no z-axis

Good Night!

Are you trying to posit that satellites can't exist?
And yet on other threads you post pictures from the ISS.

Just keep moving them goal posts.
Show me a Flat Earth map that works.

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Macarios

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2018, 10:34:07 PM »
You can use whatever assumptions you like. Assume that the satellite is of course by 100 Km from its place and you need to make it go their again.

If 100 is to much for you, try 10 Km and if that is too much for you try 1 Km and if that is too much for you try 100 meters and if that is too much for you, then you have to agree with me that HUSTON we have a problem.

I'm am giving you a medium size satellite at 500 Kg. remember your total mass is just 500 Kg and you are moving at over 7000 m/s.

Lets make it even simpler, you have to move the satellite 10 meters in the y direction, that is up

Satellite is moving around the earth, its velocity is 7000m/s in the x direction

There is a force of gravity in the z direction accelerating it towards the earth (this is what keeps it in orbit)

If we want to move it 200m in the y direction, we need to apply a force
Lets accelerate it 100m then decelerate it 100m

The satellites current y axis velocity is 0

d = vi * t + 1/2 * a * t^2

vi= 0
d = 100m
lets say we want to do over the course of an hour
so t = 3600 seconds

we can solve for a

acceleration required = 1/64800 m/s^2

Knowing the acceration required we can work out the force needed

f = ma
f = 500kg * 1/64800 m/s^2
f = 5/648 newtons of force

We will also need to stop our satellite so we can double this force as total amount required

f = 10/648 newtons


So we know the force required, now lets assume our satellite has a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33 rocket attached (simply because I can easily find out the thrust specific fuel consumption value for this rocket easily

which is 308 g/kn.s

so lets convert our force into kn, 10/648 = 0.015, so 0.000015 kn

Now lets plug in the numbers

0.000015 * 308 * 7200 = 33.2 grams of fuel for this specific engine

Great job. Thanks.

I also admire one more thing here:
Some people don't know, and don't care.
Others don't know, but ask.
Instead of bashing those who ask, let's help them understand.
They ask because they want to know, and I respect that.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 10:38:40 PM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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wise

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2018, 11:00:53 PM »
What does cause to transmit the mass attraction between two far objects in a vacuum space?
He (somebody) is a troll homo playing role of girl.

(Look at the date)

WERERPC LEVEL2

DAY 1 ENDS IN (ESTIMATED):


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Macarios

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2018, 11:15:30 PM »
What does cause to transmit the mass attraction between two far objects in a vacuum space?

Same as electrostatic or magnetic attraction. Force fields.

On the other hand, General Relativity explains attraction forces by distortion of space-time continuum.

Unless your Ignore List prevents you from seeing the answer. :-)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 11:23:35 PM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 04:56:05 AM »
You can use whatever assumptions you like. Assume that the satellite is of course by 100 Km from its place and you need to make it go their again.

If 100 is to much for you, try 10 Km and if that is too much for you try 1 Km and if that is too much for you try 100 meters and if that is too much for you, then you have to agree with me that HUSTON we have a problem.

I'm am giving you a medium size satellite at 500 Kg. remember your total mass is just 500 Kg and you are moving at over 7000 m/s.

Lets make it even simpler, you have to move the satellite 10 meters in the y direction, that is up

Satellite is moving around the earth, its velocity is 7000m/s in the x direction

There is a force of gravity in the z direction accelerating it towards the earth (this is what keeps it in orbit)

If we want to move it 200m in the y direction, we need to apply a force
Lets accelerate it 100m then decelerate it 100m

The satellites current y axis velocity is 0

d = vi * t + 1/2 * a * t^2

vi= 0
d = 100m
lets say we want to do over the course of an hour
so t = 3600 seconds

we can solve for a

acceleration required = 1/64800 m/s^2

Knowing the acceration required we can work out the force needed

f = ma
f = 500kg * 1/64800 m/s^2
f = 5/648 newtons of force

We will also need to stop our satellite so we can double this force as total amount required

f = 10/648 newtons


So we know the force required, now lets assume our satellite has a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33 rocket attached (simply because I can easily find out the thrust specific fuel consumption value for this rocket easily

which is 308 g/kn.s

so lets convert our force into kn, 10/648 = 0.015, so 0.000015 kn

Now lets plug in the numbers

0.000015 * 308 * 7200 = 33.2 grams of fuel for this specific engine

Not bad, but I would have used conservation of energy, much simpler.

Give me 10 minutes so I can calculate the results.

To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 05:06:56 AM »
Assuming the website is correct

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/The-Value-of-g

At 2,000km the gravity is m/s^2

The Potential Energy needed to lift a 500 kg satellite is equal to

PE = mgh or (500 kg) (7.33 m/s^2) (100 m) = 366,500 J or 366.5 kJ

The satellite must have a velocity of

366,500 J = (1/2) (500) V^2

or V = 38.28 m/s

Do we agree ?
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 05:19:09 AM »
Assuming the website is correct

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/The-Value-of-g

At 2,000km the gravity is m/s^2

The Potential Energy needed to lift a 500 kg satellite is equal to

PE = mgh or (500 kg) (7.33 m/s^2) (100 m) = 366,500 J or 366.5 kJ

The satellite must have a velocity of

366,500 J = (1/2) (500) V^2

or V = 38.28 m/s

Do we agree ?

So the Force needed to push the satellite would be

E = F * distance

366,500 = F * 100

F = 366.5 Newtons or 0.3665 kN

Based on your calculations, you will need

.3665 * 308 * 7200 = 812,750 grams of fuel for this specific engine

much more than 33.2 grams that you have stated.

What about the oxygen needed?

An air to fuel ratio of 14 to 1 would be accountable, don't you agree, as listed in the below website

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/airfuel_ratio_tuning_rich_vs_lean

I will let you do the calculation,

NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.


To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

*

Macarios

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 05:58:42 AM »
Assuming the website is correct

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/The-Value-of-g

At 2,000km the gravity is m/s^2

The Potential Energy needed to lift a 500 kg satellite is equal to

PE = mgh or (500 kg) (7.33 m/s^2) (100 m) = 366,500 J or 366.5 kJ

The satellite must have a velocity of

366,500 J = (1/2) (500) V^2

or V = 38.28 m/s

Do we agree ?

So the Force needed to push the satellite would be

E = F * distance

366,500 = F * 100

F = 366.5 Newtons or 0.3665 kN

Based on your calculations, you will need

.3665 * 308 * 7200 = 812,750 grams of fuel for this specific engine

much more than 33.2 grams that you have stated.

What about the oxygen needed?

An air to fuel ratio of 14 to 1 would be accountable, don't you agree, as listed in the below website

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/airfuel_ratio_tuning_rich_vs_lean

I will let you do the calculation,

NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.

Distance?

At the same altitude potential energy of the satellite doesn't change.
Why is energy in your calculation?

Distance depends on speed and time, speed depends on initial speed, acceleration and time.
While calculating distance, how fast you wanted the satellite to get there?

And why would you need to constantly push the satellite all the way?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 05:59:53 AM »
My mistake,

you made this for 200 meters, not 100 meters that I did.

So the values will be different

PE = mgh or (500 kg) (7.33 m/s^2) (200 m) = 733,000 J or 733 kJ

The satellite must have a velocity of

733,000 J = (1/2) (500) V^2

or V = 54.15 m/s

E = F * distance

733,000 = F * 200

F = 3665 Newtons or 3.665 kN

Based on your calculations, you will need

3.665 * 308 * 7200 = 8,127,504 grams of fuel for this specific engine

much more than 33.2 grams that you have stated.


To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

*

InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 06:04:31 AM »
Assuming the website is correct

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/The-Value-of-g

At 2,000km the gravity is m/s^2

The Potential Energy needed to lift a 500 kg satellite is equal to

PE = mgh or (500 kg) (7.33 m/s^2) (100 m) = 366,500 J or 366.5 kJ

The satellite must have a velocity of

366,500 J = (1/2) (500) V^2

or V = 38.28 m/s

Do we agree ?

So the Force needed to push the satellite would be

E = F * distance

366,500 = F * 100

F = 366.5 Newtons or 0.3665 kN

Based on your calculations, you will need

.3665 * 308 * 7200 = 812,750 grams of fuel for this specific engine

much more than 33.2 grams that you have stated.

What about the oxygen needed?

An air to fuel ratio of 14 to 1 would be accountable, don't you agree, as listed in the below website

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/airfuel_ratio_tuning_rich_vs_lean

I will let you do the calculation,

NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.

Distance?

At the same altitude potential energy of the satellite doesn't change.
Why is energy in your calculation?

Distance depends on speed and time, speed depends on initial speed, acceleration and time.
While calculating distance, how fast you wanted the satellite to get there?

And why would you need to constantly push the satellite all the way?

Yes distance in the y direction that is at a higher orbit.

Quote
At the same altitude potential energy of the satellite doesn't change.
WTF

The altitude changes by 200 meters higher up orbit. The only reason that somebody would want to correct the satellite position is do to orbit failure. The satellites are fixed with respect travel path, they don't change, because if they did, then you would need to re-tune your satellite dish every time their was a change in path
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

*

markjo

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 06:15:13 AM »
NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.
Maybe you should have referenced a source that deals with rocket engines instead of automobile engines.

That is unless you intend to drive your satellite to its new orbit.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 06:16:44 AM »
NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.
Maybe you should have referenced a source that deals with rocket engines instead of automobile engines.

That is unless you intend to drive your satellite to its new orbit.

I did not plan to drive to the new orbit, but I was counting on some of NASA's fairy dust to get me there.
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

*

InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 06:20:20 AM »
See you tomorrow, have to do out for diner and eat some kokoretsi... If you are not Greek, you will not understand what it is and I would not ask if I was you.
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

*

markjo

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2018, 06:22:48 AM »
NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.
Maybe you should have referenced a source that deals with rocket engines instead of automobile engines.

That is unless you intend to drive your satellite to its new orbit.

I did not plan to drive to the new orbit, but I was counting on some of NASA's fairy dust to get me there.
Then maybe you should start with everyone's favorite wiki instead of turbobygarrett.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_maneuver
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

InFlatEarth

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2018, 06:25:09 AM »
NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.
Maybe you should have referenced a source that deals with rocket engines instead of automobile engines.

That is unless you intend to drive your satellite to its new orbit.

I did not plan to drive to the new orbit, but I was counting on some of NASA's fairy dust to get me there.
Then maybe you should start with everyone's favorite wiki instead of turbobygarrett.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_maneuver

I really have to go, but I could not resist one more post.

Wikipedia, is a great source for information, especially if your with NASA... ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  :o
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

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rvlvr

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2018, 07:25:12 AM »
I'll barge in and say I'd like to try kokoretsi. It looks good.

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Macarios

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2018, 07:49:27 AM »
NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.
Maybe you should have referenced a source that deals with rocket engines instead of automobile engines.

That is unless you intend to drive your satellite to its new orbit.

I did not plan to drive to the new orbit, but I was counting on some of NASA's fairy dust to get me there.
Then maybe you should start with everyone's favorite wiki instead of turbobygarrett.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_maneuver

I really have to go, but I could not resist one more post.

Wikipedia, is a great source for information, especially if your with NASA... ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  :o

Whenever you doubt something, you can check elsewhere.

Wiki was seen by millions of people daily.
Do you think those people would expose errors?
It hink they gladly would.
They do, when there are some.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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markjo

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2018, 11:33:17 AM »
NOTE, back when I went to school, I remember the air to fuel ratio to be around 1.8 , I don't know where they get the 14 to 1 ratio today.
Maybe you should have referenced a source that deals with rocket engines instead of automobile engines.

That is unless you intend to drive your satellite to its new orbit.

I did not plan to drive to the new orbit, but I was counting on some of NASA's fairy dust to get me there.
Then maybe you should start with everyone's favorite wiki instead of turbobygarrett.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_maneuver

I really have to go, but I could not resist one more post.

Wikipedia, is a great source for information, especially if your with NASA... ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  :o
Yeah, I guess it isn't so good for information if you're an FE'er.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2018, 01:49:56 PM »
Okay.  This took me a bit because I'll admit I'm in a bit over my head here.  I'm not a professional mathematician or physicist and it's been 25 years since I've had a course in either, and orbital mechanics is way beyond anything I did then.  But here goes:

If I missed an orbital altitude I apologize, but I started with 2000 km.  The orbital velocity at 2000 km is 6900 m/s. 
v=sqrt(3.986*10^14 /8.371*10^6) - this is G*Mass of Earth/ Radius of orbit + Radius of Earth.

You wanted to change to orbit by 200 km, but weren't very specific, so since I was in over my head anyway, I decided on the simplest maneuver, a Hohmann Transfer. 

The orbital velocity of the desired orbit is 6800 m/s, using the same equation above, but with an additional 200 km added to the radius.

The Hohmann Transfer uses an elliptical orbit that shares a perigee with the first orbit and an apogee with the second orbit. 

We need the period of the transfer orbit to calculate the correct velocity, and the orbital period of the transfer orbit (Pt)=sqrt(4pi^2*a^3/G*Mass of Earth) where a=the semi major axis of the ellipse we're using, in this case, 8471 km. 

Plug in the numbers and the period of the transfer orbit is 7759.15 seconds.

The velocity we need to reach at perigee, where we enter the transfer orbit is calculated vp=(2pi*a/Pt)*sqrt((2a/radius of the first orbit)-1

After running numbers, the velocity is 6941.10 m/s. 

The difference between the current orbital velocity (6900 m/s) and the transfer velocity at perigee (6941.10 m/s) is called the delta V, and is the change in velocity that we need to achieve the transfer orbit.

The velocity of the transfer orbit at apogee (using the same velocity equation above but with radius of the final orbit instead of the first one) is 6779.13 m/s.

The difference between the target orbit velocity (6800 m/s) and the transfer orbit velocity at apogee (6779.13 m/s) is the delta V needed to adjust from the transfer orbit into the final orbit.

The first delta V is 41.10 m/s, and the second is 20.87 m/s.

Delta V is proportional to the logarithm of the fueled to empty mass ratio and to the specific impulse of the engine. 

This was more than I wanted to do, so I used a Delta V calculator at http://www.strout.net/info/science/delta-v/intro.html to do the work for me.

I wasn't sure of the specific impulse of satellite thrusters, so a little digging led me to https://engineering.purdue.edu/~propulsi/propulsion/rockets/satellites.html

I used your 500kg for the mass of the satellite, ballparked 300 sec as reasonably within range from the thruster specs on Purdue's page, and then reduced mass for the post-burn entry until I got the delta-v I needed. 

The result was just under 7 kg of fuel, for the first maneuver and just over 3.5 kg for the second, for a total fuel consumption of 10.5 kg of fuel.  I should probably have adjusted the satellite's mass down to account for the missing fuel after the first burn, but it probably won't amount to too much. 

10.5 kg seemed high to me, but in actuality, the approximately 62 m/s delta-v we needed for our maneuver is a bit more than a year's worth of typical station keeping for a satellite, depending on its orbit.  10-11 kg every year doesn't seem that high to me as a lay person, but I admit I'm well out of my depth here.

If I made any errors, I apologize and will happily take any criticism and make corrections as necessary.  Like I said earlier, I'm in over my head and did the best I could in my first attempt at orbital maneuvers.  Hopefully I get a passing grade.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 04:43:02 AM by ItsRoundIPromise »

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mike247

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Re: Satellite Movement in Space
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2018, 01:59:30 PM »
I should clarify, my calculation was to move the satellite 200m to the left or right, not change its altitude (I said the z axis was the force of gravity, so up or down)

I simplified it by not factoring in the effect on orbit as we are only moving 200m over a fairly short period of time. While this isnt technically correct over small distances and small time spans its accurate enough

Doing it this way means we don't have to worry about how fast its going or its altitude as it will have an initial velocity of 0 in the horizontal axis we are moving it which makes the math a lot easier

He said I could make any assumptions I wanted as long as they were accurate, and he wanted to know how much propellant would be required to move a satellite in space (which is a stupid question because the answer is any amount given enough acceleration out the back of the engine and a long enough time span)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 02:03:00 PM by mike247 »