For the SE - Can an object cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area?

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Instead of writing your garbage, how about you take a photo of the shadow of a solid with of a single light source and show that its shadow is smaller than its cross section area that is perpendicular?

Simple question, deserves a simple photo!
I agree. Disappointing that no responses so far have been the simple photo you asked for.

Cloudy here today ... I'll be happy to provide a photo taken in sunlight when it clears.
Maybe because that photo is not all that simple?

It is not easy to get a convincing photo of the sun causing a shadow with clear umbra smaller than the object for a few reasons.
  • The sun's rays come from a source with a quite small angular size, typically 0.53°. This is equivalent to smaller than 3 cm at 3 m.
    As a result, even when the shadow is striking normal to a surface, the umbra is little smaller than the object.

  • In daylight there is so much scattered daylight that even the umbra is not very dark,
Still, even though there are bright clouds around, I'll give it a go.


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EvolvedMantisShrimp

  • 928
  • Physical Comedian
Instead of writing your garbage, how about you take a photo of the shadow of a solid with of a single light source and show that its shadow is smaller than its cross section area that is perpendicular?

Simple question, deserves a simple photo!
I agree. Disappointing that no responses so far have been the simple photo you asked for.

Cloudy here today ... I'll be happy to provide a photo taken in sunlight when it clears.
Maybe because that photo is not all that simple?

It is not easy to get a convincing photo of the sun causing a shadow with clear umbra smaller than the object for a few reasons.
  • The sun's rays come from a source with a quite small angular size, typically 0.53°. This is equivalent to smaller than 3 cm at 3 m.
    As a result, even when the shadow is striking normal to a surface, the umbra is little smaller than the object.

  • In daylight there is so much scattered daylight that even the umbra is not very dark,
Still, even though there are bright clouds around, I'll give it a go.

It would be easiest to check at a zenith: a place and a time when the Sun is directly overhead. Currently, the Sun's zenith is at a latitude of 17° 26' S.
Nullius in Verba

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ER22

  • 393
Show photo please!

I understand your frustration.
It is a good question.

I think the biggest problem in creating the photo you are looking for
Is the distance between the earth and the object casting the shadow.

If a moon sized object was halfway to the sun, no shadow on earth.
If the moon sized object was 10 ft off the ground, shadow about the same size as moon

Somewhere in between should give you a shadow (Umbra, not penumbra)
That is smaller than the size of the moon.

I'm not sure you can recreate that on the surface of the earth.
Great mind exercise though, thanks.
Show me a Flat Earth map that works.

Here's what you asked for:



First two photos - light source close to screen, light source at distance from screen
Subsequent photos - US Lincoln Cent held by tweezers shown at varying distances from screen. Second cent attached to screen for size comparison.

Q: Can an object cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area?
A: Yes.

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ER22

  • 393
Excellent, C&C
My guess the complaints will be:

1)  It didn't involve the sun
2)  You used a spot light while the sun shines in all directions.
(Unless you're talking about a flat earth sun)
3)  Can't really see what you are holding with the tweezers
(Could be a magic lens or something)


Show me a Flat Earth map that works.

1) and 2) OP didn't ask about the Sun,  it asked about a single light source.

3) I can provide higher res images where the cent is more obvious.

But, yes, I imagine there will be all sorts of arguments about something or other.

OP did talk about the moon though, they were hinting that the moon shouldn't be able to cast a shadow smaller than itself.


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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Still, even though there are bright clouds around, I'll give it a go.

It would be easiest to check at a zenith: a place and a time when the Sun is directly overhead. Currently, the Sun's zenith is at a latitude of 17° 26' S.
Yes, the clouds cleared and I made a better "shadow objects" (a 127 mm coarse carbide sanding disc) and mounted it about 2.2 m high.

Here are the results of the shadow cast by the disc in direct sunlight:

Shadow Disc Size = 127 mm
     
Shadow, Umbra Size = 108 mm

This is for the SE out there, can an object cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area from a single light source?

You might ask why?

Because the moon casted a shadow of only 70 miles in diameter last August in the eclipse. Since the moons diameter is supposedly 2000 miles, then, Huston we have a problem!!!!

But there will be a bunch of “scientist” out there, that will try to confuses everybody with mumbo jumbo, so let’s make it simple.

Instead of writing your garbage, how about you take a photo of the shadow of a solid with of a single light source and show that its shadow is smaller than its cross section area that is perpendicular?

Simple question, deserves a simple photo!
So the upshot to the smug OP author is that simple thought experiments, when examined, don't always give you the answer you've convinced yourself is correct.

Here's what you asked for:



First two photos - light source close to screen, light source at distance from screen
Subsequent photos - US Lincoln Cent held by tweezers shown at varying distances from screen. Second cent attached to screen for size comparison.

Q: Can an object cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area?
A: Yes.

NO, in the photos their are two light sources, the flashlight and the ambient light!
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

Here's what you asked for:



First two photos - light source close to screen, light source at distance from screen
Subsequent photos - US Lincoln Cent held by tweezers shown at varying distances from screen. Second cent attached to screen for size comparison.

Q: Can an object cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area?
A: Yes.

NO, in the photos their are two light sources, the flashlight and the ambient light!

Riiiight

Here's what you asked for:



First two photos - light source close to screen, light source at distance from screen
Subsequent photos - US Lincoln Cent held by tweezers shown at varying distances from screen. Second cent attached to screen for size comparison.

Q: Can an object cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area?
A: Yes.

NO, in the photos their are two light sources, the flashlight and the ambient light!

Riiiight

Are you blind?

Can you see the flashlight?
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

Here's what you asked for:



First two photos - light source close to screen, light source at distance from screen
Subsequent photos - US Lincoln Cent held by tweezers shown at varying distances from screen. Second cent attached to screen for size comparison.

Q: Can an object cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area?
A: Yes.

NO, in the photos their are two light sources, the flashlight and the ambient light!

Riiiight

Are you blind?

Can you see the flashlight?

I believe it's called Confirmation Bias.

Only information that can be used to confirm a belief is accepted. Everything else must be false, fake, incomplete, conspirational and or wrong.

Is the shadow of the coin created by the light from the flashlight smaller than the coin or not? Or the ambient light is encroaching on the shadow making it small?

Are you blind?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:32:08 AM by SpaceCadet »

Are you saying that ambient light do not have an effect on a shadow?

Also, the flashlight is a concentrated light beam and not an ambient light source like our sun in our solar system.

Why don't you do this experiment with sunlight and everything will be settled once and for all.

I think that this is reasonable request to ask, since the sun light is responsible of the moon's shadow
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

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rvlvr

  • 2148
You can easily conduct the same experiment with no ambient light, but as you are too afraid of the results, you choose not to.

You can easily conduct the same experiment with no ambient light, but as you are too afraid of the results, you choose not to.

You are too afraid to try it with ambient Sun light!
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
You can easily conduct the same experiment with no ambient light, but as you are too afraid of the results, you choose not to.

You are too afraid to try it with ambient Sun light!
You seem to have totally ignored these photos taken direct sunlight!

Yes, the clouds cleared and I made a better "shadow objects" (a 127 mm coarse carbide sanding disc) and mounted it about 2.2 m high.

Here are the results of the shadow cast by the disc in direct sunlight:

Shadow Disc Size = 127 mm
     
Shadow, Umbra Size = 108 mm

THose photos are the same scale and have a ruler included so that you can verify the width of the object and the umbra, the dark part of the shadow.
Now, will you finally admit that an object can cast a shadow smaller than its cross section area?

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boydster

  • Assistant to the Regional Manager
  • Planar Moderator
  • 17754
You can easily conduct the same experiment with no ambient light, but as you are too afraid of the results, you choose not to.

You are too afraid to try it with ambient Sun light!

Uh.... you missed one


Still, even though there are bright clouds around, I'll give it a go.

It would be easiest to check at a zenith: a place and a time when the Sun is directly overhead. Currently, the Sun's zenith is at a latitude of 17° 26' S.
Yes, the clouds cleared and I made a better "shadow objects" (a 127 mm coarse carbide sanding disc) and mounted it about 2.2 m high.

Here are the results of the shadow cast by the disc in direct sunlight:

Shadow Disc Size = 127 mm
     
Shadow, Umbra Size = 108 mm

Are you saying that ambient light do not have an effect on a shadow?

Also, the flashlight is a concentrated light beam and not an ambient light source like our sun in our solar system.

Why don't you do this experiment with sunlight and everything will be settled once and for all.

I think that this is reasonable request to ask, since the sun light is responsible of the moon's shadow

And the goalposts go running down the field. Your original request was this:

"Instead of writing your garbage, how about you take a photo of the shadow of a solid with of a single light source and show that its shadow is smaller than its cross section area that is perpendicular?"

Challenge met.

NO, in the photos their are two light sources, the flashlight and the ambient light!
Ah, the argument from nitpickery.

That's easy enough to play.

Please show that there are two light sources in the photo. Show that what you are calling ambient light is not multiple diffuse reflection from screen, table, and surrounding screens set up for photo.

Are you saying that ambient light do not have an effect on a shadow?

Also, the flashlight is a concentrated light beam and not an ambient light source like our sun in our solar system.

Why don't you do this experiment with sunlight and everything will be settled once and for all.

I think that this is reasonable request to ask, since the sun light is responsible of the moon's shadow

And the goalposts go running down the field. Your original request was this:

"Instead of writing your garbage, how about you take a photo of the shadow of a solid with of a single light source and show that its shadow is smaller than its cross section area that is perpendicular?"

Challenge met.

How? Flat Earthism is a belief. A strongly held belief. Inconvenient things like facts can't get in the way of belief. The goal posts must be shifted to ensure the facts can be conviniently ignored. "You didnt show me a picture to prove chocolates exist. You showed me a chocolate chip cookie. I am not interested in cookies. You haven't proved your case" ......and on and on

Here is an experiment you can try that may help.  The sun's diameter is 400x the moon but is also 400x more distant.  This results in both objects having the same angular size as seen from Earth.   We can simulate this effect with a couple of sheets of paper.  You do not need to use the number 400 as long as the ratio of diameter/distance is the same.  In other words, you can use a model of the sun that is twice the diameter of the moon and place it twice as far away.   So, cut a 10 inch circle out of yellow paper to represent the sun, and a 5 inch circle out of black paper to represent the moon.  Place the moon 10 feet away from you and the sun 20 ft away.  When viewed side by side, they will appear to be the same size.  Now, orientate yourself so that the moon just covers the suns disk.  This simulates a total solar eclipse.   Carefully move your head from side to side and note how far you have to move before any part of the yellow disk comes into view.   This represents the size of the moon's umbra.  You will see that the distance required is less than 5 inches because the umbra shadow requires that the entire disk of the sun is covered. 

Are you saying that ambient light do not have an effect on a shadow?
Are you saying that ambient light will affect the shadow in a way to produce light as bright as the single source?

Also, the flashlight is a concentrated light beam and not an ambient light source like our sun in our solar system.
First the sun is a single source, now it's an ambient light source? Which is it?

Why don't you do this experiment with sunlight and everything will be settled once and for all.
The OP question only asked about a single light source. It did not specify sunlight.

And since rabinoz did use sunlight, I suppose the matter is now settled once and for all.

(Why do I think it won't end here?)

I think that this is reasonable request to ask, since the sun light is responsible of the moon's shadow
But in your example, sunlight isn't the only light source. You've neglected that starlight and planetlight will also be present and will have an effect on the moon's shadow. (I know ... I was in the path of totality and clearly saw Venus and Mars and stars, so they were illuminating the "shadow"!)

So, cut a 10 inch circle out of yellow paper to represent the sun ...
Oh, but you've completely missed the point. The OP requests a single light source, not a piece of yellow paper! Watch as you're berated for not following the demands of the OP, and how silly you are for even suggesting it, and gee, how simple would it have been to just follow directions, can't you even do something that simple?

Welcome to the show.

So, cut a 10 inch circle out of yellow paper to represent the sun ...
Oh, but you've completely missed the point. The OP requests a single light source, not a piece of yellow paper! Watch as you're berated for not following the demands of the OP, and how silly you are for even suggesting it, and gee, how simple would it have been to just follow directions, can't you even do something that simple?

Welcome to the show.

But you also missed the point CnC. The OP isn't concerned with single, ambient or dodecahedriatic light sources. Fella only wants you to say "wow! You're right. How come I didn't see that. You are sooooo smart. Show me more of your knowledge oh great and powerful woken one!"

You can easily conduct the same experiment with no ambient light, but as you are too afraid of the results, you choose not to.

You are too afraid to try it with ambient Sun light!



Uh.... you missed one


Still, even though there are bright clouds around, I'll give it a go.

It would be easiest to check at a zenith: a place and a time when the Sun is directly overhead. Currently, the Sun's zenith is at a latitude of 17° 26' S.
Yes, the clouds cleared and I made a better "shadow objects" (a 127 mm coarse carbide sanding disc) and mounted it about 2.2 m high.

Here are the results of the shadow cast by the disc in direct sunlight:

Shadow Disc Size = 127 mm
     
Shadow, Umbra Size = 108 mm

OK, I said cross section area of the object.

Was the object 100% leveled or did it have an upper tilt and thus creating a smaller cross section area?

Second, their is still a lighter shadow around the dark shadow, thus having a greater radius.

In the August eclipse, where is the 2,000 miles lighter shadow of the moon on the earth?
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

You can easily conduct the same experiment with no ambient light, but as you are too afraid of the results, you choose not to.

You are too afraid to try it with ambient Sun light!



Uh.... you missed one


Still, even though there are bright clouds around, I'll give it a go.

It would be easiest to check at a zenith: a place and a time when the Sun is directly overhead. Currently, the Sun's zenith is at a latitude of 17° 26' S.
Yes, the clouds cleared and I made a better "shadow objects" (a 127 mm coarse carbide sanding disc) and mounted it about 2.2 m high.

Here are the results of the shadow cast by the disc in direct sunlight:

Shadow Disc Size = 127 mm
     
Shadow, Umbra Size = 108 mm

OK, I said cross section area of the object.

Was the object 100% leveled or did it have an upper tilt and thus creating a smaller cross section area?

Second, their is still a lighter shadow around the dark shadow, thus having a greater radius.

In the August eclipse, where is the 2,000 miles lighter shadow of the moon on the earth?
If it were tilted the shadow would be elliptical instead of circular.

The lighter shadow is still smaller than the object, (it's a bit less defined, but I see it as 120mm maximum) just not as small as the umbral shadow.

The lighter shadow was present in August.  Google "penumbra" and learn all about it!!

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Macarios

  • 2093
You can easily conduct the same experiment with no ambient light, but as you are too afraid of the results, you choose not to.

You are too afraid to try it with ambient Sun light!



Uh.... you missed one


Still, even though there are bright clouds around, I'll give it a go.

It would be easiest to check at a zenith: a place and a time when the Sun is directly overhead. Currently, the Sun's zenith is at a latitude of 17° 26' S.
Yes, the clouds cleared and I made a better "shadow objects" (a 127 mm coarse carbide sanding disc) and mounted it about 2.2 m high.

Here are the results of the shadow cast by the disc in direct sunlight:

Shadow Disc Size = 127 mm
     
Shadow, Umbra Size = 108 mm

OK, I said cross section area of the object.

Was the object 100% leveled or did it have an upper tilt and thus creating a smaller cross section area?

Second, their is still a lighter shadow around the dark shadow, thus having a greater radius.

In the August eclipse, where is the 2,000 miles lighter shadow of the moon on the earth?

Darker shadow is called "umbra".
Lighter shadow is called "penumbra".
I believe you know what it is.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

Quote
The lighter shadow is still smaller than the object, (it's a bit less defined, but I see it as 120mm maximum) just not as small as the umbral shadow.

The lighter shadow starts around the 8 mm and ends off the photo, which would make it at 130 mm, which is larger or the same size as the object, thus this photo does not prove your cause

To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun

Quote
Darker shadow is called "umbra".
Lighter shadow is called "penumbra".
I believe you know what it is.

And both are a shadow.

Where is the penumbra for the 2000 mile diameter of the Moon.
To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

The Truth Will Set You Free

Werner Von Braun