If you think gravity is a lie, how do you explain this?

Quote from: EvolvedMantisShrimp on January 27, 2018, 12:22:18 PM

major factors: the place the air enters, the pressure of the entering air, the coefficient of friction of the disk, the shape of the object and the mass of the object.

Micro-factors that may introduce chaotic components: imperfections in the disk, object and hemisphere, particulates in the air and vibrations transferred from outside the structure.

The place the air enters from, and the pressure it exerts, are basically fixed under denpressure.
The friction of the disc acts horizontally, the shape and mass of the object affect the degree of movement but away from the boundary will not alter vertical direction. The same can be said for those micro-factors; they might affect magnitude, but not direction save in an extreme boundary case.

Most important here is the first statement: "The place the air enters from, and the pressure it exerts, are basically fixed under denpressure." So simply create a set-up where they are designed to a) not be directly beneath the object, b) sufficient to actually impart force, you can adjust to create a distant border for the extreme boundary case, and you're done.

There is no randomness here, the factors are specific, predictable, and basically fixed. There is no situation where objects in that vicinity would go up sometimes and down others.

That's what I get for coming into the middle of a conversation. I thought you were talking about reality. Carry on.

Quote from: EvolvedMantisShrimp on January 27, 2018, 12:22:18 PM

major factors: the place the air enters, the pressure of the entering air, the coefficient of friction of the disk, the shape of the object and the mass of the object.

Micro-factors that may introduce chaotic components: imperfections in the disk, object and hemisphere, particulates in the air and vibrations transferred from outside the structure.

The place the air enters from, and the pressure it exerts, are basically fixed under denpressure.
The friction of the disc acts horizontally, the shape and mass of the object affect the degree of movement but away from the boundary will not alter vertical direction. The same can be said for those micro-factors; they might affect magnitude, but not direction save in an extreme boundary case.

Most important here is the first statement: "The place the air enters from, and the pressure it exerts, are basically fixed under denpressure." So simply create a set-up where they are designed to a) not be directly beneath the object, b) sufficient to actually impart force, you can adjust to create a distant border for the extreme boundary case, and you're done.

There is no randomness here, the factors are specific, predictable, and basically fixed. There is no situation where objects in that vicinity would go up sometimes and down others.

Denpressure is discredited rubbish on a similar level to Australia being located in the USA.

Simple question, in sealed box, filled with pure oxygen,  would 10 Helium atoms float or sink?

Same box, take out all the oxygen so it would be a pure vacuum, and them add the 10 Helium atoms, would they float or sink?

Answer, in the first case, Helium would float due to buoyancy, where as in the second one they would sink due to gravity. Thus buoyancy forces are stronger than gravity forces.

In a vacuum, everything would fall down at the same rate, because GOD made it that way!!!

If not, then please explain why the buoyancy forces are stronger than the gravitational forces!!!

Answer, in the first case, Helium would float due to buoyancy, where as in the second one they would sink due to gravity. Thus buoyancy forces are stronger than gravity forces.

In a vacuum, everything would fall down at the same rate, because GOD made it that way!!!

Buoyancy forces are direct consequence of gravity.
Air molecules are heavier than helium molecules and gravitation pulls them down harder, so air falls below and pushes helium up.

There is no proof that GOD wasn't the one who created things that way. He could easily do it.

BUT, the buoyancy forces can overcome gravity thus they have to be stronger.

Just because we have defined buoyancy to contain g, does not mean that their is something else in independent of g that we have not found yet, that dictates the force.

Simple question, in sealed box, filled with pure oxygen,  would 10 Helium atoms float or sink?

How big a box? And yes it matters because even in enclosures metres high, diffusion completely overrides buoyancy.
So the helium atoms would neither float no sink.
I can't find much written on experiments in a few minutes, but here is one paper,
DIFFUSION OF GASES IN AIR AND ITS AFFECT ON OXYGEN DEFICIENCY HAZARD ABATEMENT

Same box, take out all the oxygen so it would be a pure vacuum, and them add the 10 Helium atoms, would they float or sink?

Again they neither float or sink. At all temperatures gas molecules (here helium atoms) are in continual motion, with velocitits defined by the Maxwell-Boltzmann Distribution. For helium at 20°C the mean velocity is about 1245 m/s.
Hence those He atoms don't just sink to the bottom but bounce all around your box.

Answer, in the first case, Helium would float due to buoyancy, where as in the second one they would sink due to gravity. Thus buoyancy forces are stronger than gravity forces.

No, both incorrect. In both cases the helium is distributed over the whole box.

In a vacuum, everything would fall down at the same rate, because GOD made it that way!!!

Solid objects or liquids would "would fall down at the same rate" But, not for gases!

If not, then please explain why the buoyancy forces are stronger than the gravitational forces!!!

Nothing to explain. You initial premises were quite incorrect, so you need to learn about the kinetic theory of gases.
Looks like you'll have to find another proof.

Even in the atmosphere helium rises so slowly that there is enough turbulence to keep the fraction of helium constant up to about 100 km. Above that it gradually gets stripped away by the solar wind.

Lets make it this way.

You have a clear plastic container that has an inner volume of 2 liters. You place 1 liter of cooking oil in the container and then you place 1 liter of H2O. You take a mixer and you mix the liquids for 30 minutes. You let it sit overnight. The next morning you find that the oil is on the top and the water is on the bottom.

The buoyancy between the H2O and the Oil, created the separation and thus the Buoyancy forces are stronger than the gravitational forces.

Or am I wrong with this???

Air molecules are heavier than helium molecules . . .

What the hell is an 'air molecule'?

Quote from: Macarios on January 30, 2018, 01:57:30 AM

Air molecules are heavier than helium molecules . . .

What the hell is an 'air molecule'?

air molecules, my mistake it should have been air

Lets make it this way.

You have a clear plastic container that has an inner volume of 2 liters. You place 1 liter of cooking oil in the container and then you place 1 liter of H2O. You take a mixer and you mix the liquids for 30 minutes. You let it sit overnight. The next morning you find that the oil is on the top and the water is on the bottom.

The buoyancy between the H2O and the Oil, created the separation and thus the Buoyancy forces are stronger than the gravitational forces.

Or am I wrong with this???

You are not wrong.
Oil will float on top.
Water will be pulled down harder than oil.

Buoyancy forces are diference between weights of materials with diferent density.

Buoyancy forces are difference between weights of materials with different density.

Yes, and these buoyancy forces can overcome gravity, thus are stronger than gravity. Thus gravity is a week force when compared to buoyancy forces.

So how can these weak forces hold thing to the planet?

Lets make it this way.

You have a clear plastic container that has an inner volume of 2 liters. You place 1 liter of cooking oil in the container and then you place 1 liter of H₂O. You take a mixer and you mix the liquids for 30 minutes. You let it sit overnight. The next morning you find that the oil is on the top and the water is on the bottom.

The buoyancy between the H₂O and the Oil, created the separation and thus the Buoyancy forces are stronger than the gravitational forces.

Or am I wrong with this???

What is wrong with that is that buoyancy forces are caused by gravitational forces.

Old Archimedes hit the nail on the head, as it were with his:

Archimedes' principle states that the upward buoyant force that is exerted on a body immersed in a fluid, whether fully or partially submerged, is equal to the weight of the fluid that the body displaces and acts in the upward direction at the center of mass of the displaced fluid.

The weight of the fluid is caused by gravity, no gravity, no weight and no buoyancy.

I'd try to explain it further, but I must go as more important things call - like sleep!

Quote

Buoyancy forces are difference between weights of materials with different density.

Yes, and these buoyancy forces can overcome gravity, thus are stronger than gravity. Thus gravity is a week force when compared to buoyancy forces.

So how can these weak forces hold thing to the planet?

At 0 °C and normal sea level pressure a mole of gas occupies 22.4 liters, so a cubic meter of air has a mass of: 1000/22.4 × 0.02896 = 1.293 kg.
Cubic meter of helium is 0.179 kg.

Gravity simple pulls air harder, placing it below helium.

Helium didn't lose its weight simply because 1.293 kg of air slipped under it. Helium is still 0.179 kg.

No matter what you state, you can't overcome the fact that buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces. It is a fact. So my question is this, since they are stronger, then why is it impossible to state that the buoyancy forces is what keeps up on a Flat Earth, instead of Gravity. heavier items fall, lighter items rise do to buoyancy, gravity not needed.

No matter what you state, you can't overcome the fact that buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces. It is a fact. So my question is this, since they are stronger, then why is it impossible to state that the buoyancy forces is what keeps up on a Flat Earth, instead of Gravity. heavier items fall, lighter items rise do to buoyancy, gravity not needed.

While floating on water, buoyancy of wood is stronger than gravity of wood.
Why wood needs water for that?

The same is true with flog.

It is denser and heavier and thus is on the bottom of the atmosphere, where lighter gasses rise up.

The same is true with flog.

It is denser and heavier and thus is on the bottom of the atmosphere, where lighter gasses rise up.

Buoyancy of lighter gasses is stronger than gravity of lighter gasses.
Why they need wood or Earth's surface for that?

Buoyancy forces dictate if something sinks or rises. The same thing holds true for the ground. If the force down is greater than the force up, then it sinks. If the bond of the ground is stronger and can withstand the stress, then nothing happens, but if they are weaker, then the ground gives way and the object sinks.

It all has to do with shear stress, which is what buoyancy forces depend on. It's all the same, air, water and ground

Buoyancy forces dictate if something sinks or rises.
...

Sinks or rises in what?
Why it needs that "what" to sink or rise?

depends what your media is, are in in air, water or ground

depends what your media is, are in in air, water or ground

You are still not telling us why buoyancy needs media?

I recommend fluids 101

I recommend fluids 101

In physics, buoyancy or upthrust, is an upward force exerted by a fluid that opposes the weight of an immersed object.
In a column of fluid, pressure increases with depth as a result of the weight of the overlying fluid.

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy)

Or something like this?

No matter what you state, you can't overcome the fact that buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces. It is a fact.

No, it is not a fact!

Take a small weather balloon (described as a 350 g weather balloon) and inflate it with 1 m³ of helium.
It will have a buoyancy of about 630 grams greater than the weight of the balloon plus the helium.
If you like, you can say that in this case "buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces".

Take the same balloon and inflate it with the same volume of air and the balloon plus air now has a buoyancy of about 595 grams less than the weight of the balloon plus the air.
So in this case "buoyancy forces are weaker than gravitational forces".
In these calculations I have used: Air density = 1.225 kg/m³ and helium density = 0.17 kg/m³ at sea level and at 15°C.
And the balloon lifting capacity is from: Balloon Performance Calculator.

And toss a piece of softwood into water and it floats but toss a piece of ebony in and it will sink.
Buoyancy can easliy be greater than, equal to of less than gravitational forces.

So my question is this, since they are stronger, then why is it impossible to state that the buoyancy forces is what keeps up on a Flat Earth, instead of Gravity. heavier items fall, lighter items rise do to buoyancy, gravity not needed.

But, why do your "heavier items fall" if not for gravity?

You have never proved, or even really provided evidence, that "buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces".

But, gravity is certainly needed:

• The buoyancy force is the weight of the displaced fluid and the weight is gravity x mass.
  How do you even calculate buoyancy if there is no gravity? No gravity, no buoyancy!
  
  
• The direction of gravity is what defines up and down. If you do not have gravity what make buoyancy "up".

Buoyancy forces dictate if something sinks or rises.

Not just buoyancy forces.
      If the buoyancy force is less than the gravitational force (which we call weight) the object falls.
      If the buoyancy force is greater than the gravitational force the object rises.

The same thing holds true for the ground. If the force down is greater than the force up, then it sinks. If the bond of the ground is stronger and can withstand the stress, then nothing happens, but if they are weaker, then the ground gives way and the object sinks.

It all has to do with shear stress, which is what buoyancy forces depend on. It's all the same, air, water and ground

No buoyancy has nothing to do with shear stress. Solids can withstand shear forces, but fluids (gases and liquids) cannot withstand any static shear forces.

That is the definitive the separates solids from fluids. Read up on it in: Difference Between Solid, Liquid and Gas.

Buoyancy forces dictate if something sinks or rises. The same thing holds true for the ground. If the force down is greater than the force up, then it sinks. If the bond of the ground is stronger and can withstand the stress, then nothing happens, but if they are weaker, then the ground gives way and the object sinks.

It all has to do with shear stress, which is what buoyancy forces depend on. It's all the same, air, water and ground

Why would an object sink without gravity pulling it down? Why would a displaced fluid buoy an object without gravity pulling the fluid down?

How do you even imagine the concept of buoyancy without gravity?

No matter what you state, you can't overcome the fact that buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces. It is a fact. So my question is this, since they are stronger, then why is it impossible to state that the buoyancy forces is what keeps up on a Flat Earth, instead of Gravity. heavier items fall, lighter items rise do to buoyancy, gravity not needed.

"Buoyancy" is a result of gravity

If you mix oil and water in a zero-gravity environment they will not seperate without outside assistance.

Also a helium atom in 2 litres of air will neither float nor sink but just diffuse like the other air atoms in a zero-gravity environment.

Quote from: InFlatEarth on January 30, 2018, 04:40:48 AM

No matter what you state, you can't overcome the fact that buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces. It is a fact.

No, it is not a fact!

Take a small weather balloon (described as a 350 g weather balloon) and inflate it with 1 m³ of helium.
It will have a buoyancy of about 630 grams greater than the weight of the balloon plus the helium.
If you like, you can say that in this case "buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces".

Take the same balloon and inflate it with the same volume of air and the balloon plus air now has a buoyancy of about 595 grams less than the weight of the balloon plus the air.
So in this case "buoyancy forces are weaker than gravitational forces".
In these calculations I have used: Air density = 1.225 kg/m³ and helium density = 0.17 kg/m³ at sea level and at 15°C.
And the balloon lifting capacity is from: Balloon Performance Calculator.

And toss a piece of softwood into water and it floats but toss a piece of ebony in and it will sink.
Buoyancy can easliy be greater than, equal to of less than gravitational forces.

Quote from: InFlatEarth

So my question is this, since they are stronger, then why is it impossible to state that the buoyancy forces is what keeps up on a Flat Earth, instead of Gravity. heavier items fall, lighter items rise do to buoyancy, gravity not needed.

But, why do your "heavier items fall" if not for gravity?

You have never proved, or even really provided evidence, that "buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces".

But, gravity is certainly needed:

• The buoyancy force is the weight of the displaced fluid and the weight is gravity x mass.
  How do you even calculate buoyancy if there is no gravity? No gravity, no buoyancy!
  
  
• The direction of gravity is what defines up and down. If you do not have gravity what make buoyancy "up".

In this example, if you place both balloons in a vacuum chamber will they lift or fall?

Quote from: rabinoz on January 30, 2018, 06:57:15 PM

Quote from: InFlatEarth on January 30, 2018, 04:40:48 AM

No matter what you state, you can't overcome the fact that buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces. It is a fact.

No, it is not a fact!

Take a small weather balloon (described as a 350 g weather balloon) and inflate it with 1 m³ of helium.
It will have a buoyancy of about 630 grams greater than the weight of the balloon plus the helium.
If you like, you can say that in this case "buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces".

Take the same balloon and inflate it with the same volume of air and the balloon plus air now has a buoyancy of about 595 grams less than the weight of the balloon plus the air.
So in this case "buoyancy forces are weaker than gravitational forces".
In these calculations I have used: Air density = 1.225 kg/m³ and helium density = 0.17 kg/m³ at sea level and at 15°C.
And the balloon lifting capacity is from: Balloon Performance Calculator.

And toss a piece of softwood into water and it floats but toss a piece of ebony in and it will sink.
Buoyancy can easliy be greater than, equal to of less than gravitational forces.

Quote from: InFlatEarth

So my question is this, since they are stronger, then why is it impossible to state that the buoyancy forces is what keeps up on a Flat Earth, instead of Gravity. heavier items fall, lighter items rise do to buoyancy, gravity not needed.

But, why do your "heavier items fall" if not for gravity?

You have never proved, or even really provided evidence, that "buoyancy forces are stronger than gravitational forces".

But, gravity is certainly needed:

• The buoyancy force is the weight of the displaced fluid and the weight is gravity x mass.
  How do you even calculate buoyancy if there is no gravity? No gravity, no buoyancy!
  
  
• The direction of gravity is what defines up and down. If you do not have gravity what make buoyancy "up".

In this example, if you place both balloons in a vacuum chamber will they lift or fall?

They'd both burst at the pressure equivalent of about 27,600 m altitude.
But, if the balloons were both of some hypothetical material that would not stretch or burst they would both fall.
There could be no buoyancy, because buoyancy is just the weight of displaced fluid (be it gas of liquid).

They'd both burst at the pressure equivalent of about 27,600 m altitude.
But, if the balloons were both of some hypothetical material that would not stretch or burst they would both fall.
There could be no buoyancy, because buoyancy is just the weight of displaced fluid (be it gas of liquid).

and this "weight of displaced fluid " is much stronger than gravity.

We agree!

Thank you for proving my point!