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What do you flatties have against this man?

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Pizza Planet

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What do you flatties have against this man?
« on: December 18, 2017, 11:30:53 PM »
Gustave-Gaspard Coriolis

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Gustave-Gaspard-Coriolis

Why do you outright dismiss him? How were his findings flawed?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 11:47:56 PM by Pizza Planet »
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Bullwinkle

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2017, 08:19:53 PM »
Quote from: Pizza Planet on December 18, 2017, 11:30:53 PM

Why do you outright dismiss him?


You are assuming facts not in evidence.
You have not established that he has been outright dismissed.


Quote from: Pizza Planet on December 18, 2017, 11:30:53 PM

How were his findings flawed?


Describe his findings. Present a starting point for discussion.

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rabinoz

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 08:35:10 PM »
Usually just the mention of "Coriolis Effect" is enough to get all sorts of comments about bathtubs, sinks, cyclones and hurricanes.
Just search previous posts - adding "Paris Gun" might winnow out some of jroa's sidetracking efforts.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2017, 10:56:36 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on December 19, 2017, 08:35:10 PM
Usually just the mention of "Coriolis Effect" is enough to get all sorts of comments about bathtubs, sinks, cyclones and hurricanes.

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rabinoz

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM »
Since there seems to be no counter-argument, I assume that we can now take it that the rotation of the Earth is proven by the Coriolis effect and its "mate" the Eötvös effect.

The Eötvös effect is the apparent variation in g due to West-to-East vs East-to-West motion. Here is a video demonstrating the Eötvös effect in an aircraft.
:

Flat Earth vs Globe - The Eötvös effect observed in aircraft - how does it affect Gravity?, Wolfie6020.

Since a rotating flat earth would be quite illogical and still would not explain the Coriolis effect or the Eötvös effect this also seems to prove that the earth cannot be flat, so is presumably a Globe.

Any objections or counter-arguments? “Speak now, or forever hold your peace,” as they say.

<< a few additions and corrections >>

« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 01:54:32 PM by rabinoz »
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narcberry

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 01:34:59 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM
presumably a Globe.

Don't you mean an egg? Isn't that the actual round earth theory, somehow an egg flying through space is more scientifically substantive than a giant turtle. You guys make me laugh.
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JackBlack

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 01:38:44 PM »
Quote from: narcberry on December 20, 2017, 01:34:59 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM
presumably a Globe.

Don't you mean an egg? Isn't that the actual round earth theory, somehow an egg flying through space is more scientifically substantive than a giant turtle. You guys make me laugh.
No. Eggs are asymmetric prolate spheroids.
Earth is an asymmetric oblate spheroid.
Additionally, eggs consist of a shell, a membrane, a white, another membrane and a yolk.
That is nothing like Earth.

Perhaps you should try focusing on what people have said rather than pathetic strawmen of it.

Yes, Earth being an egg flying through space would be ridiculous, but you are the only one here suggesting it.
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narcberry

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 01:40:02 PM »
Quote from: JackBlack on December 20, 2017, 01:38:44 PM
Additionally, eggs consist of a shell, a membrane, a white, another membrane and a yolk.

Can you please add this to the FAQ?
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Slemon

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM »
Coriolis has a whole host of explanations under FET (DET and celestial gears are the main ones), Eotvos is the interesting argument.

The relationship between a horizontal velocity and a vertical force only really makes sense if you're on a non-planar surface. For those that don't have time to watch the video, the idea is basically the centrifugal force caused by the Earth's rotation (that acts in the opposite direction to gravity) is increased when you travel in the same direction as it, meaning the downwards force of gravity appears to lessen.
A rotating disc wouldn't explain this; the force of that rotation would push you out, not up. There's no obvious way to link travel direction to vertical force without some 3-D object like a globe.
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Quote from: Crouton on December 02, 2022, 08:48:03 AM
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!
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JackBlack

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 01:50:18 PM »
Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM
Coriolis has a whole host of explanations under FET (DET and celestial gears are the main ones)
None of which work, hence no actual explanations.

Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM
The relationship between a horizontal velocity and a vertical force only really makes sense if you're on a non-planar surface.
Or with some magic mechanism, like moving with the magic fictional celestial gears resulting in your weight decreasing.
Sure it makes no sense, but most FE "explanations" don't.
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narcberry

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 01:54:38 PM »
Quote from: JackBlack on December 20, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
most FE "explanations" don't.

Strawman
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rabinoz

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2017, 02:08:17 PM »
Quote from: narcberry on December 20, 2017, 01:34:59 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM
presumably a Globe.
Don't you mean an egg? Isn't that the actual round earth theory, somehow an egg flying through space is more scientifically substantive than a giant turtle. You guys make me laugh.
You must have strange eggs at your place! Our eggs look like this:

An egg to instruct narcberry on some simple objects he might meet if he ever ventures into the real world.

If the following picture looks like a egg to you
;D I seriously suggest that you get to your ophthalmologist ASAP - a detached retina is a distinct possibility! ;D

View of the Earth as seen by the Apollo 17 crew -- astronaut Eugene A. Cernan, commander;
astronaut Ronald E. Evans, command module pilot; and scientist-astronaut Harrison H. Schmitt,
lunar module pilot -- traveling toward the moon. This translunar coast photograph extends
from the Mediterranean Sea area to the Antarctica South polar ice cap.
This is the first time the Apollo trajectory made it possible to photograph the South polar ice cap.
Note the heavy cloud cover in the Southern Hemisphere.
Almost the entire coastline of Africa is clearly visible.
The Arabian Peninsula can be seen at the Northeastern edge of Africa.
The large island off the coast of Africa is the Malagasy Republic.
The Asian mainland is on the horizon toward the Northeast.

Image Credit: NASA

This sure is the place to come for entertainment and narcberry's claims are up there with the best.

Carry on carrying on!
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rabinoz

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 02:20:23 PM »
Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM
Coriolis has a whole host of explanations under FET (DET and celestial gears are the main ones),
Please explain how either DET, celestial gears or Mach's principle (in case you have looked at Ski's posts) could possible explain the Coriolis effect.

Quote from: Jane
Eotvos is the interesting argument.

The relationship between a horizontal velocity and a vertical force only really makes sense if you're on a non-planar surface.

For those that don't have time to watch the video, the idea is basically the centrifugal force caused by the Earth's rotation (that acts in the opposite direction to gravity) is increased when you travel in the same direction as it, meaning the downwards force of gravity appears to lessen.
A rotating disc wouldn't explain this; the force of that rotation would push you out, not up. There's no obvious way to link travel direction to vertical force without some 3-D object like a globe.
Yes, you could find out more in, Flat Earth Debate / Re: Eötvös effect « Message by rabinoz on June 05, 2017, 08:52:35 AM » a reply to one of your own posts, I might add.
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narcberry

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 02:24:13 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 02:08:17 PM
Image Credit: NASA

I found your problem
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Slemon

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 02:29:19 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 02:20:23 PM
Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM
Coriolis has a whole host of explanations under FET (DET and celestial gears are the main ones),
Please explain how either DET, celestial gears or Mach's principle (in case you have looked at Ski's posts) could possible explain the Coriolis effect.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71053.msg1921471#msg1921471
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71053.msg1921461#msg1921461

From what I could glean from a quick search, Ski's reference to Mach's principle basically seems to be tied to the celestial gears explanation.
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Quote from: Crouton on December 02, 2022, 08:48:03 AM
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!
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Username

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 02:40:32 PM »
Its quite likely that they are caused by the rotating heavens.
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Mikey T.

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 03:00:18 PM »
Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 19, 2017, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on December 19, 2017, 08:35:10 PM
Usually just the mention of "Coriolis Effect" is enough to get all sorts of comments about bathtubs, sinks, cyclones and hurricanes.


Literally fell out of my chair laughing at this.  Nice one Moose.
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JackBlack

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 05:26:20 PM »
Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 02:20:23 PM
Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM
Coriolis has a whole host of explanations under FET (DET and celestial gears are the main ones),
Please explain how either DET, celestial gears or Mach's principle (in case you have looked at Ski's posts) could possible explain the Coriolis effect.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71053.msg1921471#msg1921471
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71053.msg1921461#msg1921461
So no explanations, just links to crap.
The closest you come to the explanation is this bit here:
"and combined with celestial gravitation we will find some small rotational force imparted to objects on the surface of the Earth"
There is no explanation of why at all, and that is without even getting into all the problems of the gears in the first place.
If it worked at all, they would drag things along with them, akin to the stars being dragged along by these gears. That would mean there would be a constant force trying to pull you to the west.

The second post doesn't address the Coriolis effect at all.

So no explanation.
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JackBlack

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 05:28:03 PM »
Quote from: John Davis on December 20, 2017, 02:40:32 PM
Its quite likely that they are caused by the rotating heavens.
This would have similar issues that I raised with celestial gears.
Why would it cause things to rotate rather than just be dragged along?
Why does this rate of rotation vary across the disk?
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Username

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 06:19:30 PM »
Quote from: JackBlack on December 20, 2017, 05:28:03 PM
Why would it cause things to rotate rather than just be dragged along?
How would you differentiate between dragging and rotation?
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rabinoz

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2017, 06:23:02 PM »
Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 02:20:23 PM
Quote from: Jane on December 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM
Coriolis has a whole host of explanations under FET (DET and celestial gears are the main ones),
Please explain how either DET, celestial gears or Mach's principle (in case you have looked at Ski's posts) could possible explain the Coriolis effect.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71053.msg1921471#msg1921471
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71053.msg1921461#msg1921461

From what I could glean from a quick search, Ski's reference to Mach's principle basically seems to be tied to the celestial gears explanation.
Do you ever try to picture in your own mind this sort of stuff?
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rabinoz

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2017, 06:46:51 PM »
Quote from: John Davis on December 20, 2017, 02:40:32 PM
Its quite likely that they are caused by the rotating heavens.
How could the rotating heavens cause the winds around high and low weather systems to rotate the way they do?

Firstly the effect on hurricanes, typhoons and cyclones.
Quote from: sokarul on March 10, 2017, 02:46:07 PM
Why is there a clear band where hurricanes don't cross?
I would say that there must be something that causes
          hurricanes, typhoons and cyclones to rotate in a counter-clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and
          cyclones to rotate in a clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere.

Even when it comes to the ordinary weather patterns of Highs and Lows, something causes the four distinct situations observed for High and Low Pressure Weather systems in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres.
     
Northern Hemisphere
     
Southern Hemisphere
Highs
     
Clockwise
     
Anti-clockwise
Lows
     
Anti-clockwise
     
Clockwise
Just look at weather maps that show highs, lows and wind directions to verify this for yourself.

How could the "heavens", all rotating about one "central hub", cause these four distinct situations?

But then you also have to explain the related Eötvös effect, the apparent variation in g due to West-to-East vs East-to-West motion.

The rotating Globe explains all of these related observations so simply!
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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2017, 07:02:01 PM »
Quote from: John Davis on December 20, 2017, 02:40:32 PM
Its quite likely that they are caused by the rotating heavens.

How would one test that hypothesis?
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JackBlack

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2017, 07:03:44 PM »
Quote from: John Davis on December 20, 2017, 06:19:30 PM
How would you differentiate between dragging and rotation?
Quite easily.
One example of the Coriolis effect is things curving as they move along Earth, unless they follow the equator.
Due to the rotation of Earth, things in the northern hemisphere curve to the right. This applies regardless of if they are going north or south or east or west.
Things in the southern hemisphere curve to the left.

If instead this was a result of the heavens rotating and dragging things, everything would curve to west.
If you were to have something go north from the equator, it would curve to the left, towards west. If it went south from the northern circle it would curve to the right, to the west.

See how it is fundamentally different?
But it would also effect things like Foucault's pendulum.
The coriolis effect causing them to rotate, with each path moving slightly to the left or right. This causes the motion to build up and results in a rotation.
If it was drag, it would be pushed to the west, and effectively just look like it was swinging at a slight angle.
If it was swinging east-west, then it would merely shift the centre of the swing slightly to the west.

Reality matches the Coriolis effect, not the heavens dragging things.
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narcberry

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2017, 08:06:31 AM »
Quote from: JackBlack on December 20, 2017, 07:03:44 PM
One example of the Coriolis effect is things curving as they move along Earth, unless they follow the equator.

The equator IS curved, in BOTH models. How could anything travel along the equator without being equally curved?
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JackBlack

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2017, 01:39:51 PM »
Quote from: narcberry on December 21, 2017, 08:06:31 AM
Quote from: JackBlack on December 20, 2017, 07:03:44 PM
One example of the Coriolis effect is things curving as they move along Earth, unless they follow the equator.

The equator IS curved, in BOTH models. How could anything travel along the equator without being equally curved?
Notice how I said move along Earth?
That means not including the curvature of Earth.

Yes, for the FE model it would still require it to curve, but not for the RE.
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Slemon

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2017, 01:55:32 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 06:23:02 PM
Do you ever try to picture in your own mind this sort of stuff?
You asked for the FE answers, here they are. I'm not saying they work, just that not every objection to FET automatically makes sense.
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Quote from: Crouton on December 02, 2022, 08:48:03 AM
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!
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rabinoz

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2017, 02:33:42 PM »
Quote from: Jane on December 21, 2017, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 06:23:02 PM
Do you ever try to picture in your own mind this sort of stuff?
You asked for the FE answers, here they are. I'm not saying they work,
Why bother even presenting (or making up) FE answers that obviously do not work? Can't "genuine flat earthers" do that without your help?
Quote from: Jane
just that not every objection to FET automatically makes sense.
Maybe so, but you are adding to flat earth theory with suggestions that seem even more ridiculous than the material already in "the Wiki".

That is why I asked, "Do you ever try to picture in your own mind this sort of stuff?"

For example, it would seem obvious from the transit photo that neither Venus nor the smaller Mercury could cast a shadow on the moon.
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Slemon

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2017, 02:43:33 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on December 21, 2017, 02:33:42 PM
Why bother even presenting (or making up) FE answers that obviously do not work? Can't "genuine flat earthers" do that without your help?
Have you seen how few of them bother to stay active in threads where vitriol constantly gets thrown at them?
I give the existing answers (and logical associations) so that the people that ask questions and read the threads get to have a better idea of what FET actually is, and can make informed arguments as a result.

The more idiots you get crowing "Another victory for RET!" because they're too lazy to bother putting in the thought to adjust an argument to apply to FET, or acknowledge that disproofs are often non-trivial, the more FE-open people are going to read it and assume REers don't have an honest argument.

Quote
For example, it would seem obvious from the transit photo that neither Venus nor the smaller Mercury could cast a shadow on the moon.
Depends on the orbit and the size of the light they block, but it's hardly worth discussing that in this thread.

This thread's about the Coriolis effect, so take that.
Someone open to FET reads it, has a little thought about a way for a potential mechanism, or maybe already knows of celestial gears or, less likely, DET as models. Pretending FEers don't have those answers will do nothing, taking the time to acknowledge, explore, and honestly discuss those answers meanwhile at least has a chance of doing something. And even if it doesn't it's a hundred times more interesting and entertaining than the self-congratulory posting that can go on here.
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Quote from: Crouton on December 02, 2022, 08:48:03 AM
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!
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JackBlack

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Re: What do you flatties have against this man?
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2017, 03:04:24 PM »
Quote from: Jane on December 21, 2017, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on December 20, 2017, 06:23:02 PM
Do you ever try to picture in your own mind this sort of stuff?
You asked for the FE answers, here they are. I'm not saying they work, just that not every objection to FET automatically makes sense.
No, not every object to FE nonsense automatically makes sense.
However, in this case the "answers" you provided objectively do not work.
As such, the objection remains.

Quote from: Jane on December 21, 2017, 02:43:33 PM
Someone open to FET reads it, has a little thought about a way for a potential mechanism, or maybe already knows of celestial gears or, less likely, DET as models. Pretending FEers don't have those answers will do nothing, taking the time to acknowledge, explore, and honestly discuss those answers meanwhile at least has a chance of doing something. And even if it doesn't it's a hundred times more interesting and entertaining than the self-congratulory posting that can go on here.
The only one pretending here is you.
FEers don't have answers, at least not in this case. They have excuses.

It is like asking what is x for x+5=10 to be true; with FEers saying x=13. That does not actually answer the question.
Similarly, the nonsense the FEers provide doesn't actually answer the question. It provides a superficial appearance of answering the question such that those who don't think about it might accept it.

And those self-congratulatory posts are typically be the FEers.
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