finding the roof / dome ?

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finding the roof / dome ?
« on: December 23, 2017, 11:02:26 AM »
I would like to ask the question, does anyone know any creative bizare ways that we could possibly employ in order to somhow get close, touch, or enter the dome / roof?

If it exists I think its just as likely to be water/liquid up there as it being air / space.

How can we have vacuum attached to an area of non-vaccum? it cannot coexist surely?

so we either have no roof / dome , and could potentially go all the way to the stars if we have the machine to do it, Or we could try and just hit or go into a big blob of water, a sea of water up in the air? water or vaccum ? neither make sense so how can we find out?


I have a crazy idea.

we would need about 50 to 100 long range quadcopters, each with a long wire hanging down that remotely / using wifi connects to the next quadcopter down, a series of 50 to 100 quadcopters ( or less if they can transmit further ) one after the other taking off in a series after each other so you have a long line of quadcopters going up as fast as they can, equiped with cameras too plus a tracking chip on each to locate them when they have fallen, And a cloth attached somhow, If they do hit or enter the dome, they could get wet, thats why we need the cloth, it may come back wet!

This all sounds crazy no doubt, But I dont think many will volunteer to go up there in a rocket! better to send tech up there with cameras!

This could be done cheaper with large gas filled balloons, plus flying quadcopters out of sight is against the law in some countries.

It would require some clever logistics, perhaps all needing to be attached to each other but we are talking an impractical amount of string here!! Better to transmit visuals.

Other then tieing loads of the bamboo sticks together from my back garden, thats the best idea I have at the moment, If somone knows how to make a cheap rocket and be willing to loose a camera ? then that could be do-able.

we need real practical experiments, my idea is pretty bad  :-[ I know, but if the roof is not as far as we are led to believe, we could find it sooner then we think!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 11:04:19 AM by brinnbry022 »

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54N

  • 173
Re: finding the roof / dome ?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2017, 11:37:18 AM »
How can we have vacuum attached to an area of non-vaccum? it cannot coexist surely?
You might be misunderstanding what vacuum means,  thinking of a sucking thing like a vacuum cleaner.

Replace the word 'vacuum'  with the word 'emptiness' which means exactly the same thing,  and it may make more sense,  how the air (which has mass) is attracted down to the earth leaving the emptiness of space above.

Re: finding the roof / dome ?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2017, 11:48:33 AM »
I would like to ask the question, does anyone know any creative bizare ways that we could possibly employ in order to somhow get close, touch, or enter the dome / roof?

If it exists I think its just as likely to be water/liquid up there as it being air / space.

How can we have vacuum attached to an area of non-vaccum? it cannot coexist surely?

so we either have no roof / dome , and could potentially go all the way to the stars if we have the machine to do it, Or we could try and just hit or go into a big blob of water, a sea of water up in the air? water or vaccum ? neither make sense so how can we find out?


I have a crazy idea.

we would need about 50 to 100 long range quadcopters, each with a long wire hanging down that remotely / using wifi connects to the next quadcopter down, a series of 50 to 100 quadcopters ( or less if they can transmit further ) one after the other taking off in a series after each other so you have a long line of quadcopters going up as fast as they can, equiped with cameras too plus a tracking chip on each to locate them when they have fallen, And a cloth attached somhow, If they do hit or enter the dome, they could get wet, thats why we need the cloth, it may come back wet!

This all sounds crazy no doubt, But I dont think many will volunteer to go up there in a rocket! better to send tech up there with cameras!

This could be done cheaper with large gas filled balloons, plus flying quadcopters out of sight is against the law in some countries.

It would require some clever logistics, perhaps all needing to be attached to each other but we are talking an impractical amount of string here!! Better to transmit visuals.

Other then tieing loads of the bamboo sticks together from my back garden, thats the best idea I have at the moment, If somone knows how to make a cheap rocket and be willing to loose a camera ? then that could be do-able.

we need real practical experiments, my idea is pretty bad  :-[ I know, but if the roof is not as far as we are led to believe, we could find it sooner then we think!

You can't find the dome, because it doesn't exist.  Real, practical experiments have already been done to verify this.

Re: finding the roof / dome ?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2017, 11:54:59 AM »
What you have said 54n, has made sense to me thankyou. I did not think about in like that, Now i can comprehend, that the air which has particles will fall the greater and more heavy they are, leaving space above it,  - thankyou!

that creates a new problem to me know, as if you are swimming in a load of balls, like a kids ball pit, you are effectively lighter. the lower in the atmosphere you are, the more dust we are swimming in / walking through - I know we are touching the ground but what about free falling from 100 meters to ground vs free falling 100 meters from space to another point in space? There is no atmosphere to slow you down along the way, no big stack of leaves to fall onto, or mountain of feature to feather your fall, just nothingness meaning - we must weigh more, the higher up we go? making it harder and harder to go up! like a rocket will need to work harder to propel itself against nothing as it nears space?

Is that not just a steady progression into space? rather then all of a sudden going through the invisible barrier of vacuum? Am I missing something is there not actually a vacuum? If not how does a spaceship handle the 1000mph side winds while up in space from the earths rotation? Or does it leave earths atmosphere ( and enter a new vacuum )  all of a sudden coming to an abrupt stop instead?

Something still doesnt add up in my mind, I suppose if they launched the rocket directly above the north pole, they would have 0mph momentum from spinning globe, and encounter 0mph side / entry speed when entering space - but do they launch from the north pole? or aim for it? otherwise At some point, astronauts must encounter ( or leave ) this high speed from the spinning globe and its atmosphere?

or am I missing somthing else too?

Ive never seen it explained, how the transition from spinning 1000mph, comes to an end when getting into space, just that the thrust momentum stops - what about the sideways speed?

as for the experiments already been done, I cant find any documented, although I have stumbled accross auguste piccard


He said, the ship they were in started leaking - Now to me, that does not outright suggest a 'roof' but it does suggest, if the roof / dome is filled with water, that they found it.

Its funny how stars when zoomed in, look like they are been seen through waves of water.

EDIT: Im sorry after listening to that again, it does not make clear sense to me 'what' is leaking the air balloon? the container piccard was within or something else? and also leaking what? air / water / something else?

I had my wires crossed, sorry. I cannot verify what he is talking about afterall  :-[
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 12:11:17 PM by brinnbry022 »

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: finding the roof / dome ?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2017, 12:55:19 PM »
What you have said 54n, has made sense to me thankyou. I did not think about in like that, Now i can comprehend, that the air which has particles will fall the greater and more heavy they are, leaving space above it,  - thankyou!

that creates a new problem to me know, as if you are swimming in a load of balls, like a kids ball pit, you are effectively lighter. the lower in the atmosphere you are, the more dust we are swimming in / walking through - I know we are touching the ground but what about free falling from 100 meters to ground vs free falling 100 meters from space to another point in space? There is no atmosphere to slow you down along the way, no big stack of leaves to fall onto, or mountain of feature to feather your fall, just nothingness meaning - we must weigh more, the higher up we go? making it harder and harder to go up! like a rocket will need to work harder to propel itself against nothing as it nears space?

Is that not just a steady progression into space? rather then all of a sudden going through the invisible barrier of vacuum? Am I missing something is there not actually a vacuum? If not how does a spaceship handle the 1000mph side winds while up in space from the earths rotation? Or does it leave earths atmosphere ( and enter a new vacuum )  all of a sudden coming to an abrupt stop instead?

Something still doesnt add up in my mind, I suppose if they launched the rocket directly above the north pole, they would have 0mph momentum from spinning globe, and encounter 0mph side / entry speed when entering space - but do they launch from the north pole? or aim for it? otherwise At some point, astronauts must encounter ( or leave ) this high speed from the spinning globe and its atmosphere?

or am I missing somthing else too?

Ive never seen it explained, how the transition from spinning 1000mph, comes to an end when getting into space, just that the thrust momentum stops - what about the sideways speed?

as for the experiments already been done, I cant find any documented, although I have stumbled accross auguste piccard


He said, the ship they were in started leaking - Now to me, that does not outright suggest a 'roof' but it does suggest, if the roof / dome is filled with water, that they found it.

Its funny how stars when zoomed in, look like they are been seen through waves of water.

EDIT: Im sorry after listening to that again, it does not make clear sense to me 'what' is leaking the air balloon? the container piccard was within or something else? and also leaking what? air / water / something else?

I had my wires crossed, sorry. I cannot verify what he is talking about afterall  :-[


Auguste Piccard in 1931 with Paul Klipfer in helium balloon reached height of 51775ft.
From 52000 ft horizon is 280 miles away. The Earth is way bigger than that, with radius of 3960 miles.

They were carried by winds, balloon leaked, but they patched it with vaseline and cotton rags.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Piccard

As we go higher, helium balloon becomes "heavier" (less light) COMPARED TO SURROUNDING AIR.
It is because the air gets thinner and lighter the higher you go, and at some height balloon starts floating, like jellyfish in sea water.

As we go away from Earth our revolving around Earth's center decreases because of conservation of angular momentum.
Product of tangential speed and radius tends to remain constant.
Same effect ballerina uses when pulling her arms closer to body to speed up pirouette.
Speed of arms around the body increases as their distance from the body decreases.

Leaving Earth gives the opposite thing, but it is not required, as you will see later.

As we are further from Earth we actually become lighter, because our weight depends on distance from Earth's center squared.
Rocket leaving surface must carry lot of fuel, but the fuel has weight too, so rocket needs more fuel to carry it, and so on.
Using brute force to just push toward Space will not be good enough.
Using centrifugal force reduces need for fuel, reducing weight of the rocket that way.
Orbiting Earth and increasing orbiting speed is easier and requires less fuel.
Throwing rock by hand using your full strength is still much less efficient than whirling it on a rope and releasing it at the right moment.

Rockets don't go to space in straight lines. They go to orbit and then extend orbit's radius to escape Earth's gravitation.

Rocket works by throwing mass of burnt fuel behind.
Fuel mass times added fuel speed returns back into rocket mass times added rocket speed, because of conservation of linear momentum.
(Both conservations of angular momentum and linear momentum are because of inertia.)
In atmosphere speed of burnt fuel is dampened by atmospheric pressure.
In vacuum there's no air pressure to slow down those gasses, just as there's no air friction to slow down the rocket itself.

Rocket works better in vacuum than in atmosphere.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 01:10:29 PM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

Re: finding the roof / dome ?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2017, 01:22:45 PM »
Ok, thanks for that reply Macarios , Im going to have to read it a few times to try and grasp what you have tried to explain, Im not the sharpest tool in the box but im sure with a bit of time i can comprehend what you have said, at least for now what you have said about the coming to a float, makes sense......

Thankyou  :)

At some point the penny will drop and Ill be back!

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54N

  • 173
Re: finding the roof / dome ?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 07:16:37 AM »
Is that not just a steady progression into space? rather then all of a sudden going through the invisible barrier of vacuum? Am I missing something is there not actually a vacuum? If not how does a spaceship handle the 1000mph side winds while up in space from the earths rotation? Or does it leave earths atmosphere ( and enter a new vacuum )  all of a sudden coming to an abrupt stop instead?
It is indeed a steady progression.     The air doesn't suddenly stop,   it gets thinner and thinner with elevation until there eventually isn't any, so the change from atmosphere to the emptiness of space is gradual...      This is because air is a gas, and gases expand at lower pressures.
(The surface of the  ocean is different,   it has a  sudden change from water to air because it's liquid and liquids don't behave the same way as gases)
There are no side winds in space.   Wind is moving air, and there's no air to move!