Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2017, 09:00:43 PM »
Well, they switched out the fake skull eventually. With a different one that fit better.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2017, 11:07:10 PM »
One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

Could you provide your sources for this story. Knowing a bit about the history of Paleontology I think you have read the story embelished It, mixed it up a bit and then made the rest up.
One thing that is true is that in the 19 Century when Paleontology was in its infancy people were not quite sure how all the bones went together and the bones of the iguanodon were indeed incorrectly assembled. I think your mockery of the early attempts at assembling what was a new discovery to science is rather puerile.

I think you may have been referring to the wife of Gideon Mantell, a country doctor and fossil collector. The story that was told was his wife found some teeth, but he admitted later, in 1851 that it was he discovered them.
Regarding iguanodon a near complete specimen was found in 1834 in Kent in England. I believe neither the Chinese or NASA were involved. Though the best find from that time was the discovery of over 30 individuals in a quarry in Belgium, again no Chinese or NASA participation. The first assembled specimens for public viewing were completed in 1883 again in Belgium.
Full size concrete models of dinosaurs including iguanodon were made in 1852 and still stand to this day in Crystal Palace Park. When your next in London you can go and have a look.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_Dinosaurs

The fact that these bones and others have been dug up for hundreds of years and yet you deny their existance? I have seen many examples both real and plaster models. What is your explanation of all those bones in all the museums of the world? You must really hate facts.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2017, 11:31:54 PM »
Wow what a snack..or have the Chinese been busy burying bones with assistance from Nasa?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/dec/12/fossil-hunters-find-man-sized-penguin-on-new-zealand-beach.

Have the Chinese been at it again?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42339936
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 11:40:10 PM by Nightsky »
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2017, 06:04:49 AM »
Full size concrete models of dinosaurs including iguanodon were made in 1852 and still stand to this day in Crystal Palace Park. When your next in London you can go and have a look.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_Dinosaurs

I live within walking distance of these and visit regularly - they are fantastic.  There is an ongoing restoration project, so they are looking better than they have in quite a while.

Of course in John's sad conspiracy addled world, they are all part of some grand hoax.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, there is a BBC Radio show "In our Time", which has 3 academics discussing feathered dinosaurs in this episode:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b099v33p

Fascinating how much understanding of dinosaurs has come along in the last 20 years.
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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #94 on: December 14, 2017, 07:09:11 AM »
One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

Could you provide your sources for this story. Knowing a bit about the history of Paleontology I think you have read the story embelished It, mixed it up a bit and then made the rest up.
One thing that is true is that in the 19 Century when Paleontology was in its infancy people were not quite sure how all the bones went together and the bones of the iguanodon were indeed incorrectly assembled. I think your mockery of the early attempts at assembling what was a new discovery to science is rather puerile.

I think you may have been referring to the wife of Gideon Mantell, a country doctor and fossil collector. The story that was told was his wife found some teeth, but he admitted later, in 1851 that it was he discovered them.
All attempts are equally flawed to assemble them. Sure they found better ways to assemble dead reptile, bird and animal bones since they started, but its all nonsense that is built off nonsense.

Yes, Mantell later tried to take credit for the teeth his wife found. You know, because he was a stand up guy.

It might surprise many to know some of the history of dinosaurs.

The Beginnings of the Myth
Gideon Mantell claimed his wife Mary Ann discovered some unusual teeth - clearly not ready to accept the blame of his own forgery. Once he gained fame for this, he then took credit in 1851, claiming them to be of a giant crocodile. Mantell also unearthed a largely incomplete skeleton, and rightfully concluded that the teeth did not belong to it. The plant eating teeth were dismissed as fish teeth or teeth of a rhinoceros by experts of the time.

He quickly changed his story after hearing of a 'larger than life' (literally) tale by a Richard Owen. The charismatic creationist Sir Richard Owen in 1842 invented the dinosaur, in a two hour captivating speech. Using fragments of bones from here and there he heaped fiction upon fiction to support his imaginative view of what were essentially dragons for a new age. Having had his imagination taken away by Owen he quickly pasted these two finds together. 

This was used by Hayden when he found some random large bones in the Missouri River in 1854. These were largely just teeth again.  How is it that Sir Owen described dinosaurs before their proper discovery in 1854? Until then all we knew about was a large crocodile and some fish teeth. It sounds like somebody found some teeth and wanted to get some fame out of it so made his discoveries fit the imaginative tales of a master story teller.

The First Dinosaur Hoax
The supposed first discovery of a dinosaur was by William Parker Foulke in 1858. Having heard of a fellow named Hopkins pulling bones out of a pit and putting them on display at his house, envious, he went and pulled out the first nearly complete skeleton of a dinosaur. Hopkins discovered his large bones in 1838. There is no evidence that these bones belonged to any type of large lizard.

As it turns out, the skull of Foulke was shown to be faked, and it was made using an iguana skull as reference. They replaced it with, I know you can't guess this - a duck bill. This was then shown to also be fake. Later it was shown that his impossible posture was also faked. However, the damage was done, and the American people captivated with the dinosaur myth, adding it dogmatically into their scientific religion, never to be questioned again.

The War of the Hoaxers
IN the late 1870s began the great Dinosaur rush. led by Cope and Marsh they quickly fell to greed and became mortal enemies. Using spies, armed thugs, and theft, they spent much of their time fighting each other to gain fame for their fanciful inventions highlighting the despicable mark of the scientist - "anything goes." They simply were not able to share the spotlight, it seems. These two are responsible for the largest majority of dinosaur findings of the time by FAR. They single handedly found as many bones as possible and tied them together in any way possible in one of sciences greatest pissing contests, ignoring logic and error that would only be discovered years later. Known as the 'bone wars' these two people are responsible more than anybody else for all the ridiculously fake dinosaurs we see continuing in the tradition of planting bones in locations and grafting together unrelated species to make their Frankenstein lizards.

The Second Dinosaur Rush
The second rush occurred in Canada, Alberta to be specific. Having dug up all the animal bones they could from the Missouri river they turned their attention to the well known bone harvest ground of the Red Deer River. In 1910 this area become the main collecting area for bones. Again we have another fight for fame this time between Barnum Brown and Sternberg.

This begs the question. Why is it that no Native Americans discovered any of these bones? Why are there no discoveries by any culture or any mention of these dinosaurs before 1842?! The area was very often inhabited by many native tribes. But beyond this, there are no mentions of dinosaurs at all before 1800s in any country or any culture. They are clearly very common to find during this time, so much so that Richard Owen pulled them out of a random pit. Additionally, no artifacts were reported from indigenous people - lending credence to the idea that they were transporting bones from other areas and planting them to further their fame.

Are we supposed to believe there were no quarries before the 1800s? Or that we as a species collectively ignored the giant bones lying around everywhere, especially near water where we are known to prefer to build cities? No, this is patently ridiculous.



The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2017, 08:27:42 AM »
One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

Could you provide your sources for this story. Knowing a bit about the history of Paleontology I think you have read the story embelished It, mixed it up a bit and then made the rest up.
One thing that is true is that in the 19 Century when Paleontology was in its infancy people were not quite sure how all the bones went together and the bones of the iguanodon were indeed incorrectly assembled. I think your mockery of the early attempts at assembling what was a new discovery to science is rather puerile.

I think you may have been referring to the wife of Gideon Mantell, a country doctor and fossil collector. The story that was told was his wife found some teeth, but he admitted later, in 1851 that it was he discovered them.
All attempts are equally flawed to assemble them. Sure they found better ways to assemble dead reptile, bird and animal bones since they started, but its all nonsense that is built off nonsense.

Yes, Mantell later tried to take credit for the teeth his wife found. You know, because he was a stand up guy.

It might surprise many to know some of the history of dinosaurs.

The Beginnings of the Myth
Gideon Mantell claimed his wife Mary Ann discovered some unusual teeth - clearly not ready to accept the blame of his own forgery. Once he gained fame for this, he then took credit in 1851, claiming them to be of a giant crocodile. Mantell also unearthed a largely incomplete skeleton, and rightfully concluded that the teeth did not belong to it. The plant eating teeth were dismissed as fish teeth or teeth of a rhinoceros by experts of the time.

He quickly changed his story after hearing of a 'larger than life' (literally) tale by a Richard Owen. The charismatic creationist Sir Richard Owen in 1842 invented the dinosaur, in a two hour captivating speech. Using fragments of bones from here and there he heaped fiction upon fiction to support his imaginative view of what were essentially dragons for a new age. Having had his imagination taken away by Owen he quickly pasted these two finds together. 

This was used by Hayden when he found some random large bones in the Missouri River in 1854. These were largely just teeth again.  How is it that Sir Owen described dinosaurs before their proper discovery in 1854? Until then all we knew about was a large crocodile and some fish teeth. It sounds like somebody found some teeth and wanted to get some fame out of it so made his discoveries fit the imaginative tales of a master story teller.

The First Dinosaur Hoax
The supposed first discovery of a dinosaur was by William Parker Foulke in 1858. Having heard of a fellow named Hopkins pulling bones out of a pit and putting them on display at his house, envious, he went and pulled out the first nearly complete skeleton of a dinosaur. Hopkins discovered his large bones in 1838. There is no evidence that these bones belonged to any type of large lizard.

As it turns out, the skull of Foulke was shown to be faked, and it was made using an iguana skull as reference. They replaced it with, I know you can't guess this - a duck bill. This was then shown to also be fake. Later it was shown that his impossible posture was also faked. However, the damage was done, and the American people captivated with the dinosaur myth, adding it dogmatically into their scientific religion, never to be questioned again.

The War of the Hoaxers
IN the late 1870s began the great Dinosaur rush. led by Cope and Marsh they quickly fell to greed and became mortal enemies. Using spies, armed thugs, and theft, they spent much of their time fighting each other to gain fame for their fanciful inventions highlighting the despicable mark of the scientist - "anything goes." They simply were not able to share the spotlight, it seems. These two are responsible for the largest majority of dinosaur findings of the time by FAR. They single handedly found as many bones as possible and tied them together in any way possible in one of sciences greatest pissing contests, ignoring logic and error that would only be discovered years later. Known as the 'bone wars' these two people are responsible more than anybody else for all the ridiculously fake dinosaurs we see continuing in the tradition of planting bones in locations and grafting together unrelated species to make their Frankenstein lizards.

The Second Dinosaur Rush
The second rush occurred in Canada, Alberta to be specific. Having dug up all the animal bones they could from the Missouri river they turned their attention to the well known bone harvest ground of the Red Deer River. In 1910 this area become the main collecting area for bones. Again we have another fight for fame this time between Barnum Brown and Sternberg.

This begs the question. Why is it that no Native Americans discovered any of these bones? Why are there no discoveries by any culture or any mention of these dinosaurs before 1842?! The area was very often inhabited by many native tribes. But beyond this, there are no mentions of dinosaurs at all before 1800s in any country or any culture. They are clearly very common to find during this time, so much so that Richard Owen pulled them out of a random pit. Additionally, no artifacts were reported from indigenous people - lending credence to the idea that they were transporting bones from other areas and planting them to further their fame.

Are we supposed to believe there were no quarries before the 1800s? Or that we as a species collectively ignored the giant bones lying around everywhere, especially near water where we are known to prefer to build cities? No, this is patently ridiculous.


So some people faked some stuff 150 years ago so everyone in that field since then is a fake and a liar.
Got it.
I use the same logic with medicine.  During that same time period there were a lot of so called wonder drugs sold by fake doctors.
Clearly every drug since then is a fake.

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2017, 08:40:19 AM »
Is he claiming all the trackways are fake, made as part of a conspiracy to somehow benefit all the world’s Palaeontologists?....while at the same time believing moonlight is dangerous and Penguins are a result of a Nazi experiment that are being used to feed Antartic guards!
I think I see a pattern developing, do you?

All this sounds just like their excuses for claiming satelites don’t exist along with the Hubble telescope, all the space missions, moon landings, the list goes on...oh and of course all the resulting photographs. Apparently John doesn’t believe in photographs according to a statement he made on another topic.

The common denominator is they ignore evidence, play a conspirac card all in some bizarre and outlandish effort to shore up their fictitious beliefs. Why?
When you put everything together like this, it becomes pretty clear that there are only two explanations for "why?".  One, he could be extremely delusional or two, he could be enjoying the attention he gets from aggravating people with nonsense. 

The only question, then, is which answer seems more credible?  I personally believe he's trolling, but I won't pretend I have conclusive proof of that.  Either way, not really worth the trouble of engaging.  Someone this delusional doesn't have the ability to respond logically and someone trolling like this refuses to respond logically, so there's just no point. 

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2017, 10:17:09 AM »
One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

Could you provide your sources for this story. Knowing a bit about the history of Paleontology I think you have read the story embelished It, mixed it up a bit and then made the rest up.
One thing that is true is that in the 19 Century when Paleontology was in its infancy people were not quite sure how all the bones went together and the bones of the iguanodon were indeed incorrectly assembled. I think your mockery of the early attempts at assembling what was a new discovery to science is rather puerile.

I think you may have been referring to the wife of Gideon Mantell, a country doctor and fossil collector. The story that was told was his wife found some teeth, but he admitted later, in 1851 that it was he discovered them.
All attempts are equally flawed to assemble them. Sure they found better ways to assemble dead reptile, bird and animal bones since they started, but its all nonsense that is built off nonsense.

Yes, Mantell later tried to take credit for the teeth his wife found. You know, because he was a stand up guy.

It might surprise many to know some of the history of dinosaurs.

The Beginnings of the Myth
Gideon Mantell claimed his wife Mary Ann discovered some unusual teeth - clearly not ready to accept the blame of his own forgery. Once he gained fame for this, he then took credit in 1851, claiming them to be of a giant crocodile. Mantell also unearthed a largely incomplete skeleton, and rightfully concluded that the teeth did not belong to it. The plant eating teeth were dismissed as fish teeth or teeth of a rhinoceros by experts of the time.

He quickly changed his story after hearing of a 'larger than life' (literally) tale by a Richard Owen. The charismatic creationist Sir Richard Owen in 1842 invented the dinosaur, in a two hour captivating speech. Using fragments of bones from here and there he heaped fiction upon fiction to support his imaginative view of what were essentially dragons for a new age. Having had his imagination taken away by Owen he quickly pasted these two finds together. 

This was used by Hayden when he found some random large bones in the Missouri River in 1854. These were largely just teeth again.  How is it that Sir Owen described dinosaurs before their proper discovery in 1854? Until then all we knew about was a large crocodile and some fish teeth. It sounds like somebody found some teeth and wanted to get some fame out of it so made his discoveries fit the imaginative tales of a master story teller.

The First Dinosaur Hoax
The supposed first discovery of a dinosaur was by William Parker Foulke in 1858. Having heard of a fellow named Hopkins pulling bones out of a pit and putting them on display at his house, envious, he went and pulled out the first nearly complete skeleton of a dinosaur. Hopkins discovered his large bones in 1838. There is no evidence that these bones belonged to any type of large lizard.

As it turns out, the skull of Foulke was shown to be faked, and it was made using an iguana skull as reference. They replaced it with, I know you can't guess this - a duck bill. This was then shown to also be fake. Later it was shown that his impossible posture was also faked. However, the damage was done, and the American people captivated with the dinosaur myth, adding it dogmatically into their scientific religion, never to be questioned again.

The War of the Hoaxers
IN the late 1870s began the great Dinosaur rush. led by Cope and Marsh they quickly fell to greed and became mortal enemies. Using spies, armed thugs, and theft, they spent much of their time fighting each other to gain fame for their fanciful inventions highlighting the despicable mark of the scientist - "anything goes." They simply were not able to share the spotlight, it seems. These two are responsible for the largest majority of dinosaur findings of the time by FAR. They single handedly found as many bones as possible and tied them together in any way possible in one of sciences greatest pissing contests, ignoring logic and error that would only be discovered years later. Known as the 'bone wars' these two people are responsible more than anybody else for all the ridiculously fake dinosaurs we see continuing in the tradition of planting bones in locations and grafting together unrelated species to make their Frankenstein lizards.

The Second Dinosaur Rush
The second rush occurred in Canada, Alberta to be specific. Having dug up all the animal bones they could from the Missouri river they turned their attention to the well known bone harvest ground of the Red Deer River. In 1910 this area become the main collecting area for bones. Again we have another fight for fame this time between Barnum Brown and Sternberg.

This begs the question. Why is it that no Native Americans discovered any of these bones? Why are there no discoveries by any culture or any mention of these dinosaurs before 1842?! The area was very often inhabited by many native tribes. But beyond this, there are no mentions of dinosaurs at all before 1800s in any country or any culture. They are clearly very common to find during this time, so much so that Richard Owen pulled them out of a random pit. Additionally, no artifacts were reported from indigenous people - lending credence to the idea that they were transporting bones from other areas and planting them to further their fame.

Are we supposed to believe there were no quarries before the 1800s? Or that we as a species collectively ignored the giant bones lying around everywhere, especially near water where we are known to prefer to build cities? No, this is patently ridiculous.


So some people faked some stuff 150 years ago so everyone in that field since then is a fake and a liar.
Got it.
I use the same logic with medicine.  During that same time period there were a lot of so called wonder drugs sold by fake doctors.
Clearly every drug since then is a fake.
They aren't all liars; they just learned lies as facts and unwittingly continue to push them. This makes it all the more funny to watch them fill their dragon bones with air, and create other magical solutions to their impossibilities. Its a very similar situation to round earthers - they aren't all liars. They are wrong.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2017, 10:35:19 AM »
One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

Could you provide your sources for this story. Knowing a bit about the history of Paleontology I think you have read the story embelished It, mixed it up a bit and then made the rest up.
One thing that is true is that in the 19 Century when Paleontology was in its infancy people were not quite sure how all the bones went together and the bones of the iguanodon were indeed incorrectly assembled. I think your mockery of the early attempts at assembling what was a new discovery to science is rather puerile.

I think you may have been referring to the wife of Gideon Mantell, a country doctor and fossil collector. The story that was told was his wife found some teeth, but he admitted later, in 1851 that it was he discovered them.
All attempts are equally flawed to assemble them. Sure they found better ways to assemble dead reptile, bird and animal bones since they started, but its all nonsense that is built off nonsense.

Yes, Mantell later tried to take credit for the teeth his wife found. You know, because he was a stand up guy.

It might surprise many to know some of the history of dinosaurs.

The Beginnings of the Myth
Gideon Mantell claimed his wife Mary Ann discovered some unusual teeth - clearly not ready to accept the blame of his own forgery. Once he gained fame for this, he then took credit in 1851, claiming them to be of a giant crocodile. Mantell also unearthed a largely incomplete skeleton, and rightfully concluded that the teeth did not belong to it. The plant eating teeth were dismissed as fish teeth or teeth of a rhinoceros by experts of the time.

He quickly changed his story after hearing of a 'larger than life' (literally) tale by a Richard Owen. The charismatic creationist Sir Richard Owen in 1842 invented the dinosaur, in a two hour captivating speech. Using fragments of bones from here and there he heaped fiction upon fiction to support his imaginative view of what were essentially dragons for a new age. Having had his imagination taken away by Owen he quickly pasted these two finds together. 

This was used by Hayden when he found some random large bones in the Missouri River in 1854. These were largely just teeth again.  How is it that Sir Owen described dinosaurs before their proper discovery in 1854? Until then all we knew about was a large crocodile and some fish teeth. It sounds like somebody found some teeth and wanted to get some fame out of it so made his discoveries fit the imaginative tales of a master story teller.

The First Dinosaur Hoax
The supposed first discovery of a dinosaur was by William Parker Foulke in 1858. Having heard of a fellow named Hopkins pulling bones out of a pit and putting them on display at his house, envious, he went and pulled out the first nearly complete skeleton of a dinosaur. Hopkins discovered his large bones in 1838. There is no evidence that these bones belonged to any type of large lizard.

As it turns out, the skull of Foulke was shown to be faked, and it was made using an iguana skull as reference. They replaced it with, I know you can't guess this - a duck bill. This was then shown to also be fake. Later it was shown that his impossible posture was also faked. However, the damage was done, and the American people captivated with the dinosaur myth, adding it dogmatically into their scientific religion, never to be questioned again.

The War of the Hoaxers
IN the late 1870s began the great Dinosaur rush. led by Cope and Marsh they quickly fell to greed and became mortal enemies. Using spies, armed thugs, and theft, they spent much of their time fighting each other to gain fame for their fanciful inventions highlighting the despicable mark of the scientist - "anything goes." They simply were not able to share the spotlight, it seems. These two are responsible for the largest majority of dinosaur findings of the time by FAR. They single handedly found as many bones as possible and tied them together in any way possible in one of sciences greatest pissing contests, ignoring logic and error that would only be discovered years later. Known as the 'bone wars' these two people are responsible more than anybody else for all the ridiculously fake dinosaurs we see continuing in the tradition of planting bones in locations and grafting together unrelated species to make their Frankenstein lizards.

The Second Dinosaur Rush
The second rush occurred in Canada, Alberta to be specific. Having dug up all the animal bones they could from the Missouri river they turned their attention to the well known bone harvest ground of the Red Deer River. In 1910 this area become the main collecting area for bones. Again we have another fight for fame this time between Barnum Brown and Sternberg.

This begs the question. Why is it that no Native Americans discovered any of these bones? Why are there no discoveries by any culture or any mention of these dinosaurs before 1842?! The area was very often inhabited by many native tribes. But beyond this, there are no mentions of dinosaurs at all before 1800s in any country or any culture. They are clearly very common to find during this time, so much so that Richard Owen pulled them out of a random pit. Additionally, no artifacts were reported from indigenous people - lending credence to the idea that they were transporting bones from other areas and planting them to further their fame.

Are we supposed to believe there were no quarries before the 1800s? Or that we as a species collectively ignored the giant bones lying around everywhere, especially near water where we are known to prefer to build cities? No, this is patently ridiculous.


So some people faked some stuff 150 years ago so everyone in that field since then is a fake and a liar.
Got it.
I use the same logic with medicine.  During that same time period there were a lot of so called wonder drugs sold by fake doctors.
Clearly every drug since then is a fake.
They aren't all liars; they just learned lies as facts and unwittingly continue to push them. This makes it all the more funny to watch them fill their dragon bones with air, and create other magical solutions to their impossibilities. Its a very similar situation to round earthers - they aren't all liars. They are wrong.
So the team working on cleaning a giant leg bone at our local museum are just wrong.  Ok.
I'm curious, what do you think that giant leg bone belonged to?

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2017, 10:41:17 AM »
Eric Dubay suggests they come from Giants. I'd have to see the actual bone to be able to say. It could be a fake, or some other animal entirely, or some third option.

We do know that there was a mass extinction that ended not only the dinosaurs but I believe 95% of all living species at the time.  This was not the only great die off that has been discovered.  Again, not sure where you are getting your misinformation from.
Look, more nonsense! The mass extinction apparently not only killed off 95% of species, but also instead made penguins larger. Oh boy.
http://time.com/5062266/giant-penguin-fossil-new-zealand/
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2017, 10:46:44 AM »
Eric Dubay suggests they come from Giants. I'd have to see the actual bone to be able to say. It could be a fake, or some other animal entirely, or some third option.

We do know that there was a mass extinction that ended not only the dinosaurs but I believe 95% of all living species at the time.  This was not the only great die off that has been discovered.  Again, not sure where you are getting your misinformation from.
Look, more nonsense! The mass extinction apparently not only killed off 95% of species, but also instead made penguins larger. Oh boy.
http://time.com/5062266/giant-penguin-fossil-new-zealand/
Did t you claim that penguins were created by nazis as a food source.
So, giants might be real, but not dinosaurs and people who spend their life studying the subject are easily fooled by a fake, from somewhere.  All of them.  But you know the field way better than they do clearly and have, with zero evidence, concluded their entire career is fake.
Yeah, that all sounds reasonable.

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Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2017, 10:58:35 AM »
Full size concrete models of dinosaurs including iguanodon were made in 1852 and still stand to this day in Crystal Palace Park. When your next in London you can go and have a look.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_Dinosaurs

I live within walking distance of these and visit regularly - they are fantastic.  There is an ongoing restoration project, so they are looking better than they have in quite a while.

Of course in John's sad conspiracy addled world, they are all part of some grand hoax.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, there is a BBC Radio show "In our Time", which has 3 academics discussing feathered dinosaurs in this episode:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b099v33p

Fascinating how much understanding of dinosaurs has come along in the last 20 years.

Go Mr. Crab.! Nice part of London.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2017, 11:00:24 AM »
One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

One of the first dinosaurs was in the lobby of an entertaining room, as a spectacle for foolish visitors. The attention of the public was caught by a Charismatic Creationist, in one fateful speech. The first was a bunch of teeth experts repeatedly confirmed were nothing, found by a quarry owners wife. He later found a gator skull, piltdowned it, and we now have the iguanodon.

Could you provide your sources for this story. Knowing a bit about the history of Paleontology I think you have read the story embelished It, mixed it up a bit and then made the rest up.
One thing that is true is that in the 19 Century when Paleontology was in its infancy people were not quite sure how all the bones went together and the bones of the iguanodon were indeed incorrectly assembled. I think your mockery of the early attempts at assembling what was a new discovery to science is rather puerile.

I think you may have been referring to the wife of Gideon Mantell, a country doctor and fossil collector. The story that was told was his wife found some teeth, but he admitted later, in 1851 that it was he discovered them.
All attempts are equally flawed to assemble them. Sure they found better ways to assemble dead reptile, bird and animal bones since they started, but its all nonsense that is built off nonsense.

Yes, Mantell later tried to take credit for the teeth his wife found. You know, because he was a stand up guy.

It might surprise many to know some of the history of dinosaurs.

The Beginnings of the Myth
Gideon Mantell claimed his wife Mary Ann discovered some unusual teeth - clearly not ready to accept the blame of his own forgery. Once he gained fame for this, he then took credit in 1851, claiming them to be of a giant crocodile. Mantell also unearthed a largely incomplete skeleton, and rightfully concluded that the teeth did not belong to it. The plant eating teeth were dismissed as fish teeth or teeth of a rhinoceros by experts of the time.

He quickly changed his story after hearing of a 'larger than life' (literally) tale by a Richard Owen. The charismatic creationist Sir Richard Owen in 1842 invented the dinosaur, in a two hour captivating speech. Using fragments of bones from here and there he heaped fiction upon fiction to support his imaginative view of what were essentially dragons for a new age. Having had his imagination taken away by Owen he quickly pasted these two finds together. 

This was used by Hayden when he found some random large bones in the Missouri River in 1854. These were largely just teeth again.  How is it that Sir Owen described dinosaurs before their proper discovery in 1854? Until then all we knew about was a large crocodile and some fish teeth. It sounds like somebody found some teeth and wanted to get some fame out of it so made his discoveries fit the imaginative tales of a master story teller.

The First Dinosaur Hoax
The supposed first discovery of a dinosaur was by William Parker Foulke in 1858. Having heard of a fellow named Hopkins pulling bones out of a pit and putting them on display at his house, envious, he went and pulled out the first nearly complete skeleton of a dinosaur. Hopkins discovered his large bones in 1838. There is no evidence that these bones belonged to any type of large lizard.

As it turns out, the skull of Foulke was shown to be faked, and it was made using an iguana skull as reference. They replaced it with, I know you can't guess this - a duck bill. This was then shown to also be fake. Later it was shown that his impossible posture was also faked. However, the damage was done, and the American people captivated with the dinosaur myth, adding it dogmatically into their scientific religion, never to be questioned again.

The War of the Hoaxers
IN the late 1870s began the great Dinosaur rush. led by Cope and Marsh they quickly fell to greed and became mortal enemies. Using spies, armed thugs, and theft, they spent much of their time fighting each other to gain fame for their fanciful inventions highlighting the despicable mark of the scientist - "anything goes." They simply were not able to share the spotlight, it seems. These two are responsible for the largest majority of dinosaur findings of the time by FAR. They single handedly found as many bones as possible and tied them together in any way possible in one of sciences greatest pissing contests, ignoring logic and error that would only be discovered years later. Known as the 'bone wars' these two people are responsible more than anybody else for all the ridiculously fake dinosaurs we see continuing in the tradition of planting bones in locations and grafting together unrelated species to make their Frankenstein lizards.

The Second Dinosaur Rush
The second rush occurred in Canada, Alberta to be specific. Having dug up all the animal bones they could from the Missouri river they turned their attention to the well known bone harvest ground of the Red Deer River. In 1910 this area become the main collecting area for bones. Again we have another fight for fame this time between Barnum Brown and Sternberg.

This begs the question. Why is it that no Native Americans discovered any of these bones? Why are there no discoveries by any culture or any mention of these dinosaurs before 1842?! The area was very often inhabited by many native tribes. But beyond this, there are no mentions of dinosaurs at all before 1800s in any country or any culture. They are clearly very common to find during this time, so much so that Richard Owen pulled them out of a random pit. Additionally, no artifacts were reported from indigenous people - lending credence to the idea that they were transporting bones from other areas and planting them to further their fame.

Are we supposed to believe there were no quarries before the 1800s? Or that we as a species collectively ignored the giant bones lying around everywhere, especially near water where we are known to prefer to build cities? No, this is patently ridiculous.




...’’and that’s what you call a response. I thought you were into empiricism......let’s have some John.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

*

Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2017, 11:01:52 AM »
Eric Dubay suggests they come from Giants. I'd have to see the actual bone to be able to say. It could be a fake, or some other animal entirely, or some third option.

We do know that there was a mass extinction that ended not only the dinosaurs but I believe 95% of all living species at the time.  This was not the only great die off that has been discovered.  Again, not sure where you are getting your misinformation from.
Look, more nonsense! The mass extinction apparently not only killed off 95% of species, but also instead made penguins larger. Oh boy.
http://time.com/5062266/giant-penguin-fossil-new-zealand/
I really think you are confused over dates and times, not surprising as you recently thought there was 90 hours in A day.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:25:11 PM by Nightsky »
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

*

Username

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2017, 11:19:10 AM »
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2017, 11:21:41 AM »
Goldbogen et al, and Holden
Are you talking about Ted Holden?  Please tell me that's not the source you are citing.  This is the guy who claims that Saturn once hovered over the North Pole and that's why gravity was less back then.
That's not your source right?  You must mean some other Holden

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2017, 01:10:56 PM »
I personally believe he's trolling, but I won't pretend I have conclusive proof of that.  Either way, not really worth the trouble of engaging.  Someone this delusional doesn't have the ability to respond logically and someone trolling like this refuses to respond logically, so there's just no point.

Yep, trolling. You can tell from his writing style that he's a man of intelligence, and there's a fundamental intelligence limit on how clever you can be whilst still believing ideas which go against evidence. The exception to that is intelligent people suffering from genuine mental illness (like Sandokhan) who have an actual problem decoding reality into something that makes sense in their brains. The way Davis posts fairly rationally and is in sync with certain aspects of science and mathematics shows that cannot be the case with him.
You will also note the evasive tactics of refusing to address certain questions - notably whenever dinosaurs are discussed, scoffing at the idea of their existence but quite happily agreeing that "alternative" giant animals existed, but never going into detail about what those giant animals are supposed to be or why they are feasible when dinosaurs are not, even when directly questioned. The classic sign of the troll.
He's going for the "professional crank" angle, pretending he's a hardcore believer in flat earth so he can get on local radio and be a legend in his own lunchtime.
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2017, 01:28:21 PM »
And let's talk a bit about how their bones have to be filled with air, just for them to lumber about and eat for 90 hours a day.

Oh John, smart  is really not yor middle name......momentary lapse of reason?
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

*

Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2017, 01:33:13 PM »
Like all other flat earthers, why do you never answer the question? I know you have no answers but you could at least give it a go.

How do you explain  away all the dinosaur fossils that have been dug out the ground all over the world during the last 150 years,without Chinese help or even support from NASA? What has your research delivered?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:49:14 PM by Nightsky »
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

*

Crutchwater

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2017, 01:44:18 PM »
I've seen some very convincing fake Levi's...

There are some very good fake Les Paul guitars...

I guess my pants and musical instruments are ALL forgeries!
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

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Macarios

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2017, 04:07:41 PM »
Those giant bones remodeled to look like dinosaur bones... are they from giants that lived before humans?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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Crutchwater

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2017, 04:31:30 PM »
What was it, the Nephalim? the skeleton of a 50 foot fallen angel?

That was great!!!
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

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Username

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2017, 06:27:51 PM »
Not all pants are fake, but surely, some are "
 Here to laugh at you".


Also, get a real name.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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Crutchwater

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2017, 11:41:53 PM »
Not all pants are fake, but surely, some are "
 Here to laugh at you".


Also, get a real name.

Not all dinosaurs are fake, but surely, some are?
Do you even pay attention to what you say?

Also, my name doesn't get any more real. YOU are why I'm here. I am completely honest.
If you want to save keystrokes, call me Dennis.
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

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Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #114 on: December 15, 2017, 01:18:53 AM »
Not all pants are fake, but surely, some are "
 Here to laugh at you".


Also, get a real name.

How about you provide an answer for all the dinosaur fossils in existance that have been recovered from the ground from all five continents.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #115 on: December 15, 2017, 01:19:35 PM »


Also, get a real name.

John Davis isn't your real name.
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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Username

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #116 on: December 15, 2017, 01:22:07 PM »
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #117 on: December 15, 2017, 04:57:58 PM »


Also, get a real name.

John Davis isn't your real name.
If you say so.

I do say so. You can't prove me wrong. Although now you're telling other people to use real names, can we call you Captain Hypocrite?
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

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Nightsky

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2017, 01:01:14 AM »
Well it looks like Captain hypocrite has chosen to avoid answering the question. Like most if not all flat earthers clinging on to their beliefs is much more important than confronting the facts.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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rabinoz

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Re: Flat Earthers and Dinosaurs
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2017, 02:30:47 AM »
And let's talk a bit about how their bones have to be filled with air, just for them to lumber about and eat for 90 hours a day.

Oh John, smart  is really not yor middle name......momentary lapse of reason?
No, Eric is his middle name and John Davis real smart, a real Smart Aleck.