Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy

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Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« on: December 05, 2017, 04:43:19 PM »
Imagine a hermit living in a steep valley.  He, although could easily be She, has never left the valley, never received a formal education, and has never been told of the existence of anything beyond the valley.  Ask this person to draw a map of the world ("world" not being synonymous with "earth" but rather the world of his experience.)  This person will draw something that probably looks like a bowl.  "I see with my eyes the ground sloping up all around me.  Therefore, the world is shaped like this bowl I eat my breakfast from."

I see no difference between this extreme example and someone saying "The world looks flat to me, therefore the world IS flat."  The following thread

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=73039.0

has been pretty much devoted to totallackey saying "I see a flat earth therefore the earth is flat," JackBlack says, "no it isn't," totallackey says "yes it is..." and so on.  Much of the FE proponents use this observational evidence as proof of a flat earth.  "The Bonneville Salt Flats sure look flat to me, so the earth is flat.  It even says so in the name."

I will be quite honest:  if my experience had been growing up in and never leaving Kansas, then I might easily come to the same conclusion.  The world is flat because I can SEE no evidence to the contrary.  Fortunately, we have the experiences of others to draw upon, we have math like trigonometry that demonstrate, based on sun angles and distances, that the world cannot possibly flat.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=73074.0

I am intelligent enough to defer to their experience, which is wider than my own.  And then I gain my own experiences, which corroborate everything I have been told growing up.  I can clearly see the sun dip below the horizon of the ocean on a clear evening.  I can clearly see how Polaris is below the horizon when I fly in the southern hemisphere.  I can clearly see the round shape of the earth's shadow on the full moon during a lunar eclipse, something ordinary in a RE model and unexplainable in any FE model I have seen.

Now, as an airline pilot, my entire career and the safety of my passengers and aircraft are predicated upon navigation on a round earth.  I have even seen irrefutable evidence with my own eyes:  In the winter, we have a flight that departs Komatsu mere minutes after sunset.  Komatsu is on the coast, so I can clearly see the sun dropping below the horizon.  The low bushes in the far distance do not interfere with the horizon more than a few arc minutes.  I line up on runway 24 (about 240 degrees magnetic heading) and depart in that same direction, towards Fukuoka.  After takeoff, I clearly see the ocean horizon; there are no clouds and no fog.  As I climb, I experience something unusual:  the sun appears to rise again.  Was this the sun reappearing from the distant fog?  Could it be that it was above the horizon the whole time and merely obscured?  I check the horizon level on my heads up display.  Nope, the sun is still below the horizon.  The earth has dipped; the edge where the ocean meets the sky is now also below the horizon, and no longer obscuring the sun.  The earth continues to drop below me, revealing more and more sky that would otherwise have been obscured by a flat earth.  This continues for a good fifteen minutes until I reach cruise altitude at 33,000 ft.  Then, even though I am chasing the sun at 550 mph, it slowly - more slowly than were I stationary - sinks again behind the earth.  All of this is happening well below the horizon according to my heads up display.  It's a "double sunset" and is quite common if you are in the right place at the right time.

So I can now state unequivocally, using exactly the same logic as totallackey:  "I have seen with my own eyes that the earth is round.  Therefore IT IS ROUND."  That doesn't make it so.  But I have mountains of evidence to back me up.

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robintex

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 05:42:07 PM »
I wll inject a bit of honesty, too.
I grew up in North Central Texas which is pretty flat, to.
But we had vacationed to Galveston on several trips.
I had seen the horizon there, but again "honestly" ,  I didn't pay much attention as to the significance of it.
I guess I had just been so indoctrinated and brainwashed into thinking that that globe in the classroom was the shape of the earth.
And I don't remember studying about various projections.
So I really hadn't given any thought as to why Greenland looked so large on that map on the wall. (Which I later  learned was the Mercator Projection.)

I suppose my eyes were opened when I joined the Navy. My first experience was on a transport ship from San Francisco to Japan.
I noticed that the land gradually "sank" below the horizon, shore first, and the last thing you saw were the tops of the mountains beyond the horizon . Which proved the earth wasn't flat.

Since then I have learned a lot on this website about map projections, in particular the Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.
Also that there was a Navy Manual For Lookouts.
The higher you are, the farther you can see to the horizon.
So, although I first just accepted that the earth was a globe, I have expanded my knowledge to know why this is so.
And in retrospect, just how absurd and foolish the idea that the earth is shaped like a flat disc really is.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 05:44:32 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 11:10:27 AM »
Their brains are flat, not the Earth. Flat Brain Theory
A disk is round.
A sphere is also round.

Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 12:58:05 PM »
Imagine a hermit living in a steep valley.  He, although could easily be She, has never left the valley, never received a formal education, and has never been told of the existence of anything beyond the valley.  Ask this person to draw a map of the world ("world" not being synonymous with "earth" but rather the world of his experience.)  This person will draw something that probably looks like a bowl.  "I see with my eyes the ground sloping up all around me.  Therefore, the world is shaped like this bowl I eat my breakfast from."

I see no difference between this extreme example and someone saying "The world looks flat to me, therefore the world IS flat."  The following thread

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=73039.0

has been pretty much devoted to totallackey saying "I see a flat earth therefore the earth is flat," JackBlack says, "no it isn't," totallackey says "yes it is..." and so on.  Much of the FE proponents use this observational evidence as proof of a flat earth.  "The Bonneville Salt Flats sure look flat to me, so the earth is flat.  It even says so in the name."

I will be quite honest:  if my experience had been growing up in and never leaving Kansas, then I might easily come to the same conclusion.  The world is flat because I can SEE no evidence to the contrary.  Fortunately, we have the experiences of others to draw upon, we have math like trigonometry that demonstrate, based on sun angles and distances, that the world cannot possibly flat.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=73074.0

I am intelligent enough to defer to their experience, which is wider than my own.  And then I gain my own experiences, which corroborate everything I have been told growing up.  I can clearly see the sun dip below the horizon of the ocean on a clear evening.  I can clearly see how Polaris is below the horizon when I fly in the southern hemisphere.  I can clearly see the round shape of the earth's shadow on the full moon during a lunar eclipse, something ordinary in a RE model and unexplainable in any FE model I have seen.

Now, as an airline pilot, my entire career and the safety of my passengers and aircraft are predicated upon navigation on a round earth.  I have even seen irrefutable evidence with my own eyes:  In the winter, we have a flight that departs Komatsu mere minutes after sunset.  Komatsu is on the coast, so I can clearly see the sun dropping below the horizon.  The low bushes in the far distance do not interfere with the horizon more than a few arc minutes.  I line up on runway 24 (about 240 degrees magnetic heading) and depart in that same direction, towards Fukuoka.  After takeoff, I clearly see the ocean horizon; there are no clouds and no fog.  As I climb, I experience something unusual:  the sun appears to rise again.  Was this the sun reappearing from the distant fog?  Could it be that it was above the horizon the whole time and merely obscured?  I check the horizon level on my heads up display.  Nope, the sun is still below the horizon.  The earth has dipped; the edge where the ocean meets the sky is now also below the horizon, and no longer obscuring the sun.  The earth continues to drop below me, revealing more and more sky that would otherwise have been obscured by a flat earth.  This continues for a good fifteen minutes until I reach cruise altitude at 33,000 ft.  Then, even though I am chasing the sun at 550 mph, it slowly - more slowly than were I stationary - sinks again behind the earth.  All of this is happening well below the horizon according to my heads up display.  It's a "double sunset" and is quite common if you are in the right place at the right time.

So I can now state unequivocally, using exactly the same logic as totallackey:  "I have seen with my own eyes that the earth is round.  Therefore IT IS ROUND."  That doesn't make it so.  But I have mountains of evidence to back me up.
tl:dr

There is huge difference in declaring something to be a fact and something to be a current state of thinking.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 05:43:57 PM »
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
So I can now state unequivocally, using exactly the same logic as totallackey:  "I have seen with my own eyes that the earth is round.  Therefore IT IS ROUND."  That doesn't make it so.  But I have mountains of evidence to back me up.
tl:dr

There is huge difference in declaring something to be a fact and something to be a current state of thinking.
I do realise that you attention span is little better than that of a goldfish, but if you didn't read it why comment?

So sorry, but I cannot find just where savagepilot declared anything "to be a current state of thinking".
Maybe I didn't read it thoroughly enough either.

But he did claim personal evidence that
    "I have seen with my own eyes that the earth is round. Therefore IT IS ROUND."
then admit "That doesn't make it so" but claims "I have mountains of evidence to back me up."

And on the topic, I have no problem with, "it looks flat" because the horizon from all but quite high altitudes looks quite flat
but it is most certainly a fallacy to that the claim "so it is flat" follows from that.

Railroad tracks look as though they meet in the distance, but because we can travel to that distant point and see that they don't.
Likewise, the low altitude horizon "looks flat" but get high enough and we can see that the horizon is flat.
Even at 70,000 ft it is not far from being flat, but it there is a little curve:

This is an outstanding image of the blue sky and its extent
relative to the diameter of the Earth.

It was taken from a U.S. Air Force U-2 craft at about 70,000 feet.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 09:43:36 AM »
This thread is an absurd strawman. Nobody thinks the earth is flat just because someone thinks it looks that way.

You can measure it, and easily so. Please see my signature for more details.

Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 10:43:04 AM »
This thread is an absurd strawman. Nobody thinks the earth is flat just because someone thinks it looks that way.
It's not a straw man.  I have seen this exact argument presented in earnest several times in the few short months I have been reading here.

Post #4 from this thread: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=72513.msg1974847#msg1974847

is one that I was able to find quickly, but I know there have been other incidents from other posters as well. 

You may not value the argument, but it is being made and therefore not a straw man.   

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 10:47:36 AM »
I believe in data.

When you measure the earth, it's surface is flat. Again, and again, and again.

You can do it yourself with a level and a flat board. Just level the board against the acceleration of the earth, then move the board and do it again. Each time, you'll find that the board will stay level so long as you keep it planar to the previous measurement.

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 11:45:09 AM »
This thread is an absurd strawman. Nobody thinks the earth is flat just because someone thinks it looks that way.

You can measure it, and easily so. Please see my signature for more details.
It is not a strawman. This "argument" is used repeatedly by FEers.
But yes, you can measure it, fairly easily. Guess what? The measurements show it is round.

When you measure the earth, it's surface is flat. Again, and again, and again.
Nope. When measured on the small scale you will find there are mountains and hills and the like. Ignoring them and focusing on the local level, you find it indistinguishable from either a flat surface or a round surface, because you cannot tell the difference.

You can do it yourself with a level and a flat board. Just level the board against the acceleration of the earth, then move the board and do it again. Each time, you'll find that the board will stay level so long as you keep it planar to the previous measurement.
And what error do you have?
This is one of the times you can't tell the difference.
If your boards were 1 km long then the change in angle between the boards (assuming Earth was round and you magically kept the boards perfectly flat) would be roughly 0.009 degrees.
If you were to use a more reasonable size, like 10 m, the angle between the boards would be 0.00009 degrees.
That is already getting almost impossible to detect, and you have the issue of making sure your boards remain flat rather than warp ever so slightly.

So how about you try providing a method which can actually distinguish between a flat and round Earth?

Also it wouldn't be level with Earth's acceleration.
This is another thing that can be measured. What would amount to acceleration in your argument varies based upon location. In some locations the acceleration would be higher, in others it would be lower. This also has a decent correlation to latitude (or distance from the equator). It is lowest at the equator at roughly 9.78 m/s^2 and highest at the poles at 9.83 m/s^2.
This difference might seem small (0.05 m/s^2), but over the course of a day that would mean a speed difference of 4320 m/s, or 4.32 km/s.

So if this really was the acceleration of Earth, Earth would be tearing itself apart.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 12:27:50 PM »
It's a simple test you can do yourself, but instead you assume a round earth and assert the measurements it predicts. Look at the round-earther subverting the test, as usual.

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 12:56:27 PM »
It's a simple test you can do yourself, but instead you assume a round earth and assert the measurements it predicts. Look at the round-earther subverting the test, as usual.

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!
No, another complete failure and pathetic deflection.

Yes, it is a simple test, about as simple as just figuring out which way down is.
So what?
IT PROVES NOTHING!

Pointing out your test is useless is not subverting it.

You do not have the required accuracy to determine if Earth is round or flat from your test.

A such, claiming your test shows Earth is flat is just as dishonest as claiming it shows Earth is round.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 12:57:22 PM »
as dishonest as claiming it shows Earth is round.

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!

Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 12:58:14 PM »
It's a simple test you can do yourself, but instead you assume a round earth and assert the measurements it predicts. Look at the round-earther subverting the test, as usual.

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!
He's not subverting the test. He's telling you the RE predictions of the angle differences. You should be starting with those if you're attempting this in good faith. Calling them 'subverting the test' simply shows you have decided the outcome before you began. But I'm about 90% you're just a very poor troll at this point.

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 01:12:02 PM »
as dishonest as claiming it shows Earth is round.

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!
Nope.
Ignoring the first half of the sentence doesn't make it false.
It would be dishonest to claim that your experiment shows Earth is round.
But no one here is claiming that.
So you have just another pathetic strawman victory.
Meanwhile, you are claiming that your experiment can show Earth is flat.
But your experiment can't show that and claiming it does is just as dishonest as claiming it shows Earth is round.

So no, not another FE victory, another failure of the FEers.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 01:12:57 PM »
is just as dishonest as claiming it shows Earth is round.

Well we definitely agree.

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 01:19:45 PM »
is just as dishonest as claiming it shows Earth is round.

Well we definitely agree.
Good, that means you agree that your test is useless to determine the shape of Earth.
If it wasn't you would disagree and claim it is more honest to claim that the test shows Earth is flat than to claim it shows Earth is round (or the opposite, that it being round is the more honest conclusion).

Thanks for admitting your test is useless to determine the shape of Earth.

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Username

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 01:20:04 PM »
Unfortunately for the OP, trigonometry actually shows us a flat earth.
Quantum Ab Hoc

1 + 1 = 2
"The above proposition is occasionally useful." - Bertrand Russell

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 02:02:23 PM »
Unfortunately for the OP, trigonometry actually shows us a flat earth.
No it doesn't.
The trigonometry used in your pathetic image can't distinguish between them.
The image on the left does not show it to scale as it does not show the sun 150 000 000 km away.
However, the results obtained from reality do match that 150 000 000 km distant sun and a round Earth.

The right hand side just blatantly lies.
It starts with the assumption that Earth is flat.

With the symmetry between the 2 points used, and with that many degrees of freedom, you are unable to distinguish between the models using that data. (even with the known distance between the points)
You can have the sun significantly lower, with Earth being concave, then as the sun rises (i.e. gets further away from the point on the equator) the size of Earth increases (more technically the effective radius) until it becomes flat.
Then as you continue having the sun rise, the Earth becomes convex, starting out with an infinite effective and shrinking.

So no, using just those 3 points, even with the distance between them, you cannot determine the shape of Earth.

But the really killer is that it also completely ignores other points. (i.e. other locations where you can observe the apparent location of the sun).
These are points that are needed to be able to actually determine the shape.
At the poles the sun is observed at 0 degrees then.
Notice how that matches a RE, but not a FE.
If you put in other angles, like this image from RAB:


you clearly see FE does not match, a RE with a distant sun does.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 02:04:53 PM »
it is more honest to claim that the test shows Earth is flat than to claim it shows Earth is round

Now you're coming around.
ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 02:34:44 PM »
Earth is round
Hey look, I can do that quote mining BS as well.

Thanks for admitting Earth is round.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 02:47:05 PM »
Anyone can click your link and expose you as a liar. My links are to quotes of you saying exactly what was quoted.

Please have some respect on these boards or people wont want to debate with you.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 03:02:13 PM »
Earth is round
Hey look, I can do that quote mining BS as well.

Thanks for admitting Earth is round.
Well, surprise, surprise, his "personal text" is Reason > RET.

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 01:49:41 AM »
Anyone can click your link and expose you as a liar. My links are to quotes of you saying exactly what was quoted.
Similarly anyone can click your link and expose you as a liar.
You are quote mining me, taking what I say completely out of context to completely change the meaning.

Quoting a quote in your post as if you said it is no more dishonest than taking something I have said completely out of context to pretend I said something which meant something completely different.

Please have some respect on these boards or people wont want to debate with you.
Follow your own advice.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 05:22:34 AM »
Good, that means you agree that your test is useless to determine the shape of Earth.
If it wasn't you would disagree and claim

it is more honest to claim that the test shows Earth is flat than to claim it shows Earth is round
(or the opposite, that it being round is the more honest conclusion).

Thanks for admitting your test is useless to determine the shape of Earth.

Now you're coming around.
ANOTHER VICTORY FOR THE FE!!!
ANOTHER VICTORY FOR DECEPTION FROM THE FE!!!
You seemed to have inadvertently omitted some of the quote so I kindly fixed it for you!
ANOTHER implicit LIE FROM Flat Earthers!!!
I guess lies are the only way to prop up your pathetic pancake planet.


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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 09:32:12 AM »
If you're just going to be calling us liars, how can we truly have an honest debate?

Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2017, 09:34:00 AM »
If you're just going to be calling us liars, how can we truly have an honest debate?
You haven't been debating honestly from the start, why worry about it now?

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2017, 12:06:35 PM »
If you're just going to be calling us liars, how can we truly have an honest debate?
You are yet to debate.
So far all you have been doing is spouting a bunch of baseless claims which have easily been refuted, and lying about people.
Notice how he didn't just call you a liar?
He explained why you were one.

I made a simple statement, of the form:
If A then B.
Prior to that I made it clear that I did not agree with A.

Yet you blatantly misrepresented it and pretended I just said B, and even said that I was coming around, i.e. indicating I agreed with B.
That is lying.

If you don't want to be called a liar, stop being so dishonest.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2017, 12:22:03 PM »
What is A and B in your little example?

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JackBlack

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2017, 12:57:24 PM »
What is A and B in your little example?
In context that is quite clear.

My original statement:
Good, that means you agree that your test is useless to determine the shape of Earth.
If it wasn't you would disagree and claim
it is more honest to claim that the test shows Earth is flat than to claim it shows Earth is round.

So to simplify:
If A (it wasn't = your test is useless to determine the shape of Earth, which in more context really means if your test actually showed that Earth is flat) then B (is more honest to claim that the test shows Earth is flat than to claim it shows Earth is round, or more simply, your test shows that Earth is flat).

Have I ever indicated (in context, i.e. without quote mining me) that your test shows Earth is flat? No.
Yet you manipulated my words (by quote mining me) to pretend I said that.

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realNarcberry

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Re: Why "it looks flat so it is flat" is a logical fallacy
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2017, 01:19:32 PM »
Several of my tests have, actually.