Poll

Should the Supreme Court rule in favor of the baker?

Of course, because of religious freedom.
3 (10.7%)
Yes.  Because a business should be free to conduct its affairs as it sees fit.
10 (35.7%)
No.  Gay people should be a protected class and therefore discriminating against them is no different than discriminating against a race.
5 (17.9%)
No.  The government should enforce some standard of good behavior on businesses.
1 (3.6%)
I don't know I need to read a bunch of books on law and baking.
2 (7.1%)
Regardless of the outcome, the Supreme Court should force bakers to finally make a wedding cake that doesn't taste like total garbage.
7 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Is the cake gay or is it a lie?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 10:02:56 AM »
This keeps getting phrased as a religious liberty issue and I don't know why.

Because the baker want's it to be.
He could have just declined the commission without expressing a reason.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 10:09:37 AM »
This should be open-and-shut in favor of the business.  The fact that this is in the Supreme Court is kind of terrifying.

Looking at all the different angles of this I'm sort of confused.  This keeps getting phrased as a religious liberty issue and I don't know why.

Maybe now that attention has been spread so much the baker and his supporters don't want to appear as complete homophobes publicly.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2017, 10:11:27 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/us/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-cake.html

Baker puts a sign in his window that says "We don’t bake cakes for gay weddings.”

+

Gay couple takes offense.

= The Supreme Court has to talk about gay cakes now.

My first impulse is to side with the gay couple.  But after thinking about it I don't know.  Couldn't they find a baker that's okay with the idea?  Is this really something that we need to get the law involved with?  Maybe it would be better to let the market punish the assholes.

Would you bake a cake for a nazi party saying "kill the Jews"?

Worst comparison of 2017.
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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 10:21:21 AM »
A simple solution for any gays concerned about cake at their wedding:

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markjo

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2017, 10:43:16 AM »
Sorry, but Twinkies just aren't the same since Hostess got bought up and reintroduced.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2017, 12:03:39 PM »
This should be open-and-shut in favor of the business.  The fact that this is in the Supreme Court is kind of terrifying.

^This....

You can't force ones labor... pretty sure there is a word for that...

You don't want the cash, someone else will, free market for the win.

Only laws I am aware of is the fair housing act. That is still a mix for me as it is a business, so I my eyes they should be able to turn you down for whatever reason. However, you can mark down a slippery slope with it removed....it has always been mixed feelings on that law for me.

However, I as a business can turn you down or kick you out for whatever damn reason I please, rather it's race or I find your voice displeasing. There can be a social outcry, but no legal action.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2017, 12:35:12 PM »
It really isn't that clear cut though. If it wasn't a case of commissioning something to be custom made it would actually be pretty clear cut against the business.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2017, 12:39:02 PM »
It really isn't that clear cut though. If it wasn't a case of commissioning something to be custom made it would actually be pretty clear cut against the business.

Explain....

If I had something for sale, I can say I am not selling it to you...I don't even have to give a reason.

The only way the state could force my hand is if I had a contract with that person. Without that there is nothing they can do to me.
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boydster

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2017, 12:45:56 PM »
I don't understand any defense of the gay couple here. They don't want people to be assholes. Cry me a river. Take your business elsewhere and get over it. Is there not a gay-couple-friendly wedding cake chef that can bake a cake for them? Really?

It's not as if they are being discriminated against by society in this case. It's a baker. Fuck that guy. Take your business elsewhere.

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markjo

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2017, 12:50:17 PM »
I'm sure that there have been plenty of artists who have turned down otherwise lucrative commissions for personal/moral/ethical reasons.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2017, 12:51:40 PM »
I don't understand any defense of the gay couple here. They don't want people to be assholes. Cry me a river. Take your business elsewhere and get over it. Is there not a gay-couple-friendly wedding cake chef that can bake a cake for them? Really?

It's not as if they are being discriminated against by society in this case. It's a baker. Fuck that guy. Take your business elsewhere.

Just go to Costco and get one of their 'birthday' cakes with your own message on it. Probably tastes a lot better and is a shitload cheaper. How much money are tax payers footing the bill for this damn non existent cake? I have nothing against their lifestyle, but damn they certainly aren't making friends with this.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2017, 12:57:13 PM »

If I had something for sale, I can say I am not selling it to you...I don't even have to give a reason.

The only way the state could force my hand is if I had a contract with that person. Without that there is nothing they can do to me.


In retail, if you put a price on something and someone decides to purchase the item, a contract has been entered into.

You and I are used to custom contract work. Specifications and price is agreed to by buyer and seller before any product exists. No agreement then no contract, no obligations.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 02:05:02 PM by Bullwinkle »

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2017, 12:59:43 PM »
I'm sure that there have been plenty of artists who have turned down otherwise lucrative commissions for personal/moral/ethical reasons.

Me.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2017, 01:57:45 PM »
It really isn't that clear cut though. If it wasn't a case of commissioning something to be custom made it would actually be pretty clear cut against the business.

Explain....

If I had something for sale, I can say I am not selling it to you...I don't even have to give a reason.

The only way the state could force my hand is if I had a contract with that person. Without that there is nothing they can do to me.

Wrong. Read the post I made about protected groups, there are plenty, and now in many states sexual orientation is too. There are many reasons for which you can't refuse to sell something to someone.

EDIT: Moose explained it better.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 02:02:01 PM by Definitely Not Official »
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Pezevenk

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2017, 01:59:06 PM »
I don't understand any defense of the gay couple here. They don't want people to be assholes. Cry me a river. Take your business elsewhere and get over it. Is there not a gay-couple-friendly wedding cake chef that can bake a cake for them? Really?

It's not as if they are being discriminated against by society in this case. It's a baker. Fuck that guy. Take your business elsewhere.

I agree that they shouldn't have had the law involved, it's silly and pointless and just attention whoring.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

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Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
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DuckDodgers

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2017, 02:03:55 PM »
Can anyone point out a cake that is for a gay wedding vs a straight wedding?
I think that there are certain dead giveaways.

Without the topper, could you tell if it were a cake for a gay wedding?  I may be wrong about this, but don't they sell cakes without toppers?

I still want to know if a gay couple uses an opposite sex friend to purchase a wedding cake, would they be infringing on this guy's rights by making him bake a cake for a gay wedding?
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Pezevenk

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2017, 02:07:49 PM »
Gay cakes are rainbow colored inside.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2017, 02:24:59 PM »

Without the topper, could you tell if it were a cake for a gay wedding?



Show me a wedding cake that doesn't look gay.

Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2017, 02:28:22 PM »
It really isn't that clear cut though. If it wasn't a case of commissioning something to be custom made it would actually be pretty clear cut against the business.

Explain....

If I had something for sale, I can say I am not selling it to you...I don't even have to give a reason.

The only way the state could force my hand is if I had a contract with that person. Without that there is nothing they can do to me.

Wrong. Read the post I made about protected groups, there are plenty, and now in many states sexual orientation is too. There are many reasons for which you can't refuse to sell something to someone.

EDIT: Moose explained it better.
Moose is wrong.

And so are you.

Governments cannot force parties to enter into contracts.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2017, 02:35:24 PM »

Moose is wrong.
Governments cannot force parties to enter into contracts.


I never said government could impose a contract between two parties.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2017, 02:55:29 PM »
From reading the article, it said the baker had no objection to selling anything that was 'on the shelf' to anybody.

Also at the time they approached him to make the cake for them, gay marriage was not legal in that state.

This gay couple are just attention whores

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2017, 04:19:52 PM »
From reading the article, it said the baker had no objection to selling anything that was 'on the shelf' to anybody.

He would have no choice.

A contract consists of two parts. An offer and an acceptance.
Putting a price on an object is an offer.
Selecting that item for purchase is acceptance of the offer.
A contract exists when an offer has been accepted.

In a retail scenario acceptance is the decision in the purchasers mind to complete the contract. A contract is formed at that moment.

The vendor is legally obligated to satisfy the contract.


With custom work there is not yet a physical item to purchase.
Both parties must agree on performance and compensation.

Neither party is obligated to respond to a proposal.
Neither party is obligated to participate in negotiation.
Neither party is obligated to act until there is an agreement.


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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2017, 05:08:36 PM »

If I had something for sale, I can say I am not selling it to you...I don't even have to give a reason.

The only way the state could force my hand is if I had a contract with that person. Without that there is nothing they can do to me.


In retail, if you put a price on something and someone decides to purchase the item, a contract has been entered into.

You and I are used to custom contract work. Specifications and price is agreed to by buyer and seller before any product exists. No agreement then no contract, no obligations.

You seem pretty certain on this, and it does make sense that could be considered a contract.

However, restaurants can throw you out for whatever reason, most of them have the sign on the wall still. There are already present prices. I have seen car dealers throw people out for just not getting along and refuse the sell of the vehicle and there was already a price on the vehicle.

Granted I own/co own a few businesses of varying areas, however, I don't look to throw people out or anything like that for stupid reasons. Only times I have is for disturbing the peace, threats etc, which once it becomes criminal acts they have lost their rights on my property. Other than than, I really don't know of much.

Are there any examples of court cases filed and won for someone refusing to sell something with the price marked? Such as I try to buy a blender from a store and they simply say not for sale, or I won't sell it to you.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2017, 06:34:28 PM »
DISCLAIMER:

I HATE to read posts that break down every sentence into fragments and then responds to each separately.

I apologize to readers in advance.   ;)



If I had something for sale, I can say I am not selling it to you...I don't even have to give a reason.


If you put up an item for consideration, that is an offer.
If your offer is accepted, a contract has been established.




The only way the state could force my hand is if I had a contract with that person. Without that there is nothing they can do to me.


A contract is an offer that has been accepted.
You don't have the option to void the contract.




In retail, if you put a price on something and someone decides to purchase the item, a contract has been entered into.

You and I are used to custom contract work. Specifications and price is agreed to by buyer and seller before any product exists. No agreement then no contract, no obligations.


You seem pretty certain on this, and it does make sense that could be considered a contract.


It is the definition of a contract.




However, restaurants can throw you out for whatever reason, most of them have the sign on the wall still.


A sign like "No Dirty [race] Allowed"? Unenforceable.




Granted I own/co own a few businesses of varying areas, however, I don't look to throw people out or anything like that for stupid reasons. Only times I have is for disturbing the peace, threats etc, which once it becomes criminal acts they have lost their rights on my property. Other than than, I really don't know of much.


If someone is being threatening you drag them outside by the nut sack and drop them in the street.
If nobody is looking you kick 'em in the face.



Are there any examples of court cases filed and won for someone refusing to sell something with the price marked? Such as I try to buy a blender from a store and they simply say not for sale, or I won't sell it to you.


10 or so years ago I was last minute Christmas shopping at 'Play Co.', a low budget Toys R Us wannabe. Picked out a toy offered at $8.00.
Scanned at the register for $11.00.

I told her it was $8.00. She said 'no $11.00'

It was like 10:30pm. Long line of last minute procrastinators behind me. I could feel their displeasure at what they sensed was going to unfold.

Full of attitude she asked, "You want it or not?

I cupped my hands like a megaphone and blasted, "WE NEED A MANAGER ON ISLE 3 !!!"

He had an attitude at first until I said, "Do you really want to get sued?"

When I picked the toy off the shelf at the posted price a contract was established.
The transfer of money was just a way to satisfy the contract.



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boydster

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2017, 06:53:51 PM »
Was this cake sitting in a display case with a price tag in such a way that it was an open offer to the general public? Or was it a request made by the engaged couple to have a special cake made for their wedding?

I think the answer makes a difference.

"We'd really like you to make a cake like this for our wedding."

"No sorry, I'm not going to do that [because reasons]."

I see no problem with that exchange. And from what I read so far, it seems like there was not a cake on display with a price tag that this couple was trying to purchase on sight and leave the store with. Am I wrong about that?

And why does this couple want someone who is so deeply opposed to supporting their union that they are willing to fight it at the Supreme Court level to have such a prominent role in their wedding ceremony? That's some sick shit. This is supposed to be a celebration. I know there are pro-gay-marriage cake bakers that would jump at a high profile opportunity like this and probably make them an incredible cake just for the publicity at this point.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2017, 06:56:47 PM »
It's all settled contract law.

Lawyers have latched on to make a name for themselves.

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boydster

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2017, 07:06:35 PM »
Forget about contract law for a minute. I'm not a lawyer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I can't even pretend to be one.

Do you feel it's right that the couple is demanding this baker to make their wedding cake and pushing it this far, or does that seem kinda messed up? I'm of the "kinda messed up" persuasion.

The follow up question would be: should our tax dollars really be put to use to settle this dispute, when the free market could probably do a damn fine job handling it?

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Crouton

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2017, 07:10:42 PM »
Two gay guys getting married. I find it extremely unlikely that they would get a cake off the shelf.

In fact now that I think of it, that's probably why bakers don't like to make cakes for gay weddings. Their specifications must be insane.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2017, 07:21:26 PM »
Given at the time gay marriage was not legal when they made the request, surely the baker doesn't even need a religious defence. He could just say under his conscious he did not want to facilitate or be a part of something that was not going to be legal.

What was the request for the actual cake? Did they ask him to write a goodwill message (that may have conflicted with this persons beliefs) on it? Or was it just a plain cake like any other?

If I went to Costco and asked to have one of their cakes have a message with a swear word like 'happy 30th ya cunt!!! I'm sure they could refuse me too and I couldn't take them to the human rights/supreme court over it. Swearing is legal. People who swear shouldn't be made to feel like they are 2nd class citizens.   :P

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is the cake gay or is it a lie?
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2017, 07:36:54 PM »

...should our tax dollars really be put to use to settle this dispute, when the free market could probably do a damn fine job handling it?


This hits home for me. I've sent prospective clients away because I wanted nothing to do with them.

I could have taken their money and turned their home made "design" into an $18,000 project.

I won't have my name connected with their ugly armature attempt at art.

Brag time, don't hate me for this . . .
I am a national award winning sign designer.
I would not risk my value by acting like an hourly wage earner.

You need me, I don't need you.


One episode stands out. A prospective client unfolded a crayon drawing for me to use.
Drawn by his nephew. "Would you believe he's only 13 years old?"

"I would have guessed 6, you want to get serious or not?"

Yeh, I'm not a salesperson.  ;)