Rethinking Perspective

Sun sets due to perspective?

Try two things:

1) Recall all of those photos of rows of lampposts used to illustrate the way the Sun descends by perspective. Go look at one if you can’t, or just Google it. Look at it carefully. Now imagine that the Sun is actually a giant lamp post with a glowing ball on top. As it really exists, there is no pole, but we can imagine an invisible pole that has the same height as the altitude of the Sun. Now go back and look at your picture of the row of lampposts. Does the size of the globe atop the post appear to shrink in proportion to the size of the post? Try measuring if you are not sure. (Hint: it will!)

2) Go find one of those “perspective diagrams” that supposedly show the descent of the Sun. Notice how the perspective line that the Sun follows goes through the middle of the Sun. That’s not how perspective works, though. Instead, draw two lines TANGENT to the Sun and connect both of those to the vanishing point. The edges of the Sun should follow those perspective lines, right?

Discuss.

Sun sets due to perspective?

Try two things:

1) Recall all of those photos of rows of lampposts used to illustrate the way the Sun descends by perspective. Go look at one if you can’t, or just Google it. Look at it carefully. Now imagine that the Sun is actually a giant lamp post with a glowing ball on top. As it really exists, there is no pole, but we can imagine an invisible pole that has the same height as the altitude of the Sun. Now go back and look at your picture of the row of lampposts. Does the size of the globe atop the post appear to shrink in proportion to the size of the post? Try measuring if you are not sure. (Hint: it will!)

Is this a long winded way of saying that things look smaller the further they are away from you?

2) Go find one of those “perspective diagrams” that supposedly show the descent of the Sun. Notice how the perspective line that the Sun follows goes through the middle of the Sun. That’s not how perspective works, though. Instead, draw two lines TANGENT to the Sun and connect both of those to the vanishing point. The edges of the Sun should follow those perspective lines, right?

I've no idea what you are talking about.  Perhaps you draw the diagram and show us?

Presumably this is debunking the garbage in Earth is Not a Globe?  Rowbotham just makes that shit up.

I've no idea what you are talking about.  Perhaps you draw the diagram and show us?

They have something like this:

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on November 23, 2017, 01:38:58 PM

I've no idea what you are talking about.  Perhaps you draw the diagram and show us?

They have something like this:

It is strange how the sun's apparent size is unaffected by perspective yet the height of the sun drops right down to zero, quite contrary to even Rowbotham's writing on perspective - in one place, of course he changes his story later.
See Flat Earth Debate / Re: Using the boat model/perspective/telescope, wouldn't the Sun be the same? « Message by rabinoz on August 16, 2017, 04:00:34 PM »

I have a diagram (photo), but I’m not sure how to insert it. Is that possible from an iPhone?

I have a diagram (photo), but I’m not sure how to insert it. Is that possible from an iPhone?

You'll need to upload it (try Imgur) and post the image address as an image using the (square bracket) img tag.

note how the lamps atop the posts seem smaller as the posts appear to shrink. Why would perspective bring the Sun to the horizon but not shrink it? The trusty “lamp post argument” ain’t holding up.

note how the lamps atop the posts seem smaller as the posts appear to shrink. Why would perspective bring the Sun to the horizon but not shrink it? The trusty “lamp post argument” ain’t holding up.

Notice the distance between the lamps appears to decrease as well.
Not only would it's size shrink, the sun"s transit across the sky would appear to slow down as it set.
Neither of the two happen in reality.

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction. 

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

No, it is just not all that important. Sure, it makes things appear slightly higher, but that doesn't help the flatties.

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

So refraction works on the visual distance between one edge of the sun and the other, but not on the visual distance between the sun and the horizon?

Refraction can choose what it affects... amazing.

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

No we don't!
Refraction usually makes the sun on the horizon appear about 0.5° higher  not lower.
This is quite negligible when considering all the extra you need to explain sunsets in your pancake planet.

That doesn't help your silly ideas about sunset one little bit.

If you disagree, please post something better than empty words from empty skulls.

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

Please explain how refraction interacts with perspective to cause the apparent height of the poles/altitude of the Sun to shrink while causing the lamps to shrink but not the Sun.

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

HA!

Funny how they ignore when confronted with something that isn’t in their guidebook.

It's just a stock jroa answer - his heart's not really in it nowadays.

It's just a stock jroa answer - his heart's not really in it nowadays.

Why? Isn't the FES paying him enough to derail posts anymore?

He used to make such good posts against the flat earth, then got seduced to the Dark Side, probably by Darth Vadis Davis.

I guess any 4 year old would love his very own DarkSabre to wield.

Seriously? “The Sun sets by perspective” is core, and they’re just going to roll over that easily?

Seriously? “The Sun sets by perspective” is core, and they’re just going to roll over that easily?

Yep. If they don't answer, we can't argue with them, we can't score any points.
The poor dummies don't understand that their silence is highly visible to all newcomers to the forum and makes them look pathetic.

Yep. If they don't answer, we can't argue with them, we can't score any points.
The poor dummies don't understand that their silence is highly visible to all newcomers to the forum and makes them look pathetic.

They can use silence to try and bury posts.
By focusing on other threads, where they can at least attempt some kind of debate it makes those threads more active, brings them to the top and makes it look like FE can be defended to some extent.

I really thought that this would get someone to bite.

I really thought that this would get someone to bite.

Nah, not any more. Same with my "what is the longitude of the south pole" thread. These days they've given up posting in threads where they know they're going to get taken to pieces.

There is a definite lack of motivation on the part of FE'ers to debate basic observable phenomena that indicate the earth is spherical.

They appear to prefer arguing over complex topics where they can hide behind the fact that most people won't know enough about the real science to effectively challenge their bogus arguments.

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

I'm sorry but it isn't our fault that your understanding of refraction is just as wrong as your understanding of perspective.

But, just look how successful jroa has been at his assigned task of derailing any thread that looks like killing FE yheory stone dead.
A simple post like:

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

has completely turned everyone's attention away from any real discussion about Rethinking Perspective.

Congratulations are due to jroa for an excellent derailing job! I wonder how he gets paid.

Quote from: jroa on November 23, 2017, 11:57:13 PM

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

No, it is just not all that important. Sure, it makes things appear slightly higher, but that doesn't help the flatties.

lol, you are claiming that refraction only works in one direction.  Discussing this with you is like explaining relativity to a child. 

Quote from: jroa on November 23, 2017, 11:57:13 PM

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

So refraction works on the visual distance between one edge of the sun and the other, but not on the visual distance between the sun and the horizon?

Refraction can choose what it affects... amazing.

There are a lot of funny things that light does: refract, reflect, diffract, diffuse, etc.  The hilarious part is when you roundies come here claiming that "light always only does this or that."  You people are so naive, and even your own roundy scientists would tell you that. 

Quote from: JackBlack on November 24, 2017, 12:03:23 AM

Quote from: jroa on November 23, 2017, 11:57:13 PM

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

No, it is just not all that important. Sure, it makes things appear slightly higher, but that doesn't help the flatties.

lol, you are claiming that refraction only works in one direction.  Discussing this with you is like explaining relativity to a child.

Please explain how refraction interacts with perspective to make the Sun appear to be lower but not appear to shrink. Did you look at my diagram and the photo of the lampposts?

Quote from: jroa on November 23, 2017, 11:57:13 PM

You people seem to fail to take into account the effects of refraction.

No we don't!
Refraction usually makes the sun on the horizon appear about 0.5° higher  not lower.
This is quite negligible when considering all the extra you need to explain sunsets in your pancake planet.

That doesn't help your silly ideas about sunset one little bit.

If you disagree, please post something better than empty words from empty skulls.

Please, try again.  Refraction does not care about which direction is up, down, left or right.