Another mass shooting...

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1710 on: April 10, 2021, 07:31:30 AM »
By that logic, we should ban cars, right? In societies with lots of cars like the U.S., there are a lot of car accidents.

Not to mention all the people that don't wear seatbelts, speed, drive intoxicated (i.e., alcohol, marijuana, etc.), etc.

Oh, and we should ban spoons while we're at it. They make people fat. ::)

Look, when I say I don't really care about gun ownership, I mean I really don't care. I want people to be able to own them though. People like you and me to whom it has never occurred to shoot someone shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of others' actions.
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That argument is old.

One
Cars have extreme licensing and safety and regulation vs guns
So bring it on if you want to make them equal


Two
Cars aee dssigned for travel.
Dying is a side effect of improper use.
Guns are desgined to kill.

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JJA

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1711 on: April 10, 2021, 09:53:43 AM »
By that logic, we should ban cars, right? In societies with lots of cars like the U.S., there are a lot of car accidents.

Not to mention all the people that don't wear seatbelts, speed, drive intoxicated (i.e., alcohol, marijuana, etc.), etc.

Oh, and we should ban spoons while we're at it. They make people fat. ::)

Look, when I say I don't really care about gun ownership, I mean I really don't care. I want people to be able to own them though. People like you and me to whom it has never occurred to shoot someone shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of others' actions.

I never said we should ban cars. What I said was this...

"Countries with lots of cars have more pedestrian deaths too."

It's simple logic.  More guns means more deaths by guns. More cars means more deaths by cars.

I literally said it wasn't a value judgment on guns, I'm not trying to take yours away.

Take away guns or cars and deaths by them go down which is good, but it will have other negative effects. Deciding how these balance determines what we should do.

If you want to argue that owning lots of guns adds more benefit to society than not having lots of guns, go ahead and make it. But I don't see that as a winning argument.

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Crouton

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1712 on: April 10, 2021, 01:27:03 PM »
By that logic, we should ban cars, right? In societies with lots of cars like the U.S., there are a lot of car accidents.

Not to mention all the people that don't wear seatbelts, speed, drive intoxicated (i.e., alcohol, marijuana, etc.), etc.

Oh, and we should ban spoons while we're at it. They make people fat. ::)

Look, when I say I don't really care about gun ownership, I mean I really don't care. I want people to be able to own them though. People like you and me to whom it has never occurred to shoot someone shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of others' actions.

Driving a car is a privilege, not a right.  This privilege has to be earned and it can be revoked.  They can also preemptively prevent you from driving a car for any number of reasons.

Firearms are regarded as a right though.  Even though they really shouldn't be.  Seriously, read the second amendment and the history behind it.  It wasn't meant to give everyone the right to own a gun.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1713 on: April 10, 2021, 01:36:54 PM »
Love when someone says "my 2ndA!"
And i follow it with "what is the 2ndA?"
And their only repsonse is "soyboy".
Their talking points never live past the 1st rebuttal

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Jamie

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1714 on: April 11, 2021, 05:54:54 AM »
That argument is old.

One
Cars have extreme licensing and safety and regulation vs guns
So bring it on if you want to make them equal


Two
Cars aee dssigned for travel.
Dying is a side effect of improper use.
Guns are desgined to kill.

Most 16-year-olds can wing their driving tests and get their license and never have to worry about it again. I think getting and owning guns is a lil' more involved of a process.

Cars are also designed for racing. Guns are designed to kill, sure, but I'm thinking about shooting wild game.

What's your point?
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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Jamie

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1715 on: April 11, 2021, 05:56:58 AM »
Firearms are regarded as a right though.  Even though they really shouldn't be.  Seriously, read the second amendment and the history behind it.  It wasn't meant to give everyone the right to own a gun.

Sure, and the Constitution wasn't meant to give women and black people the right to vote or even be legally considered people. We decided that was horseshit.

And there's the Electoral College, which is rather undemocratic. The Founding Fathers probably thought most of us were buffoons and wanted to buffer against the actual rule of the people.

Regardless of the intent of the 2A, I quite like the interpretation where common people get to own firearms to protect themselves with, go hunting with, or just collect for sheer interest. It's adds a bit of balance to the equation.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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Jamie

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1716 on: April 11, 2021, 05:59:33 AM »
I never said we should ban cars. What I said was this...

"Countries with lots of cars have more pedestrian deaths too."

Yes, and your logic very clearly implies that, in order to reduce potential incidents (e.g., pedestrian deaths), we should reduce the amount of cars.

But that doesn't really address the root issues of reckless driving, like improper testing, rampant alcoholism, etc.

Much like firearms -- reducing the amount of firearms in circulation does little to actually address the root issues of gun violence, like mental health issues.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1717 on: April 11, 2021, 06:10:02 AM »
Then we should be devoting resources to monthly psych evals, all firings and breakups reported to fbi, and people with hisorty of dom violence and stalking not allowed to own.


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Jamie

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1718 on: April 11, 2021, 06:13:42 AM »
Then we should be devoting resources to monthly psych evals, all firings and breakups reported to fbi, and people with hisorty of dom violence and stalking not allowed to own.

I'd agree that there should be a greater degree of oversight with regards to the mental health of gun owners.

I like wait-times. They help prevent senseless anger-killings.

I think psychological evaluations may be useful, if not difficult to consistently and appropriately implement. Which evaluation should we use? Who will administer it?

I'd agree that domestic violence and stalking should fall under crimes that bar one from gun ownership. If the crime involves premediated violence or endangerment, no gun for you.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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JJA

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1719 on: April 11, 2021, 06:23:02 AM »
I never said we should ban cars. What I said was this...

"Countries with lots of cars have more pedestrian deaths too."

Yes, and your logic very clearly implies that, in order to reduce potential incidents (e.g., pedestrian deaths), we should reduce the amount of cars.

Well that's obvious.  How is it controversial to state that less things that cause death will cause less death?  I'm not sure what you are arguing against here.

If your primary goal is to reduce deaths by cars, removing cars is the obvious solution. How could this not be the case?

But that doesn't really address the root issues of reckless driving, like improper testing, rampant alcoholism, etc.

It actually would address the effects of all those issues, no cars means no more reckless driving, no more improper testing, no more deaths by drunk driving. No more accidental deaths. No more suicide by car.

Removing cars is the best way to reduce deaths by cars. Not that I am not sayign we should get rid of cars, I am saying that getting rid of cars would reduce car-related deaths. This isn't debatable.

Much like firearms -- reducing the amount of firearms in circulation does little to actually address the root issues of gun violence, like mental health issues.

Removing guns certainly would address the issue of gun violence. How does one be violent with a gun if they don't have one?

Read what I'm saying. I am not claiming that removing guns is the only solution or the best solution or that we should start trying to confenscate them with home raids and take your guns from your cold dead hands. I'm simply saying that lots of guns leads to lots of gun deaths. Reducing the number of guns certainly is a part of the solution, and mental health issues and violence is another part.

Less guns means less death by guns. What is hard to understand here?


Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1720 on: April 12, 2021, 03:47:16 AM »
By that logic, we should ban cars, right? In societies with lots of cars like the U.S., there are a lot of car accidents.

Not to mention all the people that don't wear seatbelts, speed, drive intoxicated (i.e., alcohol, marijuana, etc.), etc.

Oh, and we should ban spoons while we're at it. They make people fat. ::)

Look, when I say I don't really care about gun ownership, I mean I really don't care. I want people to be able to own them though. People like you and me to whom it has never occurred to shoot someone shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of others' actions.

Driving a car is a privilege, not a right.  This privilege has to be earned and it can be revoked.  They can also preemptively prevent you from driving a car for any number of reasons.

Firearms are regarded as a right though.  Even though they really shouldn't be.  Seriously, read the second amendment and the history behind it.  It wasn't meant to give everyone the right to own a gun.
You are correct. The 2nd Amendment was not written to give everyone the right to own a gun.

It was written to prevent the government from taking that right away.

A person is naturally born with the ability to communicate and act in defense of themselves.

Those processes are natural.

What is unnatural is to attempt to restrict those natural processes.

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1721 on: April 12, 2021, 04:44:35 AM »


You are correct. The 2nd Amendment was not written to give everyone the right to own a gun.

It was written to prevent the government from taking that right away.

A person is naturally born with the ability to communicate and act in defense of themselves.

Those processes are natural.

What is unnatural is to attempt to restrict those natural processes.


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed



So, no

How is a state "free"?



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”




So unless you have these conditions in the 1stA (blm or georgia) then you are not being infringed upon.
And you can either vote, rally to vote, or throw a tantrum like a baby and get your gun.
If youve seriously exhausted all other measures and you think gunning up is the only option, youre mentally derranged and shouldnt own a gun.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 04:51:27 AM by Themightykabool »

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Jamie

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1722 on: April 12, 2021, 08:12:37 AM »
I never said we should ban cars. What I said was this...

"Countries with lots of cars have more pedestrian deaths too."

Yes, and your logic very clearly implies that, in order to reduce potential incidents (e.g., pedestrian deaths), we should reduce the amount of cars.

Well that's obvious.  How is it controversial to state that less things that cause death will cause less death?  I'm not sure what you are arguing against here.

If your primary goal is to reduce deaths by cars, removing cars is the obvious solution. How could this not be the case?

But that doesn't really address the root issues of reckless driving, like improper testing, rampant alcoholism, etc.

It actually would address the effects of all those issues, no cars means no more reckless driving, no more improper testing, no more deaths by drunk driving. No more accidental deaths. No more suicide by car.

Removing cars is the best way to reduce deaths by cars. Not that I am not sayign we should get rid of cars, I am saying that getting rid of cars would reduce car-related deaths. This isn't debatable.

Much like firearms -- reducing the amount of firearms in circulation does little to actually address the root issues of gun violence, like mental health issues.

Removing guns certainly would address the issue of gun violence. How does one be violent with a gun if they don't have one?

Read what I'm saying. I am not claiming that removing guns is the only solution or the best solution or that we should start trying to confenscate them with home raids and take your guns from your cold dead hands. I'm simply saying that lots of guns leads to lots of gun deaths. Reducing the number of guns certainly is a part of the solution, and mental health issues and violence is another part.

Less guns means less death by guns. What is hard to understand here?

whooosh
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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JJA

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1723 on: April 12, 2021, 09:38:17 AM »
whooosh

All righty then, guess we're done here. :D

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Lorddave

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1724 on: April 12, 2021, 01:44:15 PM »
A person is naturally born with the ability to communicate and act in defense of themselves.

Those processes are natural.

What is unnatural is to attempt to restrict those natural processes.

Guns aren't natural.
Also also: Humans stopped being natural sometime around the invention of fire.  Cooking food isn't natural.

And while babies can communicate on a very very basic level "cry= something wrong" anything more complex must be taught.  They sure as hell can't defend themselves tho.  Not until they learn to.

So its more accurate to say "humans have the natural ability to learn".

And finally:
How does a gun defend you against say.... A missile?  You are already defenseless.  You can be killed without even being able to fire off a shot.  What you want is to feel like you can fight someone as weak as you and win.  What you want is to know that you could kill someone easily, assuming you had enough time.  Its not about stopping tyrany.  War has advanced too much for that.  You just need to be able to stop your neighbor.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Crouton

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1725 on: April 12, 2021, 02:52:17 PM »
I've been doing some reading on the history of gun rights and I'm starting to see a pattern.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Quote
In the slave states, the militia was available for military operations, but its biggest function was to police the slaves.

Quote
According to Pennsylvania attorney Anthony Picadio, the Southern slave states would never have ratified the Second Amendment if it had been understood as creating an individual right to own firearms because of their fear of arming free blacks, hence the emphasis on the phrase "well regulated Militia", introducing the Second Amendment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Cruikshank

Quote
The case arose from the hotly-disputed 1872 Louisiana gubernatorial election and the subsequent Colfax massacre, in which dozens of black people and three white people were killed. Federal charges were brought against several white insurgents under the Enforcement Act of 1870, which prohibited two or more people from conspiring to deprive anyone of their constitutional rights. Charges included hindering the freedmen's First Amendment right to freely assemble and their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

In his majority opinion, Chief Justice Morrison Waite overturned the convictions of the defendants, holding that the plaintiffs had to rely on state courts for protection. Waite ruled that neither the First Amendment nor the Second Amendment applied to the actions of state governments or to individuals. He further ruled that the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applied to the actions of state governments, but not to individuals. The decision left African Americans in the South at the mercy of increasingly hostile state governments dominated by white Democratic legislatures, and allowed groups such as the Ku Klux Klan to continue to use paramilitary force to suppress black voting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

Quote
The Mulford Act was a 1967 California bill that repealed a law allowing public carrying of loaded firearms. Named after Republican assemblyman Don Mulford, and signed into law by governor of California Ronald Reagan, the bill was crafted with the goal of disarming members of the Black Panther Party who were lawfully conducting armed patrols of Oakland neighborhoods, in what would later be termed copwatching.[1][2] They garnered national attention after Black Panthers members, bearing arms, marched upon the California State Capitol to protest the bill.[3][4][5]

It seems to me that this right to bear arms doesn't apply so much when it comes to black people.

I believe the only way we're going to get sensible gun control laws is if black people en masse start doing the same cosplay that the Oathkeepers engage in.  For some strange reason this is the only time when gun control is taken seriously.  One of life's great mysteries I guess.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1726 on: April 12, 2021, 03:08:08 PM »
haha ya

NRA was not founded on gun rights.
It was because after the war, some guys wanted to increase proficiency and started competing in marksmanship contests.
https://www.alternativeradio.org/products/smyf001/

chappelle 3:25 to 3:46


all for taking guns to the capitol unless its the panthers.
https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act
https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52496514
(and i wuold've included jan 06, but technically the guns were confiscated beforehand)



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Crouton

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1727 on: April 12, 2021, 03:13:03 PM »
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1728 on: April 12, 2021, 03:23:43 PM »
now is not the time to politicize.
it's time to offer prayers and thoughts.
the senators and house don't have any mechanism to solve such complex issues


...

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1729 on: April 12, 2021, 03:29:52 PM »
You guys have mass shootings on a near daily basis. What a shit hole joke of a country

Freedom my arse >:(

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1730 on: April 13, 2021, 12:39:44 AM »
now is not the time to politicize.
it's time to offer prayers and thoughts.
the senators and house don't have any mechanism to solve such complex issues


...

Never is the time according to some.  Is there a counter somewhere that resets after every shooting? How long is the allocated thoughts and prayer time with no one getting shot before politicians can discuss what to do about it?

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1731 on: April 13, 2021, 01:42:16 AM »
Trump was gping to run a the country like a business.

0days without a mass shooting.
0days without a sexual/ racial harassment in the workplace.

Right.....

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1732 on: April 13, 2021, 04:03:04 AM »
A person is naturally born with the ability to communicate and act in defense of themselves.

Those processes are natural.

What is unnatural is to attempt to restrict those natural processes.

Guns aren't natural.
Also also: Humans stopped being natural sometime around the invention of fire.  Cooking food isn't natural.

And while babies can communicate on a very very basic level "cry= something wrong" anything more complex must be taught.  They sure as hell can't defend themselves tho.  Not until they learn to.

So its more accurate to say "humans have the natural ability to learn".

And finally:
How does a gun defend you against say.... A missile?  You are already defenseless.  You can be killed without even being able to fire off a shot.  What you want is to feel like you can fight someone as weak as you and win.  What you want is to know that you could kill someone easily, assuming you had enough time.  Its not about stopping tyrany.  War has advanced too much for that.  You just need to be able to stop your neighbor.
Communication and defense become more sophisticated as people mature, no question. Babies though act in defense, however ineffective, no doubt.

At issue is the natural process. These processes are endowed by nature. Those who argue against the processes argue against nature.

So, you people arguing against the Bill of Rights as written in the US Constitution are anti-science.

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1733 on: April 13, 2021, 04:32:21 AM »
As i said


Let me know.when YOUR freedoms are being taken away

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Rayzor

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1734 on: April 13, 2021, 04:42:41 AM »
Americans are afraid.  That's why they want guns.  What are they afraid of? 

You guessed it,  ....   drumroll ....   other Americans with guns.   

I can't see any way out of the loop.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1735 on: April 13, 2021, 04:52:49 AM »
As i said


Let me know.when YOUR freedoms are being taken away
The discussion isn't about freedom and technically freedom isn't free or the sense of being free.

It is the issue of natural actions/reactions and that is what is codified in what is called the Bill of Rights.

Natural processes of humanity. Infringement, by the government, upon those natural processes is taking place everyday of our lives.

No doubt.

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Jamie

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1736 on: April 13, 2021, 04:56:03 AM »
The discussion isn't about freedom and technically freedom isn't free or the sense of being free.

It is the issue of natural actions/reactions and that is what is codified in what is called the Bill of Rights.

Natural processes of humanity. Infringement, by the government, upon those natural processes is taking place everyday of our lives.

No doubt.

WISHTOLAUGH's out of line usually, but I agree with him here.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1737 on: April 13, 2021, 05:05:15 AM »
As i said


Let me know.when YOUR freedoms are being taken away
The discussion isn't about freedom and technically freedom isn't free or the sense of being free.

It is the issue of natural actions/reactions and that is what is codified in what is called the Bill of Rights.

Natural processes of humanity. Infringement, by the government, upon those natural processes is taking place everyday of our lives.

No doubt.



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.






Unless youre blm let me know how yohr freedoms are being taken away

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Jamie

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1738 on: April 13, 2021, 05:07:10 AM »
Let me know.when YOUR freedoms are being taken away

That's easy for me -- downsides of being gay.

But it's been getting a lot better in the last few years. Seriously, these younger people are really, really on their A-game when it comes to treating us like anyone else, which I greatly appreciate. If only the policies would keep up...
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #1739 on: April 13, 2021, 05:09:14 AM »
Let me know.when YOUR freedoms are being taken away

That's easy for me -- downsides of being gay.

But it's been getting a lot better in the last few years. Seriously, these younger people are really, really on their A-game when it comes to treating us like anyone else, which I greatly appreciate. If only the policies would keep up...
What policies?