Denspressure vs Reality

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #540 on: November 24, 2017, 02:58:18 AM »
My model doesn't contradict itself. Your inability to understand it by reverting to stuff you think I've said is your major problem whether by not being able to grasp it or simply deliberate.
No, not stuff I think you have said. Stuff you have said.
I grasp your model. Apparently better than you as I can realise it contradicts itself.

One thing at a time.
Like I said, that is a two way street.
You want it one thing at a time, then you do it one at a time, not multiple things at once.
So go back to where I had just one thing and continue from there.

You do understand that my argument is about CONSTANT speed against the vertical, right?
And you are yet to justify why it must be constant.
Until you do, any situation where you are going up a hill and cut power applies just as well to refute your model.

Would you like me to bold the words and maybe make them bigger so you understand what I'm arguing about or do you now want to revise your thinking?
No. Perhaps you should start reading what people have said and respond to them rather than just spouting the same crap again and again?

Only under acceleration.
No, under every circumstance ever witnessed.
It doesn't matter if you were accelerating before or just cruising up at constant speed, you keep going up.

Nope, you immediately stop and then accelerate.
PROVE IT!!
This has never been observed in the history of man.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 03:01:39 AM by JackBlack »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #541 on: November 24, 2017, 03:01:17 AM »
Cutting off power at a constant speed when travelling vertically UP, your vehicle will stop dead and then accelerate back to the ground.
Incorrect., Cutting off power at a constant speed when travelling vertically UP, your vehicle will NOT stop dead.

Try throwing a ball straight up. Does it stop as soon as it leaves your hand?
You accelerate the ball vertically until it leaves your hand. It's called a springboard effect.
You will never ever get a constant velocity by doing this but you will get deceleration then a stop and then acceleration.


Fire a gun straight up. Does the bullet stop as soon as it leaves the barrel?
It is all the same.
Same as the ball, only in a different form.


If you cut "off power at a constant speed when travelling vertically UP" the vehicle will decelerate and then when the vertical velocity has dropped to zero will start to "accelerate back to the ground".
Nope.
If you cut of power at a constant speed vertically up you will cease to push through that atmosphere that you are ploughing each inch to keep that speed constant.
The only way you could possibly advance is to accelerate from that point and then cut the power.
If you are already at full thrust this would be impossible and that's why you can only keep a constant speed.




After the power has been cut the vehicle still travels vertically for a short time until it's velocity has dropped to zero.
Nope. the atmospheric grip and the energy burn against atmosphere below ensures that all you can do at full thrust is to power that particular space at that particular split second to keep you moving against and into it.
Take that away and your mass has no more push energy into the atmosphere because it has nothing left to push against underneath it.
You stop dead and then accelerate back to the ground.



Surely you can test this sort of thing yourself in a car up a fairly uniform slope.
A car does not stop instantly the power is removed, whether you are going uphill or not.
I've tested it and it's exactly what I said.

Test it yourself if you can understand what I'm trying to tell you, because at this moment in time, it's clear that you can't.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #542 on: November 24, 2017, 03:04:35 AM »
My model doesn't contradict itself. Your inability to understand it by reverting to stuff you think I've said is your major problem whether by not being able to grasp it or simply deliberate.
No, not stuff I think you have said. Stuff you have said.
I grasp your model. Apparently better than you as I can realise it contradicts itself.

Quite clearly you don't.
I don't think you've got any interest in trying to understand it, you're far too bitter and twisted for that.

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #543 on: November 24, 2017, 03:05:58 AM »
You accelerate the ball vertically until it leaves your hand.
Not always, if you are moving your hand at a constant speed then stop, the ball was going at a constant speed.
Even if it was, that is only until it leaves your hand.
Without inertia, what keeps it going?

It's called a springboard effect.
No it isn't.

Same as the ball, only in a different form.
Yes, same as the ball, and refutes your nonsense.
It doesn't stop dead like you need it to.

If you cut of power at a constant speed vertically up you will cease to push through that atmosphere that you are ploughing each inch to keep that speed constant.
No, that would be on a level surface. On a hill you are also fighting gravity.

The only way you could possibly advance is to accelerate from that point and then cut the power.
Or, if there was this intrinsic property of matter to keep on moving unless acted upon by an external force to slow it down.

If you are already at full thrust this would be impossible and that's why you can only keep a constant speed.
And then when you cut power you keep going, you don't just stop dead.


You stop dead and then accelerate back to the ground.
No, you don't. You keep on moving, slowing down gradually.

I've tested it and it's exactly what I said.
PROVE IT!
You have already shown yourself to be a liar so your words mean virtually nothing.
You need evidence, not just your baseless lies.

Test it yourself if you can understand what I'm trying to tell you, because at this moment in time, it's clear that you can't.
I have, repeatedly. Guess what? Never stopped dead. Always kept going for a bit, slowing down gradually.

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #544 on: November 24, 2017, 03:06:50 AM »
My model doesn't contradict itself. Your inability to understand it by reverting to stuff you think I've said is your major problem whether by not being able to grasp it or simply deliberate.
No, not stuff I think you have said. Stuff you have said.
I grasp your model. Apparently better than you as I can realise it contradicts itself.

Quite clearly you don't.
I don't think you've got any interest in trying to understand it, you're far too bitter and twisted for that.
No. Quite clearly I do.
As I have been able to refute it so many times and all you can do is bitch and moan, telling me to calm down or do it one point at a time, or just repeatedly lie and say you have explained it this shows I do understand your model.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #545 on: November 24, 2017, 03:09:57 AM »
You accelerate the ball vertically until it leaves your hand.
Not always, if you are moving your hand at a constant speed then stop, the ball was going at a constant speed.

Does the ball have it's own energy to keep a constant speed after it leaves your hand?

I'll answer it for you. NO.
The ball has no power to keep a constant speed at full thrust to push into the atmosphere.
Try and understand that something has to have an energy force that can keep a constant speed, vertically.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #546 on: November 24, 2017, 03:11:49 AM »
My model doesn't contradict itself. Your inability to understand it by reverting to stuff you think I've said is your major problem whether by not being able to grasp it or simply deliberate.
No, not stuff I think you have said. Stuff you have said.
I grasp your model. Apparently better than you as I can realise it contradicts itself.

Quite clearly you don't.
I don't think you've got any interest in trying to understand it, you're far too bitter and twisted for that.
No. Quite clearly I do.
As I have been able to refute it so many times and all you can do is bitch and moan, telling me to calm down or do it one point at a time, or just repeatedly lie and say you have explained it this shows I do understand your model.
You've refuted nothing because you have no clue what you're trying to refute.
You still can't grasp what I'm telling you even thought I've retold it numerous times.

Absolutely clueless or deliberate, Like I said.

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #547 on: November 24, 2017, 03:18:11 AM »
Does the ball have it's own energy to keep a constant speed after it leaves your hand?
I'll answer it for you. NO.
No, I'll answer it myself:
YES!!!
The ball has kinetic energy.

But lets go down your route:
The ball has no energy to keep its speed.
This means it stops dead as there is nothing to keep it moving.
So as soon as the ball is out of your hand it should stop dead and fall to the ground.

But it doesn't.
Denspressure refuted, yet again.

Try and understand that something has to have an energy force that can keep a constant speed, vertically.
Perhaps you should try and understand things, including the fact that your model fails to make even simple predictions about reality which are correct.

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #548 on: November 24, 2017, 03:19:32 AM »
You've refuted nothing because you have no clue what you're trying to refute.
You still can't grasp what I'm telling you even thought I've retold it numerous times.
You need to learn that repeating the same bullshit doesn't magically make it true.
You need to deal with the refutations rather than just repeat the same or similar refuted nonsense. Until you do, your garbage remains refuted.
And trying to avoid the issue by bringing up others doesn't help you.

Before you can honestly say your model hasn't been refuted there are so many things you need to address.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #549 on: November 24, 2017, 03:44:53 AM »
Does the ball have it's own energy to keep a constant speed after it leaves your hand?
I'll answer it for you. NO.
No, I'll answer it myself:
YES!!!

The ball has kinetic energy.
You're clueless.


But lets go down your route:
The ball has no energy to keep its speed.
This means it stops dead as there is nothing to keep it moving.
So as soon as the ball is out of your hand it should stop dead and fall to the ground.

But it doesn't.
Denspressure refuted, yet again.
Absolutely clueless and unable to comprehend.




Try and understand that something has to have an energy force that can keep a constant speed, vertically.
Perhaps you should try and understand things, including the fact that your model fails to make even simple predictions about reality which are correct.
Ask someone to help you out.

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rabinoz

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #550 on: November 24, 2017, 03:49:37 AM »
<< garbage deleted >>
Nope. the atmospheric grip and the energy burn against atmosphere below ensures that all you can do at full thrust is to power that particular space at that particular split second to keep you moving against and into it.
Take that away and your mass has no more push energy into the atmosphere because it has nothing left to push against underneath it.
You stop dead and then accelerate back to the ground.
What absolutely meaningless gobbledegook!

Of course you don't, "stop dead and then accelerate back to the ground."

Quote from: sceptimatic

Surely you can test this sort of thing yourself in a car up a fairly uniform slope.
A car does not stop instantly the power is removed, whether you are going uphill or not.
I've tested it and it's exactly what I said.
Have I got it right?
Are you claiming that a car can be travelling uphill at a constant 100 km/hr and will stop instantly if all power is removed?

Of course the car cannot stop instantly. If it did, that would kill all the occupants just as certainly as running into a concrete barrier.

Quote from: sceptimatic
Test it yourself if you can understand what I'm trying to tell you, because at this moment in time, it's clear that you can't.
Of course I've tested it myself.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #551 on: November 24, 2017, 03:54:40 AM »
<< garbage deleted >>
Nope. the atmospheric grip and the energy burn against atmosphere below ensures that all you can do at full thrust is to power that particular space at that particular split second to keep you moving against and into it.
Take that away and your mass has no more push energy into the atmosphere because it has nothing left to push against underneath it.
You stop dead and then accelerate back to the ground.
What absolutely meaningless gobbledegook!

Of course you don't, "stop dead and then accelerate back to the ground."

Quote from: sceptimatic

Surely you can test this sort of thing yourself in a car up a fairly uniform slope.
A car does not stop instantly the power is removed, whether you are going uphill or not.
I've tested it and it's exactly what I said.
Have I got it right?
Are you claiming that a car can be travelling uphill at a constant 100 km/hr and will stop instantly if all power is removed?

Of course the car cannot stop instantly. If it did, that would kill all the occupants just as certainly as running into a concrete barrier.

Quote from: sceptimatic
Test it yourself if you can understand what I'm trying to tell you, because at this moment in time, it's clear that you can't.
Of course I've tested it myself.
No amount of screaming is going to dismiss what I've stated.

Try using your brain and stop battering yourself into submission by refusing to use your logic.

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #552 on: November 24, 2017, 11:48:19 AM »
Does the ball have it's own energy to keep a constant speed after it leaves your hand?
I'll answer it for you. NO.
No, I'll answer it myself:
YES!!!

The ball has kinetic energy.
You're clueless.
No, I accept reality. Big difference.
I have never observed something stopping dead instantly. It has always slowed down.

Stop just asserting the same crap as if it magically makes it true.

You are still yet to justify why it needs to be at a constant speed.

No amount of screaming is going to dismiss what I've stated.
And no amount of repetition will make your baseless bullshit true.

Try using your brain and stop battering yourself into submission by refusing to use your logic.
We are using our brain and refusing to allow you batter us into submission.

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #553 on: November 24, 2017, 11:49:38 AM »
Are you claiming that a car can be travelling uphill at a constant 100 km/hr and will stop instantly if all power is removed?
To be fair, in his delusional fantasy world there is no inertia to keep them going so they would stop instantly as well.

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rabinoz

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #554 on: November 24, 2017, 04:13:17 PM »
Are you claiming that a car can be travelling uphill at a constant 100 km/hr and will stop instantly if all power is removed?
To be fair, in his delusional fantasy world there is no inertia to keep them going so they would stop instantly as well.
I dared not mention that verboten word inertia.

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Jonny B Smart

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #555 on: November 24, 2017, 08:14:32 PM »
The acceleration of gravity is 9.8 m/s/s. This also works for deceleration of an object traveling against the force of gravity. A rocket traveling straight up at 100 m/s will take just over ten seconds to slow to a stop. 100 / 9.8 = 10.2 seconds. (It would actually come to a stop a little sooner depending on air resistance.)  A car on a hill will slow due to friction plus gravity depending on the angle of the hill. Gravity will slow a car by 4.9 m/s/s on a 45-degree-angled hill. This has been known for about 350 years.
"Science is real."
--They Might Be Giants

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rabinoz

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #556 on: November 24, 2017, 08:43:27 PM »
A car on a hill will slow due to friction plus gravity depending on the angle of the hill. Gravity will slow a car by 4.9 m/s/s on a 45-degree-angled hill.
Slight correction, try 30°. Sorry.

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Nightsky

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #557 on: November 25, 2017, 12:28:10 AM »
Having read some of this nonesense it strikes me Sceptimatic never played ball as a child or has ever driven a car up a hill. His use of made up scientific terms to cover his inherent lack of any knowledge of the subject like ‘push energy’ makes no sense.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #558 on: November 25, 2017, 12:38:45 AM »
Having read some of this nonesense it strikes me Sceptimatic never played ball as a child or has ever driven a car up a hill. His use of made up scientific terms to cover his inherent lack of any knowledge of the subject like ‘push energy’ makes no sense.
The fact you mention ball tells me you haven't been paying attention like many haven't.


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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #559 on: November 25, 2017, 12:44:21 AM »
The fact you mention ball tells me you haven't been paying attention like many haven't.
Or it shows he has and realises that there shouldn't be any magic need for a constant speed before hand.
You are yet to justify this and thus it can be dismissed.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #560 on: November 25, 2017, 12:54:26 AM »
The fact you mention ball tells me you haven't been paying attention like many haven't.
Or it shows he has and realises that there shouldn't be any magic need for a constant speed before hand.
You are yet to justify this and thus it can be dismissed.
What in the hell are you babbling on about?

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #561 on: November 25, 2017, 12:56:27 AM »
The fact you mention ball tells me you haven't been paying attention like many haven't.
Or it shows he has and realises that there shouldn't be any magic need for a constant speed before hand.
You are yet to justify this and thus it can be dismissed.
What in the hell are you babbling on about?
I'm not babbling about anything, just continuing to point out your BS.

You keep harping on about constant speed as if it should mean anything.
You are yet to justify what that is needed.
Why does it matter if a car is going up a hill at 100 km/hr, then cuts power; or if it was accelerating as it was going up the hill and it cuts power at 100 km/hr?
In both cases you have a car going at 100 km/hr, which then cuts power.
Why should it matter?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #562 on: November 25, 2017, 12:59:32 AM »
The fact you mention ball tells me you haven't been paying attention like many haven't.
Or it shows he has and realises that there shouldn't be any magic need for a constant speed before hand.
You are yet to justify this and thus it can be dismissed.
What in the hell are you babbling on about?
I'm not babbling about anything, just continuing to point out your BS.

You keep harping on about constant speed as if it should mean anything.
You are yet to justify what that is needed.
Why does it matter if a car is going up a hill at 100 km/hr, then cuts power; or if it was accelerating as it was going up the hill and it cuts power at 100 km/hr?
In both cases you have a car going at 100 km/hr, which then cuts power.
Why should it matter?
It shouldn't matter, because this has jumped into this topic from the rocket topic.

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Nightsky

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #563 on: November 25, 2017, 01:13:33 AM »
In an effort to reach some conclusion, why not pick a simple situation that suits both parties and each performs a calculation to support their views along with an explanation. What the point of the argument is has become a bit lost.

When I was at school many years ago we did simple experiments using trollies on an inclined plane attached to a ticker tape. We simple measure space between the dots to determine the velocity and hence acceleration or deceleration.

The laws of motion are something that are well understood so to refute them would be quite some undertaking. Newton’s 3 laws of motion have been taught in every elementary physics class since physics classes were introduced. If someone is claiming to have found a problem with one or all of them, then please explain which of these laws are in error.



You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #564 on: November 25, 2017, 01:15:07 AM »
You keep harping on about constant speed as if it should mean anything.
You are yet to justify what that is needed.
Why does it matter if a car is going up a hill at 100 km/hr, then cuts power; or if it was accelerating as it was going up the hill and it cuts power at 100 km/hr?
In both cases you have a car going at 100 km/hr, which then cuts power.
Why should it matter?
It shouldn't matter
Good it shouldn't matter.
That means if you throw a ball up in the air, as soon as it is out of your hand it should stop dead.

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JackBlack

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #565 on: November 25, 2017, 01:17:45 AM »
In an effort to reach some conclusion, why not pick a simple situation that suits both parties and each performs a calculation to support their views along with an explanation.
He doesn't due numbers.
He will only provide qualitative analysis in complete isolation.

This is so he can avoid admitting his nonsense is nonsense.

The laws of motion are something that are well understood so to refute them would be quite some undertaking. Newton’s 3 laws of motion have been taught in every elementary physics class since physics classes were introduced. If someone is claiming to have found a problem with one or all of them, then please explain which of these laws are in error.
This particular discussion is regarding the first law.
He is claiming inertia does not exist, that if a car was going up a hill at constant speed and you cut power it would stop instantly.

The claims similar to the third law is him just spouting nonsense as if it should mean something.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #566 on: November 25, 2017, 02:35:22 AM »
In an effort to reach some conclusion, why not pick a simple situation that suits both parties and each performs a calculation to support their views along with an explanation. What the point of the argument is has become a bit lost.

When I was at school many years ago we did simple experiments using trollies on an inclined plane attached to a ticker tape. We simple measure space between the dots to determine the velocity and hence acceleration or deceleration.

The laws of motion are something that are well understood so to refute them would be quite some undertaking. Newton’s 3 laws of motion have been taught in every elementary physics class since physics classes were introduced. If someone is claiming to have found a problem with one or all of them, then please explain which of these laws are in error.
It's how the laws are applied and told which is the key to why we are duped.


Let's look at them.

First law: An object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by a force.

The law in itself is meaningless in one aspect whilst pretending to be something in another.
In reality none of it works.
An object cannot ever be at rest because there is always forces acting upon it and it, them. It's called atmosphere.
An object can never remain in motion at a constant velocity unless a force is constantly applied to it, so the claim that it's UNLESS a force is acting upon it, is a pointless waste.


However, if we go into fiction territory, this is when Newtons supposed law works, because people are now forced to confront the space ruse and the vacuum ruse that supposedly allows an object to be at rest or move in a frictionless void of nothingness, which brings us to another major issue.
If that's the case then there cannot ever be a force applied in the first place for anything to resist a motion or to change a motion.

The law is a nonsense.


Second law: Second law: Force on an object is equal to the mass  of that object multiplied by the acceleration of the object: F = ma.

So basically you apply energy to a dense mass and accelerate that mass or move that mass.
In simple terms what you put in as energy you get out as equal energy. Nothing more and nothing less.
Simple enough as long as it's used in the reality of the physical world we actually live in.


Third law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In reality it's no different than the second law in terms of what it means.

Basically you only get out what you put in, in equal terms.
Your action creates and equal and opposite reaction to that action.
Whatever energy you apply you reap the reaction of that applied energy equally.
This works fine and likewise to the second law in a real Earth environment.

Fictional space and rockets and such use these laws in the wrong way and in a deliberately duping way with the pretence of equal and opposite reaction to action without the use of atmospheric pressure.
It's clear nonsense and that's why these laws get abused.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #567 on: November 25, 2017, 02:36:40 AM »
You keep harping on about constant speed as if it should mean anything.
You are yet to justify what that is needed.
Why does it matter if a car is going up a hill at 100 km/hr, then cuts power; or if it was accelerating as it was going up the hill and it cuts power at 100 km/hr?
In both cases you have a car going at 100 km/hr, which then cuts power.
Why should it matter?
It shouldn't matter
Good it shouldn't matter.
That means if you throw a ball up in the air, as soon as it is out of your hand it should stop dead.
Springboard.
Deceleration.

Pay attention.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #568 on: November 25, 2017, 03:39:02 AM »
Regarding inertia, it's existence easily demonstrated by sitting in a spin chair. Sit down and put your arms out wide, give it a good kick to spin it, keep your legs in tight, then pull your arms straight in. If you find a good spinning chair, you will spin faster! No external force applied.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #569 on: November 25, 2017, 03:48:15 AM »
Regarding inertia, it's existence easily demonstrated by sitting in a spin chair. Sit down and put your arms out wide, give it a good kick to spin it, keep your legs in tight, then pull your arms straight in. If you find a good spinning chair, you will spin faster! No external force applied.
It's no different to cutting down the blades on a helicopter.
At first you have more resistance with longer blades whilst also using more energy.
If those blades could be snipped at that point you lessen the resistance but not the applied energy to overcome it, so now you have that applied energy overcoming the much less resistance of the helicopter blades, which would in crease the rpm.

It's just energy applied against atmospheric resistance.