Denspressure vs Reality

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2017, 03:51:34 PM »
You feel all forces but you don't generally register some with your mindset because you are used to it.
That's right.
For example, we don't feel the atmosphere pushing into us (which it does from all directions), unless it is significantly unbalanced and produces a significant net force, such as wind.

Alter any of them outside the normal standards and you'll certainly feel the difference.
They are outside the normal standards yet we don't feel the difference.
It's almost like the atmosphere has nothing to do with it.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2017, 04:19:26 PM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
I believe the explaination for that is that things that seem less dense actually have atmosphere trapped in them.  So a 1 inch cube of aluminum has more atmosphere trapped in it than a 1 inch cube of lead.  So they actually would have different volumes if you could squeeze the atmosphere out of them.

Please show us how that is possible.
If a block of aluminium has atmosphere trapped inside it, it should be possible to show the different element of the atmosphere (like oxygen and nitrogen) in an analysis.
Please present us some results of the examinations of metal blocks.
As an engineer I like to know about this research because I never heard of that.

?

sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2017, 06:09:32 AM »
How does denpressure explain what feels like gravity in a submarine?
Atmospheric pressure upon dense mass.

But the sub isn't in the atmosphere it's in the ocean and contains it own air. 
If I am in the front of the sub there is much more air behind me than above me.
Let say I am on the surface standing in a horizontal 10 foot diameter pipe that is 100 feet long.  I am not in the center but 10 feet from one end an 90 feet from the other end.
Both ends are capped and the pipe is lowered into the water.
I am 6" tall so I have 4 feet of atmosphere above me and 10 feet on one side and 90 feet on the other. 
Why do I feel a downward force and not a sideways force?
There is much more atmosphere on one side of me than above me shouldn't it push me sideways?
You feel all forces but you don't generally register some with your mindset because you are used to it.
However you will feel slightly different in a sub with the enclosed pressure but won't generally correlate it with anything other than a change of environment.

The same applies to an aeroplane under pressure, only opposite to the sub.
Alter any of them outside the normal standards and you'll certainly feel the difference.
I'm sure you'll know this if you've been on a sub or plane.
But that doesn't explain why I feel a downward force.  I am, at that point disconnected from the atmosphere.
You are pushing to the atmosphere and resisting the push back with your feet and body.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2017, 06:16:26 AM »
How does denpressure explain what feels like gravity in a submarine?
Atmospheric pressure upon dense mass.

But the sub isn't in the atmosphere it's in the ocean and contains it own air. 
If I am in the front of the sub there is much more air behind me than above me.
Let say I am on the surface standing in a horizontal 10 foot diameter pipe that is 100 feet long.  I am not in the center but 10 feet from one end an 90 feet from the other end.
Both ends are capped and the pipe is lowered into the water.
I am 6" tall so I have 4 feet of atmosphere above me and 10 feet on one side and 90 feet on the other. 
Why do I feel a downward force and not a sideways force?
There is much more atmosphere on one side of me than above me shouldn't it push me sideways?
You feel all forces but you don't generally register some with your mindset because you are used to it.
However you will feel slightly different in a sub with the enclosed pressure but won't generally correlate it with anything other than a change of environment.

The same applies to an aeroplane under pressure, only opposite to the sub.
Alter any of them outside the normal standards and you'll certainly feel the difference.
I'm sure you'll know this if you've been on a sub or plane.
But that doesn't explain why I feel a downward force.  I am, at that point disconnected from the atmosphere.
You are pushing to the atmosphere and resisting the push back with your feet and body.

What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2017, 07:33:03 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
I believe the explaination for that is that things that seem less dense actually have atmosphere trapped in them.  So a 1 inch cube of aluminum has more atmosphere trapped in it than a 1 inch cube of lead.  So they actually would have different volumes if you could squeeze the atmosphere out of them.

Please show us how that is possible.
If a block of aluminium has atmosphere trapped inside it, it should be possible to show the different element of the atmosphere (like oxygen and nitrogen) in an analysis.
Please present us some results of the examinations of metal blocks.
As an engineer I like to know about this research because I never heard of that.
I think you are exactly right.  I don't personally believe it is possible but I have seen scepti give this as the explaination.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2017, 07:47:44 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
I believe the explaination for that is that things that seem less dense actually have atmosphere trapped in them.  So a 1 inch cube of aluminum has more atmosphere trapped in it than a 1 inch cube of lead.  So they actually would have different volumes if you could squeeze the atmosphere out of them.

Please show us how that is possible.
If a block of aluminium has atmosphere trapped inside it, it should be possible to show the different element of the atmosphere (like oxygen and nitrogen) in an analysis.
Please present us some results of the examinations of metal blocks.
As an engineer I like to know about this research because I never heard of that.
I think you are exactly right.  I don't personally believe it is possible but I have seen scepti give this as the explaination.

And that where he is absolutely wrong.
His whole Denpressure idea is not working in the reality and he could not show one little evidence that it could be possible.

Most time he simply ignores any questions.
Or in case of questions that relates to vacuum or very low pressure that it simply does not exist.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2017, 08:21:54 AM »
How does denpressure explain what feels like gravity in a submarine?
Atmospheric pressure upon dense mass.
How does that explain why weight hardly changes at all for workers in caissons digging tunnels and building the foundations of large buildings?
Dig the hole and the hole fills with atmosphere...but from where and how does it work?
When you dig the hole you transfer each Earth dig away from the hole. This compresses into the atmosphere just as the atmosphere is pushed into the hole and so on and so on until the dig stops.



Work is commonly done under an air pressure of 50 psig (or 64.6 psia) or 4.4 times normal atmospheric pressure.
If the weight of these workers depended on the atmospheric pressure they would weigh 4.4 times their normal weight.
Were that true, they would have no chance of even walking, let alone doing hard work!
Yes they would but also they suffered death and health problems due to it.



Then at sea-level the density of air is 1.225 kg/m3, but at 10,000 ft is only 0.4135 kg/m3.
I have been at that altitude and untold others live much higher than that,
but at the top of Tioga Pass, CA, I most certainly did not weigh only 34% of my normal weight.
In other words, the whole idea that air pressure causes weigh is total bunkum!
Scales also suffer the same change. Think about it.


Yes yes, I know, I don't understand denpressure!
Exactly.


If anyone does understand it, please explain how to calculate the weight from the effect of "Atmospheric pressure upon dense mass".
The weights are already calculated but they factor in gravity as cause and effect and people just accept it.


Because Sceppy, like it or not, people like aircraft designers must be able to calculate the weight of their aircraft very accurately.
As above.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2017, 08:24:43 AM »
Dude jumped out of a balloon and fell at over 800 mph! Achieved this thanks to the thin upper atmosphere where there is less pressure or drag. “Why won't Felix reach terminal velocity before he breaks the speed of sound?

Terminal velocity, a concept familiar to skydivers, refers to the point at which a falling object stops accelerating. Drag, or resistance, is one of the key factors causing terminal velocity. Bailing out at a very high altitude, where the air is thin, should enable Felix to break the speed of sound before reaching more dense air that will create drag and eventually result in his terminal velocity.”

http://www.redbullstratos.com/science/speed-of-sound/
If his jump was ever real he'd be dead.
A simple high altitude helicopter or balloon jump in atmosphere is the best he done.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2017, 08:26:56 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
It proves it rather than destroys it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2017, 08:29:19 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2017, 08:30:40 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
I believe the explaination for that is that things that seem less dense actually have atmosphere trapped in them.  So a 1 inch cube of aluminum has more atmosphere trapped in it than a 1 inch cube of lead.  So they actually would have different volumes if you could squeeze the atmosphere out of them.

Please show us how that is possible.
If a block of aluminium has atmosphere trapped inside it, it should be possible to show the different element of the atmosphere (like oxygen and nitrogen) in an analysis.
Please present us some results of the examinations of metal blocks.
As an engineer I like to know about this research because I never heard of that.
I think you are exactly right.  I don't personally believe it is possible but I have seen scepti give this as the explaination.

And that where he is absolutely wrong.
His whole Denpressure idea is not working in the reality and he could not show one little evidence that it could be possible.

Most time he simply ignores any questions.
Or in case of questions that relates to vacuum or very low pressure that it simply does not exist.
I've explained it many times. I'm not asking you to accept it. Do as you wish but there's my explanation.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2017, 08:38:24 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
It proves it rather than destroys it.
Wrong!  Density is clearly defined.  Same size, different mass means different density, and same speed of fall.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2017, 08:39:13 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
It proves it rather than destroys it.

Denpressure relies on objects displacing atmosphere and the atmosphere pushing back. This would require the force on an object being proportional to its volume.

However, force is directly proportional to mass only.

Objects with the same volume but different mass and density are pushed with different force. This is totally at odds with denpressure.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2017, 08:58:15 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.

Than it should be measurable with a pressure gauge.
Also why does the atmospheric pressure sloshed?
Does it have inertia?
You claimed that gravity and inertia does not exist, but why does it exist with the atmosphere?

Can you show us research about your claim with trapped atmosphere in metal and why it is different in different materials?

Or can you show us how that could work in theory?

Can you show any research that would support all you claims?
Research that involves experiments and documentation of these experiments.

Or provide us with information how you came up with your idea and why do you think it is correct without any evidence.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 09:01:00 AM by Canadabear »

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Slemon

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2017, 09:30:17 AM »
Then at sea-level the density of air is 1.225 kg/m3, but at 10,000 ft is only 0.4135 kg/m3.
I have been at that altitude and untold others live much higher than that,
but at the top of Tioga Pass, CA, I most certainly did not weigh only 34% of my normal weight.
In other words, the whole idea that air pressure causes weigh is total bunkum!
Scales also suffer the same change. Think about it.
Sorry for butting in, just saw this bit and started thinking about it. I imagine Rabinoz's immediate response is going to be that when you're at those altititudes you can't jump 34% higher, and with that I'd just like to double check something. I remember a discussion we had a while ago about equal and opposite forces in vacuum, so for the mountain pass question would it be right to say that someone who tries to jump wouldn't be able to jump as high as one might think in your model precisely because there's less downwards force, and thus less to brace against the ground with?
So while in theory one could jump 34% higher, doing so would require being able to jump with the same amount of force that you can jump with at sea level, which wouldn't be possible. While you might be able to jump higher at greater altitudes, the ease won't increase nearly as quickly as it seems at first look.
Just checking in to see if I understand your model, it's fun to figure out.

If anyone does understand it, please explain how to calculate the weight from the effect of "Atmospheric pressure upon dense mass".
Well it'd be based on some specific constant of denpressure, an acceleration based on how much you're making air molecules stop their expansion (ultimately that's a velocity you're decelerating to zero, hence acceleration). Let's call the constant d.
Then you know that the denser an object is, the more force denpressure exerts. And on the flipside, the less dense an object is the more air can fit inside it so the less air overall is displaced. Let's call the density p.
And equally the larger an object is, the more air is displaced, so the more force denpressure exerts. Let's call the volume v.

So, increase either p or v and you increase denpressure, and they're the main factors, along with the constant d that depends on air itself.
Logically, the force due to denpressure, F, may be found by
F=dpv
Where d is some constant to be calculated. I think d=9.8m/s/s is a good value.
Sound good?

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2017, 09:34:39 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.
Except the atmosphere compresses in the front of the car.  If anything it should push you back when you stop and forward when you accelerate. 
This is what happens to helium balloons in a car.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2017, 10:05:35 AM »
scepti, imagine a metal sphere sitting on the table. Say it's a steel ball from a bearing.

Do you agree with these points?:
  • The sphere is solid steel: Iron, Carbon, a little Chromium, and maybe some other trace elements
  • There is not enough room for atmospheric elements in the steel's crystal structure.
  • Air pressure on the sphere is constant on the surface of the sphere.
  • The air pressure always pushes normal to the surface at each point.
  • The force is balanced in all directions, because the force of the pressure opposes itself on each opposite point on the sphere.
  • The sphere would weigh the same in a vacuum.

Which one is it that I can help you to understand?

?

sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2017, 10:27:56 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
It proves it rather than destroys it.

Denpressure relies on objects displacing atmosphere and the atmosphere pushing back. This would require the force on an object being proportional to its volume.

However, force is directly proportional to mass only.

Objects with the same volume but different mass and density are pushed with different force. This is totally at odds with denpressure.
You can  never have the same volume and different mass/density. Understand what volume means and then understand denpressure to see why.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2017, 10:38:10 AM »
Denspressure is destroyed by objects that have the same volume but different mass and therefore density.
It proves it rather than destroys it.

Denpressure relies on objects displacing atmosphere and the atmosphere pushing back. This would require the force on an object being proportional to its volume.

However, force is directly proportional to mass only.

Objects with the same volume but different mass and density are pushed with different force. This is totally at odds with denpressure.
You can  never have the same volume and different mass/density. Understand what volume means and then understand denpressure to see why.
Volume is defined, measure some items and give us some numbers.

*

Slemon

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2017, 10:42:29 AM »
Volume is defined, measure some items and give us some numbers.
Why is it every single post from you seems to be inane and pointless demands?
You're both using slightly different meanings of the word volume. For you, if you had a hollow sphere of radius 1 it would have the same volume as a solid sphere of radius 1 because the object basically occupies that much space. For Scepti that's not the case, he's just focusing on the amount of an object that's solid and excluding the parts that are gaps.
You're both right, just using different definitions, and if you tried thinking about it rather than posting irritating and useless questions maybe you'd have realised that.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2017, 10:47:37 AM »
Then at sea-level the density of air is 1.225 kg/m3, but at 10,000 ft is only 0.4135 kg/m3.
I have been at that altitude and untold others live much higher than that,
but at the top of Tioga Pass, CA, I most certainly did not weigh only 34% of my normal weight.
In other words, the whole idea that air pressure causes weigh is total bunkum!
Scales also suffer the same change. Think about it.
Sorry for butting in, just saw this bit and started thinking about it. I imagine Rabinoz's immediate response is going to be that when you're at those altititudes you can't jump 34% higher, and with that I'd just like to double check something. I remember a discussion we had a while ago about equal and opposite forces in vacuum, so for the mountain pass question would it be right to say that someone who tries to jump wouldn't be able to jump as high as one might think in your model precisely because there's less downwards force, and thus less to brace against the ground with?
So while in theory one could jump 34% higher, doing so would require being able to jump with the same amount of force that you can jump with at sea level, which wouldn't be possible. While you might be able to jump higher at greater altitudes, the ease won't increase nearly as quickly as it seems at first look.
Just checking in to see if I understand your model, it's fun to figure out.


Theoretically you could jump higher at a higher altitude but as we all know, the body would expand all of it's cells to equalise the lower pressure at altitude, meaning massive loss of ability to function the muscles.
It's a sort of equal and opposite action and reaction, like you said but the difference with the body is in it's inability to sustain the energy required.

However, as you mention, if the body could magically hold it's cells and muscle strength at sea level quality then jumping higher at altitude from a solid base would definitely be possible, whilst the landing would equally be much harder due to less friction.

But, like we know, it's not possible in how we actually are built and is one of the reasons why I always maintain that Evert conquering is not what we are led to believe....but that's another story.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2017, 10:53:30 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.
Except the atmosphere compresses in the front of the car.  If anything it should push you back when you stop and forward when you accelerate. 
This is what happens to helium balloons in a car.
Yes it compresses in front of teh car and has to decompress as the car keeps moving into it, which is why it's pushed around the car to fill the lower pressure created by the rear of the car moving away through normal atmospheric pressure.
That compressed air slams into the air at the back constantly and back onto the car which creates a natural reaction to action in equal terms.
The same thing is happening inside the car, except inside of it it's closed so acts like a internal compression tank which holds a compression as long as a speed is attained but sill immediately slosh once brakes are applied, which is why you see the actions of what you see with a person in that car.

?

sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2017, 10:59:36 AM »
scepti, imagine a metal sphere sitting on the table. Say it's a steel ball from a bearing.

Do you agree with these points?:
  • The sphere is solid steel: Iron, Carbon, a little Chromium, and maybe some other trace elements
  • There is not enough room for atmospheric elements in the steel's crystal structure.
  • Air pressure on the sphere is constant on the surface of the sphere.
  • The air pressure always pushes normal to the surface at each point.
  • The force is balanced in all directions, because the force of the pressure opposes itself on each opposite point on the sphere.
  • The sphere would weigh the same in a vacuum.

Which one is it that I can help you to understand?
The issue is in not being able to push a vacuum to measure anything.
You also have to remember that scales would have to function in this impossible environment.
Now I've heard many arguments about, " yeah but we can get so close to a vacuum as to be one."
No we can't.
We can get to a very low pressure and understanding why will also ensure you understand why the density of any object still has atmosphere in, whether it's clearly understandable or in the metal ball scenario, not accepted as having any.

jane understand my atmospheric evacuation from a container and knows how teh atmosphere can never be fully released.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2017, 11:00:40 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.
Except the atmosphere compresses in the front of the car.  If anything it should push you back when you stop and forward when you accelerate. 
This is what happens to helium balloons in a car.
Yes it compresses in front of teh car and has to decompress as the car keeps moving into it, which is why it's pushed around the car to fill the lower pressure created by the rear of the car moving away through normal atmospheric pressure.
That compressed air slams into the air at the back constantly and back onto the car which creates a natural reaction to action in equal terms.
The same thing is happening inside the car, except inside of it it's closed so acts like a internal compression tank which holds a compression as long as a speed is attained but sill immediately slosh once brakes are applied, which is why you see the actions of what you see with a person in that car.

Still no explanation why I do not feel the pressure at the back of my body.
I only feel the pressure from the belt that holds me back.
With your idea I should feel the same pressure at my back from the atmosphere.

Please explain that for us.

Also you could address my other questions.

?

sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2017, 11:02:14 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.
Except the atmosphere compresses in the front of the car.  If anything it should push you back when you stop and forward when you accelerate. 
This is what happens to helium balloons in a car.
Yes it compresses in front of teh car and has to decompress as the car keeps moving into it, which is why it's pushed around the car to fill the lower pressure created by the rear of the car moving away through normal atmospheric pressure.
That compressed air slams into the air at the back constantly and back onto the car which creates a natural reaction to action in equal terms.
The same thing is happening inside the car, except inside of it it's closed so acts like a internal compression tank which holds a compression as long as a speed is attained but sill immediately slosh once brakes are applied, which is why you see the actions of what you see with a person in that car.

Still no explanation why I do not feel the pressure at the back of my body.
I only feel the pressure from the belt that holds me back.
With your idea I should feel the same pressure at my back from the atmosphere.

Please explain that for us.

Also you could address my other questions.
Sometimes you have to look a bit deeper into answers.
Try it.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2017, 11:05:05 AM »
scepti, imagine a metal sphere sitting on the table. Say it's a steel ball from a bearing.

Do you agree with these points?:
  • The sphere is solid steel: Iron, Carbon, a little Chromium, and maybe some other trace elements
  • There is not enough room for atmospheric elements in the steel's crystal structure.
  • Air pressure on the sphere is constant on the surface of the sphere.
  • The air pressure always pushes normal to the surface at each point.
  • The force is balanced in all directions, because the force of the pressure opposes itself on each opposite point on the sphere.
  • The sphere would weigh the same in a vacuum.

Which one is it that I can help you to understand?
The issue is in not being able to push a vacuum to measure anything.
You also have to remember that scales would have to function in this impossible environment.
Now I've heard many arguments about, " yeah but we can get so close to a vacuum as to be one."
No we can't.
We can get to a very low pressure and understanding why will also ensure you understand why the density of any object still has atmosphere in, whether it's clearly understandable or in the metal ball scenario, not accepted as having any.

jane understand my atmospheric evacuation from a container and knows how teh atmosphere can never be fully released.

Are you saying that you agree to points 1 through 5 and that I should help you understand 6?

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2017, 11:05:50 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.
Except the atmosphere compresses in the front of the car.  If anything it should push you back when you stop and forward when you accelerate. 
This is what happens to helium balloons in a car.
Yes it compresses in front of teh car and has to decompress as the car keeps moving into it, which is why it's pushed around the car to fill the lower pressure created by the rear of the car moving away through normal atmospheric pressure.
That compressed air slams into the air at the back constantly and back onto the car which creates a natural reaction to action in equal terms.
The same thing is happening inside the car, except inside of it it's closed so acts like a internal compression tank which holds a compression as long as a speed is attained but sill immediately slosh once brakes are applied, which is why you see the actions of what you see with a person in that car.

Still no explanation why I do not feel the pressure at the back of my body.
I only feel the pressure from the belt that holds me back.
With your idea I should feel the same pressure at my back from the atmosphere.

Please explain that for us.

Also you could address my other questions.
Sometimes you have to look a bit deeper into answers.
Try it.

It is not explained where the pressure of the sloshing atmosphere act on my body.
It can not my back because I do not feel it.

You have to explain it better that it is understandable.

?

sceptimatic

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Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2017, 11:22:27 AM »
scepti, imagine a metal sphere sitting on the table. Say it's a steel ball from a bearing.

Do you agree with these points?:
  • The sphere is solid steel: Iron, Carbon, a little Chromium, and maybe some other trace elements
  • There is not enough room for atmospheric elements in the steel's crystal structure.
  • Air pressure on the sphere is constant on the surface of the sphere.
  • The air pressure always pushes normal to the surface at each point.
  • The force is balanced in all directions, because the force of the pressure opposes itself on each opposite point on the sphere.
  • The sphere would weigh the same in a vacuum.

Which one is it that I can help you to understand?
The issue is in not being able to push a vacuum to measure anything.
You also have to remember that scales would have to function in this impossible environment.
Now I've heard many arguments about, " yeah but we can get so close to a vacuum as to be one."
No we can't.
We can get to a very low pressure and understanding why will also ensure you understand why the density of any object still has atmosphere in, whether it's clearly understandable or in the metal ball scenario, not accepted as having any.

jane understand my atmospheric evacuation from a container and knows how teh atmosphere can never be fully released.

Are you saying that you agree to points 1 through 5 and that I should help you understand 6?
I'm saying it can't be done.

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2017, 11:25:54 AM »
scepti, imagine a metal sphere sitting on the table. Say it's a steel ball from a bearing.

Do you agree with these points?:
  • The sphere is solid steel: Iron, Carbon, a little Chromium, and maybe some other trace elements
  • There is not enough room for atmospheric elements in the steel's crystal structure.
  • Air pressure on the sphere is constant on the surface of the sphere.
  • The air pressure always pushes normal to the surface at each point.
  • The force is balanced in all directions, because the force of the pressure opposes itself on each opposite point on the sphere.
  • The sphere would weigh the same in a vacuum.

Which one is it that I can help you to understand?
The issue is in not being able to push a vacuum to measure anything.
You also have to remember that scales would have to function in this impossible environment.
Now I've heard many arguments about, " yeah but we can get so close to a vacuum as to be one."
No we can't.
We can get to a very low pressure and understanding why will also ensure you understand why the density of any object still has atmosphere in, whether it's clearly understandable or in the metal ball scenario, not accepted as having any.

jane understand my atmospheric evacuation from a container and knows how teh atmosphere can never be fully released.

Are you saying that you agree to points 1 through 5 and that I should help you understand 6?
I'm saying it can't be done.
Do you agree with points 1 through 5?

Re: Denspressure vs Reality
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2017, 11:26:10 AM »


What dies push my body forward when I slow down in my car?
The slosh of atmospheric compressed air.
Except the atmosphere compresses in the front of the car.  If anything it should push you back when you stop and forward when you accelerate. 
This is what happens to helium balloons in a car.
Yes it compresses in front of teh car and has to decompress as the car keeps moving into it, which is why it's pushed around the car to fill the lower pressure created by the rear of the car moving away through normal atmospheric pressure.
That compressed air slams into the air at the back constantly and back onto the car which creates a natural reaction to action in equal terms.
The same thing is happening inside the car, except inside of it it's closed so acts like a internal compression tank which holds a compression as long as a speed is attained but sill immediately slosh once brakes are applied, which is why you see the actions of what you see with a person in that car.
I'm really not following you on this.  From what I can tell you say it is the air pressure pushing you forward but the air pressure is now greater in the front of the car so it should be pushing you back like it does the helium balloons.