sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #270 on: February 08, 2018, 04:26:51 PM »
The jackbot has to learn to derive a proper Sagnac formula.
Its derivation has nothing to do with the Sagnac.
Again, no idea who your imaginary fiend is, but I know how to derive the formula, and you even agreed with it.

So will you admit you were wrong?
That you do not use the area of the orbit?
That all the times you tried to, you were wrong?

Once we get past that we can move on.

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rabinoz

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #271 on: February 08, 2018, 06:12:41 PM »
The jackbot has to learn to derive a proper Sagnac formula.

Its derivation has nothing to do with the Sagnac.

<< Why do you insist on posting the whole lot of this over and over? Why not post a reference to one copy? >>
;D ;D ;D So your derivation of the Sagnac delay has nothing to do with Sagnac!  ;D ;D ;D
Just maybe then "your derivation of the Sagnac delay" is not the "Sagnac delay".

By the way, is there a reference to demonstrate that Wang's PGM FOG does actually measure absolute linear motion?

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sandokhan

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #272 on: February 08, 2018, 10:15:11 PM »
This is how the Sagnac phase shift is calculated:


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf

http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf

ONE TERM FOR THE SAGNAC. NOT TWO TERMS. ONE SPEED. NOT TWO SPEEDS. NO NEGATIVE TERMS INCLUDED.

The jackbot's derivation IS NOT THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

The poor jackbot has no idea that the correct Sagnac phase shift has only one term, and certainly contains no negative term at all.


Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


The jackbot's derivation has led to a complete and utter failure.

Two terms for the Sagnac, one of which is negative.

But this is not the Sagnac phase shift.

The Sagnac shift INVOLVED ONLY ONE FORMULA.


Like this one.

SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.



As for the rabbibot, ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE could mix the notions of the phase conjugate mirrors and FOC up.

The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.

Here is the formula for the rotating linear segment:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ

The phase conjugate mirror can be used in FIBER OPTIC GYROS, but that is a different subject altogether.

THE PHASE CONJUGATE MIRROR CAN BE USED DIRECTLY TO VALIDATE THE UNIFORM MOTION FOR THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT.

https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf (pg 7-8, fig. 10a)

The paper offers ample references which prove that the use of the phase conjugate mirror validates uniform translational motion for the Sagnac.


The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.

Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #273 on: February 08, 2018, 10:27:11 PM »

Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #274 on: February 08, 2018, 11:12:32 PM »
This is how the Sagnac phase shift is calculated:
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm
http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf
http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf
Yes, dt=4Aw/c^2.
Just like I showed, and just like you agreed.
Importantly, A is the area of the loop.

So do you admit you were wrong in claiming A was the area of the orbit?
Yes or no?

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rabinoz

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #275 on: February 08, 2018, 11:13:26 PM »
This is how the Sagnac phase shift is calculated:

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm
Which results in a Sagnac delay of:
Containing ONLY the area, A, and the angular velocity, ω.
There is no mention of the location of the centre of rotation or the shape of the loop. In fact it goes on to say:
Quote
This phenomenon applies to any closed loop, not necessarily circular. For example, suppose a beam of light is split by a half-silvered mirror into two beams, and those beams are directed in a square path around a set of mirrors in opposite directions as shown below.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf
That's funny! When I read Kelly, it distinctly said that:
Quote
Sagnac derived the difference in time, dt, between the times taken by the light to traverse the path in opposite directions, as
dt = 4 A ω / c2                                    (1)
where small terms are ignored, A is the area enclosed by the light path, and c is the speed of light. Note that the interferometer that displays this time difference is on board the rotating disc.

Sagnac showed experimentally that the centre of rotation can be away from the geometric centre of the apparatus, without affecting the above result.
He also showed that, although the mirrors move as the disc rotates and as the light moves around the circuit, this movement has a negligible effect on the magnitude of the fringe shift.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf
Again exactly the same message!
Quote
The linear dependence on the rotational velocity has been confirmed by many experiments, whereas the quadratic term is too small to be measured in practice. In most textbooks result (5) is expressed by the fringe shift in units of the wavelength λ0
∆Z = 4 A Ω/(c λ0)
where, in general, the scalar product of the oriented area A enclosed by the light path with the vector angular velocity enters. One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis[/size], but depends on the cosine of the angle between A and .
That's enough, your references tell it all! As clear and unequivocal ststement as you can get:
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis[/size]

Really, Mr Sandokhan, I don't believe that you have the slightest idea of even what your references mean!

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sandokhan

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #276 on: February 08, 2018, 11:29:29 PM »
Only a physics illiterate bumpkin like the jackbot could derive a Sagnac shift formula which features TWO TERMS, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.


http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM.

Featuring the linear velocity.



ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2

v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


The jackbot's derivation has led to a complete and utter failure.

Two terms for the Sagnac, one of which is negative.

But this is not the Sagnac phase shift.

The Sagnac shift INVOLVED ONLY ONE FORMULA.


https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Sagnac_effect.html

ONE TERM.




THE JACKBOT'S DERIVATION HAS TWO TERMS, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


The Aharonov-Bohm is directly related to the Sagnac phase shift.

IT HAS ONLY ONE TERM.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1997318#msg1997318







http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf

ONE TERM.





ONE TERM INVOLVING EITHER THE LINEAR VELOCITY AND THE RADIUS OR THE AREA AND THE ANGULAR VELOCITY.

ONE TERM ONLY.


The uneducated and the physics illiterate jackbot has derived a formula which features TWO TERMS, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

This has nothing to do with the Sagnac phase shift.


One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis

Your trolling techniques do not work here with me.

Your input is irrelevant: these results are well-known and are NOT in dispute here.

The jackbot has derived A SAGNAC SHIFT WHICH FEATURES TWO TERMS, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SAGNAC EXPERIMENT OR FORMULA.


SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.


The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.



The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:32:37 PM by sandokhan »

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rabinoz

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #277 on: February 09, 2018, 12:59:53 AM »
Only a physics illiterate bumpkin like the jackbot could derive a Sagnac shift formula which features TWO TERMS, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.
Really, and why is that? Please explain.
It seems obvious that if the Sagnac loop is assymetrical and composed of n then during the working there could  even be up to 2 x n terms.
The if the centre of rotation is outside the loop, I would expect negative terms, all of which would be reduce to simply angular velocity and area in the end.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

ONE TERM.
Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.
So what? 

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html

ONE TERM.
Featuring the linear velocity.
So what? again! Obviously if the loop is circular and rotating about its center as in:
you can write the delay either way.

But, I'm not the slightest bit interested in any of you copy-pasta until face what your own references say!

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf
That's funny! When I read Kelly, it distinctly said that:
Quote
Sagnac derived the difference in time, dt, between the times taken by the light to traverse the path in opposite directions, as
dt = 4 A ω / c2                                    (1)
where small terms are ignored, A is the area enclosed by the light path, and c is the speed of light. Note that the interferometer that displays this time difference is on board the rotating disc.

Sagnac showed experimentally that the centre of rotation can be away from the geometric centre of the apparatus, without affecting the above result.
He also showed that, although the mirrors move as the disc rotates and as the light moves around the circuit, this movement has a negligible effect on the magnitude of the fringe shift.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf
Again exactly the same message!
Quote
The linear dependence on the rotational velocity has been confirmed by many experiments, whereas the quadratic term is too small to be measured in practice. In most textbooks result (5) is expressed by the fringe shift in units of the wavelength λ0
∆Z = 4 A Ω/(c λ0)
where, in general, the scalar product of the oriented area A enclosed by the light path with the vector angular velocity enters. One can show that the fringe shift is
independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis,
but depends on the cosine of the angle between A and .
That's enough, your references tell it all! As clear and unequivocal ststement as you can get:
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis


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sandokhan

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #278 on: February 09, 2018, 01:10:49 AM »
rabbibot, no one here is disputing the shape of A.

Only a PHYSICS ILLITERATE COULD THE USE THE WORDS "SO WHAT" TO DESCRIBE THE CORRECT SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.


http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM.

Featuring the linear velocity.



ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2

v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


The jackbot's derivation has led to a complete and utter failure.

Two terms for the Sagnac, one of which is negative.

But this is not the Sagnac phase shift.

The Sagnac shift INVOLVED ONLY ONE FORMULA.


https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Sagnac_effect.html

ONE TERM.




It seems obvious that if the Sagnac loop is assymetrical and composed of n then during the working there could  even be up to 2 x n terms.

The rabbibot's trolling does not work with me.

When it comes to the complex shapes of an interferometer, nothing beats the interferometer designed by Dufour and Prunier.




Yet, they obtained the correct result.

http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/pdf/Dufour_and_Prunier-On_the_Fringe_Movement_Registered_on_a_Platform_in_Uniform_Motion_%281942%29.pdf

A. Dufour and F. Prunier created Sagnac interferometers that were composites of moving and stationary paths, including stationary sources and stationary detectors. This was essentially to test if the relativistic approach could be distinguished from the classical approach.

In all cases of this experimental test, the Sagnac effect was the same.



THE PHYSICS ILLITERATE JACKBOT'S DERIVATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SAGNAC EXPERIMENT/EFFECT.

IT FEATURES TWO TERMS, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.


I would expect negative terms, all of which would be reduce to simply angular velocity and area in the end.

The rabbibot seems to be hard of hearing.

The Sagnac phase shift features ONE TERM ONLY. NO NEGATIVE TERMS AT ALL.

Please review the references provided above.


By contrast, the jackbot's derivation has this:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2

v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.



The jackbot's derivation is not applicable to the Sagnac effect.


The Aharonov-Bohm is directly related to the Sagnac phase shift.

IT HAS ONLY ONE TERM.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1997318#msg1997318





HERE IS THE CORRECT DERIVATION FOR A ROTATING LINEAR SEGMENT.


IT TAKES A SINGLE COUNTEREXAMPLE TO INVALIDATE A HYPOTHESIS.


SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.


The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.



The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.

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rabinoz

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #279 on: February 09, 2018, 01:58:10 AM »
rabbibot, no one here is disputing the shape of A.

Only a PHYSICS ILLITERATE COULD THE USE THE WORDS "SO WHAT" TO DESCRIBE THE CORRECT SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.
My "so what" referred purely to your placing any significance to "ONE TERM" and a "negative term in the Sagnac."
Only a PHYSICS ILLITERATE COULD fail to see that that more than one term and a negative term might be expected in the analysis of a loop of different sized segments with the centre of rotation outside the loop.

Quote from: sandokhan
<< I said I was not interested till you face facts!  >>
Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf
That's funny! When I read Kelly, it distinctly said that:
Quote
Sagnac derived the difference in time, dt, between the times taken by the light to traverse the path in opposite directions, as
dt = 4 A ω / c2                                    (1)
where small terms are ignored, A is the area enclosed by the light path, and c is the speed of light. Note that the interferometer that displays this time difference is on board the rotating disc.

Sagnac showed experimentally that the centre of rotation can be away from the geometric centre of the apparatus, without affecting the above result.
He also showed that, although the mirrors move as the disc rotates and as the light moves around the circuit, this movement has a negligible effect on the magnitude of the fringe shift.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf
Again exactly the same message!
Quote
The linear dependence on the rotational velocity has been confirmed by many experiments, whereas the quadratic term is too small to be measured in practice. In most textbooks result (5) is expressed by the fringe shift in units of the wavelength λ0
∆Z = 4 A Ω/(c λ0)
where, in general, the scalar product of the oriented area A enclosed by the light path with the vector angular velocity enters. One can show that the fringe shift is
independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis,
but depends on the cosine of the angle between A and .
That's enough, your references tell it all! As clear and unequivocal statement as you can get:
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis

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sandokhan

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #280 on: February 09, 2018, 03:00:06 AM »
The jackbot fully deserves the GOLDEN RASPBERRY award for the most disastrous, botched derivation for the Sagnac phase shift in the history of modern science.

By now, everyone here has understood where the jackbot went wrong.

ONE CAN ONLY USE ONE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

NOT TWO.

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


The two physics illiterates, jackbot and rabbiratbot (who seems to be abandoning the ship), are using TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

That is why the jackbot ended with TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS, one of which is negative.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm (most referenced paper used by the relativists themselves)

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R.

ONE RADIUS.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.


Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Featuring the linear velocity.


The Aharonov-Bohm phase shift also features ONE SINGLE TERM.


The rabbibot is a physics illiterate who does not have any knowledge of the correct formula for the Sagnac phase shift.

HERE IS THE CORRECT DERIVATION FOR A ROTATING LINEAR SEGMENT.


IT TAKES A SINGLE COUNTEREXAMPLE TO INVALIDATE A HYPOTHESIS.


SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.


The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.



The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.


« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 03:38:06 AM by sandokhan »

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #281 on: February 09, 2018, 03:41:33 AM »
<< Nobody's interested in you copy-pasta! >>
I can post my own, see!

Your references tell it all! As clear and unequivocal statement as you can get:
Quote from: W. Engelhardt
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis

From ypur own reference: Classical and Relativistic Derivation of the Sagnac Effect, W. Engelhardt

Quote from: sandokhan
<< I said I was not interested till you face facts!  >>
Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf
That's funny! When I read Kelly, it distinctly said that:
Quote
Sagnac derived the difference in time, dt, between the times taken by the light to traverse the path in opposite directions, as
dt = 4 A ω / c2                                    (1)
where small terms are ignored, A is the area enclosed by the light path, and c is the speed of light. Note that the interferometer that displays this time difference is on board the rotating disc.

Sagnac showed experimentally that the centre of rotation can be away from the geometric centre of the apparatus, without affecting the above result.
He also showed that, although the mirrors move as the disc rotates and as the light moves around the circuit, this movement has a negligible effect on the magnitude of the fringe shift.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf
Again exactly the same message!
Quote
The linear dependence on the rotational velocity has been confirmed by many experiments, whereas the quadratic term is too small to be measured in practice. In most textbooks result (5) is expressed by the fringe shift in units of the wavelength λ0
∆Z = 4 A Ω/(c λ0)
where, in general, the scalar product of the oriented area A enclosed by the light path with the vector angular velocity enters. One can show that the fringe shift is
independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis,
but depends on the cosine of the angle between A and .
Your references tell it all! How much clearer statement can you get than this?
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis

Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #282 on: February 09, 2018, 03:41:44 AM »
Only a physics illiterate
Only a complete imbecile or a pathetic troll could fail as hard as you.
You take ages just to accept the derivation, and then even after you do, you still act like it is wrong.
You even go and provide references which show that is right.
You are arguing against yourself.

could derive a Sagnac shift formula which features TWO TERMS, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.
It features several terms, multiplied and divided together.
All derivations for a ring interferometer have 2 terms. One for each beam.
But these can be eliminated.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

ONE TERM.
Not very bright are you?
Notice the 2 terms in brackets?
1/(c-v) and -1/(c+v).
Two terms, one positive, one negative.
So now are you going to say they are wrong?

Or will you finally grow up and admit you were wrong?

rabbibot, no one here is disputing the shape of A.
Except you, repeatedly.
You clam that A should be the area of the orbit, instead of the area of the loop.
You have done this repeatedly so you can pretend that for an interferometer on Earth the Sagnac delay should be greater due to the orbital than due to the rotational motion.

So are you going to finally grow up and admit you were wrong?

If not, fuck off.

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 6483
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #283 on: February 09, 2018, 03:47:23 AM »
JACKBOT IS A PHYSICS ILLITERATE!!!

Notice the 2 terms in brackets?

YOU PATHETIC IMBECILE!!!

The final phase shift INCLUDES ONLY ONE TERM, the jackbot's version final form HAS TWO TERM, TWO SPEEDS, ONE OF WHICH NEGATIVE.



The jackbot fully deserves the GOLDEN RASPBERRY award for the most disastrous, botched derivation for the Sagnac phase shift in the history of modern science.

By now, everyone here has understood where the jackbot went wrong.

ONE CAN ONLY USE ONE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

NOT TWO.

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


The two physics illiterates, jackbot and rabbiratbot (who seems to be abandoning the ship), are using TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

That is why the jackbot ended with TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS, one of which is negative.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm (most referenced paper used by the relativists themselves)

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R.

ONE RADIUS.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.


Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Featuring the linear velocity.


The Aharonov-Bohm phase shift also features ONE SINGLE TERM.


The rabbibot is a physics illiterate who does not have any knowledge of the correct formula for the Sagnac phase shift.

HERE IS THE CORRECT DERIVATION FOR A ROTATING LINEAR SEGMENT.


IT TAKES A SINGLE COUNTEREXAMPLE TO INVALIDATE A HYPOTHESIS.


SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.


The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.



The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.


The physics illiterate, the jackbot, uses TWO DIFFERENT RADII, a physical impossibility for the Sagnac.

That is where it went wrong.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #284 on: February 09, 2018, 04:05:55 AM »
<< Why can't you even believe the references that YOU presented in evidence? Yes, YOU think that you are the smartest person on earth! >>
Well, you are NOT even in the running for the smartest person on earth!

Your OWN references tell it all! As clear and unequivocal statement as you can get:
Quote from: W. Engelhardt
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis

Your own reference: Classical and Relativistic Derivation of the Sagnac Effect, W. Engelhardt
And again!
Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf
That's funny! When I read Kelly, he distinctly said that:
Quote
Sagnac derived the difference in time, dt, between the times taken by the light to traverse the path in opposite directions, as
dt = 4 A ω / c2                                    (1)
where small terms are ignored, A is the area enclosed by the light path, and c is the speed of light. Note that the interferometer that displays this time difference is on board the rotating disc.

Sagnac showed experimentally that the centre of rotation can be away from the geometric centre of the apparatus, without affecting the above result.
He also showed that, although the mirrors move as the disc rotates and as the light moves around the circuit, this movement has a negligible effect on the magnitude of the fringe shift.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf
Again exactly the same message!
Quote
The linear dependence on the rotational velocity has been confirmed by many experiments, whereas the quadratic term is too small to be measured in practice. In most textbooks result (5) is expressed by the fringe shift in units of the wavelength λ0
∆Z = 4 A Ω/(c λ0)
where, in general, the scalar product of the oriented area A enclosed by the light path with the vector angular velocity enters. One can show that the fringe shift is
independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis,
but depends on the cosine of the angle between A and .
Your references tell it all! How much clearer statement can you get than this?
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis

Get the message!

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 6483
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #285 on: February 09, 2018, 04:09:16 AM »
ratbinoz, you are not helpful at all to your PHYSICS ILLITERATE FRIEND, THE JACKBOT.

Your quotes are not in dispute here, which means you are just trolling along.

THE PHYSICS ILLITERATE, THE JACKBOT, USED A VARIABLE RADIUS TO START WITH.


The jackbot fully deserves the GOLDEN RASPBERRY award for the most disastrous, botched derivation for the Sagnac phase shift in the history of modern science.

By now, everyone here has understood where the jackbot went wrong.

ONE CAN ONLY USE ONE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

NOT TWO.

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


The two physics illiterates, jackbot and rabbiratbot (who seems to be abandoning the ship), are using TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

That is why the jackbot ended with TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS, one of which is negative.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm (most referenced paper used by the relativists themselves)

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R.

ONE RADIUS.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.


Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Featuring the linear velocity.


The Aharonov-Bohm phase shift also features ONE SINGLE TERM.


The rabbibot is a physics illiterate who does not have any knowledge of the correct formula for the Sagnac phase shift.

HERE IS THE CORRECT DERIVATION FOR A ROTATING LINEAR SEGMENT.


IT TAKES A SINGLE COUNTEREXAMPLE TO INVALIDATE A HYPOTHESIS.


SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.


The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.



The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.


The physics illiterate, the jackbot, uses TWO DIFFERENT RADII, a physical impossibility for the Sagnac.

That is where it went wrong.

Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #286 on: February 09, 2018, 04:11:59 AM »
[I AM] A PHYSICS ILLITERATE!!!

Notice the 2 terms in brackets?

YOU PATHETIC IMBECILE!!!

The final phase shift INCLUDES ONLY ONE TERM, the [I'm retarded] version final form HAS TWO TERM, TWO SPEEDS, ONE OF WHICH NEGATIVE.
If you would a single shred of honesty in you, you would see their version in the derivation has 2 terms, one for each beam.
Just like in my version, the derivation has 2 terms, one for each beam.
You would also see that the final version presented for both has only one term.
For them it was:
dt=4Aw/(c^2-v^2)
For me it was dt=4Aw/c^2.
Going to stop lying yet, or do you want to try and make sure everyone knows you are a pathetic liar with no shred of honesty or integrity, completely unable to even attempt to have an honest, rational debate?

Going to admit you were wrong yet?
Or do you want me to keep handing your ass to you?

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 6483
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #287 on: February 09, 2018, 04:14:43 AM »
JACKBOT IS A PHYSICS ILLITERATE!!!

HERE IS THE PROOF.

IT USED A VARIABLE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC DERIVATION.

By now, everyone here has understood where the jackbot went wrong.

ONE CAN ONLY USE ONE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

NOT TWO.

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


The two physics illiterates, jackbot and rabbiratbot (who seems to be abandoning the ship), are using TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

That is why the jackbot ended with TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS, one of which is negative.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm (most referenced paper used by the relativists themselves)

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R.

ONE RADIUS.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.


Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Featuring the linear velocity.


The Aharonov-Bohm phase shift also features ONE SINGLE TERM.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #288 on: February 09, 2018, 04:21:56 AM »
rabinoz, you are not helpful at all to your PHYSICS ILLITERATE FRIEND, THE JACKBOT JackBlack.
It anyone around here is a "bot", it's obviously YOU, as your responses are so predictable that we could almost write you posts for you.

I'll consider ceasing when you finally concede that the statements from your OWN references are correct and not before!

This clear concise statement:
Quote from: W. Engelhardt
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis.

Your own reference: Classical and Relativistic Derivation of the Sagnac Effect, W. Engelhardt
And again!
Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf
That's funny! When I read Kelly, he distinctly said that:
Quote
Sagnac derived the difference in time, dt, between the times taken by the light to traverse the path in opposite directions, as
dt = 4 A ω / c2                                    (1)
where small terms are ignored, A is the area enclosed by the light path, and c is the speed of light. Note that the interferometer that displays this time difference is on board the rotating disc.

Sagnac showed experimentally that the centre of rotation can be away from the geometric centre of the apparatus, without affecting the above result.
He also showed that, although the mirrors move as the disc rotates and as the light moves around the circuit, this movement has a negligible effect on the magnitude of the fringe shift.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.kritik-relativitaetstheorie.de/Anhaenge/Wolfgang-Engelhardt-Sagnac.pdf
Again exactly the same message!
Quote
The linear dependence on the rotational velocity has been confirmed by many experiments, whereas the quadratic term is too small to be measured in practice. In most textbooks result (5) is expressed by the fringe shift in units of the wavelength λ0
∆Z = 4 A Ω/(c λ0)
where, in general, the scalar product of the oriented area A enclosed by the light path with the vector angular velocity enters. One can show that the fringe shift is
independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis,
but depends on the cosine of the angle between A and .
Your references tell it all! How much clearer statement can you get than this?
One can show that the fringe shift is independent of the shape of A and of the position of the rotational axis

Then we might look at JackBlack's derivation, who it seems can actually do the maths himself, unlike you.

Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #289 on: February 09, 2018, 04:22:19 AM »
[More pathetic bitching and moaning, begging to have his ass beaten in every way possible]
Once again, I have provided a derivation which reaches the same conclusion as your references.
The area used is the area of the loop. Not the orbit.
It is a derivation which results in 1 "term" in the final formula.

Now are you going to admit you were wrong, or continually your pathetic temper tantrum?

Do you need a time out?
Perhaps a dummy to suck on?

*

sandokhan

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Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #290 on: February 09, 2018, 04:24:54 AM »
JACKBOT IS A PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

HERE IS THE ABSOLUTE AND UNBELIEVABLE PROOF.

IT USED A VARIABLE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC DERIVATION.

By now, everyone here has understood where the jackbot went wrong.

ONE CAN ONLY USE ONE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

NOT TWO.

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


The two physics illiterates, jackbot and rabbiratbot (who seems to be abandoning the ship), are using TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

That is why the jackbot ended with TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS, one of which is negative.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm (most referenced paper used by the relativists themselves)

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R.

ONE RADIUS.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.


Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Featuring the linear velocity.


The Aharonov-Bohm phase shift also features ONE SINGLE TERM.

Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #291 on: February 09, 2018, 04:28:42 AM »
Once again, I have provided a derivation which reaches the same conclusion as your references.
The area used is the area of the loop. Not the orbit.
It is a derivation which results in 1 "term" in the final formula.

Now are you going to admit you were wrong, or continue with your pathetic temper tantrum?

*

sandokhan

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  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 6483
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #292 on: February 09, 2018, 04:36:54 AM »
It is a derivation which results in 1 "term" in the final formula.

Yeah?

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2

Two terms!!!

THE JACKBOT USED TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

ITS FINAL FORMULA FEATURES TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS.

A SURE SIGN OF A PHYSICS ILLITERATE.


HERE IS THE ABSOLUTE AND UNBELIEVABLE PROOF.

IT USED A VARIABLE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC DERIVATION.

By now, everyone here has understood where the jackbot went wrong.

ONE CAN ONLY USE ONE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

NOT TWO.

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


The two physics illiterates, jackbot and rabbiratbot (who seems to be abandoning the ship), are using TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

That is why the jackbot ended with TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS, one of which is negative.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm (most referenced paper used by the relativists themselves)

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R.

ONE RADIUS.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.


Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Featuring the linear velocity.


The Aharonov-Bohm phase shift also features ONE SINGLE TERM.


HERE IS THE CORRECT DERIVATION FOR A ROTATING LINEAR SEGMENT.


IT TAKES A SINGLE COUNTEREXAMPLE TO INVALIDATE A HYPOTHESIS.


SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.


The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.



The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.


The physics illiterate, the jackbot, uses TWO DIFFERENT RADII, a physical impossibility for the Sagnac.

That is where it went wrong.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #293 on: February 09, 2018, 04:41:49 AM »
ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.
So, are you now accusing the authors of Mathpages of being "PHYSICS ILLITERATE"?

Quote from: sandokhan
Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.
Yes, "ONE RADIUS" because they are only analysing a circular loop rotating about its centre.
But there are TWO TERMS, one for each direction of the light and more terms might be needed if it were a rectangular loop.

Quote from: sandokhan
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.
Incorrect! TWO TERMS.
Are you totally incapable of understanding anything? All the examples you give seem to be analysing a simple circular Sagnac loop!

Look, from the above Mathpages, 2.7  The Sagnac Effect
Of course there is only one radius, but there are TWO terms, which when combined give the final answer, see:
TWO terms! One term is 2πR(1/(c - v)) and the other is 2πR(-1/(c + v)) and the second is negative!

Now, do you understand? If you do, show us YOUR analysis of a Sagnac loop with the centre of rotation outside the loop!

*

sandokhan

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  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 6483
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #294 on: February 09, 2018, 04:48:11 AM »
rabbibot, desperation time has set in, right?



WE ARE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE FINAL TERM, THE PHASE SHIFT ITSELF.

THE PHASE SHIFT HAS A SINGLE SPEED, A SINGLE RADIUS.

Have you lost your mind to compare the derivation with the final phase shift term?


Here is what your pal, the physics illiterate jackbot has done.

ITS DERIVATION FEATURES TWO SPEEDS, TWO RADII, IN THE PHASE SHIFT TERM.

This is what we are talking about here.

You are pathetic rabbibot.

It is a derivation which results in 1 "term" in the final formula.

Yeah?

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2

Two terms!!!

THE JACKBOT USED TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

ITS FINAL FORMULA FEATURES TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS.

A SURE SIGN OF A PHYSICS ILLITERATE.


HERE IS THE ABSOLUTE AND UNBELIEVABLE PROOF.

IT USED A VARIABLE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC DERIVATION.

By now, everyone here has understood where the jackbot went wrong.

ONE CAN ONLY USE ONE RADIUS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

NOT TWO.

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


The two physics illiterates, jackbot and rabbiratbot (who seems to be abandoning the ship), are using TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

That is why the jackbot ended with TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS, one of which is negative.


http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm (most referenced paper used by the relativists themselves)

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R.

ONE RADIUS.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE LIKE THE JACKBOT COULD DERIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2


BUT THIS IS WRONG!

The Sagnac shift is made up of one term, not two.

You cannot have TWO SPEEDS, only one.

There is no negative term in the Sagnac.


ONLY A PHYSICS ILLITERATE CAN STATE THAT THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT HAS MORE THAN ONE TERM.


Each and every reference available has ONLY ONE TERM and ONE RADIUS.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Involving the the linear velocity x radius x pi = area x angular velocity.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html



ONE TERM. ONE RADIUS.

Featuring the linear velocity.


The Aharonov-Bohm phase shift also features ONE SINGLE TERM.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #295 on: February 09, 2018, 04:50:57 AM »
It is a derivation which results in 1 "term" in the final formula.

Yeah?

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2


v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2

Two terms!!!
Big deal! The Mathpages derivation also had two terms, one positive and one negative!

Quote from: sandokhan
THE JACKBOT USED TWO DIFFERENT RADII.
Sure, two radii are necessary to calculate the velocities of the inner and out arcs of the loop!
You really haven't the slightest understanding of what is going on, have you?

You just "quote mine" for little snippets that you think seem relevant and patch them all together.

No wonder you are a flat earther with a totally impossible model.

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 6483
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #296 on: February 09, 2018, 04:53:46 AM »
But there are TWO TERMS, one for each direction of the light and more terms might be needed if it were a rectangular loop.

The rabbibot has lost it completely.

THE PHASE SHIFT FOR THE SAGNAC HAS ONLY ONE TERM.

ONE SPEED.

ONE RADIUS.


ANYTHING ELSE DOES NOT COUNT AS THE SAGNAC EFFECT PHASE SHIFT FORMULA.


Your pal USED A VARIABLE RADIUS FOR THE DERIVATION.

The Sagnac phase shift formula has A CONSTANT RADIUS.


Its use of the variable radius led to a final formula which features two speeds, a sure sign of physics illiteracy.


HERE IS THE CORRECT DERIVATION FOR A ROTATING LINEAR SEGMENT.


IT TAKES A SINGLE COUNTEREXAMPLE TO INVALIDATE A HYPOTHESIS.


SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA OR A LOOP

The biggest breakthrough in the physics of the Sagnac effect has been the use of PHASE-CONJUGATE MIRRORS.

In fact, had this technology been available to G. Sagnac and A. Michelson it would have saved them a lot of time and energy in constructing experiments and deriving formulas.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609202.pdf

Test of the one-way speed of light and the first-order experiment of
Special Relativity using phase-conjugate interferometers

Professor Ruyong Wang



This experiment shows us two important points. First, it confirms the phase reversal of a PCM and demonstrates the Sagnac effect in an arc segment AB, not a closed path. Second, it gives us important implications: The result, φ = 4πRΩL/cλ, can be re-written as φ = 4πvL/cλ where v is the speed of the moving arc segment AB (where R is the radius of the circular motion, Ω is the rotational rate).

If we increase the radius of the circular motion as shown in Fig. 6, the arc segment AB will approach a linear segment AB, the circular motion will approach the linear motion, the phase-conjugate Sagnac experiment will approach the phase-conjugate first-order experiment as shown in Fig. 4, and the phase shift is always φ = 4πvL/cλ.

The Sagnac formula for a straight line path which is rotating becomes:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


That is, the formula for a rotating linear segment is:

φ = 4πvL/c2

where v = RΩ


Using the values for v for both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac we can see immediately that vo/vr = 60.

A total refutation of the "analysis" signed the jackbot.


The phase conjugate mirror is A NONLINEAR OPTICAL DEVICE.

It has become the biggest technical breakthrough ever for the Sagnac experiment.

Unlike the traditional interference experiment with which the effective light paths constitute a closed loop, one can have a one-arm phase-conjugate interferometer.

NO AREA, NO CLOSED LOOP.



The jackbot does not know how to derive the Sagnac phase shift.

The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

Its derivation leads to TWO TERMS FOR THE SAGNAC, ONE OF WHICH IS NEGATIVE.

There isn't a single reference to support this drivel.

The Sagnac for the rotating linear segment shows how wrong the jackbot's derivation is.


The physics illiterate, the jackbot, uses TWO DIFFERENT RADII, a physical impossibility for the Sagnac.

That is where it went wrong.

*

sandokhan

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  • 6483
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #297 on: February 09, 2018, 04:57:34 AM »
Sure, two radii are necessary to calculate the velocities of the inner and out arcs of the loop!

Here we have a SECOND PHYSICS ILLITERATE!!!

THE SAGNAC PHASE SHIFT FORMULA HAS ONLY A SINGLE SPEED, A SINGLE RADIUS.


Take a look at what your pal did here:

The jackbot uses two radii to start with.

Now lets try 2 arcs, one at R1 and one at R2, where the sections connecting the 2 arcs are along the radii.
What this means is that going between them is the same for both directions.
In each one you have it going to the inner arc along a radii, and going to the outer arc along a radii, so the path length and time taken will be equal for those sections.


The jackbot is a PHYSICS ILLITERATE who used two radii for the Sagnac derivation.

Does the Earth use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ORBIT THE SUN in the heliocentrical version?

Of course not.

Does an interferometer placed at the surface of the Earth, in a lab, use TWO DIFFERENT RADII TO ROTATE AROUND THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?

Of course not.


Here is the full madness of the jackbot plainly exhibited for all to see:

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

For the system we are discussing, the interferometer is on Earth (or quite close to it), and thus R CANNOT be constant. Instead R MUST CHANGE AS IT GOES ALONG THE LOOP!

In the correct formulas for the Sagnac shift, R IS A CONSTANT.

Yet, the jackbot, our own physics illiterate, HAS R AS A VARIABLE.


But it has done something similar to this, again and again. It is constructing ITS OWN version of reality, its very own physical laws.  A sure sign of cognitive dissonance.


This is where the jackbot went totally wrong: IT USED A VARIABLE R FROM THE VERY START; by contrast, the correct Sagnac formula uses A CONSTANT R, a single value of R, and not multiple values of R.


The R values are the distance from the centre of rotation (the sun in this case) to the section of the interferometer. Both values are roughly 150 000 000 km.

Yes, I am using 2 different radii as the loop is composed of 2 different radii elements.


The madbot is using TWO DIFFERENT RADII, which is impossible for a Sagnac interferometer.


The Sagnac derivation HAS TO USE ONE SINGLE RADIUS.


Only a physics illiterate could comment like this:

Sure, two radii are necessary to calculate the velocities of the inner and out arcs of the loop!


Big deal! The Mathpages derivation also had two terms, one positive and one negative!

Another sign of physics illiteracy at work.



WE ARE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE FINAL TERM, THE PHASE SHIFT ITSELF.

THE PHASE SHIFT HAS A SINGLE SPEED, A SINGLE RADIUS.

Have you lost your mind to compare the derivation with the final phase shift term?


Here is what your pal, the physics illiterate jackbot has done.

ITS DERIVATION FEATURES TWO SPEEDS, TWO RADII, IN THE PHASE SHIFT TERM.

This is what we are talking about here.

You are pathetic rabbibot.

It is a derivation which results in 1 "term" in the final formula.

Yeah?

Thus dt=2*omega*alpha*R22/c2-2*omega*alpha*R1^2/c2
=2*omega*alpha*(R22-R12)/c2

v = ωR
v2 = ωR2
v1 = ωR1

s = Rφ (s = arclength)

dt = 2φωR22/c2 - 2φωR12/c2

dt = 2v2s2/c2 - 2v1s1/c2

Two terms!!!

THE JACKBOT USED TWO DIFFERENT RADII.

ITS FINAL FORMULA FEATURES TWO DIFFERENT SPEEDS.

A SURE SIGN OF A PHYSICS ILLITERATE.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #298 on: February 09, 2018, 05:00:56 AM »
rabbibot RABinOZ, desperation time has set in, right?
Not at all!
You simply will not face the fact that Mathpages is analysing a circular loop rotating about its centre, so ONE radius.
But, JackBlack is analysing quite a different geometry. The shape is defined by two radii and the centre of rotation is far outside the Sagnac loop.

But you are too thick or stubborn to recognise the difference.

JackBlack could have used an average radius and a loop radial width and then you might have been happy, but it means the same thing!

Quote from: sandokhan


WE ARE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE FINAL TERM, THE PHASE SHIFT ITSELF.

THE PHASE SHIFT HAS A SINGLE SPEED, A SINGLE RADIUS.

This is a different geometry and the two radii are part of the definition of the shape - nothing more.

;) ;) ;) But, where is your analysis? We are waiting with bated breath! ;) ;) ;) ;)

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: sandokhan lies regarding the Sagnac effect
« Reply #299 on: February 09, 2018, 05:03:47 AM »
<< Idiotic repeated rubbish deleted >>

Well, just settle it all and post your analysis, yes yours! Not copied from some paper.

Until then, just refrain from posting the same information over and over!