The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk

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The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« on: October 24, 2017, 08:08:38 PM »
Sandokhan has told me Relativity is easy to debunk and the Aether hypothesis is top notch and wins out, now it’s my turn. The luminiferous aether is easy to debunk, and with that, Sandokhans model dies down with it since it relies on this aether.

A basic experiment that geocentrists like to cite is the Michelson-Morley experiment, where the speed of light was compared in perpendicular directions and the result was negative. According to the Luminiferous aether hypothesis, the relative motion of matter through the aether should provide a directional change in the speed of light, so, with a rotating earth, it should match the daily rotation rate of the Earth. However, it didn’t, showing that according to the aether hypothesis, Earth is at rest in stationary aether (NOT rotating). It would also result in the orbit of the Earth around the sun if heliocentrism was correct, but no motion was detected. It then makes sense why geocentrists like this experiment so much and the aether.
From On the Relative Motion of the Earth and the Luminiferous Ether (1887)
by Albert Abraham Michelson and Edward Morley:
“Let sa, fig. 1, be a ray of light which is partly reflected in ab, and partly transmitted in ac, being returned by the mirrors b and c, along ba and ca. ba is partly transmitted alongad,

and ca is partly reflected along ad. If then the paths ab and ac are equal, the two rays interfere along ad. Suppose now, the ether being at rest, that the whole apparatus moves in the direction sc, with the velocity of the earth in its orbit, the directions and distances traversed by the rays will be altered thus:— The ray sa is reflected along ab, fig. 2; the angle bab, being equal to the aberration =a, is returned along ba/, (aba/ =2a), and goes to the focus of the telescope, whose direction is unaltered. The transmitted ray goes along ac, is returned along ca/, and is reflected at a/, making ca/e equal 90—a, and therefore still coinciding with the first ray. It may be remarked that the rays ba/ and ca/, do not now meet exactly in the same point a/, though the difference is of the second order; this does not affect the validity of the reasoning. Let it now be required to find the difference in the two paths aba/, and aca/.
Let V= velocity of light.
v= velocity of the earth in its orbit,
D=distance ab or ac, fig. 1.
T=time light occupies to pass from a to c.
T =time light occupies to return from c to a/, (fig. 2.)

Then . The whole time of going and coming is , and the distance traveled in this time is , neglecting terms of the fourth order. The length of the other path is evidently, or to the same degree of accuracy, . The difference is therefore . If now the whole apparatus be turned through 90°, the difference will be in the opposite direction, hence the displacement of the interference fringes should be . Considering only the velocity of the earth in its orbit, this would be .  If, as was the case in the first experiment, , the displacement to be expected would be 0.04 of the distance between the interference fringes.”
More here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Relative_Motion_of_the_Earth_and_the_Luminiferous_Ether

A basic search on Wikipedia reveals the results:
“The expectation was that the effect would be graphable as a sine wave with two peaks and two troughs per rotation of the device. This result could have been expected because during each full rotation, each arm would be parallel to the wind twice (facing into and away from the wind giving identical readings) and perpendicular to the wind twice. Additionally, due to the Earth's rotation, the wind would be expected to show periodic changes in direction and magnitude during the course of a sidereal day.
Because of the motion of the Earth around the Sun, the measured data were also expected to show annual variations.
After all this thought and preparation, the experiment became what has been called the most famous failed experiment in history.[A 13] Instead of providing insight into the properties of the aether, Michelson and Morley's article in the American Journal of Science reported the measurement to be as small as one-fortieth of the expected displacement (Fig. 7), but "since the displacement is proportional to the square of the velocity" they concluded that the measured velocity was "probably less than one-sixth" of the expected velocity of the Earth's motion in orbit and "certainly less than one-fourth."[1] Although this small "velocity" was measured, it was considered far too small to be used as evidence of speed relative to the aether, and it was understood to be within the range of an experimental error that would allow the speed to actually be zero.[A 1] For instance, Michelson wrote about the "decidedly negative result" in a letter to Lord Rayleigh in August 1887:[A 14]
The Experiments on the relative motion of the earth and ether have been completed and the result decidedly negative. The expected deviation of the interference fringes from the zero should have been 0.40 of a fringe – the maximum displacement was 0.02 and the average much less than 0.01 – and then not in the right place. As displacement is proportional to squares of the relative velocities it follows that if the ether does slip past the relative velocity is less than one sixth of the earth’s velocity.
— Albert Abraham Michelson, 1887 ”
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment#Michelson.E2.80.93Morley_experiment_.281887.29

The Michelson Morley failed to detect the rotation speed of the Earth that was assumed.

However, a variation of the Michelson Morley experiment done with a large ring interferometer to detect the sagnac effect of Earth’s rotation was done, called the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment.
The Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment was basically a larger version of Michelson-Morley; its perimeter was 1.9 kilometers. This was large enough to detect the angular velocity of the Earth. To make a simplification of how this works, imagine you have Earth, and an aether wind uniformly moving across it. The longitudinal lines north of the equator would be smaller than the equator itself, giving a difference in aether speed across earth since the aether wind crosses earth at the shorter north distance in the same time as the longer equator distance. So, a large ring interferometer would detect a fringe shift with a rotating Earth or equivalent aether wind.

The Michelson-Gale-Pearson ring interferometer:




The Fringe displacement expected from the Michelson-Gale Experiment was represented by a simple equation:



= Fringe displacement
A= Area in km^2
= latitude
c= speed of light
w= angular velocity of Earth
= Wavelength used

The experiment accurately detected the supposed angular velocity of the Earth. With the Sagnac effect, which the aether hypothesis was consistent with, revealed a rotating Earth. This implies one of two things with the assumption of the luminiferous aether:
1.   The Earth is rotating once per 24 hours in stationary aether.
2.   The aether is rotating around the Earth once per 24 hours, basically an equivalent aether wind.
Both of these are basically the aether and earth moving relative to one another at once per day as predicted by a daily rotation of either the stars dragging it across or the rotation of Earth.

But wait a minute, the Michelson-Morley experiment failed to detect this rotation or aether wind, the results are inconsistent, the aether revealed an earth at rest in stationary aether (or nearly stationary) while also matching rotation. This implies a failure of the luminiferous aether hypothesis to be consistent with both the Michelson-Morley and Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment, and therefore kills the aether, it simply doesn’t work.
“In 1924 Michelson and Gale used in Chicago a new fix interferometer. Both paths have exactly the same length. But one of E-W arm (DE in the sketch) is more than 300 meters located in the North of the other arm, which is by the way closer to the equator. The tangential speed of the Earth is not the same for both arms.
lac being the Chicago latitude, the result is a difference between the two duration of : t2 - t1 = (4 p L l sin lac)/(24 c2). Michelson and Gale measured an interference fringe displacement of 0,230 ± 0,005 fringe width (they performed 269 measurements) the theoretical displacement is 0,236. This is exactly the same experiment than Sagnac; It shows the rotation of the Earth.”
- http://editionsassailly.com/books/space.htm

Michelson-Gale-Pearson Experiment original papers:
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1925ApJ....61..137M&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1925ApJ....61..140M&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf

Modern optical resonator experiments have confirmed that there is no aether wind to the 10^-17 level:
http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/Publikationen/2009/Eisele%20et%20al%20Laboratory%20Test%20of%20the%20Isotropy%20of%20Light%20Propagation%20at%20the%2010-17%20Level%202009.pdf
https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.80.105011

Relativity explains both of these experiments just fine, there is no aether wind in which the speed of light varies through with motion and the sagnac effect is consistent with relativity as there is no inertial frame in which the device may be at rest but rather an accelerating non-inertial rotating frame, explaining both the Michelson-Morley and Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment.

Sandokhan, abandon your failed luminiferous aether hypothesis incorporated in your model and update your physics with Special and General Relativity. There is no luminiferous aether, it is best explained as a 4D space-time continuum (prefer GR but Minkowski space can work well with Special Relativity) with frames of reference defining motion along with inertia.

If you are going to create a flat earth model, do it without this luminiferous aether, it was falsified by having contradictory results with these two experiments.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

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NAZA

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 08:50:07 PM »
I agree.
It's time to bring flat earth theory into the twenty first century!


« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 08:51:53 PM by NAZA »

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rabinoz

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 10:00:31 PM »
Sandokhan has told me Relativity is easy to debunk and the Aether hypothesis is top notch and wins out, now it’s my turn. The luminiferous aether is easy to debunk, and with that, Sandokhans model dies down with it since it relies on this aether.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
If you are going to create a flat earth model, do it without this luminiferous aether, it was falsified by having contradictory results with these two experiments.
But, Sandokhan thinks that the earth is stationary and all the results from these experiments is simply explained by aetheric vortices or something.
You have read all of his Advanced Flat Earth Theory of course.
 ;D ;D ;D See you next year! ;D ;D ;D
Mind you I  think that  Sandokhan is a bag of hot air, so for once I'm more or less with you on this one.
Except on the "create a flat earth model" bit.

My reading of Michelson-Morley, Sagnac, Michelson-Gale-Pearson and Hammar's Experiment (See: Hammar's Experiment) when taken together prove that there is no aether and that the earth rotates.

The original Michelson–Morley experiment was not sensitive enough to provide conclusive evidence, but combined with Hammar's Experiment and many more recent Michelson–Morley type experiments quite settles that part.
See Michelson and Morley, Subsequent experiments showing the variation in c less than 1.5 km/s
and Michelson and Morley, Recent experiments. showing the variation in c less than  2.5 cm/s.

And the Michelson–Gale–Pearson experiment proves the rotation of the earth.
So it is proven that there is no aether and that that the earth rotates on its axis.

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 10:10:48 PM »
But, Sandokhan thinks that the earth is stationary and all the results from these experiments is simply explained by aetheric vortices or something.
The point here was that given the Michelson-Morley and Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment together, assuming aether, the Earth is rotating at once per 24 hours in one experiment and stationary in the other. Given this contradiction, the luminiferous aether fails as a hypothesis. Meanwhile, relativity can explain both easily, which Sandokhan despises.
And yeah, I did mention the modern optical resonators that find no aether to the 10^-17 level.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 11:01:10 PM »
You simply have not done your homework properly.

I reminded you of this thing several times before.

Moreover, you are using wikipedia sources, which speaks volumes of your failure to include the best bibliographical references.


The Michelson Morley failed to detect the rotation speed of the Earth that was assumed.

The MM experiment failed to detect the ORBITAL SPEED OF THE EARTH THAT WAS ASSUMED.

It DID detect the rotational speed of the ether strings/field.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1780340#msg1780340

"This is precisely what we find in the description given above by Michelson and Morley (albeit, they did not attribute it to a non-translating Earth). They tell us that: “The actual displacement was certainly less than the twentieth part of this.” A “twentieth part” of the fringe shifting corresponding to 30 km/sec brings us to fringe shifting corresponding to at least 1.5 km/sec. After they run this figure through their calculations, Michelson and Morley then tell us: “the velocity of the Earth with respect to the ether is probably less than one-sixth the Earth’s orbital velocity, and certainly less than one-fourth.” One sixth of 30 km/sec is 4.8 km/sec, which agrees precisely with the average of 4.0 km/sec in the majority of the interferometer experiments. In brief, the geocentric model has a simple explanation for the unexpected results of the Michelson-Morley experiment: the Earth is fixed and the universe and its ether rotate around it."

Still, since the measured ether movement came nowhere near the expected 30 km/sec, the science community invariably considered the Michelson-Morley results as “null.” There were a few voices, however, that did not consider the results trivial. As early as 1902, W. M. Hicks, made a thorough criticism of the experiment and concluded that instead of giving a null result, the numerical data published in Michelson-Morley’s paper shows distinct evidence of an expected effect (i.e., ether drift). Unfortunately, the science community has completely ignored Hicks’ paper.


The Michelson-Morley experiments were taken to a more precise level by Dr. Dayton Miller (Princeton University).

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm

"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect." — Dayton Miller (1928)


This alone debunks relativity.


The most significant development since Miller has been the
experiments of Yuri Galaev of the Institute of Radiophysics and
Electronics in the Ukraine. Galaev made independent measure-
ments of ether-drift using radiofrequency and optical wave
bands. His research "confirmed Miller's results down
to the details".

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722791#msg1722791

Yuri Galaev, Ph.D.; Senior research officer of the Institute for Radiophysics & Electronics National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, and corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences (RANS)

THE MEASURING OF ETHER-DRIFT VELOCITY AND KINEMATIC ETHER VISCOSITY WITHIN OPTICAL WAVES BAND Yu.M. Galaev The Institute of Radiophysics and Electronics of NSA in Ukraine


Dr. Galaev remarks:

Orbital component of the ether drift velocity, stipulated by the Earth movement around the Sun with the velocity 30 km/sec, was not detected [during the Dayton Miller experiments].


Dr. Galaev also concludes:

The method action is based on the development regularities of viscous liquid or gas streams in the directing systems. The significant measurement results have been obtained statistically. The development of the ether drift required effects has been shown. The measured value of the ether kinematic viscosity on the value order has coincided with its calculated value.


The most precise experiments ever undertaken in ether-drift detection thus prove that the Earth does not orbit the Sun at a speed of 30km/s.


With the Sagnac effect, which the aether hypothesis was consistent with, revealed a rotating Earth.

You cannot use the MGP experiment to further your relativity STORY.

It did detect drift. However, the experiment cannot be used to either support geocentrism or heliocentrism, without additional information.

Please read up on the 1881 experiment done by Michelson which is very conclusive:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1956136#msg1956136

Using a 600 nanometer wavelength of light, Michelson expected to see fringe shifts (or, as he called them, “displacement of the interference bands”) of at least 0.04 of a fringe width. The 0.04 figure corresponds to an Earth moving at 30 km/sec around the sun. If this was combined with what Michelson believed was the solar system’s apparent movement toward the constellation Hercules, the fringes should have shifted on the order of 0.10 of a fringe width. But Michelson didn’t see any fringe shifting close to either value.

The orbital Sagnac effect is completely missing:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1911899#msg1911899

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1917978#msg1917978

In addition, the orbital solar gravitational potential is not being registered either by the GPS satellites' clocks.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706


Thus, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are totally fulfilled:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.


Given the results of the Michelson experiment (1881) which proved that the Earth does not move through ether, the results of the Ruderfer experiment prove one thing very directly: it is the dynamical ether which rotates above the surface of a stationary Earth.



As for the relativity STORY, please pay attention:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg769750#msg769750 (there is no such thing as the space-time continuum)

It is very easy to disprove GTR.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1936995#msg1936995 (Dark Flow)

Dark flow has been described as taking a hammer and beating the living tar out of Einstein’s gravitational theory of the universe.

"According to the Big Bang theory, the Universe is about 13.7 billion years old; yet the gravitational attractor, tugging only on galaxy clusters, is some 32-34 billion light years away. Additionally, this gravitational force is unique and selective in its action; only affecting galaxy clusters, but not everything else. Gravity undoubtedly must affect the motion of all massive bodies and, therefore, since it is pulling the galaxy clusters, it should be pulling everything else to it, not just galaxy clusters, based on Newtonian Law.

In terms of Einstein, the identical problem exists. A massive object outside the Universe has warped space to cause galaxy clusters to move toward or away from it; that warping of space should do the same for all matter in the Universe."

"The 8π component in Einstein’s field equation, G = 8πT (in which G is the Einstein
tensor and T is the stress or energy-momentum tensor), was added by determining what
factor was necessary in order to make Einstein’s equation equal to Newton’s equation."

Dark Flow disproves both GTR and Newtonian gravitation.

It renders both useless and worthless.

You are going to have to come up with a workable flat earth theory which does not include relativity.

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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 01:17:17 AM »
update your physics with Special and General Relativity

Agreed.

Einstein, 1905:

"The principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is of course contained in Maxwell's equations”

We can infer immediately that Einstein had no knowledge whatsoever of the original ether equations derived by Maxwell, and based his false/erroneous conclusions on the MODIFIED/CENSORED Heaviside-Lorentz equations.


"Einstein claims that “The principle of the constancy of the velocityof light is of course contained in Maxwell's equations”.

If the Lorentz force had still been included as one of Maxwell’s equations, they could
have been written in total time derivative format (see Appendix A in ‘The Double
Helix Theory of the Magnetic Field’) and Einstein would not have been able to make
this claim. A total time derivative electromagnetic wave equation would allow the
electromagnetic wave speed to alter from the perspective of a moving observer."


Here are the censored Heaviside-Lorentz equations, USED BY EINSTEIN to justify his erronous claim regarding the speed of light:



HERE IS THE ORIGINAL SET OF JAMES CLERK MAXWELL'S EQUATIONS: THE EXISTENCE OF ETHER, AETHER AND THE VARIABILITY OF THE SPEED OF LIGHT:



"A solution to the original/corrected Maxwell equations indicates that these equations are invariant under the Galilean transformation.

Consequently velocity vectors are additive, which means that the speed of light can be exceeded.

The common representation of Maxwell’s [modified] equations is valid only for static systems.

The physicists at the turn of the twentieth century were unaware of this limitation. They assumed that Maxwell’s [modified] equations were universally valid (i.e.: applicable to any inertial coordinate system) and tried to apply them to dynamic systems which led to inconsistencies. But instead of realizing and correcting the error (by modifying Maxwell’s equations; [i.e., using the original ether equations published by Maxwell in 1861) they introduced the Lorentz transformation which was the foundation of the flawed theory of relativity."

http://www.omicsonline.com/open-access/back-to-galilean-transformation-and-newtonian-physics-refuting-thetheory-of-relativity-2090-0902-1000198.pdf















The most extraordinary proofs on HOW EINSTEIN FAKED HIS 1919/1922 DATA FOR THE SO CALLED EINSTEIN SHIFT:

http://einstein52.tripod.com/alberteinsteinprophetorplagiarist/id9.html


http://www.ekkehard-friebe.de/dishones.htm (scroll down to the section: With regard to the politics that led to Einstein's fame Dr. S. Chandrasekhar's article [46] states...)


http://web.archive.org/web/20070202201854/http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/einstein.html



HOW EINSTEIN MODIFIED HIS FORMULA RELATING TO MERCURY'S ORBIT IN ORDER TO FIT THE RESULTS:

http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Rethinking_Relativity.htm (scroll down to The advance of the perihelion of Mercury’s orbit, another famous confirmation of General Relativity, is worth a closer look...)


Dr. F. Schmeidler of the Munich University Observatory has published a paper  titled "The Einstein Shift An Unsettled Problem," and a plot of shifts for 92 stars for the 1922 eclipse shows shifts going in all directions, many of them going the wrong way by as large a deflection as those shifted in the predicted direction! Further examination of the 1919 and 1922 data originally interpreted as confirming relativity, tended to favor a larger shift, the results depended very strongly on the manner for reducing the measurements and the effect of omitting individual stars.


As I have told you before, you are going to have to come up with a workable flat earth theory which does not include relativity.

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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2017, 01:20:39 AM »
The luminiferous aether is easy to debunk

Let's put your word to the test.

ALLAIS EFFECT

REFERENCE #1

CONFIRMATION OF THE ALLAIS EFFECT DURING THE 2003 SOLAR ECLIPSE:

http://www.acad.ro/sectii2002/proceedings/doc3_2004/03_Mihaila.pdf

(it also shows that the effect was confirmed during the August 1999 solar eclipse)


The title of the paper is as follows:

A NEW CONFIRMATION OF THE ALLAIS EFFECT
DURING THE SOLAR ECLIPSE OF 31 MAY 2003

"During the total solar eclipse of 11 August 1999, the existence of the Allais effect was confirmed."

The authors indicate that more measurements/experiments have to be undertaken during future solar eclipses.


REFERENCE #2

CONFIRMATION OF THE ALLAIS EFFECT DURING THE SEPT. 2006 SOLAR ECLIPSE:

http://www.hessdalen.org/sse/program/Articol.pdf

The title of the article is as follows:

A confirmation of the Allais and Jeverdan-Rusu-Antonescu effects
during the solar eclipse from 22 September 2006 , and the quantization
of behaviour of pendulum


"The experiments made with a paraconical pendulum during annular solar eclipse from 22 September 2006 confirm once again the existence of the Allais effect."


REFERENCE #3

CONFIRMATION OF THE ALLAIS EFFECT DURING THE 2008 SOLAR ECLIPSE:

http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/jarp/index.php/jarp/article/viewFile/40/22

Published in the Journal of Advanced Research in Physics


Given the above, the authors consider that it is an inescapable conclusion from our experiments that after the end of the visible eclipse, as the Moon departed the angular vicinity of the Sun, some influence exerted itself upon the Eastern European region containing our three sets of equipment, extending over a field at least hundreds of kilometers in width.

The nature of this common influence is unknown, but plainly it cannot be considered as gravitational in the usually accepted sense of Newtonian or Einsteinian gravitation.


We therefore are compelled to the opinion that some currently unknown physical influence was at work.


REFERENCE #4

The Allais pendulum effect confirmed in an experiment performed in 1961:

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf074/sf074a05.htm


REFERENCE #5

Observations of Correlated Behavior of Two Light Torsion Balances and a Paraconical Pendulum in Separate Locations during the Solar Eclipse of January 26th, 2009:


http://www.researchgate.net/publication/235701910_Observations_of_Correlated_Behavior_of_Two_Light_TorsionBalances_and_a_Paraconical_Pendulum_in_Separate_Locationsduring_the_Solar_Eclipse_of_January_26th_2009

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/aa/2012/263818/

Published in the Advances in Astronomy Journal

Another independent confirmation has been obtained of the previously established fact that at the time of solar eclipses, a specific reaction of the torsion balance can be observed. During a solar eclipse, the readings of two neighboring TBs seem to be correlated. This fact demonstrates the nonaleatory character of the reactions of TBs. Consequently, the reaction of these devices is deterministic, not random. A solar eclipse is such a determinant, since upon termination of a solar eclipse, the correlation becomes insignificant. This conclusion is supported by the PP observations. The PP graph and the TB graphs showed obvious similarity, with the coefficient of correlation of these two independent curves being close to 1.

In particular, we wonder how any physical momentum can be transferred to our instrument during a solar eclipse. Gravity can hardly suffice as an explanation even for understanding the results of the PP measurements. The gravitational potential grows slowly and smoothly over a number of days before eclipse and then declines smoothly afterwards without any sudden variations, but we see relatively short-term events. Moreover, gravity is certainly not applicable to the explanation of the results of the TB observations, since the TB is not sensitive to changes in gravitational potential.

The cause of the time lag between the response of the device in Suceava and the reactions of the devices in Kiev also remains unknown. What can be this force which acts so selectively in space and time?

The anomalies found, that defy understanding in terms of modern physics, are in line with other anomalies, described in a recently published compendium “Should the Laws of Gravitation be reconsidered?” [14].


REFERENCE #6

Precise Underground Observations of the Partial Solar Eclipse of 1 June 2011 Using a Foucault Pendulum and a Very Light Torsion Balance

Published in the International Journal of Astronomy and Astrophysics Journal


http://www.researchgate.net/publication/235701885_Precise_Underground_Observations_of_the_Partial_Solar_Eclipse_of_1_June_2011_Using_a_Foucault_Pendulum_and_a_Very_Light_Torsion_Balance

http://file.scirp.org/Html/3-4500094_26045.htm

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=26045


Simultaneous observations of the solar eclipse on 06/01/2011 were carried out using a Foucault pendulum and a torsion balance. The instruments were installed in a salt mine, where the interference was minimal. Both instruments clearly reacted to the eclipse. We conclude that these reactions should not be considered as being gravitational effects.

REFERENCE #7

Dr. Erwin Saxl experiment (1970)

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70052.msg1892354#msg1892354

Published in the Physical Review Journal

Saxl and Allen went on to note that to explain these remarkable eclipse observations, according to "conventional Newtonian/Einsteinian gravitational theory," an increase in the weight of the pendumum bob itself on the order of ~5% would be required ... amounting to (for the ~51.5-lb pendulum bob in the experiment) an increase of ~2.64 lbs!

This would be on the order of one hundred thousand (100,000) times greater than any possible "gravitational tidal effects" Saxl and Allen calculated (using Newtonian Gravitational Theory/ Relativity Theory).


A TOTAL DEFIANCE OF NEWTONIAN MECHANICS.

For the same masses/corresponding distances of the Earth, Sun and the Moon, during the Allais experiment, the pendulum's direction of rotation changed from clockwise to counterclockwise, at the end of the eclipse it resumed its normal direction of rotation.

In order to arrive at an explanation, M. Allais considered a wide range
of known periodic phenomena, including the terrestrial tides, variations in
the intensity of gravity, thermal or barometric effects, magnetic variations,
microseismic effects, cosmic rays, and the periodic character of human
activity. Yet, on close examination, the very peculiar nature of the
periodicity shown by the change in azimuth of the pendulum forced the
elimination of all of these as cause.


Dr. Maurice Allais:

In both cases, with the experiments with the anisotropic
support and with those with the isotropic support, it is found
that the amplitudes of the periodic effects are considerably
greater than those calculated according to the law of gravitation,
whether or not completed by the theory of relativity.
In the case of the anisotropic support, the amplitude of
the luni-solar component of 24h 50m is about twenty million
times greater than the amplitude calculated by the theory of
universal gravitation.

In the case of the paraconical pendulum with isotropic
support, this relation is about a hundred million.

In other words, the pendulum motions Allais observed during his two eclipses – 1954 and 1959 -- were physically IMPOSSIBLE … according to all known “textbook physics!”


"Allais used the phrase “a brutal displacement” … to describe the “sudden, extraordinary backwards movement” of the pendulum his laboratory chief had seen (and carefully recorded!), even while not knowing its “mysterious” cause ... until later that same afternoon.

Here (below) is what those “anomalous eclipse motions” in Allias’ pendulum looked like; this graphic, adapted from Scientific American, depicts the mechanical arrangement of Allais’ unique paraconical pendulum (below – left).

The three vertical panels to its right illustrate the pendulum’s “highly anomalous motions” -- recorded during two partial solar eclipses to cross Allais’ Paris laboratory in the 1950’s (the first in 1954, the second in 1959); the phase of each eclipse that corresponded with these “anomalous motions,” is depicted in the last three vertical strips (far right)."



"This normal, downward-sloping trend is abruptly REVERSED!

From there, things rapidly got even more bizarre--

As the pendulum’s azimuth motion continues in an accelerating, COUNTER-clockwise direction … for the next 45 minutes; then, after peaking, the pendulum motion REVERSES direction (moving clockwise again …), only to reverse BACK again (counterclockwise!) … briefly [as the Moon reaches “mid-eclipse” (the central green line)] -- before abruptly reversing once more, accelerating again in a CLOCKWISE direction … before eventually “bottoming out” … parallel to the ORIGINAL “Foucault/Earth rotation” downward-sloping trend line!"

HERE ARE THE PRECISE CALCULATIONS INVOLVING THE ALLAIS EFFECT:



Dr. Maurice Allais:

With regard to the validity of my experiments, it seems
best to reproduce here the testimony of General Paul Bergeron,
ex-president of the Committee for Scientific Activities for
National Defense, in his letter of May 1959 to Werner von
Braun:

"Before writing to you, I considered it necessary to
visit the two laboratories of Professor Allais (one 60
meters underground), in the company of eminent
specialists – including two professors at the Ecole
Polytechnique. During several hours of discussion, we
could find no source of significant error, nor did any
attempt at explanation survive analysis.

"I should also tell you that during the last two years,
more than ten members of the Academy of Sciences and
more than thirty eminent personalities, specialists in
various aspects of gravitation, have visited both his
laboratory at Saint-Germain, and his underground
laboratory at Bougival.

"Deep discussions took place, not only on these
occasions, but many times in various scientific contexts,
notably at the Academy of Sciences and the National
Center for Scientific Research. None of these discussions
could evolve any explanation within the framework of
currently accepted theories."

This letter confirms clearly the fact that was finally
admitted at the time - the total impossibility of explaining the
perceived anomalies within the framework of currently
accepted theory.



An overview of the Allais effect (parts I - VII):

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1676115#msg1676115 (the Black Sun and the laevorotatory subquarks)

*

sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 01:22:26 AM »
The luminiferous aether is easy to debunk

Let's put your word to the test.

DEPALMA SPINNING BALL EXPERIMENT

Dr. Bruce DePalma, MIT and Harvard

One day, one of the greatest experimental physicists of the 20th century was asked a simple question, by one of his students:

If there was any difference in gravitational effect on a rotating object versus a non-rotating object?

After an extensive search in the literature, no evidence could be found that the experiment had been performed before.

This became one of the most celebrated experiments in modern physics: the spinning ball experiment.


"Conceptually, the experiment could not have been much cheaper, or easier to carry out:

Two 1-inch steel balls (like those found in every pinball machine in America ...) were positioned at the business end of an ordinary power drill; one ball was in a cup attached to the drill's motor shaft, so it spun -- at a very high rate of speed; the other ball was in an identical cup, attached by a bracket to the stationary drill casing, adjusted so that it was level with the first ball.

The experiment consisted of positioning the drill vertically, cups "up," and pressing the drill switch on the motor.

The drill motor (and its associated cup, containing one of the steel balls) rapidly spun up to approximately 27,000 RPM. The cup attached to the side of the drill (with the second steel ball inside it ...) was not rotating ....

When the drill motor had attained its maximum speed, DePalma (or, more often, Ed Delvers, his assistant ...) would shove the drill into the air with a fast, upward motion -- suddenly stopping the drill it in mid-flight. This would, of course, cause both 1-inch pinballs to fly out of their retaining cups in the same upward direction -- the "spinning ball" (hence the name ...) and the non-spinning ball, right beside it.

DePalma, from his years spent working with Dr. Herald Edgerton at MIT -- the famed inventor of "stroboscopic photography" -- was an expert in such stop-motion photography as well. By positioning Delvers against a gridded black background, in a darkened laboratory (below), and then illluminating the two upward-flying steel balls with a powerful strobe light, DePalma was able to take time-exposure photographs with the camera's shutter open, the "pinballs" only illuminated (at 60 times per second) by the strobe's periodic flash ....


The result was a striking "stroboscopic, time-lapse photograph" of the parabolic arc of both steel balls -- flying upward and then downward under Earth's gravitational acceleration (below)."



Looked at even casually, one can instantly see in the resulting time-lapse image (above) that the two pinballs did NOT fly along identical parabolic arcs (as they should have); unmistakably, the steel ball that was rotating (at ~27,000 rpm) flew higher ... and fell faster ... than the companion ball that was not rotating!

An experimental result in direct violation of everything physicists have thought they've known about both Newton's Laws and Einstein's Relativity ... for almost (in the case of Newton ...) three full centuries!


Dr. Bruce DePalma graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1958. He attended graduate school in Electrical Engineering and Physics at M.I.T. and Harvard University. At M.I.T. he was a lecturer in Photographic Science in the Laboratory of Dr. Harold Edgerton and directed 3-D color photographic research for Dr. Edwin Land of Polaroid Corporation.


The results of the Spinning Ball Experiment were published in the British Scientific Research Association Journal in 1976. This experiment was also outlined personally by DePalma to Dr. Edward Purcell, one of the most eminent experimental physicists from Harvard at that time. According to DePalma, Purcell, after contemplating the experiment for several minutes, remarked "This will change everything."


The only difference was that one ball was rotating 27,000 times per minute and the other was stationary. The rotating ball traveled higher and then descended faster than its counterpart, which violated all known laws of physics.

The only explanation for this effect is that both balls are drawing energy into themselves from an unseen source, and the rotating ball is thus “soaking up” more of this energy than its counterpart – energy that would normally exist as gravity, moving down into the earth.

With the addition of torsion-field research we can see that the spinning ball was able to harness naturally spiraling torsion waves in its environment, which gave it an additional supply of energy.


A ball spinning at 27,000 RPM and a non-spinning ball were catapulted side-by-side with equal momentum and projection angle. In defiance of all who reject the ether as unrealistic, the spinning ball actually weighed less, and traveled higher than its non-spinning counterpart. Those who attribute this to an aerodynamic or atmospheric effect, please note that it works just as well in a vacuum. Also note, this effect has since been verified by other researchers. The decrease in weight of the spinning ball - anti-gravity - can explain why the spinning object goes higher and falls faster than the identical non-rotating control. Current thinking is that there is no special interaction between rotation and gravity. The behavior of rotating objects is simply the addition of ether energy to whatever motion the rotating object is making.


The law of universal gravitation totally violated: FOR THE SAME MASS OF THE STEEL BALLS, AND THE SAME SUPPOSED LAW OF ATTRACTIVE GRAVITY, THE ROTATING BALL WEIGHED LESS AND TRAVELED HIGHER THAN THE NON-ROTATING BALL.


More experiments performed by Dr. Bruce DePalma, one of the America's greatest physicists of the 20th century:

A prime example of this is provided by the spinning ball experiments of Bruce DePalma.

He projected two metal balls upwards inside a vacuum container, one spinning at some 20,000 rpm and the other non-spinning, and observed any differences.
He discovered that the spinning ball moved higher and further and also fell faster than the non-spinning one.



Back in the 70's Bruce Depalma did a series of tests involving spinning objects. In his published findings he goes on to describe that a ball spun at a high rate of speed will actually travel higher (sometimes 20% higher) and fall faster then a ball that is not spinning. Now of course the balls are identical and launched at the same trajectory. This test was also done in a vacuum to go on and prove that drag couldn't have an effect on it.


DePalma’s experiment with steel balls in 1972 showed that certain physical properties of an object are radically altered—both its mass and inertia—if it is rotated. According to DePalma, rotation produces a force field, specifically around the main axis of the rotating object, that he measured and called a torsion field or spin field. Time-lapse stroboscopic photographs revealed that the steel ball rotating at ~27,000 rpm flew higher and fell faster than the companion ball that was not rotating. DePalma had since conducted experiments on “bodies in rotation” including massive objects (e.g., over 30 lbs), spinning at very high velocities (~7600 revolutions/minute).

*

sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 01:25:43 AM »
The luminiferous aether is easy to debunk

Let's put your word to the test

BIEFELD-BROWN EFFECT

Dr. Paul Biefeld - former classmate of A. Einstein

T. Townsend Brown - student of Dr. Biefeld, studied at CalTech, he demonstrated his ideas on electricity and gravity to invited guests such as the physicist and Nobel laureate, Dr. Robert A. Millikan.

When the poles of a freely suspended charged capacitor (even in vacuum) were placed on a horizontal axis, a forward thrust would be produced which would move the capacitor in the direction of the positive pole. The direction of thrust would reverse in conjunction with a polarity change. This is the phenomenon known as the Biefield-Brown Effect.


VACUUM TEST #1

http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/ascvacuum/index.htm (includes all necessary technical information and the video itself)


At the pressure of 1.72 x 10^-6 Torr ( High Vacuum conditions ), the apparatus rotates when the High Voltage is increased from 0 to +45 KV.


VACUUM TEST #2

https://web.archive.org/web/20050216062907/http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reginald/liftvac.html (includes technical information and video)


VACUUM TEST #3

https://web.archive.org/web/20070212193741/http://www.t-spark.de/t-spark/t-sparke/liftere.htm (includes technical information and video)


MULTIPLE TESTS PERFORMED IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT ION WIND COULD NOT HAVE AN INFLUENCE ON THE EXPERIMENTS THEMSELVES:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifteriw.htm


VACUUM TEST #4: PROJECT MONTGOLFIER

https://web.archive.org/web/20140110041712/http://projetmontgolfier.info/

https://web.archive.org/web/20131025082102/http://projetmontgolfier.info/TT_Brown_Proposal.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20130522083124/http://projetmontgolfier.info/uploads/Section_3__Final_Report.pdf

In 1955 and 1956 Townsend Brown made two trips to Paris where he conducted tests of his electrokinetic apparatus and electrogravitic vacuum chamber tests in collaboration with the French aeronautical company Société National de Construction Aeronautiques du Sud Ouest (S.N.C.A.S.O.) .

In addition the Project Montgolfier team constructed a very large vacuum chamber for performing vacuum tests of smaller discs at a pressure of 5 X 10BIEFELD-BROWN EFFECT

Dr. Paul Biefeld - former classmate of A. Einstein

T. Townsend Brown - student of Dr. Biefeld, studied at CalTech, he demonstrated his ideas on electricity and gravity to invited guests such as the physicist and Nobel laureate, Dr. Robert A. Millikan.

When the poles of a freely suspended charged capacitor (even in vacuum) were placed on a horizontal axis, a forward thrust would be produced which would move the capacitor in the direction of the positive pole. The direction of thrust would reverse in conjunction with a polarity change. This is the phenomenon known as the Biefield-Brown Effect.


VACUUM TEST #1

http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/ascvacuum/index.htm (includes all necessary technical information and the video itself)


At the pressure of 1.72 x 10^-6 Torr ( High Vacuum conditions ), the apparatus rotates when the High Voltage is increased from 0 to +45 KV.


VACUUM TEST #2

https://web.archive.org/web/20050216062907/http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reginald/liftvac.html (includes technical information and video)


VACUUM TEST #3

https://web.archive.org/web/20070212193741/http://www.t-spark.de/t-spark/t-sparke/liftere.htm (includes technical information and video)


MULTIPLE TESTS PERFORMED IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT ION WIND COULD NOT HAVE AN INFLUENCE ON THE EXPERIMENTS THEMSELVES:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifteriw.htm


VACUUM TEST #4: PROJECT MONTGOLFIER

https://web.archive.org/web/20140110041712/http://projetmontgolfier.info/

https://web.archive.org/web/20131025082102/http://projetmontgolfier.info/TT_Brown_Proposal.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20130522083124/http://projetmontgolfier.info/uploads/Section_3__Final_Report.pdf

In 1955 and 1956 Townsend Brown made two trips to Paris where he conducted tests of his electrokinetic apparatus and electrogravitic vacuum chamber tests in collaboration with the French aeronautical company Société National de Construction Aeronautiques du Sud Ouest (S.N.C.A.S.O.) .

In addition the Project Montgolfier team constructed a very large vacuum chamber for performing vacuum tests of smaller discs at a pressure of 5 X 10-5 mm Hg:



Left: Vacuum chamber vessel (1.4 m diameter) for conducting electrogravitic tests. Right: Vessel opened to show test rotor rig within. (photos courtesy of J. Cornillon)


Reading the section describing the vacuum chamber results, we learn that when the discs are operated at atmospheric pressure they move in the direction of the leading edge wire regardless of outboard wire polarity.  This indicates that in normal atmospheric conditions the discs are propelled forward primarily by unbalanced electrostatic forces due to the prevailing nonlinear field configuration (which causes thrust in the direction of the low field intensity ion cloud regardless of the ion polarity).  On the other hand, the report says that under high vacuum conditions the discs always moved in the direction of the positive pole, regardless of the polarity on the outboard wire. 

These vacuum chamber experiments were a decisive milestone in that they demonstrated beyond a doubt that electrogravitic propulsion was a real physical phenomenon. 

PAGE 26 OF THE FINAL REPORT FULLY DESCRIBES THE OBSERVED BIEFELD BROWN EFFECT IN FULL VACUUM CHAMBER

When the DISK SHAPED CAPACITOR WAS USED, the total deviation/movement was A FULL 30 DEGREES (deviation totale du systeme 30 degre).


http://users.erols.com/iri/TTBROWN2.htm

In 1985, Dr. Paul LaViolette was in the Library of Congress in Washington, DC and looked up the work "gravity" in the card catalog. Surprisingly, he found the listing for "Electrogravitics Systems," a report that was missing from the stacks. When the librarian tried to locate any other copies through interlibrary loan, she commented, "It must be an exotic document" because she could find only one in the country which was at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Thus, LaViolette was successful in obtaining a copy of the formerly classified document. The mystery continued: seven years later when contacting the Wright-Patterson AFB Technical Library, they surprisingly found no reference in the computer-based card catalog. They did locate the document on the shelves, however, after being asked to search for it. To summarize, the report has historic value because:

It validates T.T. Brown's experiments;
It lists the major corporations that were collaborating on electrogravitics;
It includes the requirements for supersonic speed;
It shows the continuity from Project Winterhaven in 1952;
The report includes a list of electrostatic patents;
It had been classified by the Air Force for an undetermined amount of time which underscores its importance.


This is real science, the greatest American physicist of the 20th century, T. Townsend Brown: it should be the privilege of the FES to immediately claim that the Biefeld-Brown effect can only take place on a flat surface of the earth, but instead, it chooses to post on its official page (no less) the catastrophic UA conjecture, without any proofs.


Dr. Francis Nipher one of the most distinguished physicists of the United States:

http://www.accessgenealogy.com/missouri/biography-of-francis-eugene-nipher-ll-d.htm

The relationship between gravitation and the electric field was first observed experimentally by Dr. Francis Nipher. Nipher's conclusion was that sheilded electrostatic fields directly influence the action of gravitation. He further concluded that gravitation and electrical fields are absolutely linked.


http://www.rexresearch.com/nipher/nipher1.htm

The relationship between gravitation and the electric field was first observed experimentally by Dr. Francis Nipher. Dr. Francis Nipher conducted extensive experiments during 1918, on a modified Cavendish experiment. He reproduced the classical arrangements for the experiment, where gravitational attraction could be measured between free-swinging masses, and a large fixed central mass. Dr. Nipher modified the Cavendish experiment by applying a large electrical field to the large central mass, which was sheilded inside a Faraday cage. When electrostatic charge was applied to the large fixed mass, the free-swinging masses exhibited a reduced attraction to the central mass, when the central mass was only slightly charged. As the electric field strength was increased, there arose a voltage threshold which resulted in no attraction at all between the fixed mass and the free-swinging masses. Increasing the potential applied to the central mass beyond that threshold, resulted in the free-swinging masses being repelled (!) from the fixed central mass. Nipher's conclusion was that sheilded electrostatic fields directly influence the action of gravitation. He further concluded that gravitation and electrical fields are absolutely linked.


Your relativity STORY fails on all counts.

My ether THEORY passes the experimental tests perfectly.

*

JackBlack

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 01:42:12 AM »
You simply have not done your homework properly.
I reminded you of this thing several times before.
You mean baselessly asserted it.
You are the one that has repeatedly failed to do your homework and repeatedly had your ass handed to you.

These are 2 experiments which collectively disprove the existence of aether.
They show that at the same time, Earth would be moving with respect to the aether and not moving with respect to the aether. That is impossible. It either is moving with respect to the aether or it isn't. You can't have both.

The MM experiment failed to detect the ORBITAL SPEED OF THE EARTH THAT WAS ASSUMED.
It also failed to detect the rotational speed of Earth, and more recent ones have likewise failed to measure the rotation of Earth, the rotation that ring interferometers do detect.

It DID detect the rotational speed of the ether strings/field.
No it didn't. Don't lie. And your garbage links to more of your ramblings it not evidence, nor is your BS spam wall of texts.

which agrees precisely with the average of 4.0 km/sec in the majority of the interferometer experiments.
What vast majority? Do you mean all those that repeatedly fail to detect the motion and reduce the margin of error, showing it is almost certainly 0?
Regardless, with the

In brief, the geocentric model has a simple explanation for the unexpected results of the Michelson-Morley experiment
Yes, but just that experiment, not other experiments which show that conclusion to be fallacious as it requires the baseless assumption of the existence of the aether, and not other experiments/observations which show any geocentric model would be much more complicated.

the Earth is fixed and the universe and its ether rotate around it
Why is that simpler than Earth rotating with the aether being fixed?

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm
"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect." — Dayton Miller (1928)
This alone debunks relativity.
No. A quote from one person does not debunk relativity at all.
You need to show that he considered all sources of error, including their range, to show that there is always a positive effect.

Meanwhile, linear interferometers, stellar aberration and ring interferometers (you can do it with 2 of the three) conclusively debunk aether.

And I will just skip the rest of your BS where you are just spouting baseless claim after baseless claim with no evidence or references.

Now then, are you capable of rationally responding rather than spamming the same walls of text which have already been shown to be pure bullshit?

*

rabinoz

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 02:01:28 AM »
The Michelson-Morley experiments were taken to a more precise level by Dr Dayton Miller (Princeton University).
http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm
"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect." — Dayton Miller (1928)
This alone debunks relativity.
Yes, to a more precise level than Michelson-Morley Experiments and Michelson-Morley type experiments have been taken to far more precise levels since them.

And you of course are much smarter that Dr Dayton Miller, because his results seem to show that earth is not stationary, but moving like this:

Earth Spiral Motion Around the Moving Sun.
Figure 3 from A Dynamic and Substantive Cosmological Ether, James DeMeo, Ph.D. ( ;D ;D That's not from Wikipedia  ;D ;D)
The earth certainly doesn't look stationary in that and I am sure that neither Dr Dayton Miller nor Dr James DeMeo, ever considered anything other than the Heliocentric Globe.

Quote from: sandokhan
"The 8π component in Einstein’s field equation, G = 8πT (in which G is the Einstein tensor and T is the stress or energy-momentum tensor), was added by determining what factor was necessary in order to make Einstein’s equation equal to Newton’s equation."
Not quite, I have not looked in detail at exactly that,  but, it might be more accurate to say, "The 8π component in Einstein’s field equation, G = 8πT . . . . . . was added . . . . . . . to make Einstein’s equation approach to Newton’s equations or motion and gravitation in as mass and velocity approach zero."

In other words Einstein recognised that Newtonian Physics was quite in the low velocity, low mass case. So what?

Quote from: sandokhan
Dark Flow disproves both GTR and Newtonian gravitation.
It renders both useless and worthless.
Really, says who? And how do you work that out? What have you found out about what is going on "2.5 billion light-years away" away that "renders both, GTR and Newtonian gravitation, useless and worthless."

But nobody pretends that Einstein's GR is necessarily the last word on gravitation, science does not work that way.

What a hypocrit, you don't even believe anything can be "2.5 billion light-years away."

Quote from: sandokhan
You are going to have to come up with a workable flat earth theory which does not include relativity.
I'll leave AltSpace worry about that.

Now, please explain how your tiny sun, only 15 km or so above the earth explain 's the motion of the sun that we observe.
And how radar and laser echos from your moon take about 2.5 secs to return.
Oh sorry, that just needs a bit of :D Faerie Dust :D AKA Sandokhan's magic aether.

Not to be confused with JRoweSkeptic's :D Faerie Dust :D AKA JRoweSkeptic's magic aether, that's quite different.

So sorry I can't answer this better, but it's a bit hard doing all this on a tablet.

*

sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 02:06:19 AM »


Dayton Miller's light-beam interferometer, at 4.3 meters across, was the largest and most sensitive of this type of apparatus ever constructed, with a mirror-reflected round-trip light-beam path of 64 meters. It was used in a definitive set of ether-drift experiments on Mt. Wilson, 1925-1926.

Dayton Miller's 1933 paper in Reviews of Modern Physics details the positive results from over 20 years of experimental research into the question of ether-drift, and remains the most definitive body of work on the subject of light-beam interferometry.

As a graduate of physics from Princeton University, President of the American Physical Society and Acoustical Society of America, Chairman of the Division of Physical Sciences of the National Research Council, Chairman of the Physics Department of Case School of Applied Science (today Case Western Reserve University), and Member of the National Academy of Sciences well known for his work in acoustics, Miller was no "outsider". While he was alive, he produced a series of papers presenting solid data on the existence of a measurable ether-drift, and he successfully defended his findings to not a small number of critics, including Einstein. His work employed light-beam interferometers of the same type used by Michelson-Morley, but of a more sensitive construction, with a significantly longer light-beam path. He periodically took the device high atop Mt. Wilson (above 6,000' elevation), where Earth-entrained ether-theory predicted the ether would move at a faster speed than close to sea-level. While he was alive, Miller's work could not be fundamentally undermined by the critics.

In his 1933 paper, Miller published the most comprehensive summary of his work, and the large quantity of data which supported his conclusions. A total of over 200,000 individual readings were made, from over 12,000 individual turns of the interferometer, undertaken at different months of the year, starting in 1902 with Edward Morley at Case School in Cleveland, and ending in 1926 with his Mt. Wilson experiments. These data do not include many rigorous control experiments undertaken at Case School Physics Department from 1922 to 1924. More than half of Miller's readings were made at Mt. Wilson using the most sophisticated and controlled procedures, with the most telling set of experiments in 1925 and 1926. By contrast, we can mention here, the original Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887 involved only six hours of data collection over four days (July 8, 9, 11 and 12 of 1887), with a grand total of only 36 turns of their interferometer. Even so, as shown below, Michelson-Morley originally obtained a slight positive result which has been systematically ignored or misrepresented by modern physics. As stated by Michelson-Morley:

"...the relative velocity of the earth and the ether is probably less than one-sixth the earth's orbital velocity, and certainly less than one-fourth. ... The experiment will therefore be repeated at intervals of three months, and thus all uncertainty will be avoided." (Michelson-Morley 1887)

Unfortunately, and in spite of all claims to the contrary, Michelson-Morley never undertook those additional experiments at the different seasonal configurations, to "avoid all uncertainty". However, Miller did. Over many years, he developed increasingly sensitive apparatus, using them at higher altitudes and in open structures, making clear and positive detection of the ether. His experiments yielded systematic periodic effects which pointed to a similar identifiable axis of cosmic ether-drift, though of a variable magnitude, depending upon the season, time of day, density of materials shielding or surrounding the apparatus, and altitude at which the experiment was undertaken. He argued that basement locations, or interferometers shielded with opaque wood or metal housings, yielded the most tiny and insignificant effects, while those undertaken at higher altitudes and in less dense structures yielded more readily observable effects. The Michelson-Morley experiment, by comparison, was undertaken in the basement of a stone building closer to sea-level. Even so, it produced a slight positive result which was in agreement with Miller's results.

Miller's observations were also consistent through the long period of his measurements. He noted, when his data were plotted on sidereal time, they produced "...a very striking consistency of their principal characteristics...for azimuth and magnitude... as though they were related to a common cause... The observed effect is dependent upon sidereal time and is independent of diurnal and seasonal changes of temperature and other terrestrial causes, and...is a cosmical phenomenon." (Miller 1933, p.231)



A typical data sheet recording 20 turns of the interferometer, in this case, on 23 September 1925, 3:09 to 3:17 AM at Mount Wilson. Over 300 of these data sheets were recorded by Miller at Mt. Wilson alone, covering more than 6000 turns of the interferometer.



Figure 2: PERIODICITY OF GLOBAL ETHER-DRIFT, from Dayton Miller's Mount Wilson Ether-Drift Experiments, 1925-26. The Top Graph above plots data from four separate months or epochs, measured at different times of the year and organized by sidereal time, showing a definite periodic curve. The heavy line is the mean of all four epochs. The Bottom Graph (above) plots the same data organized by civil clock time coordinates; here, the plotted data spreads out along the graph, without apparent periodicity. This demonstrates, the detected axis and periodicity of ether drift is the same for different times of year, but can only be seen when the data is viewed within a cosmological, sidereal coordinate system. (From Miller 1928, p.362)



Dayton Miller (left) and Albert Michelson (right) at a Conference on the Michelson-Morley Experiment held at Mount Wilson Observatory, February 1927.

James DeMeo, PhD


The most significant development since Miller has been the
experiments of Yuri Galaev of the Institute of Radiophysics and
Electronics in the Ukraine. Galaev made independent measure-
ments of ether-drift using radiofrequency and optical wave
bands. His research "confirmed Miller's results down
to the details".

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722791#msg1722791

Yuri Galaev, Ph.D.; Senior research officer of the Institute for Radiophysics & Electronics National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, and corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences (RANS)

THE MEASURING OF ETHER-DRIFT VELOCITY AND KINEMATIC ETHER VISCOSITY WITHIN OPTICAL WAVES BAND Yu.M. Galaev The Institute of Radiophysics and Electronics of NSA in Ukraine


Dr. Galaev remarks:

Orbital component of the ether drift velocity, stipulated by the Earth movement around the Sun with the velocity 30 km/sec, was not detected [during the Dayton Miller experiments].


Dr. Galaev also concludes:

The method action is based on the development regularities of viscous liquid or gas streams in the directing systems. The significant measurement results have been obtained statistically. The development of the ether drift required effects has been shown. The measured value of the ether kinematic viscosity on the value order has coincided with its calculated value.


The most precise experiments ever undertaken in ether-drift detection thus prove that the Earth does not orbit the Sun at a speed of 30km/s.


Please read up on the 1881 experiment done by Michelson which is very conclusive:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1956136#msg1956136

Using a 600 nanometer wavelength of light, Michelson expected to see fringe shifts (or, as he called them, “displacement of the interference bands”) of at least 0.04 of a fringe width. The 0.04 figure corresponds to an Earth moving at 30 km/sec around the sun. If this was combined with what Michelson believed was the solar system’s apparent movement toward the constellation Hercules, the fringes should have shifted on the order of 0.10 of a fringe width. But Michelson didn’t see any fringe shifting close to either value.

The orbital Sagnac effect is completely missing:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1911899#msg1911899

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1917978#msg1917978

In addition, the orbital solar gravitational potential is not being registered either by the GPS satellites' clocks.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706


Thus, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are totally fulfilled:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.


Given the results of the Michelson experiment (1881) which proved that the Earth does not move through ether, the results of the Ruderfer experiment prove one thing very directly: it is the dynamical ether which rotates above the surface of a stationary Earth.


calamityjack, learn some real physics before posting your useless messages.



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rabinoz

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 02:06:39 AM »

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rabinoz

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 02:08:07 AM »

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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 02:12:07 AM »
And you of course are much smarter that Dr Dayton Miller, because his results seem to show that earth is not stationary, but moving like this:

rabinoz, you don't stand a chance with me.

When are you going to learn to do some basic research before posting?


"But we must pause at this juncture to critique Miller’s thinking process, for
he, being a Copernican, is basing his interpretation of data on his belief that
the Earth is moving at least 30 km/sec through space. Interestingly enough, it
is precisely because of this presupposition that Miller runs into some
unexplained difficulty, since his observations begin to conflict with his
mathematical calculations. The one anomaly in all past interferometer
experiments that Miller discovered was the experimenters assumed they knew the
precise velocity of the Earth through the ether in combination with the solar
system’s supposed motion toward the constellation of Hercules, but did they
really know? The geocentrist, of course, would answer that they did not know.
In any case, Miller’s 1925 experiment took into account this “anomaly” and he
made his calculations accordingly. Since he assumed the Earth was moving 30
km/sec
, he combined this with the four positions (February, April, August,
September) that he examined of the Earth’s orbit around the sun and then used
Pythagorean geometry to determine the speed of the Earth toward the
constellation Draco, which came to 208 km/sec.[2] In other words, 208 km/sec is
what Miller believed to be the Earth’s absolute speed through the ether. Of
course, being a heliocentrist, Miller is assuming that the ether is motionless
and that the Earth is moving through it. In any case, Miller’s 1933 paper
reveals that his Pythagorean calculations do not match what he observed in the
fringe shifts. As we will recall, his experimental fringe shifts showed a
maximum of 10 km/sec, but this figure is less than his computed value by a
factor of twenty! Miller did not have an answer for this problem, and it is
left as an open-ended question in his 1933 paper. The answer, of course, is
that Miller’s Pythagorean calculations were based on a faulty premise (i.e.,
that the Earth was moving). If that factor were eliminated, his calculations
would be in accord with his observations. The same can be said of recent
experiments performed by Stefan Marinov, in the late 1970s, using
coupled-mirror interferometry.

Miller configured the four interferometer readings in the form of a
parallelogram (February, April, August, September), which assumes the Earth is
in orbit around the sun.
The diagonal of each of the four parallelogram points
represents the apex of that period, while the long side represents the motion,
which is coincident with the center of orbit; the short side of the
parallelogram represents Earth velocity of 30 km/sec. Hence, knowing the
direction of the three sides of the triangle, and the magnitude of one side,
allows one to calculate the magnitude of the other sides, which for Miller was
208 km/sec toward Dorado."

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rabinoz

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 02:12:25 AM »
<< Obvious repeated spam deleted >>
My ether THEORY passes the experimental tests perfectly.
:P If that is true why can't you convince anyone, maybe apart from hoppy, of you marvelous theory?  :P

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rabinoz

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 02:16:19 AM »
<< Obvious repeated spam deleted >>
Please, please someone hit the EMERGENCY STOP button.
Ssndokhan's stuck in memory dump mode!

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AltSpace

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 02:38:10 PM »
Oh look, it's sandokhan, he even put out his spinning ball experiment and Allais effect posts, unfortunately, they can't be explained by aether because aether simply doesn't exist, as I have shown here. But let's see what you got to say about it:

The Michelson Morley failed to detect the rotation speed of the Earth that was assumed.

The MM experiment failed to detect the ORBITAL SPEED OF THE EARTH THAT WAS ASSUMED.

It DID detect the rotational speed of the ether strings/field.
Not in consistency with the Michelson-Gale and Michelson-Morley+Optical Resonator experiments.

https://www.revolvy.com/topic/Hammar%20experiment&item_type=topic

"In the 1920s, Dayton Miller conducted repetitions of the Michelson–Morley experiments, which allegedly gave a positive result. However, several experiments conducted afterwards by others gave negative results. Miller claimed that this is due to entrainment of the aether, because the other experiments used heavily enclosed equipment. To test Miller's assertion, Hammar conducted the following experiment using a common path interferometer in 1935.

Using a half-silvered mirror A, he divided a ray of white light into two half-rays. One half-ray was sent in the transverse direction into a heavy walled steel pipe terminated with lead plugs. In this pipe, the ray was reflected by mirror D and sent into the longitudinal direction to another mirror C at the other end of the pipe. There it was reflected and sent in the transverse direction to a mirror B outside of the pipe. From B it traveled back to A in the longitudinal direction. The other half-ray traversed the same path in the opposite direction.

The topology of the light path was that of a Sagnac interferometer with an odd number of reflections. Sagnac interfometers offer excellent contrast and fringe stability,[5] and the configuration with an odd number of reflections is only slightly less stable than the configuration with an even number of reflections. (With an odd number of reflections, the oppositely traveling beams are laterally inverted with respect to each other over most of the light path, so that the topology deviates slightly from strict common path.[6] ) The relative immunity of his apparatus to vibration, mechanical stress and temperature effects, allowed Hammar to detect fringe displacements as little as 1/10 of a fringe, despite using the interferometer outdoors in an open environment with no temperature control.

Similar to Lodge's experiment, Hammar's apparatus should have caused an asymmetry in any proposed aether wind. Hammar's expectation of the results was that: With the apparatus aligned perpendicular to the aether wind, both long arms would be equally affected by aether entrainment. With the apparatus aligned parallel to the aether wind, one arm would be more affected by aether entrainment than the other. The following expected propagation times for the counter-propagating rays were given by Robertson/Noonan:[4]

where is the velocity of the entrained aether. This gives an expected time difference:

On September 1, 1934, Hammar set up the apparatus on top of a high hill two miles south of Moscow, Idaho, and made many observations with the apparatus turned in all directions of the azimuth during the daylight hours of September 1, 2, and 3. He saw no shift of the interference fringes, corresponding to an upper limit of km/s.[3] These results are considered a proof against the aether drag hypothesis as it was proposed by Miller.

Because differing ideas of "aether drag" existed, the interpretation of all aether drag experiments can be done in the context of each version of the hypothesis.

1. None or partial entrainment by any object with mass. This was discussed by scientists such as Augustin-Jean Fresnel and François Arago. It was refuted by the Michelson–Morley experiment.
2. Complete entrainment within or in the vicinity of all masses. It was refuted by the Aberration of light, Sagnac effect, Oliver Lodge's experiments, and Hammar's experiment.
3. Complete entrainment within or in the vicinity of only very large masses such as Earth. It was refuted by the Aberration of light, Michelson–Gale–Pearson experiment."

Conclusion: There is no detected aether wind

MODERN OPTICAL RESONATOR EXPERIMENTS FIND NO AETHER WIND TO THE 10^17 LEVEL:

http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/Publikationen/2009/Eisele%20et%20al%20Laboratory%20Test%20of%20the%20Isotropy%20of%20Light%20Propagation%20at%20the%2010-17%20Level%202009.pdf

https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.80.105011

Wikipedia:

"The expectation was that the effect would be graphable as a sine wave with two peaks and two troughs per rotation of the device. This result could have been expected because during each full rotation, each arm would be parallel to the wind twice (facing into and away from the wind giving identical readings) and perpendicular to the wind twice. Additionally, due to the Earth's rotation, the wind would be expected to show periodic changes in direction and magnitude during the course of a sidereal day.
Because of the motion of the Earth around the Sun, the measured data were also expected to show annual variations."
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment#Michelson.E2.80.93Morley_experiment_.281887.29

The Experiments on the relative motion of the earth and ether have been completed and the result decidedly negative. The expected deviation of the interference fringes from the zero should have been 0.40 of a fringe – the maximum displacement was 0.02 and the average much less than 0.01 – and then not in the right place. As displacement is proportional to squares of the relative velocities it follows that if the ether does slip past the relative velocity is less than one sixth of the earth’s velocity.
— Albert Abraham Michelson, 1887

"From the standpoint of the then current aether models, the experimental results were conflicting. The Fizeau experiment and its 1886 repetition by Michelson and Morley apparently confirmed the stationary aether with partial aether dragging, and refuted complete aether dragging. On the other hand, the much more precise Michelson–Morley experiment (1887) apparently confirmed complete aether dragging and refuted the stationary aether.[A 5] In addition, the Michelson–Morley null result was further substantiated by the null results of other second-order experiments of different kind, namely the Trouton–Noble experiment (1903) and the Experiments of Rayleigh and Brace (1902–1904). These problems and their solution led to the development of the Lorentz transformation and special relativity.

After the "failed" experiment Michelson and Morley ceased their aether drift measurements and started to use their newly developed technique to establish the wavelength of light as a standard of length.[6] [7]"
--https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Michelson%E2%80%93Morley%20experiment&item_type=topic

No aether wind matches the Earth's rotation.

But the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment detected rotation which could only be explained as an aether wind passing at fringe = 0.2364, a 24 hour passing of aether, which wasn't detected by the michelson-morley experiments.

“In 1924 Michelson and Gale used in Chicago a new fix interferometer. Both paths have exactly the same length. But one of E-W arm (DE in the sketch) is more than 300 meters located in the North of the other arm, which is by the way closer to the equator. The tangential speed of the Earth is not the same for both arms.
lac being the Chicago latitude, the result is a difference between the two duration of : t2 - t1 = (4 p L l sin lac)/(24 c2). Michelson and Gale measured an interference fringe displacement of 0,230 ± 0,005 fringe width (they performed 269 measurements) the theoretical displacement is 0,236. This is exactly the same experiment than Sagnac; It shows the rotation of the Earth.”
- http://editionsassailly.com/books/space.htm

The aether gave contradictory results, the aether wind passes at earth's supposed rotation speed or it doesn't, but it seems to be both if we are to assume aether.

THE FORGOTTEN PAPERS THAT DEBUNK THE AETHER ALONG WITH THE MICHELSON-MORLEY AND OPTICAL RESONATOR MEASURMENTS (forgotten by modern pro-aether advocates):
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1925ApJ....61..137M&amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;type=PRINTER&amp;filetype=.pdf

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1925ApJ....61..140M&amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;type=PRINTER&amp;filetype=.pdf

The Michelson-Gale-Pearson Experiment original^

The only logical conclusion here is that the luminiferous aether simply doesn't exist.

As for the rest:

Quote
The Michelson-Morley experiments were taken to a more precise level by Dr. Dayton Miller (Princeton University).

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm

"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect." — Dayton Miller (1928)


This alone debunks relativity.
Unfortunately, this specific experiment was one of the many thousands of attempts that detects a slight apparent drift, why does it contradict the other modern measurements and experiments of the time?

"These data display frequent instabilities, including occasional drifts of more than 2 fringes per turn and occasional
jumps as large as 1.5 fringes between successive markers (!). One run drifted by 18 fringes in 17 turns; but then,
three runs drifted by less than 1 fringe during 20 turns. Examination of the data suggests classifying regions of
instability as any drift with a rate of more than ½ fringe during ½ turn. That is five times the largest signal Miller
claimed, and almost ten times the amplitude of the plot at the bottom of Fig. 1. These regions of instability do not
display any consistent orientation dependence in any run. The model of the systematic drift cannot be expected to fit
runs with major instabilities, because its assumption that the systematic drift is as small as possible is violated for
such rapid drifts. The presence of instabilities has a modest effect on the χ
2
 of the fits to the systematic drift, but the
presence of a large number of instabilities in a run has a significant effect on whether or not the systematic model
matches the data. The best characterization found is the total number of turns in a run without instabilities: the plot
of the raw data for each of the 67 runs in the sample was manually examined, separating it into regions of instability
(during which the interferometer drifted at least ½ fringe during ½ turn), and regions of stability (1 turn or more with
no such rapid drift). The durations of the stable regions were then summed, without requiring them to be consecutive.
Figure 11 shows the results of this analysis, displaying the ½-turn Fourier amplitude of data minus systematic for all
67 runs in the sample; this is the true signal for this analysis. Runs plotted with closed circles have at least 6 stable
turns, while those plotted with open circles have 5 or fewer stable turns (i.e. ¾ or more of the turns are unstable by
the above criterion). Each fit includes the entire run; the instabilities are used only to select an open or closed circle for the plot. All of the closed circles have zero amplitude, because the systematic model reproduces the data exactly
for all runs with moderate or good stability. The lack of variance in these runs’ amplitudes is explained by the
quantization of both data and parameters at 0.1 fringe; varying any one parameter by its quantum increases χ
2
significantly. The runs which have nonzero amplitude all have major instabilities of the instrument throughout the
run, and the plot of data-systematic is zero except for one point of 0.1 fringe (the quantum) or two points of 0.1
fringe with the same sign – these cannot reasonably be interpreted as a “sinusoid signal”, and look much more like a
fit to a systematic drift that is not as small as possible."

"As this analysis concludes there is no signal in Miller’s data, it can set an upper limit on any signal with period ½
turn and on the “absolute motion of the earth”. From Fig. 11 (omitting runs with open circles as discussed above), a
reasonable estimate of the overall errorbar is 0.015 fringe for all sidereal times and all epochs of data. The errorbar
is dominated by the systematic drift, and the availability of many runs does not decrease it. That implies an upper
limit of 0.025 fringe at the 90% confidence level (1.65 σ). This must then be increased by 1/cos(latitude) to account
for the worst-case projection onto the plane of the interferometer. Figure 20 of (Miller, 1933) relates fringe shift to
his model of absolute speed, yielding an upper limit on the earth’s absolute motion of 6 km/sec (90% confidence
level). This value is consistent with similar experimental measurements, and with the null result predicted by Special
Relativity."

--An Explanation of Dayton Miller’s
 Anomalous “Ether Drift” Result
Thomas J. Roberts:
https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0608/0608238.pdf

The runs with a positive non-zero amplitude have been determined to have major instabilities, which can't reasonably be intrepreted as a signal derived.

Robert's concludes:
"This paper has not only explained how Miller was fooled, it has also presented a re-analysis of his data. This new
analysis obtains a value of zero
, and puts an upper bound on the “absolute motion of the earth” of 6 km/s (90%
confidence level). This is fully consistent with similar measurements, and with the null result predicted by Special
Relativity."

Summary in simple basic terms:
Dayton Miller performed over 326,000 turns of interferometer[6][7][8][9][10] with 16 readings each one, (more than 5,200,000 measurements). They showed what appeared to be a small amount of drift (about 9 km/s, 1/3 of the velocity of the earth around the sun): With white light and 32 m arms he could see nearly always the same result:

A shift amplitude of 0.12 ± 0.01 fringe, incompatible with zero.
A shift phase which points to an apex in the constellation Dorado.
The amplitude analysis suggests a drag of aether. But the analysis of phase suggests that the Solar System goes towards the constellation Dorado at a speed of 227 km/s.

These results were presented by Miller as a positive indication of the existence of an aether drift. However, the effect Miller saw was tiny - much smaller than would be expected for a stationary aether. In order for these results to be consistent with an aether, it had to be assumed that the aether was dragged along with the earth to a much greater extent than aether theories typically predicted. Values that high could be eliminated due to other physical phenomenon like stellar aberration, which put upper limits on the amount of dragging. Furthermore, the measurement was statistically far from any other measurements being carried on at the time. Fringe shifts of about 0.01 were being observed in many experiments, while Miller's 0.08 was not duplicated anywhere else—including Miller's own 1904 experiments with Morley, which showed a drift of only 0.015.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Miller#Aether_research

So, No, Miller did not detect an aether drift and does not match the results of the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment. Modern experiments like resonators have been giving negative results up to high precision. There simply is no detectable luminiferous aether.
But the aether can only explain the results of the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment as an aether wind passing by at a rotation per 24 hours, but this can't be detected by interferometers and variations of the Michelson-Morley experiment.

Of course, we know why this is, there simply is no aether and the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment was a detection of the sagnac effect of earth's rotation which relativity can easily explain.

Quote
You cannot use the MGP experiment to further your relativity STORY.

It did detect drift. However, the experiment cannot be used to either support geocentrism or heliocentrism, without additional information.
It can be used to debunk the luminiferous aether, which it does, and you can't explain it's inconsistency, because it is inconsistent, having contradictory results with these experiments.
Quote
Using a 600 nanometer wavelength of light, Michelson expected to see fringe shifts (or, as he called them, “displacement of the interference bands”) of at least 0.04 of a fringe width. The 0.04 figure corresponds to an Earth moving at 30 km/sec around the sun. If this was combined with what Michelson believed was the solar system’s apparent movement toward the constellation Hercules, the fringes should have shifted on the order of 0.10 of a fringe width. But Michelson didn’t see any fringe shifting close to either value.

The orbital Sagnac effect is completely missing:

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.
I'm no fan of 'heliocentrism', but this has been debunked by the fact that if you cut a 1/365th or even 1/180th of a degree of an arc of a circular orbit as described by a orbiting earth, it gives less than a nanosecond of orbital sagnac differences and so is not detected.

But the relativity model with GR easily explains this as orbit's being an inertial frame in non-homogenous 4D space-time, it's not a rotating frame actually, but even with Newtonian assumptions, it's BS to say that an orbital sagnac is larger than a rotation sagnac.
Of course, you repeat your ridiculous nonsense that an orbit of earth is a larger sagnac effect than earth spinning once per 24 hours, which you know as well as I do is false information.


As for the rest, it is simply a useless evidence for aether in the face of this debunking, which shows that there absolutely cannot be luminiferous aether based on our current knowledge (in which aether is outdated physics).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 06:52:51 PM by AltSpace »
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

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AltSpace

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 02:41:01 PM »
Sandokhan, you will have to try to come up with a workable flat earth model which does not include this luminiferous aether.

Otherwise, it is guaranteed that your theory will not hold up to any scrutiny.

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2017, 10:15:11 PM »
You haven't done your homework on the subject of ether drift.

But you are here to learn.

You cannot use Hammar's experiment as proof of anything.

http://vixra.org/pdf/1411.0040v1.pdf

You cannot use T. Roberts' analysis of Dayton Miller's ether drift results.

T. Roberts is a relativity theory fundamentalist, he says for instance: Relativity is well established in its domain of applicability...

James DeMeo did have a chance to respond to his statistical analysis, here it is:

http://sci.physics.relativity.narkive.com/PudLfhbR/dayton-miller-s-data-have-no-real-signal#post1 (scroll down to DeMeo's responses, I included only some brief passages)


Galaev's ether-drift experiments used both visible light and
radiowaves, and "confirmed Miller down to the details". And from
there, as I show, the sidereal-hour variations in Miller's
determinations match very precisely to Bernabei's determinations on
seasonal variations in "dark matter wind" -- another word for
ether-drift, in my view. So only from a superficial knowledge of this
issue, it appears there are quite a few scientists making nearly
identicial "systematic errors". It is one thing to claim, a guy with a
compass in his shaking hand can hardly tell where the needle is
pointing, but if he and a half-dozen others all point to the same
general location, in spite of shaking hands, it might pay to do more
than simply dismiss the issue. But there's other good reason to
dismiss your arguments, and retain clarity about Miller's work.


You evaluated Miller's August 1927 data set, but this is hardly
mentioned in his 1933 paper which you cited, and which is among his
most important ones on the subject. The 1933 paper covered a short
history of the ether-drift determinations, but primarily focused upon
his significant 1925-1926 experiments undertaken atop Mt. Wilson. The
Mt. Wilson experiments are what you should be discussing, not the
insignificant tests in Cleveland either before or after Mt. Wilson.
You proclaim, without evidence firstly that the direction of
ether-drift and velocity determinations were "not significantly better
than any other" direction or velocity -- this might be true for the
1927 data you examined. I have not seen it so cannot say. But it is
most definitely NOT the case for the 1925 and 1926 Mt. Wilson data,
which is what is presented in Miller's 1933 paper.

Shankland, et al, did their best to bury Miller's work forever. They
failed, as their approach was sloppy and showed an ignorance of how the
ether-drift experiments were undertaken. Both they and you ignored the
central issue of the needs for doing these experiments over different
times of year. Yes, you can point to one seasonal epoch and try to
argue that the systematic pattern in Miller's data is due to this or
that. Shankland dismissed the patterns as due to "temperature", but
without any proof as such. You say it is some kind of systematic
error. But firstly you don't look at Miller's most important data
sets, from Mt. Wilson. Even Shankland at least reviewed the correct
data sets, though he "cherry picked" only those data sheets by which he
could compose a verbal argument. Secondly, and more importantly,
neither the Shankland critique, nor your critique, addressed the
SYSTEMATIC SIDEREAL-DAY VARIATION IN THE AXIS OF ETHER-DRIFT, APPARENT
DURING ALL FOUR SEASONAL EPOCHS. The pattern was systematic, as MIller
noted repeatedly, as I show in my papers on Miller as well. When the
data are organized by civil-clock time, no pattern exists. When
organized by sidereal-clock (galactic) time, the pattern appears, and
is the same for all four epochs. There's simply no way you can use
math-arguments to overthrow such a pattern, especially since it has
already been confirmed by others.

How long will modern physics refuse to look at this
issue with open eyes and intelligent, fair-minded critique? Sorry to
say, Tom, your analysis is faulty on a number of levels, and does not
touch Miller's findings and conclusions anymore than the Shankland
hit-article did. It is a pity you did not consult with the advocates
of ether-drift prior to undertaking your analysis, as it could have
saved you a lot of time, and perhaps guided you to analyze the proper
set of data, from Mt. Wilson. But I still don't see how your method
can do more than point out the obvious, that the signal is often buried
in the noise. Lots of scientific problems suffer from this difficulty,
but progress nevertheless towards deeper understandings.


And there is more...

Dear Tom Roberts,

If I could summarize again:

1) You analyzed an apparently unpublished set of data from one of
Miller's tests in Cleveland, when the most serious data which requires
attention is from his Mt. Wilson experiments. I'm sure one could find
unpublished data from Michelson as well, or from Einstein's work -- it
may have historical significance, but is not the point of discussion if
you wish to refute what provides a foundation for much of new interest
in ether and ether-drift. I have no idea why Glen Deen gave you this
data set, instead of something from the Mt. Wilson experiments. Maybe
he can clarify this.

2) The tests in Cleveland would very likely have produced a signal far
below that of the Mt. Wilson experiments, given the effect of altitude
-- higher altitudes produce higher ether-drift velocities, as
documented by Galaev. Therefore, whatever your critique of the
Cleveland 1927 experiments were, they would not apply, or apply only
less-so to the Mt. Wilson experiments of 1925-26. You cannot presume
to assert the "signal to noise" levels were the same for both sets of
experiments. That's an unproven assumption.

3) Even if we assume, the variance within the measurements for any one
of the four seasonal epochs at Mt. Wilson was large, to rest upon that
observation and go no farther is to miss the forest for the trees.
Larger patterns in data sets often are not apparent or ammenable to
analysis via statistical methodology, but rather require dynamical
methods of analysis, or sometimes graphical or
geographical-astrocartographical methods. For example:

4) I did not mean to imply that low-altitude ether-drift experiments
would yield "no signal" at all. They do, but apparently of a reduced
intensity. Consequently, we might ask if the August 1927 data which
you analyzed yielded a variation over sidereal-clock coordinates? And
if so, is this variation along the same sidereal hour axis as what
Miller noted for the Mt. Wilson experiments, even if the velocity
determination would be at a lower level? If so, that would be in
keeping with his overall theory and findings. Miller's pre-Mt.Wilson
tests in Cleveland DID occasionally show similar vectors, as did the
Morley-Miller and even the Michelson-Morley experiment. Yes, he did a
lot of testing and control experiments, as Einstein was at the time
proclaiming (without evidence) that Miller's work was the consequence
of "thermal artifacts". So he did a lot of work to show, exactly, how
the interferometer would react to both small and large external heating
effects, and precautions were undertaken, such as shielding the
interferometer arms with insulation, and so on. NONE of those
experiments -- Michelson-Morley, Morley-Miller, or Miller in Cleveland
ever produced a fully "null" or "zero" result, which by itself is
significant. But the data was best at Mt. Wilson, and likewise
Michelson-Pease-Pearson also got their best result at Mt. Wilson.
Miller addressed this consideration in the 1933 paper, and
Michelson-Morley were also aware of their own slight positive result,
stating in the 1887 paper the need to perform the experiment over other
seasonal periods -- which they never did. Only Miller did so. The
fact that all four seasonal epochs of the Mt. Wilson experiments
yielded similar sidereal-hour vectors for the axis of drift, and that
this also was the same (though reduced) axis which could be extracted
from the original Michelson-Morley experiment, is THE significant
consideration, even if the velocity determinations were slightly
variable. This is what we call a highly-structured pattern in the
data. The fact that Galaev later found a similar axis of drift in his
work, and the seasonal variations in "dark matter wind" also show a
similar pattern, is "icing on the cake" so to speak.

5) High "signal to noise" ratios plague other data sets from natural
phenomena, such as climate patterns. Daily precipitation is a function
of solar heating and shifting of wind and pressure patterns. But if we
look for variations in precipitation as an indicator of solar heating,
it requires a lot of years of data before we get a climatic curve which
approximates the smooth latitudinal shifting of the sun's location, and
hence, solar heating of the lower atmosphere. Over shorter periods,
rainfall quantities may be extremely variable with large quantities one
day or week, nothing the next day or week, and so on over the years,
with some years very wet, others in drought. If we presume ignorance
of how solar heating works to stimulate rains, we would be hard pressed
to find this pattern in all the "noise" of daily precipitation
variation. We would in fact only find the pattern by recording
precipitation over the year, and then averaging the data by week or
month. Only then, you get a pattern which is valuable, and allows some
degree of confidence and prediction of when a "rainy season" or "dry
season" will occur. Likewise also, I would imagine, with the
determinations of anisotropy in 3-deg.K. in open space -- a lot of
variation, no way to make "statistical analysis" but when it is plotted
on a map -- or along a simple graphical ordination representing
sidereal hour -- it makes a pattern which is important to consider.

Unfortunately, I have no computer-readable data files for Miller. My
role was mostly historical, basically finished after the data sets were
finally obtained, and others set out on that task. I cannot speak to
what Glen Deen and others are doing with the data. My larger interest
today is in the work of Galaev, who developed an elegant and very
simple interferometer using parallel light beams, and seems
potentially easier to use, less afflicted by vibrations, and possibly
could be rendered far more sensitive given current technology. My push
has been, for more experiments to be undertaken, rather than merely to
analyze Miller over and over. I must disagree that your DSP method
will ever critically undermine Miller's findings, if only because my
points above cannot be overcome by purely statistical arguments. If
Miller's four different seasonal epochs had yielded four different
points in the heavens, four different axes of ether-drift, then surely
a rejection of his work would be fully in order and legitimate. But I
encourage you to look again at Figure 2 in my Miller paper.
http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm
This shows Miller's data organized firstly by sidereal hour, and
secondly by civil clock time. By sidereal hour, there is a distinct
pattern in the data, one which appears to be robust enough even to
survive your argument about the need for error-bars. However, when the
same data is organized by civil clock time, the pattern vanishes. This
is the issue which you need to address, and it will not be defeated
with DSP methods.

As noted, I do have copies of all of Miller's data sheets, being the
guy who stimilated their re-discovery from dusty storage rooms. You
mention only the one data sheet of Figure 8 from his 1933 paper, which
showed the results of 19 turns of the interferometer over about a
15-minute period. This is like, extracting rainfall records for one
month of one year, exclaiming there is "no solar-related pattern" and
ignoring all the rainfall data from many other months and years. Sure,
look at only one data sheet, and clear determinations may be
insufficient. But really, your DSP analysis was not of that data
sheet, nor of the hundreds of other data sheets from Mt. Wilson.

I have no interests to second-guess Miller's methods, and your claims
really don't suggest any serious reason why one should be concerned.
Nobody including Michelson had any problem with Miller's methods or
findings at the time when he was doing his work, other than Einstein,
who was no expert in the ether-drift methods. In fact Miller was the
student of Morley, and learned the methods as handed down from
Michelson and Michelson-Morley. You presume to have us believe you
know more about it than they did, even though you haven't undertaken an
analysis of the very same published data from which Miller's
conclusions were derived. And all the other validating experiments,
you simply ignore. Sorry to say, this is simply insufficient.

Regards,

James DeMeo

And here are Yuri Galaev's ether drift results, which cannot be ignored either:

http://www.mountainman.com.au/aether_6.htm



Here is Shankland's catastrophic analysis of Miller's results.

 Shankland became Chairman of the Physics Department at Case following Miller's retirement and death, building his professional career upon publications misrepresenting the Michelson-Morley experiments as the most solid evidence on the question, and publishing widely-read interviews with Einstein (Shankland 1963, 1964, 1973a, 1973b). Shankland later took up administrative positions within government agencies developing nuclear energy — he rarely discussed Miller's positive ether-drift measurements in any of these papers except in the 1955 paper under discussion here. In this sense, it is legitimate to view Shankland, and other members of his team (all Einstein advocates from Case) as very biased reviewers of Miller's work.

The very first sentence in the Shankland team's 1955 paper began with the falsehood, now widely parroted in nearly every physics textbook, that the Michelson-Morley experiments had a "null" result. The third sentence in the Shankland paper was similarly false, claiming that "All trials of this experiment except those carried out at Mount Wilson by Dayton C. Miller yielded a null result within the accuracy of the observations." This kind of chronic misrepresentation of the slight positive results of many interferometer experimenters, including Michelson-Morley, Morley-Miller, Sagnac, Michelson-Gale, and Michelson-Pease-Pearson, suggests an extreme bias and deliberate misrepresentation. The fact that this is a very popular bias does not excuse it. By redefining all the positive results observed by what may in fact have been the majority of ether-drift researchers, as mere expressions of "observational inaccuracy", Shankland narrowed his task considerably.


These and other sentences in the Shankland paper revealed its bias from the get-go, and gave it the spirit of an autopsy, where Miller was dissected without careful concern, and certainly where no advocate of ether theory appeared to be involved in the process. It is possible, by the 1950s, there was nobody left who could fill Miller's shoes to make an adequate defense. Ether-theory was then being compared to "the search for perpetual-motion machines" (Swenson 1972, p.239), and such ridicule surely must have had a silencing effect upon the entire fields of physics and astronomy. Swenson also suggests that, during his later years, Miller was largely ignored and isolated. This appears to be correct, as according to an interview with Shankland made in 1981, shortly before Miller died he gave all of his interferometer data sheets — hundreds of pages of measurements —to his one-time student Shankland, with the somewhat bitter statement that he should "either analyze the data, or burn it" (Kimball 1981, p.2). In that same interview, Shankland also blamed Miller for having blocked the awarding of a Nobel Prize to Einstein for his relativity theory — clearly, Miller's work was a major obstacle to the Einstein theory of relativity, and for that reason may have given Einstein and his followers sleepless nights.

The title of the Shankland paper, and its overall representation suggests the authors had made a serious review of "the interferometer observations" of Miller, to include some kind of comprehensive and inclusive evaluation — but this was not the case. There were two basic approaches to the Shankland team's analysis: 1) a search for random errors or statistical fluctuations in Miller's data, and 2) a review of selected data sets which they claimed demonstrated significant thermal artifacts in the data. We can review these claims.

Shankland Team's Evaluation for Random-Statistical variations

The Shankland paper did present a statistical analysis of a portion of Miller's published 1925-1926 Mt. Wilson data, concluding that his observations "...cannot be attributed entirely to random effects, but that systematic effects are present to an appreciable degree" and that "the periodic effects observed by Miller cannot be accounted for entirely by random statistical fluctuations in the basic data". (p.170) Also, the Shankland team admitted they "...did not embark on a statistically sound recomputation of the cosmic solution, but rather [looked for]...local disturbances such as may be caused by mechanical effects or by nonuniform temperature distributions in the observational hut." (p.172) In short, they admitted the harmonic patterns in Miller's data could not be due to any systematic measurement error, nor result from any mechanical flaws in the interferometer apparatus itself — while simultaneously admitting a disinterest in computation of any potentially validating ether-drift axis ("cosmic solution") from his data. These were important admissions, as the suggestion is, unless they could find some other fatal flaw in his data, Miller had really got it right, and measured a real Earth-entrained ether drift.

Of interest from the perspective of the politics of science, is the fact that this statistical analysis was not undertaken by any of the four members of the Shankland team listed as authors of the paper! The analysis was in fact undertaken by Case physics student Robert L. Stearns, for his Master's Thesis (Stearns 1952) — Stearns was given only a footnote credit in the Shankland paper.

Stearns, who performed the analysis, informs us about the large amount of data gathered by Miller. He mentions (Stearns 1952, p.15-17) the existence of "316 sets of data...by Miller in 1925-26" for the centrally-important Mt. Wilson experiments. Each data set was composed of 20 turns of the interferometer, with sixteen data points per turn (a total of 320 data points per data set). Miller noted his work at Mt. Wilson was undertaken at four different seasonal "epochs", each of which encompassed a period of around ten days, centered on the following dates: April 1st, August 1st, and September 15th, 1925 and February 8th 1926 (Miller 1926, 1933). It must be kept in mind, that these Mt. Wilson data from 1925 and 1926 provided the most conclusive and foundational observations for Miller's ether-drift calculations and conclusions, as presented most clearly in his 1933 paper. As detailed below, the Shankland team mentions these Mt. Wilson data, but in a manner which confuses them with his earlier and less significant efforts, including various control experiments conducted at Case School. The significance of this confusion of dates will be highlighted momentarily.






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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2017, 10:15:56 PM »
It is my hope that you will read this material very carefully: it shows clearly the nature of your superficial research.

Shankland Team's Assertion of Temperature Artifacts

Regarding possible temperature artifacts in Miller's data, this objection was raised early on in the history of ether-drift interferometry, and specifically rebutted by Miller when he was still alive. A letter exchange between Miller and Georg Joos from a 1934 issue of Physical Review records part of this debate, and appears to be one of the few published criticisms on the temperature issue Miller ever received while still alive. Miller had this to say about the problem: "When Morley and Miller designed their interferometer in 1904 they were fully cognizant of this...and it has never since been neglected. Elaborate tests have been made under natural conditions and especially with artificial heating, for the development of methods which would be free from this [thermal] effect". (Joos and Miller, 1934)

The Shankland critique never made any systematic evaluation of possible thermal artifacts using a larger set of Miller's data, as was done with the statistical evaluation. Instead, they appear to have "gone fishing" in Miller's data for something by which they could simply dismiss him. For example, Miller's own 1923 temperature-control experiments were brought into discussion, where radiant parabolic heaters were used to artificially create a general doubling of the size of interference fringes. Miller describes these experiments:

"Several electric heaters were used, of the type having a heated coil near the focus of a concave reflector. Inequalities in the temperature of the room caused a slow but steady drifting of the fringe system to one side, but caused no periodic displacements. Even when two of the heaters, placed at a distance of three feet from the interferometer as it rotated, were adjusted to throw the heat directly on the uncovered steel frame, there was no periodic effect that was measurable. When the heaters were directed to the air in the light-path which had a covering of glass, a periodic effect could be obtained only when the glass was partly covered with opaque material in a very nonsymmetrical manner, as when one arm of the interferometer was completely protected by a covering of corrugated paper-board while the other arms were unprotected. These experiments proved that under the conditions of actual observation, the periodic displacements could not possibly be produced by temperature effects." (Miller 1933, p.220)
Perhaps without intending to do so, after examining Miller's laboratory notes for the Cleveland temperature control experiments, the Shankland team confirmed Miller on this point:

"In the experiments where the air in the optical paths was directly exposed to heat, large second harmonics (0.35 fringe for one heater, and about twice this value for two heaters) were always observed in the fringe displacements, and with the expected phase. Shifting the heaters to a different azimuth produced a corresponding change in the phase of the second harmonics. When the optical paths and mirror supports were thermally insulated, the second harmonics were greatly reduced to about 0.07 fringe." (Shankland 1955, p.174; emphasis added, J.D.)
This statement confirmed the wisdom of Miller's approach. The added insulation reduced the thermal effects from a nearby radiant heater to only 20% of the un-insulated readings. I have an ordinary commercially-available electric radiant parabolic heater at my home, and it gets so hot you cannot stand closer than 12" without burning yourself, or possibly catching your clothing on fire. If Miller had used a parabolic heater even half as strong as this, it would certainly have been a source of heat much stronger than anything present in his Mt. Wilson experiments, particularly at night, during foggy or overcast conditions, and when the entire interferometer house was covered over with a tent, with the apparatus and light-beam path covered with cork, glass and paper insulation. Consider a radiant heater at several hundred degrees C, creating a steep thermal gradient but only a 0.07 fringe shift in the insulated interferometer. How much less of an effect would be produced by a human body, or even from the inside of a solar-heated wall? Assuming an environmental thermal effect only one-tenth that seen with the parabolic heater (a wood composite wall radiating inside the structure at perhaps 50°C?), fringe shifts of only 0.007 would have been produced, well below observational detection. Miller's data sheets, for example, recorded observations "in units of a tenth of a fringe width", though readings down to hundredths of a fringe were possible with care. Overall accuracy of the ether-drift measurements approached a hundredth of a fringe after mathematical averages of many readings were extracted.

The Shankland paper nevertheless used these control experiments as a weapon against Miller, claiming without evidence that heater-type effects might have occurred in his Mt. Wilson experiments, even where no such heater or remotely similar heat source was present. But why would the Shankland team shy from undertaking a more systematic evaluation for temperature artifacts? They could have, for example, evaluated only Miller's daytime interferometer experiments, and looked for a thermal effect from the southerly wall of the structure during the various epochs — if they could have shown an effect present in daytime data which was not present at night, it would have devastated Miller's claim, and proved their case. However, this obvious analytic procedure was not done, or if it was done, not reported.

The Shankland paper also resurrected the temperature criticisms by Joos (1934), but without reference to Miller's rebuttal in the same published exchange. If the periodic effects observed by Miller were the product of temperature variations, as was claimed by Shankland and Joos, then why would that variation systematically point to the same set of azimuth coordinates along the celestial sidereal clock, but not to any single terrestrial coordinate linked to civil time? Miller repeatedly asked this question of his critics, who had no answer for it. The Shankland team likewise evaded the question.

It is clear Miller had been deeply engaged on the problem of temperature effects, and worked hard to know exactly how they might be produced, and how to eliminate them. The Shankland paper, however, seized upon Miller's open acknowledgment fringe-shifts from air heating by powerful radiant heaters during control experiments, and a few other sentences written in his lab book, and tried to claim thermal anomalies were probably the source of whatever periodic effects were subsequently measured by Miller at Mt. Wilson, when no radiant heaters were used, and when the empirically-developed control procedures were put in place. Without some kind of independent experimental evidence to support such a claim of a thermal influence, their dismissal was illogical.

The Shankland paper also went through a series of arguments about the interferometer house, how the wall materials, roof angles, interferometer glass housing, etc., might result in a definable effect upon the air temperature in the light beam path, concluding only they could not rule out such an influence — that it "...is not in quantitative contradiction with the physical conditions of the experiment". (p.175) Given their ignoring the sidereal nature of the periodicities, this statement could hardly be taken seriously, and certainly did not constitute a rebuttal of Miller's data.

The Shankland paper finally attempted to correlate several selected daytime interferometer runs with temperature measurements made at the same time. They acknowledged difficulty in correlating low fringe-shift values with low temperature differentials, but found one set of high fringe-shift values correlated with slightly higher temperatures, even while noting another set where high values correlated with lower temperatures. Finally, they complain that "...no temperature data are available to reveal thermal conditions at the roof, which may be responsible for the large fringe displacements at the times of highest altitudes of the Sun." (p.176) If this sounds confusing, a reading of the full original text provided little clarification.

Failing to show anything damning from daytime data sets, when temperature gradients inside the interferometer house might be expected to be at a maximum, they turned their focus to nighttime data sets. Once again, only a few of Miller's data sheets were selected out to prove their case. Data from two nights (30 Aug. 1927 and 23 Sept.1925) with stable air temperatures were reviewed — these nights showed very clear and systematic fringe variations (Fig.4, p.176), but because the azimuth of the fringes changed minimally over the approximate 5 hours of observation, the critics complained "it would be extremely unlikely if the fringe shifts were due to any cosmic effect" (p.177). Apparently, the Shankland team was so locked into the older "static ether" assumptions of the original Michelson-Morley experiment, they were unclear about what they should have seen in Miller's data. In 1927, at a Conference on the Michelson-Morley Experiment held at Mt. Wilson Observatory, where Michelson, Lorentz, Miller and others made presentations and engaged in open debate, Miller addressed this question: "Observations were made for verifying these [static ether] predictions ...but it did not point successively to all points of the compass, that is, it did not point in directions 90° apart at intervals of six hours. Instead of this, the direction merely oscillated back and forth through an angle of about 60°..." (Miller 1928, p.356-357) The reason for this is, Miller's detected axis of ether-drift is oriented reasonably close (within 60°) to both the Earth's axis of rotation and the axis of the plane of the ecliptic.

Another important fact which nearly escapes detection in the Shankland paper is that the 30 August data were made in Cleveland, while the 23 Sept. data were from Mt. Wilson, and neither were a part of the published Mt. Wilson data Miller used for calculations of the ether-drift — both dates are well outside of the 10-day epochal periods identified by Miller. Furthermore, not all of the interferometer data sheets for a given date — which presumably would have had similar weather and temperature conditions — were included by the Shankland team for critical review. They selected only those data sets which appeared to support their argument of a claimed thermal anomaly. For example, they selected "ten sets of observations, Nos. 31 to 40 inclusive, made in the hut on the Case campus between midnight and 5:00 AM on August 30, 1927" and "...runs 75 to 83 inclusive taken from 12:18 AM to 6:00 AM on September 23" (p.176-177). Other than making the claim these selected data gave them the impression of being the result of temperature errors, they had no other stated criterion for bringing them into discussion. This biased data-selection, or rather data-exclusion procedure forces one to ask: What about data sets No.1 to 30, and runs 1 to 74? Similar unexplained data selections or data exclusions occur throughout the Shankland paper, leaving one to wonder if the unselected and excluded data, which constituted the overwhelming majority of it, simply could not provide support for their criticisms. One can imagine the howl of protest which would have occurred if Miller had taken this approach, arbitrarily excluding data from his calculations which superficially suggested something other than a real ether-drift.

A third data set from 30 July 1925 was highlighted by the Shankland team as it contained one extremely large peak where Miller noted "Sun shines on interferometer". This data does appear to have been a part of Miller's published Mt. Wilson analysis. However, the Shankland team extracted only "observations Nos. 21 to 28 inclusive, made between 1:43 AM and 6:04 AM on July 30, 1925." Obviously, at around 6:00 AM the sun rose and caught Miller and his assistant off-guard. What about observations Nos. 1 to 27, or other early-morning data, where the sun didn't shine on the interferometer? These other data were not brought into discussion, except they did note that the runs prior to the sunshine incident demonstrated "...an extremely erratic behavior...we have no ready explanation for this apparent departure..." Here, the Shankland team basically confesses their grab-bag of "ready" explanations was empty, and the idea that those data were expressing a real ether-drift was simply too "impossible" for them to consider. The fact that Miller included the note about the Sunlight on this data sheet speaks to his honesty.

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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2017, 10:17:42 PM »
(continued)

The Shankland team also identified data sets Nos.56-58 from 8 July 1924, which was part of Miller's control experiments made in a basement location at Case physics laboratory — the temperatures were very stable, and the fringe oscillations were quite small, and they argued these data were a proof for thermal effects on the apparatus. However, it was this very problem of basement and dense surrounding materials which led Miller on the path to use the apparatus in locations not subject to significant ether-shielding or Earth entrainment. After 1921, Miller only used the Case School laboratory to undertake control experiments, and that is why those particular data were never published.

The Shankland paper concluded its temperature criticisms by discussing a few additional data sets: Nos. 113-118 from April 2nd, Nos. 88-93 from August 8th, 1925, and Nos. 84-91 from February 11th, 1926 (p.177). Here, the amplitudes and phases were claimed to have been "nearly alike", but insufficient detail was given to allow a review of the critic's claims, and it did appear they were once again incorrectly misinterpreting Miller's data along the lines of static ether assumptions.

As in almost all the cases given above, none of these data were analyzed systematically, nor were they presented in such a manner that the author's criticisms could be factually reviewed. I got the impression, they simply scanned through a pile of Miller's data sheets, and with a wave of the hand, picking and pointing to only selected parts, dismissed it all as the product of thermal artifacts. Miller's detailed control experiments were basically ignored, as was the fact that, for all these experiments, the interferometer was enclosed in a small house covered over with a tent, while apparatus was shielded with cork insulation, and the light-beam path covered with glass and paper panels — with a full rotation occurring in less than a minute, one is left to wonder how any observable thermal variations could develop within Miller's data, especially variations with a sidereal-cosmic component.

For the casual reader, who had not undertaken a careful review of Miller's original experiments, the Shankland paper might appear to make a reasoned argument. However, the Shankland paper basically obfuscated and concealed from the reader most of the central facts about what Miller actually did, and in any case was so unsystematic and biased in its approach, excluding from discussion perhaps 90% or more of Miller's extensive Mt. Wilson data, as to render its conclusions meaningless.

As a final note, I must regrettably inform the reader, that my own search of available archive materials for both Miller and Shankland at Case University failed to discover even a single one of the hundreds of missing data sheets or laboratory records from Miller's years of hard work. Perhaps, Shankland finally did burn them?


CONCLUSIONS:

The Shankland conclusions against Miller were clearly negative, but the one systematic statistical analysis of his Mt. Wilson data merely confirmed what Miller said all along, that there was a clear and systematic periodic effect in the interferometer data. The Shankland paper also confirmed Miller's contention that this periodic effect was not the product of random errors or mechanical effects. The Shankland team subsequently searched for temperature artifacts in Miller's data, but failed to undertake any systematic analysis of his centrally-important Mt. Wilson data in this regard. Instead, they made a biased selections of a few published and unpublished data sets obtained from different periods in Miller's research, from different experimental locations, including from his control experiments at Case School.

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm


Now, with all your catastrophic references having been debunked, let us go back to Dayton Miller's results.

"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect." — Dayton Miller (1928, p.399)

Dayton Miller's 1933 paper in Reviews of Modern Physics details the positive results from over 20 years of experimental research into the question of ether-drift, and remains the most definitive body of work on the subject of light-beam interferometry. Other positive ether-detection experiments have been undertaken, such as the work of Sagnac (1913) and Michelson and Gale (1925), documenting the existence in light-speed variations (c+v > c-v), but these were not adequately constructed for detection of a larger cosmological ether-drift, of the Earth and Solar System moving through the background of space. Dayton Miller's work on ether-drift was so constructed, however, and yielded consistently positive results.

While Miller had a rough time convincing some of his contemporaries about the reality of his ether-measurements, he clearly could not be ignored in this regard. As a graduate of physics from Princeton University, President of the American Physical Society and Acoustical Society of America, Chairman of the Division of Physical Sciences of the National Research Council, Chairman of the Physics Department of Case School of Applied Science (today Case Western Reserve University), and Member of the National Academy of Sciences well known for his work in acoustics, Miller was no "outsider". While he was alive, he produced a series of papers presenting solid data on the existence of a measurable ether-drift, and he successfully defended his findings to not a small number of critics, including Einstein. His work employed light-beam interferometers of the same type used by Michelson-Morley, but of a more sensitive construction, with a significantly longer light-beam path. He periodically took the device high atop Mt. Wilson (above 6,000' elevation), where Earth-entrained ether-theory predicted the ether would move at a faster speed than close to sea-level. While he was alive, Miller's work could not be fundamentally undermined by the critics. However, towards the end of his life, he was subject to isolation as his ether-measurements were simply ignored by the larger world of physics, then captivated by Einstein's relativity theory.

Miller's observations were also consistent through the long period of his measurements. He noted, when his data were plotted on sidereal time, they produced "...a very striking consistency of their principal characteristics...for azimuth and magnitude... as though they were related to a common cause... The observed effect is dependent upon sidereal time and is independent of diurnal and seasonal changes of temperature and other terrestrial causes, and...is a cosmical phenomenon." (Miller 1933, p.231)

"The trouble with Prof. Einstein is that he knows
nothing about my results." Dr. Miller said. "He has
been saying for thirty years that the interferometer
experiments in Cleveland showed negative results. We
never said they gave negative results, and they did
not in fact give negative results. He ought to give
me credit for knowing that temperature differences
would affect the results. He wrote to me in November
suggesting this. I am not so simple as to make no
allowance for temperature."
(Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper, 27 Jan. 1926)



Figure 2: PERIODICITY OF GLOBAL ETHER-DRIFT, from Dayton Miller's Mount Wilson Ether-Drift Experiments, 1925-26. The Top Graph above plots data from four separate months or epochs, measured at different times of the year and organized by sidereal time, showing a definite periodic curve. The heavy line is the mean of all four epochs. The Bottom Graph (above) plots the same data organized by civil clock time coordinates; here, the plotted data spreads out along the graph, without apparent periodicity. This demonstrates, the detected axis and periodicity of ether drift is the same for different times of year, but can only be seen when the data is viewed within a cosmological, sidereal coordinate system. (From Miller 1928, p.362) These data curves are organized along azimuthal means which were later recomputed for Miller's 1933 publication, as given in Figure 1.


Dayton Miller's results show that there is no such thing as the theory of relativity: his classic experiments do reveal the existence of telluric waves, ether.


Your useless references are completely debunked.

Your statements amount to nothing.


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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2017, 10:21:04 PM »
I'm no fan of 'heliocentrism', but this has been debunked by the fact that if you cut a 1/365th or even 1/180th of a degree of an arc of a circular orbit as described by a orbiting earth, it gives less than a nanosecond of orbital sagnac differences and so is not detected.

But the relativity model with GR easily explains this as orbit's being an inertial frame in non-homogenous 4D space-time, it's not a rotating frame actually, but even with Newtonian assumptions, it's BS to say that an orbital sagnac is larger than a rotation sagnac.
Of course, you repeat your ridiculous nonsense that an orbit of earth is a larger sagnac effect than earth spinning once per 24 hours, which you know as well as I do is false information.


Let's put your word to the test.

"Let's say the unit is at the equator and the satellite is low on the horizon in the east at noon.

That means the unit is traveling at the orbital speed of the earth at 67,000 MPH.

The satellite emits at one speed c in space. While the light travels through space toward the unit at c, the unit moves with the earth at 67,000 MPH. The unit cuts the distance that the light must travel.

This is not being seen by any experiements nor GPS."

Yet, this same logic applies and works with the earth's supposed rotation.


Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/










Both the rotational and the orbital motions of the earth together with the orbital
motion of the target planet contribute to the Sagnac
effect. But the orbital motion of the sun has no effects
on the interplanetary propagation.
On the other hand, as
the unique propagation frame in GPS and intercontinental
links is a geocentric inertial frame, the rotational motion
of the earth contributes to the Sagnac effect. But the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun and that of the
sun have no effects on the earthbound propagation.
By
comparing GPS with interplanetary radar, it is seen that
there is a common Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation
and a common null effect of the orbital motion of the sun
on wave propagation. However, there is a discrepancy in
the Sagnac effect due to earth’s orbital motion.
Moreover,
by comparing GPS with the widely accepted interpretation
of the Michelson–Morley experiment, it is seen that
there is a common null effect of the orbital motions on
wave propagation, whereas there is a discrepancy in the
Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation.


Based on this characteristic of uniqueness and switchability of the propagation frame,
we propose in the following section the local-ether model
of wave propagation to solve the discrepancies in the in-
fluences of earth’s rotational and orbital motions on the
Sagnac effect
and to account for a wide variety of propagation
phenomena.


Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.
Further, for the interstellar propagation where
the source is located beyond the solar system, the orbital
motion of the sun contributes to the interstellar Sagnac
effect as well.

Evidently, as expected, the proposed local-ether model
accounts for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation and
the null effect of earth’s orbital motion in the earthbound
propagations in GPS and intercontinental microwave link
experiments. Meanwhile, in the interplanetary radar, it accounts
for the Sagnac effect due both to earth’s rotation
and to earth’s orbital motion around the sun.


Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v2/c2
=~ 10-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v2/c2∼ 10-12 which is merely 10-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


Here is how to correctly calculate the orbital Sagnac effect:

Earth's radius = 6357 km; r² = 40411449

Earth's orbital radius = 150,000,000 km r² = 22500000000000000

∆t = 4πR²ω/(c²-v²)
or

I use the linear velocity.

∆t = 4πRv/( c² - v² ), where v is the linear velocity.

For the earth's rotation, it is 0.4638333 km/ sec and the orbit v = 30km/sec.

∆t = 0.62831852628 for the earth's orbit.
Total path of the orbit is 2πr=2π(150,000,000 km) = 942,477,780km

Hence, the sagnac effect for a 1 km path, that means light source in the center and two receivers placed at .5km is:
0.62831852628 / 942,477,780km = 6.6666667 e-10 sec / km

Now, for the earth's rotation.
∆t = 4.1170061 e-7 seconds
Total path of the rotation is 2πr=2π(6357 km) = 39942.21 km


4.1170061 e-7 seconds / 39942.21 km = 1.0307407 e-11 sec / km


The sagnac effect for the earth's orbit is greater than that of the rotation.



The orbital Sagnac, though much larger than the rotational Sagnac, is not being registered by GPS satellites.



The lunar laser ranging experiment is an astronomical version of the Sagnac experiment.

However, G. Sagnac used the fringe-shift method to measure indirectly light travel time;
while Dr. Daniel Gezari uses clocks to measure directly light travel time in both directions.

Shooting light to the moon has to do with the behavior of light like GPS.

The arrival time of light to a receptor is influenced by the motion of
the receptor relative to the earth: this is the basic discovery of G. Sagnac.

This fact has to be incorporated into the lunar laser ranging calculations.

Here is a basic reference which confirms this fact:

Ring-laser tests of fundamental physics and geophysics, G.E. Steadman, 1997, pg 15



One needs both the orbital and rotational Sagnac to calculate the correct timing, there is no way around that.


Dr. Daniel Gezari emitted a pulse of photons from a point on earth, bounced those photons off a reflector on the moon, and then recorded the photons’ arrival time at that same point on earth.


Please note the theoretical orbital sagnac shows up in these calculations, but is not picked up/registered/recorded by GPS satellites.

Motion of the Earth-Moon system in orbit around the Sun would average out in a two-way measurement, and only appear as a small (∼3 m/s) second-order residual.

Because of the two-way averaging, the orbital Sagnac effect registered is smaller than usual, however it is not 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac effect, in fact even in the diluted form permitted by the two-way averaging calculation, it represents a significant percentage of the rotational Sagnac effect.


THE SMALL (~3M/S) SECOND ORDER RESIDUAL IS THE ORBITAL SAGNAC.


For instance, the Earth’s full 30 km/s orbital velocity along the line-of-sight would produce a second-order residual velocity of only ~3 m/s, so we cannot preclude the possibility that some part of the 8.4 m /s difference between co and c measured here is a real second-order residual due to motion of the Earth-Moon system relative to an absolute frame.

THE 8.4 M/S DIFFERENCE IS THE ROTATIONAL SAGNAC.


Dr. Daniel Gezari:


For instance, the Earth’s full 30 km/s orbital velocity along the line-of-sight would produce a second-order residual velocity of only ~3 m/s, so we cannot preclude the possibility that some part of the 8.4 m /s difference


3/8.4 = 0.357

1/365 = 0.00274

0.357/0.00274 = 130.3

Now, because of the vast distance, if the RE were correct, we should see 1/365 of the rotational sagnac in the measurements and that will show up on this vast distance.

So, if they are correct, then we should see the 1/365 conclusions in the measurements. Guess what. We do not.

Dr. Daniel Gezari's calculations prove otherwise: even in the diluted two way averaging form, the orbital Sagnac amounts for a 3/8.4 = 0.357 (35.7%) percentage of the rotational Sagnac.


It is also of interest to note that the missing orbital Sagnac effect proves that the lunar missions never occurred in reality, that the lunar laser ranging is actually a small mirror (in the form of a minuscule satellite) orbiting above the flat surface of the Earth right in front of the Moon, using the Biefeld-Brown effect to stay in orbit.


More information on Dr. C.C. Su's paper on the orbital Sagnac effect.

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS

Further information here:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/



Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/qem/f3c.pdf

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.


The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.



Faced with the missing orbital Sagnac effect, relativists have begun to renounce both STR/GTR and to rely on the local aether model (MLET, Modified Lorentz Ether Theory).


The solar gravitational potential effect upon the GPS clocks is also missing:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706


This means that the hypotheses of the RUDERFER EXPERIMENT are totally fulfilled:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721


The existence of aether, however, has several other implications:

It shows that the Moon could not possibly cause the solar eclipse (the Allais effect):

An overview of the Allais effect (parts I - VII):

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1676115#msg1676115 (the Black Sun and the laevorotatory subquarks)

ALLAIS EFFECT:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg760382#msg760382


The ether is DYNAMICAL and not static:

The most significant development since Miller has been the
experiments of Yuri Galaev of the Institute of Radiophysics and
Electronics in the Ukraine. Galaev made independent measure-
ments of ether-drift using radiofrequency and optical wave
bands. His research "confirmed Miller's results down
to the details".

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722791#msg1722791

Yuri Galaev, Ph.D.; Senior research officer of the Institute for Radiophysics & Electronics National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, and corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences (RANS)

THE MEASURING OF ETHER-DRIFT VELOCITY AND KINEMATIC ETHER VISCOSITY WITHIN OPTICAL WAVES BAND Yu.M. Galaev The Institute of Radiophysics and Electronics of NSA in Ukraine

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JackBlack

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2017, 10:29:43 PM »
You haven't done your homework on the subject of ether drift.
Again, that is you.

But you are here to learn.
No, we are here to debate.
That means you don't just spout off a bunch of bullshit and expect us to just accept it.
It means you need to justify your claims and respond to our arguments.

You cannot use Hammar's experiment as proof of anything.
Don't you find it strange how we can't seem to use anything as proof of anything but you can take a single experiment as proof of a bunch of crap?

How about instead of just baselessly asserting crap you explain why Hammar's experiment can't be taken as proof of anything?

Until you can do that, the rest of your crap is irrelevant.

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AltSpace

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2017, 10:35:34 PM »
Until you can do that, the rest of your crap is irrelevant.
If I didn't know better, I would assume he is a computer database bot for FE/Geocentric information, lol.
Large posts of copy-paste all the time.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
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sandokhan

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2017, 10:45:24 PM »
They are called bibliographical references.

Which are much better than yours.

Large posts of copy-paste all the time.

My global logarithm/cosine/exponential/arctangent formulas:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1910773#msg1910773

Eighteen messages on the relationship between the sacred cubit and the zeros of Riemann's zeta function:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1954639#msg1954639

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JackBlack

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2017, 11:46:24 PM »
They are called bibliographical references.
No they aren't.
They are called massive walls of irrelevant garbage, aka spam.

Proper use of referencing would be to explain something in your own words and link to various citations.

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Username

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2017, 12:54:33 AM »
Debunking luminiferous aether just leads to null hypotheses. Seems true to me then.
If you can't argue both sides, you understand neither

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AltSpace

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2017, 12:56:45 AM »
You haven't done your homework on the subject of ether drift.
If I haven't, demonstrate what I'm saying is wrong, because so far you done nothing other than use a flawed experiment that contradicts the others, especially modern ones, and put up a bunch of irrelevant copy-paste in addition to that.
Quote
You cannot use Hammar's experiment as proof of anything.
And as I have pointed out, you can't use the Miller experiment as proof of anything. In order for aether to work as an idea, it must be consistent, and without a detection of aether wind at equal to the stars rotation, once per 24 hours, it contradicts the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment. Since aether wind has failed to be detected, we can conclude that it simply doesn't work.
Quote
T. Roberts is a relativity theory fundamentalist, he says for instance: Relativity is well established in its domain of applicability...
Because it has been well established.
Quote
James DeMeo did have a chance to respond to his statistical analysis, here it is:
Which I can't find in that large flurry of posts on that link.

Quote
How long will modern physics refuse to look at this
issue with open eyes and intelligent, fair-minded critique? Sorry to
say, Tom, your analysis is faulty on a number of levels, and does not
touch Miller's findings and conclusions anymore than the Shankland
hit-article did. It is a pity you did not consult with the advocates
of ether-drift prior to undertaking your analysis, as it could have
saved you a lot of time, and perhaps guided you to analyze the proper
set of data, from Mt. Wilson. But I still don't see how your method
can do more than point out the obvious, that the signal is often buried
in the noise. Lots of scientific problems suffer from this difficulty,
but progress nevertheless towards deeper understandings.
So all they do here is assert that his analysis is faulty and that he should consult pro-aether advocates to explain why they have to rely on a couple failed disturbed experiments that seem to contradict all the rest with apparent aether drag? That's hardly any argument against it.

Quote
And here are Yuri Galaev's ether drift results, which cannot be ignored either:

http://www.mountainman.com.au/aether_6.htm

How about instead of pointing to a few experiments, address all the others which get the same result, no aether wind.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1964PhRv..133.1221J
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1973PhRvD...8.3321T
http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/Publikationen/2009/Eisele%20et%20al%20Laboratory%20Test%20of%20the%20Isotropy%20of%20Light%20Propagation%20at%20the%2010-17%20Level%202009.pdf
https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.80.105011
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.90.060402
https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0305117.pdf
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005PhRvL..95d0404S
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006PhRvD..74h1101S
And not mention the older experiments done in Miller's time, other than a couple of Miller's experiments, got a null result.

Michelson[4]   Potsdam   1881   1.2   0.04   ≤ 0.02   2   ∼ 20 km/s   0.02   {\displaystyle \approx } \approx  yes
Michelson and Morley[1]   Cleveland   1887   11.0   0.4   < 0.02
or ≤ 0.01   40   ∼ 4–8 km/s   0.01   {\displaystyle \approx } \approx  yes
Morley and Miller[12][13]   Cleveland   1902–1904   32.2   1.13   ≤ 0.015   80   ∼ 3.5 km/s   0.015   yes
Miller[17]   Mt. Wilson   1921   32.0   1.12   ≤ 0.08   15   ∼ 8–10 km/s   unclear   unclear
Miller[17]   Cleveland   1923–1924   32.0   1.12   ≤ 0.03   40   ∼ 5 km/s   0.03   yes
Miller (sunlight)[17]   Cleveland   1924   32.0   1.12   ≤ 0.014   80   ∼ 3 km/s   0.014   yes
Tomaschek (star light)[18]   Heidelberg   1924   8.6   0.3   ≤ 0.02   15   ∼ 7 km/s   0.02   yes
Miller[17][A 12]   Mt. Wilson   1925–1926   32.0   1.12   ≤ 0.088   13   ∼ 8–10 km/s   unclear   unclear
Kennedy[14]   Pasadena/Mt. Wilson   1926   2.0   0.07   ≤ 0.002   35   ∼ 5 km/s   0.002   yes
Illingworth[15]   Pasadena   1927   2.0   0.07   ≤ 0.0004   175   ∼ 2 km/s   0.0004   yes
Piccard & Stahel[19]   with a Balloon   1926   2.8   0.13   ≤ 0.006   20   ∼ 7 km/s   0.006   yes
Piccard & Stahel[20]   Brussels   1927   2.8   0.13   ≤ 0.0002   185   ∼ 2.5 km/s   0.0007   yes
Piccard & Stahel[21]   Rigi   1927   2.8   0.13   ≤ 0.0003   185   ∼ 2.5 km/s   0.0007   yes
Michelson et al.[22]   Mt. Wilson   1929   25.9   0.9   ≤ 0.01   90   ∼ 3 km/s   0.01   yes
Joos[16]   Jena   1930   21.0   0.75   ≤ 0.002   375   ∼ 1.5 km/s   0.002   yes

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment#Subsequent_experiments

So, you got just about all experiments, especially modern interferometers and Resonators against your few questionable experiments (which happen to be conducted by a strong pro-aether advocate of the time).

So, no there is no aether wind detected, and it especially doesn't match Earth's rotation as it would in the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment.


As for the rest, since you don't care to engage in word typed explanation discussion, I'll start adding more stuff (mimicking you):


THE FORGOTTEN PAPERS THAT DEBUNK THE AETHER ALONG WITH THE MICHELSON-MORLEY AND OPTICAL RESONATOR MEASURMENTS (forgotten by modern pro-aether advocates):
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1925ApJ....61..137M&amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;type=PRINTER&amp;filetype=.pdf

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1925ApJ....61..140M&amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;type=PRINTER&amp;filetype=.pdf

A rectangular tract of land at Clearing, Illinois, 2010 feet from
east to west and 1113 feet from north to south, was carefully surveyed
and staked by Dr. Kannenstine, and twelve-inch water pipes
were laid straight and level around the entire circuit with a double
line across one end.
The general plan of the arrangement is shown in Figure 1. Castiron
boxes at the corners contained the mirrors. Figure 2 shows the
details of one of the corner boxes. Delicate screw-and-lever systems,
operated from outside the boxes through carefully fitted beveled
joints, rendered it possible to adjust the mirrors readily about
horizontal or vertical axes. The boxes were set in heavy concrete
piers, and connected to the pipes by flexible joints of canvas and
rubber. Similar joints were inserted in the pipe lines, about four
hundred feet apart, and served as expansion joints.
The plane-parallel plates at A and B were lightly coated with
gold, and that at C with silver, to reflect and transmit the desired
proportions of fight. The mirrors at D, E, and F were heavily silvered.
A telephone system, consisting of portable sets kindly loaned
by the Chicago Telephone Company, made it possible for an observer
at A to direct assistants, one at each corner, when an adjustment
of the mirrors was necessary. A Worthington air-pump, driven by a 50 horse-power motor, reduced the pressure in the pipe to about a
half-inch in three hours. Most of the measurements were made when
the residual air in the pipes had been reduced to a pressure of about
half an inch to one inch of mercury. At these pressures the fringes
were perfectly steady, and as sharply defined as could be desired. The fringes to be measured were those formed by the beams going
in opposite directions about the circuit ADEF. As a fiducial
mark from which to measure the displacement, a second set of
fringes was formed by the mirror system ABCD. The area inclosed
by this circuit was much too small to give a measurable displacement
of the fringes, and the shifts actually recorded were those between
the central fringes of the two sets.
In general the two sets of fringes will not coincide in position,
entirely aside from any question of ether drift or the earth’s rotation,
unless the two direct images and the two reflected images of the
source are exactly superposed. The central fringes of the set formed
by the mirrors of the short circuit will be halfway between the direct
and reflected images of the source, and the central fringe of the long
line would be halfway between the direct and reflected images if
there were no difference due to the earth’s rotation.
To correct for any lack of superposition of the two sets of rays,
the observing telescope (a six-inch achromatic objective, and twoinch
micrometer eyepiece) was focused on the images of the source
(arc or slit) and the apparent displacement of the central fringe of
the long circuit, compared with the central fringe of the short circuit,
was corrected by an amount equal to the difference in the mean
positions of the two images for the two light circuits. The fringes
are most conveniently observed in the overlapping cones of light
an inch or so inside or outside of the focal plane.
About half of the determinations were made with the arc placed
directly in froñt of the window at A, and about half with a condensing
lens, slit, and collimating lens. The second arrangement
gave much more light than the first, but there was no apparent
difference in the measured displacements.
The calculated value of the displacement on the assumption of a
stationary ether as well as in accordance with relativity is

where A is the displacement in fringes, A ' the area in square kilometers,
(¡> the latitude (4i°46'), V the velocity of light, co the angular
velocity of the earth, and X the effective wave-length of the light
used. Measurements were made in the laboratory, comparing the
fringes produced by the same set of mirrors and the same 20-ampere
alternating-current arc, with fringes produced by sodium light from
a bit of glass in an oxyhydrogen flame. The light from the arc was
reduced to approximately the same intensity as in the experiment
at Clearing, by transmitting it through a rather narrow slit in a rotating disk. The mean of ten determinations gave X = 57ood= 50
angstroms.
The displacement of the fringes due to the earth’s rotation was
measured on many different days, with complete readjustments of
the mirrors, with the reflected image sometimes on the right and
sometimes on the left of the transmitted image, and by different observers.
The deflections were averaged usually in sets of twenty, in
the order in which they were taken. The resulting means are given
in Table I. The entire set of two hundred and sixty-nine determinations and their distribution about the mean value is shown graphically
in Figure 3. The final displacement, expressed as a fraction of
a fringe, is
o.23o=1=.oo5 obs. 0.236=*=.002 calc.
In view of the difficulty of the observations, this must be taken to
mean that the observed and calculated shifts agree within the
limits of observational error.
The successful completion of this experiment is due in no small
measure to the friendly co-operation of the officials of the City of Chicago, Colonel A. A. Sprague, commissioner of public works;
Mr. H. L. Lucas, superintendent of the Water Pipe Extension
Division, and to Mr. B. W. Cullen, superintendent of the South
District of the same Division; to the courtesy of the Clearing Industrial District, through Mr. Henry H. Porter; to the kindness
of the Chicago Telephone Company, and to the hearty and enthusiastic
support of the University. We are especially indebted to
President Burton, Mr. J. C. Dinsmore, Mr. L. R. Flook, and to
Messrs. Thomas O’Donnell, Joseph Purdy, and Charles Stein.


The aether must therefore be rotating around earth once per 24 hours, as if it is rotating. However, modern optical resonator experiments accurate to the 10^-17 fail to detect an aether wind, meaning that the aether wind is not there, but that contradicts the results of MGP, which means only one thing, there is no luminiferous aether.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 01:02:04 AM by AltSpace »
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
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AltSpace

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Re: The Luminiferous Aether is easy to debunk
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2017, 12:58:21 AM »
Continued:

Modern top sensitive resonator measurement accurate to the 10^-17:
"The principle of local Lorentz invariance (LLI) states
that any physical process in an inertial laboratory evolves
independently of the latter’s state of motion and of its
orientation. LLI is a postulate of the current theories of
the fundamental interactions, general relativity and the
standard model. However, theoretical work towards a uni-
fied theory of all forces suggests that LLI may only be an
approximate principle. This motivates experimental tests
of LLI with increased sensitivity. Recent experiments on
different microscopic and macroscopic systems, as well as
astronomical tests have not found any violation [1–16].
One aspect of local Lorentz invariance, the isotropy of
space, can be tested with Michelson-Morley-type experiments
[17]. According to the conventional interpretation,
they search for a possible dependence of the speed of
light on the propagation direction. Within the RobertsonMansouri-Sexl
(RMS) test theory of special relativity
[18,19], a classical test theory, this experiment type provides
one of three experiments required to determine the
form of the Lorentz transformations, the others being a
measurement of time dilation [15] and a test of the independence
of the speed of light from the speed of the
laboratory [16]. Within a modern field theoretical description
of LLI violation, the standard model extension (SME)
[20], it is shown that Michelson-Morley-type experiments
are sensitive to at least eight independent coefficients that
determine the contribution of certain terms in the LLI
violating Lagrangian [12,21]. Confining the analysis of a
Michelson-Morley-type experiment to the photonic sector
of that Lagrangian, also leads to the interpretation of a
variable speed of light.
In this Letter we report on an isotropy test experiment
with significantly improved sensitivity compared to previous
ones [2–6,10]. Its sensitivity to isotropy violation
signatures (the beat frequency modulation amplitudes B,
C, see below) is at the level of less than 1 part in 1015 per
rotation, and averaging over a large number of rotations,
allowed us reaching the level of a few parts in 1017.
Our apparatus is shown in Fig. 1 and a preliminary description
of the apparatus has been given in Ref. [22]. It
comprises a pair of orthogonally oriented optical standingwave
cavities interrogated by laser waves [Fig. 1(a)]. The
laser waves’ frequencies are kept equal to the cavity frequencies
1, 2. The difference 1 2 (‘‘beat frequency’’)
is the quantity of interest—a test of isotropy
consists in searching for a change of the beat frequency
with changing orientation in space. The main design aim
was a high dimensional stability of the cavities and a precise
readout of the cavities’ frequencies 1, 2 by the laser.
Salient features of the apparatus, shown in Fig. 1(b), are the
following: an air cushion rotation table with low axis
wobble and low vibration level; active stabilization of the
normal of the optics breadboard during rotation; an active
vibration isolation system that reduces the acceleration
level present on the optical plate; optical cavities with low
thermal noise; low thermal sensitivity; precision frequency
locking of the laser wave to the cavities. The rotation table
consists of a 1.3 ton octagonal granite base on which a
cross-shaped frame moves on a thin air cushion. The axis
of the frame is held and stabilized in the horizontal plane
by a radial air bearing, which also provides a rotary feedthrough
for power supply and signals. The rotational motion
is produced by a set of piezoelectric translators. The
rotational axis shows a very small wobble (few rad) with
respect to the base. However, the tilt of the laboratory floor
and therefore the average rotation axis direction is not
constant in time. To compensate for this effect, the tilt of
the base plate of the rotation table is stabilized using an air
spring system, and the optics breadboard carrying the
cavities is additionally placed on a base that regulates the
residual tilt and provides active vibration isolation."

Conclusion:

"In conclusion, we find no clear evidence for a violation
of isotropy of the frequency of a linear electromagnetic
cavity, analyzed either within the RMS model, or within
the SME limited to the photonic sector. The 1 uncertainties
of the SME violation coefficients (~e) and ð~oþÞ
are equal to or less than 2  1017, except for ð~eÞ
ZZ,
where a conservative estimate is 12  1017. Within the
RMS model our experiment shows that the anisotropy of the speed of light on Earth, ð1=2Þjcð=2Þj=c0, is less than
0:6  1017 (1 level).
These results represent a strong
improvement on previous experiments. We stress that, independent
of the particular model used in deriving violation
coefficients (and the interpretation in terms of isotropy
of c given here), the experimental results represent a strong
test of one aspect of local Lorentz invariance, the independence
of the outcome of experiments from orientation."

- http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/Publikationen/2009/Eisele%20et%20al%20Laboratory%20Test%20of%20the%20Isotropy%20of%20Light%20Propagation%20at%20the%2010-17%20Level%202009.pdf

So even with the top accurate measurements we got now, there still is no anisotropy of the speed of light, despite that it should be derivable as was done with the Michelson-Gale-Pearson interferometer.

So, if you'd be so kind Sandokhan, please personally explain how your few experiments cited overturn all the modern sensitive interferometers and resonators measurements and show an aether wind equivalent to the Michelson-Gale-Pearson measurement. Until you do that, I'd say aether is debunked (easily) right here (well, it already was long before, but this is another reminder on the FES forums of that).

Oh, and one other thing you said:

Quote
The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


Here is how to correctly calculate the orbital Sagnac effect:

Earth's radius = 6357 km; r² = 40411449

Earth's orbital radius = 150,000,000 km r² = 22500000000000000

∆t = 4πR²ω/(c²-v²)
or

I use the linear velocity.

∆t = 4πRv/( c² - v² ), where v is the linear velocity.

For the earth's rotation, it is 0.4638333 km/ sec and the orbit v = 30km/sec.

∆t = 0.62831852628 for the earth's orbit.
Total path of the orbit is 2πr=2π(150,000,000 km) = 942,477,780km

Hence, the sagnac effect for a 1 km path, that means light source in the center and two receivers placed at .5km is:
0.62831852628 / 942,477,780km = 6.6666667 e-10 sec / km

Now, for the earth's rotation.
∆t = 4.1170061 e-7 seconds
Total path of the rotation is 2πr=2π(6357 km) = 39942.21 km


4.1170061 e-7 seconds / 39942.21 km = 1.0307407 e-11 sec / km


The sagnac effect for the earth's orbit is greater than that of the rotation.

Alright, let's make this easy and see how much different an orbit and rotation would be.

Sagnac Effect: dt = 4Aw/c^2
dt= Difference in time
A= Area enclose by light path
w= angular velocity of the spin in radians per second
c= speed of light

I don't even have to calculate to know your "the sagnac effect for the earth's orbit is greater than that of the rotation" is wrong. The orbital vs rotational sagnac has the same speed of light and same area enclosed by the path, the only think left is the angular velocity of the rotation and you get dt. Angular velocity is the rate of change in angular displacement with respect to time, which is far more in a rotation of Earth than an orbit. The angular velocity of Earth's rotation is 7.2921159 × 10^-5, and the earth's orbit would be 2.0x10^-7 rad/s.

So, no, the orbital sagnac is not greater but less than the rotational, because the angular velocity is more for the rotational, which is why I say the rotational is 1/365th of the orbital, which shows the angular velocity difference in a day. You mistakenly use linear velocity which does not hold in the sagnac effect, but rather angular velocity.

Great read and explanation of the Sagnac Effect: http://www.space-lab.ru/files/pages/PIRT_VII-XII/pages/text/PIRT_IX/Kelly_2.pdf

I don't know how I got onto this in the first place, it's a bit irrelevant anyways, but it is one of your ridiculous nonsense that is so clearly false.



So, you still got nothing, your luminiferous aether has still been debunked.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein