Is the moon flat or spherical?

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:22:39 AM

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment, or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Are you intentionally not paying attention?  The diagram is valid even if the moon is self illuminating. There is yet another problem with your model and your reply, again, adds nothing to the discussion.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

Quote from: Gumwars on September 17, 2017, 11:29:10 AM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:22:39 AM

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment, or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Are you intentionally not paying attention?  The diagram is valid even if the moon is self illuminating. There is yet another problem with your model and your reply, again, adds nothing to the discussion.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

Hold up, do you care to elaborate on how the air isn't clear?

Of course. It is filled with dust, water and other particles that limit the viewing range of anything through it, unlike perhaps empty space. This is also why you can't see Europe from the eastern coast of the United States.

Of course. It is filled with dust, water and other particles that limit the viewing range of anything through it, unlike perhaps empty space. This is also why you can't see Europe from the eastern coast of the United States.

Europe is obscured from view (from the eastern coast of the United States), by the curvature of the earth.

Haven't you been paying attention to reality?

Of course. It is filled with dust, water and other particles that limit the viewing range of anything through it, unlike perhaps empty space. This is also why you can't see Europe from the eastern coast of the United States.

That doesn't add up.  According to your model the moon is roughly 3000 miles from the surface of the world, correct?  It is highly visible down to very specific surface details visible to the naked eye and even more so with a telescope.  The distance, as a crow flies, from NY to Dublin, Ireland is 3100 miles.  So what's missing here?  I'll accept some loss of visibility due to surface clutter but with elevation that shouldn't be an issue.  So, a couple of questions: if whatever phenomenon of 'unclean air' is at work between observer and the moon is insufficient to prevent highly detailed surface features from being visible but at roughly the same distance all of the British isle is hidden from sight?

At what altitude do you suspect Britain would be visible from New York? Additionally, do you have a study, journal article, or other resource that explains this phenomenon?

Quote from: Gumwars on September 17, 2017, 11:29:10 AM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:22:39 AM

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment, or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Are you intentionally not paying attention?  The diagram is valid even if the moon is self illuminating. There is yet another problem with your model and your reply, again, adds nothing to the discussion.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

John, I think that you are the one who might not be paying attention.  Regardless of how the moon is illuminated, the generally accepted size and height of the FE moon means that an observer should see significant differences in the moon's size, shape, surface features, etc., over the course of several hours which are actually observed.

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:30:36 AM

Quote from: Gumwars on September 17, 2017, 11:29:10 AM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:22:39 AM

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment, or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Are you intentionally not paying attention?  The diagram is valid even if the moon is self illuminating. There is yet another problem with your model and your reply, again, adds nothing to the discussion.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

John, I think that you are the one who might not be paying attention.  Regardless of how the moon is illuminated, the generally accepted size and height of the FE moon means that an observer should see significant differences in the moon's size, shape, surface features, etc., over the course of several hours which are actually observed.

I'm even giving him a pass on all that. I just want to know what's up with this 'unclear air' concept. I don't think there is a good explanation coming but I'm sure it will be entertaining.

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:39:23 AM

Of course. It is filled with dust, water and other particles that limit the viewing range of anything through it, unlike perhaps empty space. This is also why you can't see Europe from the eastern coast of the United States.

Europe is obscured from view (from the eastern coast of the United States), by the curvature of the earth.

Haven't you been paying attention to reality?

Have you never been on a boat? Can you really deny that air obscures your view as once nearby objects 'fade into the distance' as the poets say? Have you ever driven towards or away from mountains? Do they rise up like giants over your car dashboard, or do they instead fade in? Even on a plane, do cities curve into your view? No, they fade into it.

To think air is clear is to think that you can see clearly with the naked eye the stars during the day. What a silly concept. I must ask - are you paying attention to reality? What colour is your sky on your silly globe?

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:30:36 AM

Quote from: Gumwars on September 17, 2017, 11:29:10 AM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:22:39 AM

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment, or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Are you intentionally not paying attention?  The diagram is valid even if the moon is self illuminating. There is yet another problem with your model and your reply, again, adds nothing to the discussion.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

John, I think that you are the one who might not be paying attention.  Regardless of how the moon is illuminated, the generally accepted size and height of the FE moon means that an observer should see significant differences in the moon's size, shape, surface features, etc., over the course of several hours which are actually observed.

I didn't see that shown at all. I saw an inaccurately scaled diagram making wild claims. I'd love to address that argument, should it be presented.

And so the dance continues...

John, are you going to address my comments from post 124?

Quote from: markjo on September 17, 2017, 12:10:05 PM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:30:36 AM

Quote from: Gumwars on September 17, 2017, 11:29:10 AM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:22:39 AM

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment, or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Are you intentionally not paying attention?  The diagram is valid even if the moon is self illuminating. There is yet another problem with your model and your reply, again, adds nothing to the discussion.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

John, I think that you are the one who might not be paying attention.  Regardless of how the moon is illuminated, the generally accepted size and height of the FE moon means that an observer should see significant differences in the moon's size, shape, surface features, etc., over the course of several hours which are actually observed.

I didn't see that shown at all. I saw an inaccurately scaled diagram making wild claims. I'd love to address that argument, should it be presented.

John, are you sure that you were paying attention to the diagram?  Regardless of the accuracy of the scale (or lack thereof), the issues remain.

This problem is that on the flat earth a spherical moon is seen at a wide range of angles, as in this diagram:

Full moon flat earth, scale height, enlarged objects

Clearly observers at various locations on earth see different phases, with no-one seeing a truly full moon.

Of course. It is filled with dust, water and other particles that limit the viewing range of anything through it, unlike perhaps empty space. This is also why you can't see Europe from the eastern coast of the United States.

You are correct, in that dust and other particles limit visibility,  but even in perfectly clear air visibility is limited by Rayleigh scattering to about 300 km. 

It's this fact that should make the horizon on the flat earth a fuzzy blue line, rather than the sharp line we see on a clear day.   

Quote from: Here to laugh at you on September 17, 2017, 12:01:21 PM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:39:23 AM

Of course. It is filled with dust, water and other particles that limit the viewing range of anything through it, unlike perhaps empty space. This is also why you can't see Europe from the eastern coast of the United States.

Europe is obscured from view (from the eastern coast of the United States), by the curvature of the earth.

Haven't you been paying attention to reality?

Have you never been on a boat? Can you really deny that air obscures your view as once nearby objects 'fade into the distance' as the poets say? Have you ever driven towards or away from mountains? Do they rise up like giants over your car dashboard, or do they instead fade in? Even on a plane, do cities curve into your view? No, they fade into it.

To think air is clear is to think that you can see clearly with the naked eye the stars during the day. What a silly concept. I must ask - are you paying attention to reality? What colour is your sky on your silly globe?

Tell me, why is the horizon on a clear day, a razor sharp line between sea and sky?

I have been to sea many times, on a clear day, land most definitely DOES rise over the horizon. It certainly doesn't appear out of some made up haze! (Explain how stars can be seen perfectly clear on the horizon at night?)


I could tell you the sky was neon green, and it would carry as much weight as your silly flat pizza delusions.

Quote from: markjo on September 17, 2017, 12:10:05 PM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:30:36 AM

Quote from: Gumwars on September 17, 2017, 11:29:10 AM

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:22:39 AM

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment, or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Are you intentionally not paying attention?  The diagram is valid even if the moon is self illuminating. There is yet another problem with your model and your reply, again, adds nothing to the discussion.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

John, I think that you are the one who might not be paying attention.  Regardless of how the moon is illuminated, the generally accepted size and height of the FE moon means that an observer should see significant differences in the moon's size, shape, surface features, etc., over the course of several hours which are actually observed.

I didn't see that shown at all. I saw an inaccurately scaled diagram making wild claims. I'd love to address that argument, should it be presented.

It has been.  Here:  https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71753.0

JROA has been doing a fairly ridiculous job of explaining how this is possible using the FE model.  I'm sure you'll be able to avoid any answer that implicates your precious worldview.

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

Of course "the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory" as it is in any theory that I know.
But what has that to do with my diagram? I have shown the the sun a self luminary.

You are either fucking with us for your own enjoyment,

Please keep a civil tongue in your head!
I am trying to honestly present what I see as the flat earth explanation of the moon, it's phases and appearance.

or you have been unable to learn one of the most base and known facts about the flat earth replicated in almost every view and every publication on the subject in the last hundred years as well as threads you have been actively engaged in.

Really? If your own Wiki is not reliable information there's not much I can do about it.
Elsewhere I see so many disparate ideas about flat earth theory, that it seems no two flat earthers believe the same thing.
Maybe you could point to somewhere with accurate information.

Where am I supposed to read what the society believes? In a book over 130 years old or in the society's own "Wiki"?

The Moon
The moon is a sphere. It has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

and

The Phases of the Moon

When one observes the phases of the moon he is simply observing the moon's day and night, a natural shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.

When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.
When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.
When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.

That is what I tried to depict, if I was wrong, you might correct my diagram.

But you seem unable to grasp the point that everyone, no matter where they are on earth, sees the moon as circular and see the same face.

But on the flat earth, with the moon only some 3000 miles above, the moon is viewed from many different faces.

Hence, unless you have some solution, the moon we see is quite incompatible with the flat earth model..

Of course. It is filled with dust, water and other particles that limit the viewing range of anything through it, unlike perhaps empty space. This is also why you can't see Europe from the eastern coast of the United States.

but than the question comes up why does the sun drops below the horizon at sun set and does not fade out because of visibility?
also why is the time of sun set can be precise predicted based on the heliocentric model. the air is always different in view of visibility but the time of sun set is not influenced by that.

How about you explain that.
 

I stumbled on Flat Earth Theory about 2 days ago and I've been reading everything I can about it. Right now I'm pulling my hair out on the level of outright stupidity it takes to believe that stuff.

The fellow Vsnh811 was the only one I thought was really on the fence looking for the truth. Especially in a thread where one sceptic dude was denying nuclear power. That guy by the way, is either a very excellent troll (making him a very stupid person) or too stupid for words (still making him a very stupid person I guess).  I thought Vsnh811 was trully searching for the truth. But reading through this thread, I realise Vsnh811 is the most dangerous kind of Flat Earther possible. This is a fellow that can see through all the flaws of the theory, that can see the holes and pitfalls, but is soo damned determined to believe it that he is begging for any other explanation that can help him live the delusion.

Dude, what did NASA do to you? What did every world government (well not so much these guys any way), and millions of scientists, astronomers, educators, astronauts, engineers, pilots, physicists, soldiers and all sort of humans do to you that even when you can see the falsehood you are still determined to believe that all these people are lying and in some kind of conspiracy to do just WHAT to you?

Rabinoz, the sun is self luminary in flat earth theory, and thus your diagram is not only useless, but shows a disregard for paying any attention to flat earth theory at all or even picking up any book on it ever before attacking us for our views.

So, how would you redraw this situation so that it correctly expresses situation on flat earth. That means both persons should see same moon phase.

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

If "the sun acts like a spotlight" just transfer these daylight patterns onto your favourite flat earth map and then explain how this spotlight manages such a weird pattern.

Day and Night World Map Jun 21 2017

Day and Night World Map Sep 23 2017

Day and Night World Map Dec 22 2017

That must be some magic spotlight to cover those weird shapes.
Claiming limited visibility through the atmosphere won't cut it either as the distances from the sun's location varies so much on ant flat earth map.

Of course on a Globe, it looks so simple! Just a little over a hemisphere in all cases - funny that!

Quote from: John Davis on September 17, 2017, 11:30:36 AM

It is not, because air is not clear and the sun acts like a spotlight due to this. Are you even paying attention?

If "the sun acts like a spotlight" just transfer these daylight patterns onto your favourite flat earth map and then explain how this spotlight manages such a weird pattern.

Day and Night World Map Jun 21 2017

Day and Night World Map Sep 23 2017

Day and Night World Map Dec 22 2017

That must be some magic spotlight to cover those weird shapes.
Claiming limited visibility through the atmosphere won't cut it either as the distances from the sun's location varies so much on ant flat earth map.

Of course on a Globe, it looks so simple! Just a little over a hemisphere in all cases - funny that!

How dare you provide information from NASA?
(Even when said information comes from Russia, ESA, China, Japan, North Korea, my neighbourhood astronomy club..... as long as it is a picture from/of space, it is from NASA)
By the way, the picture is fake!