This is all a bit absurd.

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

you claim that a block of steel with the same dimension as a block of Aluminium have the same density?

No I don't.

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

why do they than have a different weight?

One displaces more atmosphere than the other, or if you want to go the other way. One absorbs more atmosphere than the other.

please present any experimental prove for that claim

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

please show us any prove for that claim.

No. Do it yourself or leave it. I'm not arsed either way.

you did that crazy claim, therefore you have to prove it.

Scepti-corn is practically creaming in his jeans  right now to have all of your attention! 

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:39:31 AM

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

you claim that a block of steel with the same dimension as a block of Aluminium have the same density?

No I don't.

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

why do they than have a different weight?

One displaces more atmosphere than the other, or if you want to go the other way. One absorbs more atmosphere than the other.

please present any experimental prove for that claim

Quote

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

please show us any prove for that claim.

No. Do it yourself or leave it. I'm not arsed either way.

you did that crazy claim, therefore you have to prove it.

And that concludes our conversation.
Feel free to rattle on whilst I overlook your posts.

Scepti-corn is practically creaming in his jeans  right now to have all of your attention! 

They have a choice not to oblige but they just can't help it.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Actually, you would only need one chamber with any object inside.  By your theory reducing the pressure inside the chamber will change the weight on the scale.  We wouldn't even need two setups.

Mike

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:49:44 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Mike

The atmosphere alters the scales.... in his model...

Also, if you do these tests underwater.... the scale may or may not be altered as well... it depends what you are weighing and how good your point is. And Submarines cannot stay underwater for longer than a couple of days. Because you run out of air...

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:54:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:49:44 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Mike

The atmosphere alters the scales.... in his logic...

Also, if you do these tests underwater.... the scale may or may not be altered as well... it depends what you are weighing and how good your point is. And Submarines cannot stay underwater for longer than a couple of days. Because you run out of air...

My point is the scale is outside the chamber.  Therefore the scale will read the weight of the chamber and it's contents.  The scale is external so is unaffected.

Mike

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:49:44 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Actually, you would only need one chamber with any object inside.  By your theory reducing the pressure inside the chamber will change the weight on the scale.  We wouldn't even need two setups.

Mike

It has some potential to show change but not enough to convince some.
Just remember, no matter what chamber it is that's being evacuated it will never be a vacuum.

Let me just make something really clear.
A true vacuum would evacuate ALL of the atmosphere from any object. It would render that object not an object.

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:45:01 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:39:31 AM

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

you claim that a block of steel with the same dimension as a block of Aluminium have the same density?

No I don't.

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

why do they than have a different weight?

One displaces more atmosphere than the other, or if you want to go the other way. One absorbs more atmosphere than the other.

please present any experimental prove for that claim

Quote

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 08:29:32 AM

please show us any prove for that claim.

No. Do it yourself or leave it. I'm not arsed either way.

you did that crazy claim, therefore you have to prove it.

And that concludes our conversation.
Feel free to rattle on whilst I overlook your posts.

its clear why you overlook my posts, simply because you can not show that you are right.

you are simple confirming that you know that you are wrong and therefor you do not even try to prove it to me and others.

Quote from: RocketSauce on October 17, 2017, 08:57:10 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:54:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:49:44 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Mike

The atmosphere alters the scales.... in his logic...

Also, if you do these tests underwater.... the scale may or may not be altered as well... it depends what you are weighing and how good your point is. And Submarines cannot stay underwater for longer than a couple of days. Because you run out of air...

My point is the scale is outside the chamber.  Therefore the scale will read the weight of the chamber and it's contents.  The scale is external so is unaffected.

Mike

But you are transferring atmosphere from the container to the external so you change nothing other than placing that atmosphere back onto the chamber.

To make it easier for you to understand.
Imagine you live underwater. Imagine that your water is your atmosphere.
You have a chamber and it's obviously full of your water as is everything around you.
You push water away from the chamber to allow the water inside to escape. (we must assume water can expand and contract like atmosphere).

Ok so you push the water away from the chamber and that water is now added into the surrounding water and is now adding more pressure to the external chamber, with the internal chamber being weaker in terms of withstanding the pressure due to no equilibrium.

its clear why you overlook my posts, simply because you can not show that you are right.

you are simple confirming that you know that you are wrong and therefor you do not even try to prove it to me and others.

It's because all you do is whine.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 09:00:06 AM

Quote from: RocketSauce on October 17, 2017, 08:57:10 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:54:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:49:44 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Mike

The atmosphere alters the scales.... in his logic...

Also, if you do these tests underwater.... the scale may or may not be altered as well... it depends what you are weighing and how good your point is. And Submarines cannot stay underwater for longer than a couple of days. Because you run out of air...

My point is the scale is outside the chamber.  Therefore the scale will read the weight of the chamber and it's contents.  The scale is external so is unaffected.

Mike

But you are transferring atmosphere from the container to the external so you change nothing other than placing that atmosphere back onto the chamber.

To make it easier for you to understand.
Imagine you live underwater. Imagine that your water is your atmosphere.
You have a chamber and it's obviously full of your water as is everything around you.
You push water away from the chamber to allow the water inside to escape. (we must assume water can expand and contract like atmosphere).

Ok so you push the water away from the chamber and that water is now added into the surrounding water and is now adding more pressure to the external chamber, with the internal chamber being weaker in terms of withstanding the pressure due to no equilibrium.

why do you have to do this analogy?

as a reminder: water is almost incompressible, atmosphere is compressible.

What is the difference in Volume of a Full SCUBA tank and an Empty SCUBA tank?


Or for that Matter, a Propane tank?


If I take an Empty SCUBA tank, how much water will it displace versus how much water will it displace if it is full

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 09:20:28 AM

its clear why you overlook my posts, simply because you can not show that you are right.

you are simple confirming that you know that you are wrong and therefor you do not even try to prove it to me and others.

It's because all you do is whine.

not whine, we ask for prove of your claims.

This is all just absurd!

Right?!?!?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 09:21:01 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 09:00:06 AM

Quote from: RocketSauce on October 17, 2017, 08:57:10 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:54:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:49:44 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Mike

The atmosphere alters the scales.... in his logic...

Also, if you do these tests underwater.... the scale may or may not be altered as well... it depends what you are weighing and how good your point is. And Submarines cannot stay underwater for longer than a couple of days. Because you run out of air...

My point is the scale is outside the chamber.  Therefore the scale will read the weight of the chamber and it's contents.  The scale is external so is unaffected.

Mike

But you are transferring atmosphere from the container to the external so you change nothing other than placing that atmosphere back onto the chamber.

To make it easier for you to understand.
Imagine you live underwater. Imagine that your water is your atmosphere.
You have a chamber and it's obviously full of your water as is everything around you.
You push water away from the chamber to allow the water inside to escape. (we must assume water can expand and contract like atmosphere).

Ok so you push the water away from the chamber and that water is now added into the surrounding water and is now adding more pressure to the external chamber, with the internal chamber being weaker in terms of withstanding the pressure due to no equilibrium.

why do you have to do this analogy?

as a reminder: water is almost incompressible, atmosphere is compressible.

This is why you get overlooked.
Take a massive break.

No need for mathematical formulas to get the understanding. It just requires the ability to want to.

Scepti, why is it so hard for you to understand why it's so hard for some of us to take denpressure seriously when you steadfastly refuse to quantify it?  If you can't do any math with it, then you can't make any predictions with it.  If you can't make any predictions with it, then it's completely useless.

What is the difference in Volume of a Full SCUBA tank and an Empty SCUBA tank?


Or for that Matter, a Propane tank?


If I take an Empty SCUBA tank, how much water will it displace versus how much water will it displace if it is full

A full scuba tank has compressed gases into liquid to hold more atmosphere, obviously.
An empty tank only has the equal atmospheric pressure with the outside.
Drop one into water and it'll be pushed down because it'll displace that water.
The other one will require you to push down to displace the same amount of water.

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 09:23:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 09:21:01 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 09:00:06 AM

Quote from: RocketSauce on October 17, 2017, 08:57:10 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:54:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:49:44 AM

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

I have two identical lead balls each on a scale which indicates that have identical weights.  However, one ball & scale is in a chamber that I use a vacuum pump to reduce the pressure in the chamber as low as achievable.

Test it out.
What you need to remember though is, a scale plate and mechanism inside a evacuation chamber can alter.
There's an experiment already on youtube if you want to look.

Quote from: MicroBeta on October 17, 2017, 08:44:09 AM

Now compare scale with lead ball outside the chamber to the scale with the lead ball inside the chamber.  It's testable and repeatable and it would instantly confirm or refute your theory.  I bet my paycheck they will indicate the same weight.

Mike

I bet they would show different. I know this for sure but they still don't prove anything due to the scales being manipulated by the evacuation of pressure.

Ok.  How about if each ball is in a chamber and each chamber is on a scale.  According to your unfounded theory, if we reduce the pressure in one chamber the scales must read different weights.  That won't happen.

Mike

The atmosphere alters the scales.... in his logic...

Also, if you do these tests underwater.... the scale may or may not be altered as well... it depends what you are weighing and how good your point is. And Submarines cannot stay underwater for longer than a couple of days. Because you run out of air...

My point is the scale is outside the chamber.  Therefore the scale will read the weight of the chamber and it's contents.  The scale is external so is unaffected.

Mike

But you are transferring atmosphere from the container to the external so you change nothing other than placing that atmosphere back onto the chamber.

To make it easier for you to understand.
Imagine you live underwater. Imagine that your water is your atmosphere.
You have a chamber and it's obviously full of your water as is everything around you.
You push water away from the chamber to allow the water inside to escape. (we must assume water can expand and contract like atmosphere).

Ok so you push the water away from the chamber and that water is now added into the surrounding water and is now adding more pressure to the external chamber, with the internal chamber being weaker in terms of withstanding the pressure due to no equilibrium.

why do you have to do this analogy?

as a reminder: water is almost incompressible, atmosphere is compressible.

This is why you get overlooked.
Take a massive break.

we would must assume a lot to make your idea work. even so far that we have to assume that reality is not a boundary.

in reality your idea does simply not work.
if it could you would be able to show us an experiment that show that it works.

and because you are not able to show that experiment proves that your idea does not work.

so, either you show us an experiment or you proven that you are wrong.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:44:03 AM

No need for mathematical formulas to get the understanding. It just requires the ability to want to.

Scepti, why is it so hard for you to understand why it's so hard for some of us to take denpressure seriously when you steadfastly refuse to quantify it?  If you can't do any math with it, then you can't make any predictions with it.  If you can't make any predictions with it, then it's completely useless.

You could do all kinds of maths with it. You can do all kinds of experiments with it.
The problem is it gets cast off as gravity and yet I have experiments that anyone can do, yet refuse to do to prove denpressure.

One of those experiments is using a centrifuge inside a evacuated chamber.
This alone proves my point but not one of you will attempt it......why?

we would must assume a lot to make your idea work. even so far that we have to assume that reality is not a boundary.

in reality your idea does simply not work.
if it could you would be able to show us an experiment that show that it works.

and because you are not able to show that experiment proves that your idea does not work.

so, either you show us an experiment or you proven that you are wrong.

Then don't worry about it.

...

You could do all kinds of maths with it. You can do all kinds of experiments with it.
The problem is it gets cast off as gravity and yet I have experiments that anyone can do, yet refuse to do to prove denpressure.

One of those experiments is using a centrifuge inside a evacuated chamber.
This alone proves my point but not one of you will attempt it......why?

ok, show us the documentation of that experiment.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 09:37:37 AM

...

You could do all kinds of maths with it. You can do all kinds of experiments with it.
The problem is it gets cast off as gravity and yet I have experiments that anyone can do, yet refuse to do to prove denpressure.

One of those experiments is using a centrifuge inside a evacuated chamber.
This alone proves my point but not one of you will attempt it......why?

ok, show us the documentation of that experiment.

How about you do it.

It's a key issue that defines denpressure and wipes out nonsense gravity.

The problem with your denpressure is that

pressure doesn't have a preferred direction – the same air pressure is pressing the floor, the walls and the ceiling.
Also, in a vaccum chamber on Earth objects still fall down in 9.8 m/s/s

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:36:48 AM

It's a key issue that defines denpressure and wipes out nonsense gravity.

The problem with your denpressure is that

Quote from: AFanOfTruth on October 15, 2017, 05:26:30 AM

pressure doesn't have a preferred direction – the same air pressure is pressing the floor, the walls and the ceiling.
Also, in a vaccum chamber on Earth objects still fall down in 9.8 m/s/s

That video is absolute nonsense.

Quote from: RocketSauce on October 17, 2017, 09:24:02 AM

What is the difference in Volume of a Full SCUBA tank and an Empty SCUBA tank?


Or for that Matter, a Propane tank?


If I take an Empty SCUBA tank, how much water will it displace versus how much water will it displace if it is full

A full scuba tank has compressed gases into liquid to hold more atmosphere, obviously.
An empty tank only has the equal atmospheric pressure with the outside.
Drop one into water and it'll be pushed down because it'll displace that water.
The other one will require you to push down to displace the same amount of water.

Although a scuba tank will sink in the water whether it is empty or full of air, it will sink faster when it is full.

Quote from: markjo on October 17, 2017, 09:34:31 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 08:44:03 AM

No need for mathematical formulas to get the understanding. It just requires the ability to want to.

Scepti, why is it so hard for you to understand why it's so hard for some of us to take denpressure seriously when you steadfastly refuse to quantify it?  If you can't do any math with it, then you can't make any predictions with it.  If you can't make any predictions with it, then it's completely useless.

You could do all kinds of maths with it. You can do all kinds of experiments with it.
The problem is it gets cast off as gravity and yet I have experiments that anyone can do, yet refuse to do to prove denpressure.

Actually, what you call denpressure is closer to what rest of the scientific community calls buoyancy (of which gravity is a component).

One of those experiments is using a centrifuge inside a evacuated chamber.
This alone proves my point but not one of you will attempt it......why?

The better question might be "since it's your theory, have you attempted it, and if not, why?"

Quote from: Canadabear on October 17, 2017, 09:39:38 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 17, 2017, 09:37:37 AM

...

You could do all kinds of maths with it. You can do all kinds of experiments with it.
The problem is it gets cast off as gravity and yet I have experiments that anyone can do, yet refuse to do to prove denpressure.

One of those experiments is using a centrifuge inside a evacuated chamber.
This alone proves my point but not one of you will attempt it......why?

ok, show us the documentation of that experiment.

How about you do it.

Most of us don't have access to all of those things. But if you've done it, documented it, and shown how it supports denpressure and not gravity, I'm certain we'd all love to see it. At a minimum you should be able to tell us how to perform it, and what we should expect to see. Because "using a centrifuge inside a evacuated chamber" does not an experiment explain.