Just wanted to know

Hi. I would like to let you know that I currently believe that the Earth is indeed round, not flat. I just came to this site to see if anybody could convince me that the Earth is flat. I would like to hear other's opinions. Thanks.

flat

round

settled.   

Hi. I would like to let you know that I currently believe that the Earth is indeed round, not flat. I just came to this site to see if anybody could convince me that the Earth is flat. I would like to hear other's opinions. Thanks.

I would much rather if you would convince me it is round. After all, I could give you reason after reason for why I was convinced, and it might as well be greek to you - another person. Let us understand why you think we are wrong, and we can address the points and you can come to your own conclusion once you've heard both sides?

Quote from: TheEarthIsAShape on August 14, 2017, 04:29:25 PM

Hi. I would like to let you know that I currently believe that the Earth is indeed round, not flat. I just came to this site to see if anybody could convince me that the Earth is flat. I would like to hear other's opinions. Thanks.

I would much rather if you would convince me it is round. After all, I could give you reason after reason for why I was convinced, and it might as well be greek to you - another person. Let us understand why you think we are wrong, and we can address the points and you can come to your own conclusion once you've heard both sides?

There are literally TENS of THOUSANDS of pictures of our spherical planet.

No, they are NOT  all "fake" or "CGI". That theory is simply preposterous.

Hi. I would like to let you know that I currently believe that the Earth is indeed round, not flat. I just came to this site to see if anybody could convince me that the Earth is flat. I would like to hear other's opinions. Thanks.

welcome to Plato’s cave, ( allegory of the cave) now showing the greatest show on earth “ The Earth Is Flat”  where reality is lost, and the audience is affected by the Dunning-Kruger effect. The thing that worries me the most, it seems that it is catching, you can stay for a while, just don’t take a seat. Make sure that you can walk out into the light of reality out of the cave, where the earth is a globe.

Quote from: TheEarthIsAShape on August 14, 2017, 04:29:25 PM

Hi. I would like to let you know that I currently believe that the Earth is indeed round, not flat. I just came to this site to see if anybody could convince me that the Earth is flat. I would like to hear other's opinions. Thanks.

I would much rather if you would convince me it is round. After all, I could give you reason after reason for why I was convinced, and it might as well be greek to you - another person. Let us understand why you think we are wrong, and we can address the points and you can come to your own conclusion once you've heard both sides?

Well firstly there is many photographs and videos of the Earth seen from space, and that has been confirmed. For these to be fake, I'm pretty sure the moon landing would of had to been faked, which would be very difficult. Also, planets as we see them are circles, though we cannot see them as spheres, if they were flat, then it's very unlikely that for example every time you looked at the moon or sun it would be at just the right angle to be looked upon as spherical, though it is actually flat. Unless, of course gravity didn't exist and the planets never rotated. But gravity does exist, it has been proven many times. I can't really argue about gravity with you though because I don't know much about it. But you could ask someone else or look at youtube videos. Another argument as for the photographs and videos of space and planet Earth, lots of people say they are faked by NASA and other space agencies and also the government. I believe this isn't true as it would be very hard to keep up this lie for really decades now. Maybe not a very long time but some scientists or former government workers probably would have defected by now to tell the truth. As far as my understanding is, this hasn't happened yet. So, either they're really loyal or, the Earth is round and the governments were telling the truth. Another thing is that people apparently believe in supernatural beings that have some sort of relevance to the whole flat Earth conspiracy. I personally think it is very childish and silly to believe that supernatural creatures and governments have faked the moon landing, faked the shape of the Earth, and done all of this without ever being proven wrong. (Because, according to most people, the Earth IS round and that theory is the one being taught in schools, not flat Earth. Basically, it's believed to be common knowledge, and the only people who think otherwise is people like yourself.)

Now that is most of my argument, but like I said in my original comment I would like to hear what you think. Thanks.

They can be misinterpreted and not fake. Space is curved - the earth is flat. The earth could appear curved at great distances due to this spatial curvature.

They can be misinterpreted and not fake. Space is curved - the earth is flat. The earth could appear curved at great distances due to this spatial curvature.

The curvature of space has a reason, and that reason is the same that gives Earth its roundness, it's called gravity.

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity

Simplified version:

https://www.google.com.mx/amp/s/amp.space.com/17661-theory-general-relativity.html

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 11:40:40 AM

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

General Relativity

Ah, so gravity works by not existing. And it does so by no known mechanism. Got it.

So, in your view, an object in free-fall would be in an inertial frame of reference, correct?

Ah, so gravity works by not existing. And it does so by no known mechanism. Got it.

While i do acknowledge thatthere are many things about gravity we do not understand, einstein's theory of general relativity is the current accepted model of gravity in physics.

However, if you dont accept it, there is another gravity model made by isaac newton:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation

So, in your view, an object in free-fall would be in an inertial frame of reference, correct?

(correct me if wrong) In general relativity, the frame of a free falling observer is locally inertial.

Yes, and so an object in free fall, like a round earth satellite is then in an inertial frame of reference?

This also implies that it is either still or not accelerating and traveling a constant speed in a constant direction (as the only notable force upon it in this thought experiment is gravity, and it is not a force at all but a pseudo-force.)

As it is not still (from our FoR), we know it is traveling a constant speed in a straight line through curved space. Would you not agree?

Yes, and so an object in free fall, like a round earth satellite is then in an inertial frame of reference?

This also implies that it is either still or not accelerating and traveling a constant speed in a constant direction (as the only notable force upon it in this thought experiment is gravity, and it is not a force at all but a pseudo-force.)

As it is not still (from our FoR), we know it is traveling a constant speed in a straight line through curved space. Would you not agree?

So, the Earth is flat from the non-inertial frame of reference on Earth but curved in a sphere from a frame of reference independent of the Earth?
I would think that Earth would therefore curve in accordance with space-time, being a sphere. So, two stakes separated by 1 degree latitude would be 1 degree "tilted" relative to the other assuming they are perpendicular with the ground. That is what I would assume by what you are saying.

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

Magic? Well, I suppose that concepts beyond you knowledge may look like magic/miracles, but please, try to stay on the logical track in this topic

Matter/Objects with enough density affects space in such way that it curves around said matter/object, thus, generating gravity.

round

Some questions on the pyramid

How would that pyramid work ?
Is the base (bottom of the pyramid)  3-sided or 4-sided ?
What  does it look like from the other side ?
Do the oceans rest on a  bed of ice ?

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 11:40:40 AM

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

Magic? Well, I suppose that concepts beyond you knowledge may look like magic/miracles, but please, try to stay on the logical track in this topic

Matter/Objects with enough density affects space in such way that it curves around said matter/object, thus, generating gravity.

And by what mechanism do you propose it affects space? What is the medium  of this message, how does it travel backwards in time to create a pull, and how does empty space have properties that allow this to happen?

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 12:23:32 PM

Yes, and so an object in free fall, like a round earth satellite is then in an inertial frame of reference?

This also implies that it is either still or not accelerating and traveling a constant speed in a constant direction (as the only notable force upon it in this thought experiment is gravity, and it is not a force at all but a pseudo-force.)

As it is not still (from our FoR), we know it is traveling a constant speed in a straight line through curved space. Would you not agree?

So, the Earth is flat from the non-inertial frame of reference on Earth but curved in a sphere from a frame of reference independent of the Earth?
I would think that Earth would therefore curve in accordance with space-time, being a sphere. So, two stakes separated by 1 degree latitude would be 1 degree "tilted" relative to the other assuming they are perpendicular with the ground. That is what I would assume by what you are saying.

The earth is flat given we choose our FoR  to be a reasonable one - namely the one we are in.

Quote from: simba on August 15, 2017, 12:44:03 PM

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 11:40:40 AM

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

Magic? Well, I suppose that concepts beyond you knowledge may look like magic/miracles, but please, try to stay on the logical track in this topic

Matter/Objects with enough density affects space in such way that it curves around said matter/object, thus, generating gravity.

And by what mechanism do you propose it affects space? What is the medium  of this message, how does it travel backwards in time to create a pull, and how does empty space have properties that allow this to happen?

That's a question that is still on the table waiting to be answered; but keep in mind that not being able to answer it does not makes gravity less belieavable nor inexistent (it have always be there, since the begining). Say, 200 years back, you would claim electricity is magic, but now we know how it works and how to generate it, wich you accept it as it is be it becausse you agree on it or that you haven't bothered with it.

Bottom line, time will give us the answer

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 12:56:37 PM

Quote from: simba on August 15, 2017, 12:44:03 PM

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 11:40:40 AM

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

Magic? Well, I suppose that concepts beyond you knowledge may look like magic/miracles, but please, try to stay on the logical track in this topic

Matter/Objects with enough density affects space in such way that it curves around said matter/object, thus, generating gravity.

And by what mechanism do you propose it affects space? What is the medium  of this message, how does it travel backwards in time to create a pull, and how does empty space have properties that allow this to happen?

That's a question that is still on the table waiting to be answered; but keep in mind that not being able to answer it does not makes gravity less belieavable nor inexistent (it have always be there, since the begining). Say, 200 years back, you would claim electricity is magic, but now we know how it works and how to generate it, wich you accept it as it is be it becausse you agree on it or that you haven't bothered with it.

Bottom line, time will give us the answer

Without an actual mechanism supporting your theory, it is just colourful poetry surrounding mathematics that can fit either model.

I would say, 200 years ago, that any claims to have knowledge over a completely unknown entity or phenomena might as well be religion; for example, as much as it is when the a particularly religious greek man might say the sun moves due to the unknown force of the god Helios.  You might have said "we know exactly how the sun works, and its perfectly explained. Of course we don't know what Helios ate for breakfast to give him the energy to ride his chariot compared to Phaeton, but time will give us the answer."

Its a religious point of view parading as knowledge of what is 'proven' and 'true.'

Yes, and so an object in free fall, like a round earth satellite is then in an inertial frame of reference?

This also implies that it is either still or not accelerating and traveling a constant speed in a constant direction (as the only notable force upon it in this thought experiment is gravity, and it is not a force at all but a pseudo-force.)

As it is not still (from our FoR), we know it is traveling a constant speed in a straight line through curved space. Would you not agree?

Surely it is travelling at constant speed + straight line through space-time, rather than space?

Quote from: HeoSkeptic on August 15, 2017, 12:39:25 PM

So, the Earth is flat from the non-inertial frame of reference on Earth but curved in a sphere from a frame of reference independent of the Earth?
I would think that Earth would therefore curve in accordance with space-time, being a sphere. So, two stakes separated by 1 degree latitude would be 1 degree "tilted" relative to the other assuming they are perpendicular with the ground. That is what I would assume by what you are saying.

The earth is flat given we choose our FoR  to be a reasonable one - namely the one we are in.

What defines 'flat' in this context?

Quote from: simba on August 15, 2017, 01:20:40 PM

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 12:56:37 PM

Quote from: simba on August 15, 2017, 12:44:03 PM

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 11:40:40 AM

So tell me, how does this magic 'gravity' of yours work?

Magic? Well, I suppose that concepts beyond you knowledge may look like magic/miracles, but please, try to stay on the logical track in this topic

Matter/Objects with enough density affects space in such way that it curves around said matter/object, thus, generating gravity.

And by what mechanism do you propose it affects space? What is the medium  of this message, how does it travel backwards in time to create a pull, and how does empty space have properties that allow this to happen?

That's a question that is still on the table waiting to be answered; but keep in mind that not being able to answer it does not makes gravity less belieavable nor inexistent (it have always be there, since the begining). Say, 200 years back, you would claim electricity is magic, but now we know how it works and how to generate it, wich you accept it as it is be it becausse you agree on it or that you haven't bothered with it.

Bottom line, time will give us the answer

Without an actual mechanism supporting your theory, it is just colourful poetry surrounding mathematics that can fit either model.

I would say, 200 years ago, that any claims to have knowledge over a completely unknown entity or phenomena might as well be religion; for example, as much as it is when the a particularly religious greek man might say the sun moves due to the unknown force of the god Helios.  You might have said "we know exactly how the sun works, and its perfectly explained. Of course we don't know what Helios ate for breakfast to give him the energy to ride his chariot compared to Phaeton, but time will give us the answer."

Its a religious point of view parading as knowledge of what is 'proven' and 'true.'

Sorry, but is very egoistical of you to disregard the theory just because we have yet to know how matter and space interact to produce gravity. Many things predicted by the theory have been verified, this verifications were made posible because scientists assumed the concept of gravity presented on the theory. Just because we don't know how matter and space interact, does not make gravity impossible.

Also, you yourself mentioned that space is curved, how, without gravity then, is space being curved?

Yes, and so an object in free fall, like a round earth satellite is then in an inertial frame of reference?

This also implies that it is either still or not accelerating and traveling a constant speed in a constant direction (as the only notable force upon it in this thought experiment is gravity, and it is not a force at all but a pseudo-force.)

As it is not still (from our FoR), we know it is traveling a constant speed in a straight line through curved space. Would you not agree?

Firstly, sorry for my ignorance but, what does "FoR" mean??

Second, if i understood correctly, then i agree, for a satellite to not crash down back to earth, it has to move forward fast enough that it compensates for the fall downwards.

Firstly, sorry for my ignorance but, what does "FoR" mean??

FoR = Frame of Reference

Also, to the thread, the earth is clearly a torus.

The earth is flat given we choose our FoR  to be a reasonable one - namely the one we are in.

Based on what you said, the one we are in isn't flat. Like I said, the Earth curves with space-time, so if you place two sticks 69 miles apart, they will form a one degree angle at a center point, basically "tilting" 1 degree. This must mean a curving Earth from our non-inertial frame of reference here on Earth.

Quote from: The Earth is a Pyramid on August 15, 2017, 04:16:49 PM

Firstly, sorry for my ignorance but, what does "FoR" mean??

FoR = Frame of Reference

Also, to the thread, the earth is clearly a torus.

Thanks!

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 12:23:32 PM

Yes, and so an object in free fall, like a round earth satellite is then in an inertial frame of reference?

This also implies that it is either still or not accelerating and traveling a constant speed in a constant direction (as the only notable force upon it in this thought experiment is gravity, and it is not a force at all but a pseudo-force.)

As it is not still (from our FoR), we know it is traveling a constant speed in a straight line through curved space. Would you not agree?

Surely it is travelling at constant speed + straight line through space-time, rather than space?

Yes, but this is no different from Euclidean space, in which things also travel a straight line through space-time. Also, it applies to light and high speed objects, neither of which we are discussing as we are talking about General Relativity - not special. The difference in time dilation is too minor to be of noticeable affect here.

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 12:56:37 PM

Quote from: HeoSkeptic on August 15, 2017, 12:39:25 PM

So, the Earth is flat from the non-inertial frame of reference on Earth but curved in a sphere from a frame of reference independent of the Earth?
I would think that Earth would therefore curve in accordance with space-time, being a sphere. So, two stakes separated by 1 degree latitude would be 1 degree "tilted" relative to the other assuming they are perpendicular with the ground. That is what I would assume by what you are saying.

The earth is flat given we choose our FoR  to be a reasonable one - namely the one we are in.

What defines 'flat' in this context?

Flat is defined as the projection of 'straight' onto a larger space.  The only definition of straight that makes sense is the one previously defined - the path an object travels when not under the influence of a force.

Quote from: John Davis on August 15, 2017, 12:56:37 PM

The earth is flat given we choose our FoR  to be a reasonable one - namely the one we are in.

Based on what you said, the one we are in isn't flat. Like I said, the Earth curves with space-time, so if you place two sticks 69 miles apart, they will form a one degree angle at a center point, basically "tilting" 1 degree. This must mean a curving Earth from our non-inertial frame of reference here on Earth.

No, they are parallel and are tilting away from each other at 1 degree. This is part of the reason why the term non-euclidean is used.

I'm with the guy that says the earth is a pyramid.

No, they are parallel and are tilting away from each other at 1 degree. This is part of the reason why the term non-euclidean is used.

Interesting way to put it. I must ask, are you jumping from FoR's here on the Earth with explaining the perpendicular lines tilting 1 degree in respect to each other while being simultaneously parallel (meeting at the center of mass on a spherical Earth)?
Because either I am just being ignorant of non-euclidean geometry or there is something you are thinking that I am not following in understanding.