Einstein and Flat Earth theory

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EGOOT247

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2007, 07:45:02 PM »
Our Textbook talks of the Pepper moth theory, which was fraudulent.
(Just adding this as another example for textbook mistakes.)

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GeoGuy

Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2007, 08:25:40 PM »
The peppered Moth theory hasn't been disproved at all actually. Unless there has been some very recent evidence found which I am unaware of.

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EGOOT247

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2007, 08:37:11 PM »
The Pepper Moth Theory states that during the industrial revolution, smoke and junk and pollutants killed the light lichens growing on the beach trees of England and soot accumulated on the bark. The trees darkened. At the time right before it, there were more light moths than dark because the dark moths stood out against the light bark and were more easily spotted to be eaten. As the bark grew darker, the light moths stood out against the bark, and the dark camoflauged better. Thus, there were more dark than light. As environmental efforts cleaned up the earth (I'm being vague here), the beach trees became light again, and the light:dark ratio again shifted. There were more lights than darks.
Correct?

....

This would all be well and good. It would show natural selection wonderfully.
EXCEPT we missed something ---
Pepper moths rest on the backs of tree leaves. Not bark. the color of the bark makes no difference to the moths, who rest on tree leaves.
The pictures of the Pepper moths on bark were taken by pinning/gluing the Dead moths to the bark. They did not rest there. They rest on leaves.
The video came from using Laboratory moths who were so sluggish that they had to be warmed up on a car radiator. ( I read this somewhere.)
The birds learned of the free meal and came to chow.

Actually, this leaves another small hole. How do birds find their prey? They sure don't do it on eyesite alone. Don't they use UV light or something? I don't quite remember... I could look it up if you wish.

The pepper moth theory is a fraud.
This does not mean that there is no natural selection-- It simply means that the pepper moth theory is inaccurate.
Perhaps if they had done this with a bark-dwelling animal....

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2007, 08:50:54 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth#Evolution

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There are a number of criticisms of the Kettlewell study, most are simply restatements from Jonathan Well's book Icons of Evolution. As a consequence, very few of these criticisms show any merit and are easily refuted[3].

Kettlewell's study in the 1950s, which is the basis of the textbook account, was based on three experiments in which he released similar numbers of light and dark-coloured moths in Dorset (rural) and Birmingham (industrial, heavily polluted at that time) and then estimated how many of each type were taken by predators (birds). The three experiments used different methods of estimating how many moths fell victim to predators.

Later studies which sampled the percentages of light- and dark-coloured peppered moths living in unpolluted rural areas and in polluted industrial areas showed several measurements that seem to argue against the conventional story, for example:

    * In rural Wales, there was an unexpectedly high proportion of dark-coloured moths.
          o However, the amount of moths is irrelevant, rather the predation and change in the population.
    * In polluted south Wales, dark-coloured forms were only 20% of the total population of peppered moths.
          o However, the amount of moths is irrelevant, rather the predation and change in the population.
    * In rural East Anglia, dark-coloured forms were 80% of the total population of peppered moths.
          o However, the amount of moths is irrelevant, rather the predation and change in the population.
    * A study of 165 separate sites in Britain found that there was a correlation between melanism and the concentration of sulfur dioxide north of latitude 52°N, but the correlation south of that latitude was less clear.
          o The Steward (1977) study found a strong correlation with melanism throughout Britain. However, south of the 52°N, it was found to be only the second most correlated factor after the east-west location. It was still a significant factor[4].

After pollution control legislation was implemented in the UK:

    * The proportion of dark forms decreased north of London (as expected), but surprisingly increased to the south.
    * Kettlewell and others found that light-coloured forms became more common before lichens re-appeared on trees in previously polluted areas. This undermines the idea that the lichens were the sole factor in causing light colored moths to be more common.
          o The idea that visual predation is the only correlated factor Kettlewell introduced is a lie. The Kettlewell study accounted for the reasons the relative proportions of light and dark moths in East Anglia and northern Wales[5].

There have also been criticisms of the procedure Kettlewell used in his experiments. In particular:

    * In normal circumstances, peppered moths rest much more often on the undersides of small, more or less horizontal branches than tree trunks.
          o The moths resting on branches are also subject to predation.
    * Kettlewell released his moths in the morning to avoid distorting their behaviour by using artificial light. But releasing the moths in the morning confused the moths so that they landed on the first moderately suitable objects they saw, which were tree-trunks. The moths would therefore have been much more exposed to predation than usual, irrespective of their coloration.
          o This would have been true for both groups of moths, as this procedure was used in both. Since the Kettlewell's study there have been a number of studies on peppered moths, many of these didn't rely on released moths.

Most criticisms are based on Kettlewell's study. Many additional studies have been performed on the subject and the they all support the traditional story. Where the trees are darkened the dark colored moths tend to increase in frequency, where the trees are lighter the light colored moths increase in frequency.

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GeoGuy

Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2007, 08:52:08 PM »
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Pepper moths rest on the backs of tree leaves.  


-Of course they do. Some of the time. However, peppered moths rest most often on tree trunks and branches. As shown in this graph

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The pictures of the Pepper moths on bark were taken by pinning/gluing the Dead moths to the bark. They did not rest there. They rest on leaves.

-You're right, many textbook photographs of peppered moths were staged, as most textbook photos of insects are. the fact is entirely irrelevant, however, as "the point of such photos is not to prove the truth of the peppered moth story, it is to illustrate the relative crypsis of moth morphs on different backgrounds"

Here is the talk origins article explaining the problems with Well's theory.

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EGOOT247

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2007, 09:00:06 PM »
...Wow...
Perhaps I am wrong.


... It is at this point that I feel brainwashed. :S I don't know what to believe anymore...

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2007, 09:00:39 PM »
Religious people have a lot of lies they like to spread trying to discredit particular parts scientific theories that discredit religion.

Another great one is this one:

"If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?"

And then you answer "yes" and it turns out you aborted Beethoven.  What a great way of demonstrating the evil of abortion.  Except, unsurprisingly, like the peppered moth story - it's actually another lie from religion.

Beethoven was actually the oldest of the children that survived infancy, and had 3 siblings - none of which were blind, deaf or mentally retarded and there no evidence that Beethoven's Mum had syphilis.

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EGOOT247

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2007, 09:10:10 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Religious people have a lot of lies they like to spread trying to discredit particular parts scientific theories that discredit religion.

Another great one is this one:

"If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?"

And then you answer "yes" and it turns out you aborted Beethoven.  What a great way of demonstrating the evil of abortion.  Except, unsurprisingly, like the peppered moth story - it's actually another lie from religion.

Beethoven was actually the oldest of the children that survived infancy, and had 3 siblings - none of which were blind, deaf or mentally retarded and there no evidence that Beethoven's Mum had syphilis.


Actually, as a catholic we're supposed to say "no." :S Where did you get the "yes" from???
We are not the author of life. God is.

Gosh, I talk about religion alot, don't I?

Actually, I believe in evolution. There is nothing in doctrine that says we can't. Though there is a difference between the Theory and evolution itself.
Evolution, in my own terms, is something evolving from a simpler form to something more complex. Correct?
Evolutionism states that we all came from Primordial soup. While I do not say that this is not possible, we could have.... A "higher being" could have influenced it. And I believe God did.
In six days? No. This is just myth--Not to be taken literally, but a story going into the depths of marriage.
We could have evolved, but I believe GOd guided it.

Evolution does NOT discredit any catholic doctrine. Please tell, what is going through your mind when you say it is? Your assumption has me quite mystified.

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2007, 09:16:49 PM »
Catholic belief certainly has been modified to accept the overwhelming evidence of science in some parts.

Evolution does not discredit Catholicism and I'd like you to show me where I said that.  Obviously when I talk about religion - I am generalising.  Not all religions are the same and I'm sure there are exceptions.  The anti-abortion story was just an example of a lie that religious people like to spread - just as the pepper moth story is another such lie.  Not all religious people tell lies and many don't know that what they're saying is lies.

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EGOOT247

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2007, 09:23:20 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Religious people have a lot of lies they like to spread trying to discredit particular parts scientific theories that discredit religion.
....
[another post]Obviously when I talk about religion - I am generalising.  


Your generalization led me to believe you felt this way about Catholicism. I guess I jumped to conclusions. Religions are "generally" different, hence they're "different Religions."

Quote
Catholic belief certainly has been modified to accept the overwhelming evidence of science in some parts.


Really? Well... That's probably a good thing, then.  :)

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phaseshifter

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2007, 09:34:39 PM »
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Catholic belief certainly has been modified to accept the overwhelming evidence of science in some parts


I don't think so.

I think rather the interpretation has been modified, but the beleif itself remained unchanged.

Quote
You talk of arcane and esoteric things as if they are common knowledge


Not that I often agree with Erasmus, but there was nothing arcane or esoteric in his statments.

You'll have to point them out.
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

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Areopagite

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2007, 06:30:13 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
I'd like to inquire as to how you define a straight line.

Black is the night in the mountains.

Re: Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2007, 07:27:59 AM »
That is a bad example.  The being a planet or not a planet agument is about the definition of what it means to be a planet.  This is not an argument about what it means for the earth to be flat or round.  It is one way or the other.
Quote from: "MROC"
When I was in grade school I was taught that our solar system had 9 planets. This wasn't questionable. It was fact. Now schools are saying they were wong. You cannot know what you read in a text book. You can choose to beleive it if you'd like, but don't claim to know. You could read a book about sky diving, but you wouldn't know what it was like unless you did it yourself.

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2007, 08:19:28 AM »
That quote from MROC is excellent, and so true too.  I don't know what context is was said in, but that's the value I see in this forum.

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cmdshft

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2007, 09:46:29 AM »
It was a fact. Pluto, until VERY RECENTLY, was considered the 9th planet. Recent changes to the specifications which define "planet" have caused cosmologists to reduce Pluto's planetary status. That is also a fact. Neither was wrong at any point.

Everything else in that quote does hold true. And it applies to both FE and RE models.

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BOGWarrior89

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2007, 01:24:57 PM »
Quote from: "Hara Taiki"
It was a fact. Pluto, until VERY RECENTLY, was considered the 9th planet. Recent changes to the specifications which define "planet" have caused cosmologists to reduce Pluto's planetary status. That is also a fact. Neither was wrong at any point.

Everything else in that quote does hold true. And it applies to both FE and RE models.


Is this proof that something can have property X, and yet not have property X?

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cmdshft

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2007, 08:36:17 PM »

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2007, 09:35:24 PM »
Do words have intrinsic meaning?  Is it the definition of "planet" that has changed, or our interpretation of what the word means?

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cmdshft

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2007, 09:40:37 PM »
It was never really defined, according to the Wiki.

Quote from: "Wikipedia"
On August 24, 2006 the IAU defined the term "planet" for the first time. This definition excluded Pluto, which was then reclassified under the new category of dwarf planet along with Eris and Ceres.[1] Pluto is also classified as the prototype of a family of trans-Neptunian objects.[2][3] After the reclassification, Pluto was added to the list of minor planets and given the number 134340.[4][5]


Up until then, it seemed that the general "standard" would have been anything larger than Pluto. But now that there is a real, standard definition, it has affected Pluto's status as a planet, and reduced it to dwarf-planet, and it's official "name" changed to 134340.

So now we officially only have 8 planets.

Also note that school textbooks will most likely not reflect this within this year, possibly even a few years.

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2007, 09:47:40 PM »
What do you call the statement next to "Planet" in my dictionary if you don't call it a definition?

Clearly the wikipedia article is talking about the fact that IAU have never defined the term "planet," not that the term has never been defined at all.

Idiot.

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r0bbert

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2007, 03:23:05 AM »
Quote from: "EGOOT247"
The Pepper Moth Theory states that during the industrial revolution, smoke and junk and pollutants killed the light lichens growing on the beach trees of England and soot accumulated on the bark. The trees darkened. At the time right before it, there were more light moths than dark because the dark moths stood out against the light bark and were more easily spotted to be eaten. As the bark grew darker, the light moths stood out against the bark, and the dark camoflauged better. Thus, there were more dark than light. As environmental efforts cleaned up the earth (I'm being vague here), the beach trees became light again, and the light:dark ratio again shifted. There were more lights than darks.
Correct?

....

This would all be well and good. It would show natural selection wonderfully.
EXCEPT we missed something ---
Pepper moths rest on the backs of tree leaves. Not bark. the color of the bark makes no difference to the moths, who rest on tree leaves.
The pictures of the Pepper moths on bark were taken by pinning/gluing the Dead moths to the bark. They did not rest there. They rest on leaves.
The video came from using Laboratory moths who were so sluggish that they had to be warmed up on a car radiator. ( I read this somewhere.)
The birds learned of the free meal and came to chow.

Actually, this leaves another small hole. How do birds find their prey? They sure don't do it on eyesite alone. Don't they use UV light or something? I don't quite remember... I could look it up if you wish.

The pepper moth theory is a fraud.
This does not mean that there is no natural selection-- It simply means that the pepper moth theory is inaccurate.
Perhaps if they had done this with a bark-dwelling animal....

i take it you have never seen a peppered moth? i live in england and i see them regularly they do sit on bark . do birds use uv light i assume you are actully stupid. birds find thier prey with exceptionally good eysight and superb hearing and a quite developed sense of smell .

natural selction is obvious it can be seen all over especially in animals  when a feamle animal is trying to find a mate the males fight to show who is the strongest and who posesses the best genes  yo pass on to the future generation

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cmdshft

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2007, 09:17:06 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
What do you call the statement next to "Planet" in my dictionary if you don't call it a definition?

Clearly the wikipedia article is talking about the fact that IAU have never defined the term "planet," not that the term has never been defined at all.

Idiot.


Why do you have to be a prick about every little thing?

You always make a goddam argument out of everything. Just shut up, take the information I gave you. I'm not the one writing it. You want to play semantics, go to Wiki.

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2007, 04:36:14 PM »
Wiki isn't the person that claimed that "planet" has never really be defined.

It was you.  I call you on the mistakes you make, because you make so many and yet are so arrogant and always act like you know what you're talking about and that your view is right and all the opposing views are wrong.  Perhaps you should look at the way you post and think about how people will react to the way you say things if you don't like people attacking you.

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BOGWarrior89

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2007, 04:44:13 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Wiki isn't the person that claimed that "planet" has never really be defined.

It was you.  I call you on the mistakes you make, because you make so many and yet are so arrogant and always act like you know what you're talking about and that your view is right and all the opposing views are wrong.  Perhaps you should look at the way you post and think about how people will react to the way you say things if you don't like people attacking you.


Wikipedia can't really be trusted:

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Rick_James

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2007, 05:01:06 PM »
There's a whole thread about this somewhere......

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beast

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2007, 05:13:40 PM »
Actually I tend to think it largely can be trusted, especially since it sources all its facts and because people usually correct vandalism quickly.  I wonder how long it takes for that comment you added to be corrected...

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6strings

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2007, 06:13:54 PM »
Quote from: "Wikipedia"
[Earth] is the largest planet in the world.

Well, it's actually kind of right; I mean, if we're restricting the choice of planets to "the world", then Earth is the largest planet.  Granted, it's also the smallest.  And the bluest.  And the yellowest.  And the most kitten-filled...

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Erasmus

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2007, 06:15:51 PM »
Quote from: "6strings"
And the most kitten-filled...


We're so lucky.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2007, 07:59:17 PM »
Yes..

*Nibbles on kitten*
Nibbles on kitten*

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BOGWarrior89

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Einstein and Flat Earth theory
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2007, 10:04:09 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Actually I tend to think it largely can be trusted, especially since it sources all its facts and because people usually correct vandalism quickly.  I wonder how long it takes for that comment you added to be corrected...

Hey, I didn't do that.  I found that photo on Facebook.