RE Arguments Summarized

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JRoweSkeptic

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RE Arguments Summarized
« on: July 25, 2017, 10:50:56 AM »
As round earthers typically just make the same few arguments endlessly, I'm making this post and thread as a reference point. There are only a handful of topics that get used most of the time.
My hope is that FE scientists developing their models can use this as a basic test, and that RE newbies will pause before repeating one of these tired old arguments yet again.
This is just anti-FE arguments, of course there are other questions like "What makes the Sun shine?" but those do not try to find a contradiction. It's also nothing directed at specific models, just the basic newbie questions asked about FET.
Let me know if I miss anything. Please don't debate, I'm posting this in the probably vain hope that an actual discussion can be had on this site if it's focused on anti-FET remarks. I want a full list of RE objections.

Many of these are basically the same question repeated to focus on a different aspect, but for the sake of clarity I acted as though they're all independent.

The Sun and Moon
Why does 24 hour sunlight exist at the poles?
Why does the Sun appear to travel in a straight line across the sky rather than curve?
Why does the Sun set bottom-up?
Why does the Sun appear to shine on the underside of clouds?
What causes the lengths of days to change?
What causes time zones?
What causes the moon's phases?
What causes solar eclipses?
What causes lunar eclipses?
How are eclipses predictable?
What causes libration?
How do the Sun and moon appear the same size all day?
Why does the Sun rise due East on the equinox for all observers?

General Space
Where do meteors come from?
If the Sun, moon and planets seem round, why isn't the Earth?
What are transits of the Sun?
How do you explain photos from space?
How do you explain the ISS?
How do you explain satellites and GPS?
What causes stars to rotate around two celestial poles?
How is there a constant angular distance between stars?

Earth
How do supposed distances line up with FET?
Why do flight times correspond to RET?
Why do flight paths match up with great circle paths on a globe?
Why do ships seem to sink on the horizon?
What causes the Earth's magnetic field and inclination?
What causes earthquake waves?
What causes geothermal energy?
What causes the coriolis effect?
What causes hurricanes?
Why do hurricanes not cross the equator?
How do you explain this photo of curvature?
How do you explain high, low, spring, neap tides?
Why can we see further at higher altitudes?
Why can we not see on endlessly?
Why do we stay on the Earth's surface?
How is circumnavigation possible?
How do equatorially aligned telescopes function with just one motor?
Why do radio signals fade in accordance with curvature?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 04:25:32 PM by JRoweSkeptic »
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 11:31:35 AM »

Let me know if I miss anything.

How do stars all maintain a constant angular distance from each other? (can be combined with the bit about rotating around two poles, i.e. how do they rotate around two poles whilst maintaining a constant distance from each other?)
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Sentinel

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2017, 11:32:32 AM »
If only FE scientists even could get past the very first question...  :-\
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2017, 11:34:44 AM »
Also: How do the Sun/Moon maintain a constant size as they travel across the sky?

Why does the Sun rise due East for every observer on the Equinox?
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2017, 01:47:23 PM »
If only FE scientists even could get past the very first question...  :-\
The first one's pretty trivial. Most of them are really, it's REers that struggle to read the answers.
Though I do wish more models went into detail explaining what causes the magnetic field.

How do stars all maintain a constant angular distance from each other? (can be combined with the bit about rotating around two poles, i.e. how do they rotate around two poles whilst maintaining a constant distance from each other?)

Also: How do the Sun/Moon maintain a constant size as they travel across the sky?

Why does the Sun rise due East for every observer on the Equinox?
Will be added.
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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 04:03:02 PM »
Please let me know if there's any argument I have not included here, I want this to be an exhaustive list of questions REers ask. (Excluding those like "Why does the Sun shine?" "What causes the aurora?" which don't expose contradictions, and "Explain denpressure," which debates an answer).
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 03:24:07 AM »
As round earthers typically just make the same few arguments endlessly..

That's typically because the facts don't change. An explanation for sunrise/sunset is the same today as it will be in a thousand years time.

We aren't dealing with mysteries here, ya know?

Secondly, the fact that the arguments don't change is a point for RE. If the explanation for a sunrise/sunset changes every day like it does for a FE depending on which crackpot you ask, that in and of itself would make the position for a RE rather tenuous, wouldn't it?

Also, "FE scientists"... ROFLOL

If only FE scientists even could get past the very first question...  :-\
The first one's pretty trivial. Most of them are really, it's REers that struggle to read the answers.

Hmmmm, no. In my experience on this site, every FE "model" (sic) I've ever seen proposed has trouble even explaining one aspect of reality, let alone two at the same time. Once the questions keep piling up, so do the contradictions. There is of course a very good reason why no FE "model" (sic) can ever seem to explain multiple natural phenomena simultaneously without completely breaking reality: that's because the earth is a oblate spheroid.  Always has been, always will be. You just cannot project a sphere onto something flat without something breaking, hence all of the problems faced by FE mentally-ill retards advocates. This is why people like you need to invent all sorts of bullshit (*cough* aether *cough*) in an attempt to explain away things that are trivially easy to explain with a globe. You've literally had to rewrite just about every law of physics just to make your trash "model" (sic) fit.

Secondly, no RE has trouble reading any of the (rare) responses from FE'ers when they actually decide to answer a question; it's just that the response is so easily and demonstrably wrong, that the response (or what passes for it) isn't accepted. Huge difference between that and what you're insinuating, so nice strawman there, champ.

Sorry but not sorry to break it to you JR, but the shape of the earth has already been determined. I know it may not be exciting for people like yourself who feel the need to dream up nonsense in attempt to feel special and seem to think that anything said on this forum has some bearing on the real world, but it doesn't. You have to be seriously intellectually dishonest (and a host of other things) to call into question the shape of the earth.

Here's my advice to you and the other FE tards that none of you asked for: Grow the fuck up and find something actually productive to do with your time (if you can).

Feel free to add any of the above to the list of typically used RE arguments because I feel it does crop up from time to time.

Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 03:33:38 AM »
FE arguments summarised:-

It looks flat.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 04:56:36 AM »
Quote
That's typically because the facts don't change. An explanation for sunrise/sunset is the same today as it will be in a thousand years time.

We aren't dealing with mysteries here, ya know?

Secondly, the fact that the arguments don't change is a point for RE. If the explanation for a sunrise/sunset changes every day like it does for a FE depending on which crackpot you ask, that in and of itself would make the position for a RE rather tenuous, wouldn't it?
What are you talking about? I pretty obviously stated I'm making this thread as a reference, not as an attack on RET.

FE arguments summarised:-

It looks flat.
False. maybe if you REers would stop spamming the same few arguments hundreds of times you'd see the FE threads that get ignored and die around for a bit longer.
I mean for fuck's sake there are multiple anti-RE arguments on the first pages of FEG and FED right now anyway. You're either lying or making an argument based on totally ignoring the site and you just don't even care do you?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:10:17 AM by JRoweSkeptic »
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 07:57:19 AM »
I'll be honest, I don't really care. I find this entertaining and nothing else. The shape of the planet is established and evidenced. Anyone can find out for themselves. Even if the illuminati announce tomorrow the earth is flat, how is your life going to change? Is this really that important?

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 08:01:11 AM »
I'll be honest, I don't really care. I find this entertaining and nothing else. The shape of the planet is established and evidenced. Anyone can find out for themselves. Even if the illuminati announce tomorrow the earth is flat, how is your life going to change? Is this really that important?
Then stop posting.

I'm trying to get a list of all RE arguments, if all you're going to do is whine about how you don't care, leave.
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 04:13:35 PM »
Please add: Why is aviation dependent on round earth (all pilot training materials and examinations, planning, navigation, instrumentation, maps,
VHF range, radar, etc) and cannot work on flat earth?

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 04:16:59 PM »
Please add: Why is aviation dependent on round earth (all pilot training materials and examinations, planning, navigation, instrumentation, maps,
VHF range, radar, etc) and cannot work on flat earth?
Already have distances there, added flight times and flight paths. That all seems to just be appealing to one of the three.
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2017, 04:22:47 PM »
Please add: Why is aviation dependent on round earth (all pilot training materials and examinations, planning, navigation, instrumentation, maps,
VHF range, radar, etc) and cannot work on flat earth?
Already have distances there, added flight times and flight paths. That all seems to just be appealing to one of the three.

VHF (or any line of sight radio) range would be a good specific one to add. This is something easily tested by anyone (book a trial flight and ask to tune into a VOR, fly away from it and measure the distance when you lose signal). To articulate the question: why do line of sight radio signals disappear in accordance to of the earth were round and of the dimensions claimed?

Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 04:24:00 PM »
The aviation question is more general than distances etc - it's: why does all aviation (military, commercial and private) operate on the basis the earth is round?

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 04:26:45 PM »
The aviation question is more general than distances etc - it's: why does all aviation (military, commercial and private) operate on the basis the earth is round?
Added the radio point, but this seems to just be the same question. I have a few repeats in there because they alter focus, but the issue with this question is that 'why does aviation operate this way?' is literally the same as 'why are the flight paths of aviation like this?' etc. The way they operate is their paths and distances and communications.
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 05:10:08 PM »
The aviation question is more general than distances etc - it's: why does all aviation (military, commercial and private) operate on the basis the earth is round?
Added the radio point, but this seems to just be the same question. I have a few repeats in there because they alter focus, but the issue with this question is that 'why does aviation operate this way?' is literally the same as 'why are the flight paths of aviation like this?' etc. The way they operate is their paths and distances and communications.

I haven't articulated it well - I'm trying to get at a wider point than just flight paths. The whole culture - and that it all works perfectly with round earth, the software, the map projections, the observations, the measurements, everything a pilot is taught in ground school, in the air, in the simulators - and beyond that the industry is huge, technicians, designers, engineers, air trafffic control, equipment manufacture etc. 10 million people work in the aviation industry globally. How can all these people operate effectively and safely if they are wrong about the earth shape? Aviation as we know it wouldn't work with flat earth - its a bigger question but not sure how to word it.

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 05:17:33 PM »
The aviation question is more general than distances etc - it's: why does all aviation (military, commercial and private) operate on the basis the earth is round?
Added the radio point, but this seems to just be the same question. I have a few repeats in there because they alter focus, but the issue with this question is that 'why does aviation operate this way?' is literally the same as 'why are the flight paths of aviation like this?' etc. The way they operate is their paths and distances and communications.

I haven't articulated it well - I'm trying to get at a wider point than just flight paths. The whole culture - and that it all works perfectly with round earth, the software, the map projections, the observations, the measurements, everything a pilot is taught in ground school, in the air, in the simulators - and beyond that the industry is huge, technicians, designers, engineers, air trafffic control, equipment manufacture etc. 10 million people work in the aviation industry globally. How can all these people operate effectively and safely if they are wrong about the earth shape? Aviation as we know it wouldn't work with flat earth - its a bigger question but not sure how to word it.
Aviation, and the routes/distances/communications are basically synonymous. Software, map projections, observations, measurements... All that's just repeating the same point and doing so more explicitly than the usual refocusing, so I'm not including it.
How those people operate is only a question when the planes are flying. The shape of the Earth has no relevance to the manufacture of a plane, just what it does when it's in flight, and all of what it does in flight is currently listed.
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 05:28:55 PM »
The aviation question is more general than distances etc - it's: why does all aviation (military, commercial and private) operate on the basis the earth is round?
Added the radio point, but this seems to just be the same question. I have a few repeats in there because they alter focus, but the issue with this question is that 'why does aviation operate this way?' is literally the same as 'why are the flight paths of aviation like this?' etc. The way they operate is their paths and distances and communications.

I haven't articulated it well - I'm trying to get at a wider point than just flight paths. The whole culture - and that it all works perfectly with round earth, the software, the map projections, the observations, the measurements, everything a pilot is taught in ground school, in the air, in the simulators - and beyond that the industry is huge, technicians, designers, engineers, air trafffic control, equipment manufacture etc. 10 million people work in the aviation industry globally. How can all these people operate effectively and safely if they are wrong about the earth shape? Aviation as we know it wouldn't work with flat earth - its a bigger question but not sure how to word it.
Aviation, and the routes/distances/communications are basically synonymous. Software, map projections, observations, measurements... All that's just repeating the same point and doing so more explicitly than the usual refocusing, so I'm not including it.
How those people operate is only a question when the planes are flying. The shape of the Earth has no relevance to the manufacture of a plane, just what it does when it's in flight, and all of what it does in flight is currently listed.

Fair enough - maybe the question is: How millions of people relying on a round earth for their jobs can be wrong? Or how is it that there are so many highly intelligent and highly trained people being hoodwinked? But that a comparative handful of people on the internet can see the "truth"?

The other question I have is "so what?". If someone came up with proof of flat earth tomorrow, then so be it. I've still got to go to work and pay my bills, my plans his weekend won't change. Whose lives will be affected if we wake up one morning to news of flat earth? And how will it change?

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JRoweSkeptic

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 05:37:19 PM »
Fair enough - maybe the question is: How millions of people relying on a round earth for their jobs can be wrong? Or how is it that there are so many highly intelligent and highly trained people being hoodwinked? But that a comparative handful of people on the internet can see the "truth"?

The other question I have is "so what?". If someone came up with proof of flat earth tomorrow, then so be it. I've still got to go to work and pay my bills, my plans his weekend won't change. Whose lives will be affected if we wake up one morning to news of flat earth? And how will it change?
Like I said, this thread is to list the arguments, not debate them.
If you don't care one way or the other about FET then stop wasting everybody's time on this site. It's pointless to post here if you don't care enough to put any effort in.
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2017, 05:51:52 PM »
Fair enough - maybe the question is: How millions of people relying on a round earth for their jobs can be wrong? Or how is it that there are so many highly intelligent and highly trained people being hoodwinked? But that a comparative handful of people on the internet can see the "truth"?

The other question I have is "so what?". If someone came up with proof of flat earth tomorrow, then so be it. I've still got to go to work and pay my bills, my plans his weekend won't change. Whose lives will be affected if we wake up one morning to news of flat earth? And how will it change?
Like I said, this thread is to list the arguments, not debate them.
If you don't care one way or the other about FET then stop wasting everybody's time on this site. It's pointless to post here if you don't care enough to put any effort in.

You misunderstand - I care about the interesting discussion, the ideas proposed, finding out about new stuff, the humour and the psychology.

I'm a little tiny person, and locally on this collosal planet it doesn't make the slightest difference to my life if the earth is flat, round, square, tesseract or virtual reality. But that doesn't lessen the enjoyment of this site.

Anyway I'll leave it there - good luck with the list. Hopefully it can form the basis of a set of requirements that some clever FE folk can address in a working model.




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Arealhumanbeing

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2017, 09:09:26 PM »
Even if the illuminati announce tomorrow the earth is flat, how is your life going to change? Is this really that important?

Ah yes, the mark of an idiot.

Most likely a shill though.

You wouldnt care that your leaders are all lying to your face and laughing behind at you behind your back?

K bro.

Yeah, that shouldnt change your outlook on life at alllll. Riiiiight.

Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2017, 08:06:20 AM »
Even if the illuminati announce tomorrow the earth is flat, how is your life going to change? Is this really that important?

Ah yes, the mark of an idiot.

Most likely a shill though.

You wouldnt care that your leaders are all lying to your face and laughing behind at you behind your back?

K bro.

Yeah, that shouldnt change your outlook on life at alllll. Riiiiight.

"Shill' - lol. The mark of an FE idiot - such a cop out to deflect in this manner.

In specific terms, how has your day to day life changed since you started believing in flat earth? Spending more time doing "research" on the internet doesn't count. What actually has changed in your life?

And what is the nature of your fight to topple the lying leaders and expose the truth? You lot all talk the talk - but you're just wittering on to each other in your little echo chambers calling anyone that disagrees with your odd views a shill. What actual good are you doing?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2017, 10:15:19 AM »
Fair enough - maybe the question is: How millions of people relying on a round earth for their jobs can be wrong? Or how is it that there are so many highly intelligent and highly trained people being hoodwinked? But that a comparative handful of people on the internet can see the "truth"?

The other question I have is "so what?". If someone came up with proof of flat earth tomorrow, then so be it. I've still got to go to work and pay my bills, my plans his weekend won't change. Whose lives will be affected if we wake up one morning to news of flat earth? And how will it change?
Like I said, this thread is to list the arguments, not debate them.
If you don't care one way or the other about FET then stop wasting everybody's time on this site. It's pointless to post here if you don't care enough to put any effort in.

You misunderstand - I care about the interesting discussion, the ideas proposed, finding out about new stuff, the humour and the psychology.

I'm a little tiny person, and locally on this collosal planet it doesn't make the slightest difference to my life if the earth is flat, round, square, tesseract or virtual reality. But that doesn't lessen the enjoyment of this site.

Anyway I'll leave it there - good luck with the list. Hopefully it can form the basis of a set of requirements that some clever FE folk can address in a working model.

I like your attitude about the forum. This forum can be lots of fun, and you can learn a lot, no matter what shape you think the earth is.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Arealhumanbeing

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2017, 12:36:42 PM »
Even if the illuminati announce tomorrow the earth is flat, how is your life going to change? Is this really that important?

Ah yes, the mark of an idiot.

Most likely a shill though.

You wouldnt care that your leaders are all lying to your face and laughing behind at you behind your back?

K bro.

Yeah, that shouldnt change your outlook on life at alllll. Riiiiight.

"Shill' - lol. The mark of an FE idiot - such a cop out to deflect in this manner.

In specific terms, how has your day to day life changed since you started believing in flat earth? Spending more time doing "research" on the internet doesn't count. What actually has changed in your life?

And what is the nature of your fight to topple the lying leaders and expose the truth? You lot all talk the talk - but you're just wittering on to each other in your little echo chambers calling anyone that disagrees with your odd views a shill. What actual good are you doing?

You failed to answer my question, Mr. Cop out.

Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2017, 06:04:48 PM »
Even if the illuminati announce tomorrow the earth is flat, how is your life going to change? Is this really that important?

Ah yes, the mark of an idiot.

Most likely a shill though.

You wouldnt care that your leaders are all lying to your face and laughing behind at you behind your back?

K bro.

Yeah, that shouldnt change your outlook on life at alllll. Riiiiight.

"Shill' - lol. The mark of an FE idiot - such a cop out to deflect in this manner.

In specific terms, how has your day to day life changed since you started believing in flat earth? Spending more time doing "research" on the internet doesn't count. What actually has changed in your life?

And what is the nature of your fight to topple the lying leaders and expose the truth? You lot all talk the talk - but you're just wittering on to each other in your little echo chambers calling anyone that disagrees with your odd views a shill. What actual good are you doing?

You failed to answer my question, Mr. Cop out.

I thought the answer was implied? Do I care leaders lie to us? Yes and no. It's been happening for millennia. It will keep happening long after we are gone. Does it affect my life? Not sure - it was the world I was born into. Will a flat earth forum disrupt the highest levels of power? No. So in summary - no, I don't care. I'm not apathetic, but a centuries old problem does not take precendece over day to day stuff I need to deal with.

Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2017, 12:57:23 PM »
there are multiple anti-RE arguments on the first pages of FEG and FED right now anyway.

Every single FE argument relies totally on there being a conspiracy making false claims about spaceflight/satellites/pictures of earth. Since there are many, many threads explaining that this concept is so ludicrous it stretches credibility to beyond breaking point, then the whole house of cards suddenly has no foundation. It doesn't matter how good your explanation for what stops water going off the edge is, if that explanation also relies on NASA doing CGI of space in the 1960's.
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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2017, 11:00:16 AM »
The aviation question is more general than distances etc - it's: why does all aviation (military, commercial and private) operate on the basis the earth is round?
Added the radio point, but this seems to just be the same question. I have a few repeats in there because they alter focus, but the issue with this question is that 'why does aviation operate this way?' is literally the same as 'why are the flight paths of aviation like this?' etc. The way they operate is their paths and distances and communications.

I haven't articulated it well - I'm trying to get at a wider point than just flight paths. The whole culture - and that it all works perfectly with round earth, the software, the map projections, the observations, the measurements, everything a pilot is taught in ground school, in the air, in the simulators - and beyond that the industry is huge, technicians, designers, engineers, air trafffic control, equipment manufacture etc. 10 million people work in the aviation industry globally. How can all these people operate effectively and safely if they are wrong about the earth shape? Aviation as we know it wouldn't work with flat earth - its a bigger question but not sure how to word it.
Aviation, and the routes/distances/communications are basically synonymous. Software, map projections, observations, measurements... All that's just repeating the same point and doing so more explicitly than the usual refocusing, so I'm not including it.
How those people operate is only a question when the planes are flying. The shape of the Earth has no relevance to the manufacture of a plane, just what it does when it's in flight, and all of what it does in flight is currently listed.

What you say may well apply to hardware, engines, nuts and bolts....but the navigational software systems all know about the spherical earth.

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Arealhumanbeing

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Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2017, 11:46:58 AM »
Even if the illuminati announce tomorrow the earth is flat, how is your life going to change? Is this really that important?

Ah yes, the mark of an idiot.

Most likely a shill though.

You wouldnt care that your leaders are all lying to your face and laughing at you behind your back?

K bro.

Yeah, that shouldnt change your outlook on life at alllll. Riiiiight.

"Shill' - lol. The mark of an FE idiot - such a cop out to deflect in this manner.

In specific terms, how has your day to day life changed since you started believing in flat earth? Spending more time doing "research" on the internet doesn't count. What actually has changed in your life?

And what is the nature of your fight to topple the lying leaders and expose the truth? You lot all talk the talk - but you're just wittering on to each other in your little echo chambers calling anyone that disagrees with your odd views a shill. What actual good are you doing?

You failed to answer my question, Mr. Cop out.

I thought the answer was implied? Do I care leaders lie to us? Yes and no. It's been happening for millennia. It will keep happening long after we are gone. Does it affect my life? Not sure - it was the world I was born into. Will a flat earth forum disrupt the highest levels of power? No. So in summary - no, I don't care. I'm not apathetic, but a centuries old problem does not take precendece over day to day stuff I need to deal with.

It should take precedence.

The Nazis would love you, if you really don't care about governments lying.

Kenny - "Why am I going into this chamber"

Nazi - "Lollipops"

Kenny - "Ok, Ill go in, i've got better things to do than worry about the government lying to me."

Re: RE Arguments Summarized
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2017, 03:59:46 AM »

It should take precedence.

The Nazis would love you, if you really don't care about governments lying.

Kenny - "Why am I going into this chamber"

Nazi - "Lollipops"

Kenny - "Ok, Ill go in, i've got better things to do than worry about the government lying to me."

I've also got better things to do than believe in lollipops. I'm not gullible and know there are lies.

But I'm not a hypocrite. Anyone that says they care about leaders lying should be doing something about it. What are you doing?