The problem with the sun on the flat earth

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The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« on: June 06, 2017, 06:35:37 PM »
THIS IS BEING POSTED AGAIN in debate rather than Q&A.


On youtube I continually see this animation of the sun rotating above a flat earth. Now that might explain it to someone who has never seen a light source before, but isnt it rather obvious that the sun MUST be visible over the entire surface of the earth ALL the time? It might be more distant during the supposed FE 'night' but it should be easily visible. What's more, the light at any point cannot be any less that ~25% of maximum illumination directly below the sun.

So I imagine the sun could have a kind of collar around it so that light only goes to a smallish angle, but even then, anyone who has seen a light fitting knows that you would still see the presence of the light source - and we dont.

Also, Antarctica has periods of sunlight 24 hrs a day and a circling sun simply could not produce that. The most entertaining comment Ive heard on this is that 'light doesn't travel very far' which is possibly the most idiotic thing I've heard yet.

Also, the circling sun around the equator would appear to most of us as a single light source rotating in the sky in a limited circular pattern (dependent on how high the sun is) with no sunrise and no sunset.

So.... thoughts people?  And please... no absurd mis-use of Perspective or thinking that a 'vanishing point' actually has objects literally 'vanish'.

This concept and animation always makes me chuckle as the above point seem rather obvious.

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 10:28:03 AM »
The Sun is not rotating above the flat earth, it is clearly in the middle of the North Pole.

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2017, 05:42:02 PM »
The Sun is not rotating above the flat earth, it is clearly in the middle of the North Pole.

Yes, floating directly above Santa Claus.
If I'm a complete Idiot for not believing in your Heliocentric fairytale then so be it.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2017, 06:12:13 PM »
You can often not see a mountain that is just a few dozen miles away, yet you are trying to convince us that we should be capable of seeing infinitly through the atmoplane.  ::)

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2017, 06:38:12 PM »
You can often not see a mountain that is just a few dozen miles away, yet you are trying to convince us that we should be capable of seeing infinitly through the atmoplane.  ::)

Is the atmoplane infinite? Does the sun move an infinite distance from the observer when it "sets" in this fantasy fairyland flat earth?
If I'm a complete Idiot for not believing in your Heliocentric fairytale then so be it.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 06:45:20 PM »
If you can not see infinitely through the atmoplane, then at some point, the sun would not be visible.  Why does this concept confuse you roundies?

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 07:02:22 PM »
If you can not see infinitely through the atmoplane, then at some point, the sun would not be visible.  Why does this concept confuse you roundies?

You did not answer my questions. They were quite simple. You do understand the concept of infinity I take it? (Or perhaps not?)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 07:04:09 PM by Zammo »
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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2017, 07:20:38 PM »
It does not matter if the atmoplane is infinite or not.  The sun is always a finite distance from you.

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2017, 07:24:27 PM »
If you can not see infinitely through the atmoplane, then at some point, the sun would not be visible.  Why does this concept confuse you roundies?
Perhaps, but it would not disappear behind the horizon, maintaining the same shape and size.  And once gone it would not cast light upwards to the top of a mountain or bottom of the clouds.
Why does this concept confuse the FE ers?

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2017, 07:37:35 PM »
Perhaps you are under the impression that light only ever travels in straight lines?

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2017, 07:59:23 PM »
It does not matter if the atmoplane is infinite or not.  The sun is always a finite distance from you.

Well done. So the sun is always a finite distance from the observer. Glad we cleared that up. Why even mention infinity then? Now to the problem of the sun maintaining its size, shape and clarity and moving at a constant velocity towards the horizon, then clearly sinking below it. All clear evidence we are not dealing with a "spotlight" fading off into the distance, which would alter in shape, reduce in size, becomes less clear due to atmospheric obscuration,  slow in angular velocity and always stay above the horizon in a flat earth.
If I'm a complete Idiot for not believing in your Heliocentric fairytale then so be it.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2017, 08:06:26 PM »
Can we agree that light can not propogate infinitely through the atmoplane?  If so, then maybe we can move on to try to answer the questions that we may have. 

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 08:11:34 PM »
Can we agree that light can not propogate infinitely through the atmoplane?  If so, then maybe we can move on to try to answer the questions that we may have.

I will agree with you that light cannot propagate infinitely through an atmosphere, though cannot imagine any circumstance of an infinite atmosphere in our Universe, nor why this is at all relevant when you have confirmed the distance from the sun to the observer is ALWAYS finite.
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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 08:26:51 PM »
Light traveling infinitely through the atmoplane was a hypothetical situation in order to refute the claim that the sun should be visible at all times.  People come here all the time claiming that they should be able to see England from New York if the Earth is flat or some other such nonsense.  Which other piece of nonsense do I have to make you look dumb for claiming?

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 08:47:54 PM »
Light traveling infinitely through the atmoplane was a hypothetical situation in order to refute the claim that the sun should be visible at all times.  People come here all the time claiming that they should be able to see England from New York if the Earth is flat or some other such nonsense.  Which other piece of nonsense do I have to make you look dumb for claiming?
Nice attempt at diversion, but lets try and stay on track. We have established the concept of light travelling infinitely is irrelevant, and that the setting sun obeys all the expected features of a spherical earth and sun, and none of the expected features of a "spotlight" sun on a flat earth. The OP has made some other good points that our observations of the sun confirm a spherical sun and a spherical earth. You appear to be attempting to divert from these observations with some irrelevant nonsense about light traveling through a theoretical infinite atmosphere. The only person appearing to be dumb in this thread seems to be you.
If I'm a complete Idiot for not believing in your Heliocentric fairytale then so be it.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2017, 09:17:13 PM »
Light traveling infinitely through the atmoplane is not irrelevant.  The OP made the claim that if the Earth is flat, then the sun should be visible from any place on Earth all the time.  Do you have reading comprehension issues, or are you purposely trying to derail this thread?

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2017, 09:26:04 PM »
Light traveling infinitely through the atmoplane is not irrelevant.  The OP made the claim that if the Earth is flat, then the sun should be visible from any place on Earth all the time.  Do you have reading comprehension issues, or are you purposely trying to derail this thread?
The sun being visible from any place on Earth all the time on a theoretically flat earth does not require light to travel infinitely at any point in time, thus the point is irrelevant. Do you have simple logic issues? Stop trying to derail this thread and focus on why all observations point to a spherical earth and spherical sun. I have pointed out a few of them to keep things simple for you.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 09:28:24 PM by Zammo »
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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2017, 09:41:05 PM »
I don't want to get too personal, but I am curious if you have been diagnosed with ADD or some other disorder that causes you to not be able to focus on a single topic at a time.  I was addressing a claim that was made in the OP.  You seem to either be inadvertently or possibly even purposely attempting to derail the thread.  I hope this is not a view of the future in regards to your posts that I will read. 

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2017, 09:54:09 PM »
I don't want to get too personal, but I am curious if you have been diagnosed with ADD or some other disorder that causes you to not be able to focus on a single topic at a time.  I was addressing a claim that was made in the OP.  You seem to either be inadvertently or possibly even purposely attempting to derail the thread.  I hope this is not a view of the future in regards to your posts that I will read.

I could the same of you. Your perseveration with the assertion that light would need to travel "infintely" despite acknowledging this is not necessary is of some concern. Highly illogical. Nevertheless, lets move on.

Let's address the single topic the OP has proposed that concerns you. Let's take this theoretical flat earth and consider the sun starting directly overhead and moving 5000km away from an observer including sunset. The sun is celestial (can we at least agree on that?), and therefore its light does not need to pass through all 5000km of "atmoplane". If you know the distance of the sun from the earth, and the thickness of the atmoplane, you could even calculate the amount of atmoplane the sun's light would need to travel through, but let's dispense with calculations. What would you expect to observe, keeping in mind the sun shines light as a "spotlight" in this theoretical world, as the sun moves from overhead to the 5000km point (with particular reference to the point of sunset). I will concede for the sake of simplicity that on this theoretical flat earth with it's atmoplane, at 5000km distance no light from the sun reaches the observer anymore, though I don't truly believe this would be the case.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 09:56:39 PM by Zammo »
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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2017, 10:02:04 PM »
I would expect that when the sun is overhead, there is an effective amount of atmoplane between you and the sun.  I would also expect that if the sun moves a distance away from being directly overhead, that the effective amount of atmoplane increases.  Given that light can not travel infinitely through the atmoplane, then it can be deduced that eventually, the atmoplane would block all the light at a certain distance.

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2017, 10:28:25 PM »
I would expect that when the sun is overhead, there is an effective amount of atmoplane between you and the sun.  I would also expect that if the sun moves a distance away from being directly overhead, that the effective amount of atmoplane increases.  Given that light can not travel infinitely through the atmoplane, then it can be deduced that eventually, the atmoplane would block all the light at a certain distance.

I can live with that. Very clear and consistent with what we see. When the sun is overhead, it's bright, and as the sun moves towards setting and eventually night, the amount of light decreases. Now let's focus on just one more aspect of the appearance of the sun going from directly overhead to 5000km away on a hypothetical flat earth. What would happen to the observable size of the sun as it moves from directly overhead to the point that all light from it is blocked?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 11:08:50 PM by Zammo »
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Masalang the Torpedo

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2017, 11:14:28 PM »
Jroa you are WRONG. Sorry to bust your ego down a notch but what you say is utterly ridiculous in its entirety

The atmoplane of the earth is not so dense that a star with a magnitude of -27 could not be seen yet a star with a magnitude of +5 or +6 could be seen with the naked eye on the horizon.

In fact light travels through our atmoplane almost entirely unimpeded. Light travels in a vacuum at 186,282 miles per second and through the Earth's atmosphere, it moves at 186,227 miles per second. You are suggesting our atmosphere is dense enough that it gets blocked to 0. Ridiculous. A star as close as ours at the brightness that it is there is no way it could not be detected yet we can observe the Andromeda galaxy or planets billions of miles away

It's time to rethink the model. The current one does not much observation or fact.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2017, 12:52:20 AM »
You can often not see a mountain that is just a few dozen miles away, yet you are trying to convince us that we should be capable of seeing infinitly through the atmoplane.  ::)
Yes, you often can't see a mountain that is some distance away because it is below the horizon.

We can see stars quite close to the horizon, even though they would have to go through just as much atmoplane as the sun light would.

But that is another big issue with the sun, the angles are all wrong.

If you can not see infinitely through the atmoplane, then at some point, the sun would not be visible.  Why does this concept confuse you roundies?
Only if the sun gets infinitely far away or reaches some threshhold distance.

But the big issue is with how it disappears. If this was the case, it would shrink to a point or go blurry and the light would fade until we couldn't see it. Instead we see it clearly disappear from the bottom up.

Perhaps you are under the impression that light only ever travels in straight lines?
No, it will also curve towards things which have mass, and it can be refracted by the atmosphere.
But both of these things would make it appear higher, not lower.

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2017, 02:02:38 AM »
The OP posits a fair and reasonable question and Jroas's answers are Trump-like in that they alter according to the last statement made. Light does not get blocked by the atmosphere. Quite simply, the very fact that we can see stars at all at an impossibly low illumination level through the atmosphere proves that. I've heard that argument before that somehow light can only travel 'so far' when every shred of evidence is that it will actually  travel infinitely unless blocked by a solid object.

I concur that a sun as the FE model suggests would always be visible to some degree from every point on earth even with the somewhat ludicrous 'spotlight' model in play. Also, a regular airplane with a good telescope should be able to view much of the surface of a flat earth and a very high balloon or plane should be able to literally photograph and exact picture of it.

Another point not mentioned is that the moon would also be visible everywhere at all times day and night and additionally, a spotlight sun could not possibly illuminate it.

The terminator is also very close to a straight line. In this model. it would be circular. 

I think it is time to accept that this particular description of how the sun operates on a flat earth is absolutely debunked. There is too much wrong with it and almost nothing right.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2017, 04:15:32 AM »
Mind if I comment on a one of your statements? (More later)

You can often not see a mountain that is just a few dozen miles away, yet you are trying to convince us that we should be capable of seeing infinitly through the atmoplane.  ::)
Sure, sometimes that might be true, but sometimes you can see much further, just look
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Originally Posted by Klazu on the SkyscraperPage Forum.
Just how crazy it is to look out of your window and see Mount Rainier. Yes, I really mean bloody Mount Rainier which is behind Seattle, some 286 kilometers away (that's 177 miles)!
Mount Rainier is actually so far away that due to Earth's curvature only the very tip of this giant (4,392m / 14,411ft) can be seen this far.


See SkyscraperPage Forum, page 13
Yes, Mt Rainier is certainly visible, as this magnified version shows:
And also
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You can see an unobstructed view of Vancouver's skyline from the mountains of Vancouver island up to 145km northwest of downtown. The Olympic mountains in Washington State are 150+km, but have a partly obscured view due to the hill that the city of Vancouver is located. But the 280km view from Mt Rainier to Metrotown is hands-down the winner.

In conclusion, from Mt Rainier, one can actually see any building taller than ~80m in Burnaby's Metrotown.

From Furthest your city's skyline can be seen from?

So, jroa, maybe "You can often not see a mountain that is just a few dozen miles away", but you can also see much further at times.

And the important point is that the sun rises and sets at very predictable times almost all the time.

So your claims of not being "capable of seeing infinitly through the atmoplane" being the explanation of sunrise and sunset are hogwash.

You really should put you brain into gear before touching the keyboard.

Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2017, 04:30:08 AM »
Light traveling infinitely through the atmoplane is not irrelevant.  The OP made the claim that if the Earth is flat, then the sun should be visible from any place on Earth all the time.  Do you have reading comprehension issues, or are you purposely trying to derail this thread?

how do you explain the direction of the sun set and sun rise:

i saw this graphic from rabinoz


Flat Earth Sunset - 'perspective'

my question to the Flat Earth Idea Believers is:
the observer looks in reality directly to the west to see the sun set. he can also verify the direction view maps.

according to the Flat Earth Map he should be looking in a more north west direction to see the sun set.

how do you FEIB explain this? it is clearly visible that the Flat Earth Idea does not match the reality.

i never got an answer in Q&A.

now is your change to show you knowledge.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2017, 05:39:50 AM »
I would expect that when the sun is overhead, there is an effective amount of atmoplane between you and the sun.  I would also expect that if the sun moves a distance away from being directly overhead, that the effective amount of atmoplane increases.  Given that light can not travel infinitely through the atmoplane, then it can be deduced that eventually, the atmoplane would block all the light at a certain distance.
Now if only there was a way to determine that certain distance.
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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2017, 06:29:13 AM »
Perhaps you are under the impression that light only ever travels in straight lines?
Which in no way addresses my point about disappearing behind the horizon.
As for light bending, perhaps you are under the impression that the atmosphere will have exactly the same effect on light at every altitude and climate.  A perfectly cocsistant and predictable effect.

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2017, 06:34:25 AM »
I would expect that when the sun is overhead, there is an effective amount of atmoplane between you and the sun.  I would also expect that if the sun moves a distance away from being directly overhead, that the effective amount of atmoplane increases.  Given that light can not travel infinitely through the atmoplane, then it can be deduced that eventually, the atmoplane would block all the light at a certain distance.

I can live with that. Very clear and consistent with what we see. When the sun is overhead, it's bright, and as the sun moves towards setting and eventually night, the amount of light decreases. Now let's focus on just one more aspect of the appearance of the sun going from directly overhead to 5000km away on a hypothetical flat earth. What would happen to the observable size of the sun as it moves from directly overhead to the point that all light from it is blocked?

Have you never heard of atmoplanic lensing?

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Re: The problem with the sun on the flat earth
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2017, 06:35:42 AM »
Jroa you are WRONG. Sorry to bust your ego down a notch but what you say is utterly ridiculous in its entirety

The atmoplane of the earth is not so dense that a star with a magnitude of -27 could not be seen yet a star with a magnitude of +5 or +6 could be seen with the naked eye on the horizon.

In fact light travels through our atmoplane almost entirely unimpeded. Light travels in a vacuum at 186,282 miles per second and through the Earth's atmosphere, it moves at 186,227 miles per second. You are suggesting our atmosphere is dense enough that it gets blocked to 0. Ridiculous. A star as close as ours at the brightness that it is there is no way it could not be detected yet we can observe the Andromeda galaxy or planets billions of miles away

It's time to rethink the model. The current one does not much observation or fact.


Our atmoplane is not a vacuum, now is it?