Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?

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FlatAssembler

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Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« on: May 31, 2017, 07:34:19 AM »
For those of you who are unaware, object-oriented programming is basically an attempt to increase the productivity of programmers by making the programming languages follow the subject-verb-object word order. It is a paradigm found in many popular programming languages such as Objective-C, C++, Java, C#, Visual Basic, and so on, C being somewhat of an exception.
For instance, the C directive:
memset(field,0,10);
that fills the field (a part of a memory) with ten zeros, would be written in C++ as:
field.insert(field.begin(),10,0);
"Let the field insert, at its beginning, ten zeros."
This might appear to be a great advantage at first. However, to enable such statements in C++, you need to make the so-called classes and objects, which quite often make the code very complicated. A meta-analysis of the empirical studies funded by IBM found no benefits of using object-oriented programming whatsoever.
http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~v8q/Homepage/Papers%20Old/spetep-%20printable.pdf
So, my question is, is OOP actually a pseudoscience? It appears to be. It makes countless nonsensical rules on how to use classes and objects just to explain away why it doesn't appear to increase the productivity. That's no better than what astrology does, when its proponents say that the predictions fail because it's hard to make a horoscope. There is no scientific consensus about those rules whatsoever, the proponents of OOP can't agree even on whether C++ is an object-oriented programming language or not. It makes countless statements regarding formal logic and philosophy that programmers have no hope evaluating (much like the conspiracy theorists bombard people with claims about the photographic anomalies most of the people can't evaluate).
Attempt to increase the programming productivity using the declarative programming languages (like Haskell or Wolfram Language) appear to be much more scientific, at least the empirical studies that favor them, but they seem to attract very little attention.
So, let's hear your thoughts.
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deadsirius

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2017, 07:56:23 AM »
I dunno...I mean, it works, doesn't it?

The analogy to pseudoscience or astrology seems kind of inapplicable.  You can write programs in C++ that will do exactly the precise and predictable things you wrote it to do...the question of efficiency is for more knowledgeable coders than myself but I can't really see what's "pseudo" about that.

It feels like asking if cars with automatic transmissions are "pseudo-engineering" because some of the shifting mechanics are "hidden" behind the relative user-friendliness of the automatic shifter.
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Crouton

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2017, 08:31:51 AM »
Psuedoscience?  No.  But your programming paradigm doesn't really fall under the realm of science.  It's really whatever helps you maintain cognitive control of your software.

In a small program, less than 10 thousand lines, you can get away with procedural programming.  Once you get beyond that, like around a 100 thousand lines or a million lines, you'll be sorry you adopted that paradigm.  It's a pattern I see with hardware guys that write software.  They code like their stuff is always going to be less than a thousand lines.

memset.  I wouldn't use OOP in such a way.  That example adds unnecessary complexity.  What I might do, depending on the circumstances, is wrap that function with a class to give me a shot at preventing it from trashing memory. 

Here's an example of a good use of a class. 

#include "common.h"
#ifndef INTCON_H_
#define INTCON_H_

class CIntCon
{
public://methods
   CIntCon(DWORD dwAddress,DWORD dwPort,int iTimeOut=30);
   virtual ~CIntCon();
   void Disconnect();
   FailureTypes Status();
   int Write(const char * pSendThis,int iLengthInBytes);
   int WriteViaPassthrough(const char * pSendThis,int iLengthInBytes,int iTarget);
   int Read(BYTE * pReadBuffer,int iBytesToRead);
public://variables
private://methods
   void Connect();
private://variables
   FailureTypes    m_fConnectStatus;
   DWORD             m_dwAddress;
   DWORD             m_dwPort;
   int             m_sock;
   int             m_iTimeout;
};

#endif /* INTCON_H_ */


#include "IntCon.h"

#include <ifaddrs.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>
#include <netdb.h>
#include <arpa/inet.h>

CIntCon::CIntCon(DWORD dwAddress,DWORD dwPort,int iTimeout)
{
   m_sock=-1;
   m_dwAddress=dwAddress;
   m_dwPort=dwPort;
   m_iTimeout=iTimeout;
   Connect();
}

void CIntCon::Connect()
{
   struct timeval       tv;
   struct sockaddr_in    addr;

   if(m_sock>=0)
      close(m_sock);

   m_sock=socket(AF_INET,SOCK_STREAM,0);
   if(m_sock<0)
   {
      m_fConnectStatus=ERROR_NO_SOCKET;
      return;
   }

   tv.tv_sec = m_iTimeout;
   tv.tv_usec = 0;
   if(setsockopt(m_sock, SOL_SOCKET, SO_SNDTIMEO,(struct timeval *)&tv,sizeof(struct timeval))!=0)
   {
      close(m_sock);
      m_sock=-1;
      m_fConnectStatus=ERROR_SOCKOPT_FAILED;
      return;
   }

   //tv.tv_sec=1;
   if(setsockopt(m_sock, SOL_SOCKET, SO_RCVTIMEO,(struct timeval *)&tv,sizeof(struct timeval))!=0)
   {
      close(m_sock);
      m_sock=-1;
      m_fConnectStatus= ERROR_SOCKOPT_FAILED;
      return;
   }

   bzero((char*)&addr,sizeof(addr));
   addr.sin_family=AF_INET;
   addr.sin_addr.s_addr=htonl(m_dwAddress);
   addr.sin_port=htons((BYTE)m_dwPort);
   if(connect(m_sock,(struct sockaddr *)&addr,sizeof(addr))!=0)
   {
      if(connect(m_sock,(struct sockaddr *)&addr,sizeof(addr))!=0)
      {
         close(m_sock);
         m_sock=-1;
         m_fConnectStatus= ERROR_CONNECT_FAILED;
         return;
      }
   }

   m_fConnectStatus= ERROR_OK;
}

void CIntCon::Disconnect()
{
   if(m_sock>=0)
   {
      close(m_sock);
      m_sock=-1;
   }
}

FailureTypes CIntCon::Status()
{
   return m_fConnectStatus;
}

int CIntCon::Write(const char * pSendThis,int iLengthInBytes)
{
   if(pSendThis==NULL || iLengthInBytes<=0)
   {
      return -1;
   }
   if(m_sock>=0)
   {
      return write(m_sock,pSendThis,iLengthInBytes);
   }
   else
   {
      return -1;
   }
}

int CIntCon::WriteViaPassthrough(const char * pSendThis,int iLengthInBytes,int iTarget)
{
   char * pPassthrough=NULL;
   int iRet=0;

   if(pSendThis==NULL || iLengthInBytes<=0 || m_sock<0)
      return -1;

   pPassthrough=(char*)calloc(1,sizeof(char)*strlen(pSendThis)+strlen("Passthrough xxx_"));
   sprintf(pPassthrough,"Passthrough %i_%s",iTarget,pSendThis);
   iRet=Write(pPassthrough,strlen(pPassthrough));
   free(pPassthrough);
   usleep(25000);//not sure if this is necessary yet
   return iRet;
}

int CIntCon::Read(BYTE * pReadBuffer,int iBytesToRead)
{
   if(pReadBuffer==NULL || iBytesToRead<=0)
   {
      return -1;
   }
   if(m_sock>=0)
   {
      /*int iTryCounter=0;
      int iRet=0;
      do
      {
         iRet=read(m_sock,pReadBuffer,iBytesToRead);
         iTryCounter++;
      }while(iTryCounter<10 && iRet<1);
      return iRet;*/
      return read(m_sock,pReadBuffer,iBytesToRead);
   }
   else
   {
      return -1;
   }
}

CIntCon::~CIntCon()
{
   Disconnect();
}

It's appropriate for what I'm using for since I'm using sockets in a very specific way in this particular application.  It makes the client code much cleaner.

There are some criticisms that c++ is c with OOP crammed into it.  This is a valid complaint.  Haskwell and Wolfram?  I've never worked with those.  If you want a language with great OOP built into it from the start then the dotnet framework or Java is the way to go.
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Dog

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2017, 12:36:52 PM »
Nope. It makes working with large projects (1mil+ lines) much easier.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2017, 12:44:26 PM »
Quote
It feels like asking if cars with automatic transmissions are "pseudo-engineering" because some of the shifting mechanics are "hidden" behind the relative user-friendliness of the automatic shifter.
A better analogy might be homeopathy. You know, it aims to cure illnesses (or errors in a program), yet it doesn't base itself on evidence and, because of that, it doesn't work.
Quote
But your programming paradigm doesn't really fall under the realm of science.
I don't think so. If it really improves the productivity, that increase should be measurable by properly done experiments. If you claim that BF (an esoteric programming language) is more productive than C, you do not state your opinion, you state a fact. And that fact can be, and it is, demonstrably wrong.
If I am to write tens of lines of code more, I'd have to see evidence that it would actually be helpful.
Quote
What I might do, depending on the circumstances, is wrap that function with a class to give me a shot at preventing it from trashing memory.
And why would you do, for example, a text editor in a programming language that doesn't have a good support for strings?
Isn't that just building useless skills?
Yes, if a programming language is object-oriented, you could, in theory, make it support string operations very well. But that's much like using Emacs (a text editor with a turing-complete Lisp interpreter) instead of XCODE (a full IDE) because it is theoretically capable of doing whatever XCODE is.
Some people say it's helpful to know how that what you are using works. I am not sure. Knowing about the algorithmic complexities of functions you are using can help you write more efficient code. However, I know people who make excellent 3D games without knowing the difference between shader and render.
Quote
Nope. It makes working with large projects (1mil+ lines) much easier.
Hey, listen, I don't have experience with that, so I can't evaluate the statement you are making. I know that, for instance, Linux, a kernel of tens of millions lines of code, is made without OOP. I have some experience from competitive programming, and I can tell you, I've never felt a temptation to use OOP. The closest I came to that is using a structure. I had spent a significant amount of time studying classed and objects, but that turned out to be fruitless. In the competitions, I've spent most of the time thinking how to solve problems that are trivially solvable in Haskell. And I don't see why would making longer programs be different. But if you can explain me, I am open for that.
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Crouton

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2017, 01:34:15 PM »
I don't think so. If it really improves the productivity, that increase should be measurable by properly done experiments. If you claim that BF (an esoteric programming language) is more productive than C, you do not state your opinion, you state a fact. And that fact can be, and it is, demonstrably wrong.
If I am to write tens of lines of code more, I'd have to see evidence that it would actually be helpful.

The thing is you're asking to quantify human productiveness.  That inherently falls outside of hard sciences and into social science.

And why would you do, for example, a text editor in a programming language that doesn't have a good support for strings?
Isn't that just building useless skills?
Yes, if a programming language is object-oriented, you could, in theory, make it support string operations very well. But that's much like using Emacs (a text editor with a turing-complete Lisp interpreter) instead of XCODE (a full IDE) because it is theoretically capable of doing whatever XCODE is.
Some people say it's helpful to know how that what you are using works. I am not sure. Knowing about the algorithmic complexities of functions you are using can help you write more efficient code. However, I know people who make excellent 3D games without knowing the difference between shader and render.

I'm not sure what you're asking me here.

Hey, listen, I don't have experience with that, so I can't evaluate the statement you are making. I know that, for instance, Linux, a kernel of tens of millions lines of code, is made without OOP. I have some experience from competitive programming, and I can tell you, I've never felt a temptation to use OOP. The closest I came to that is using a structure. I had spent a significant amount of time studying classed and objects, but that turned out to be fruitless. In the competitions, I've spent most of the time thinking how to solve problems that are trivially solvable in Haskell. And I don't see why would making longer programs be different. But if you can explain me, I am open for that.

I'm not totally sure what competitive programming is.  I'm guessing programming in a competition that's gives you or a team a limited amount of time to do something.  In a short project of course you're not going to do things like set up a source code repository or a Redmine instance to manage it.  The effort wouldn't yield much of a payoff there.  In a project that goes on for years or even decades these things save you much more time than they cost you.

The Linux kernel is written is C, I think that's for performance reasons.  The board initialization is very procedural but even though it's written in C the driver model is steeped in OOP.
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onebigmonkey

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2017, 12:15:44 AM »
I would say it's more analogous to engineering. It's not trying to prove something, or test something, it's trying to do something - often with a specific desired end result.

While it has the same strict set of rules that a proper scientific process has, there is considerable variation in how you can go about achieving the same end. My team at work use C# and VB a lot, and you can usually tell who has done the coding by looking at the style. Because of the way we've learnt how to do it we all use different methods to arrive at the same point.
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Heiwa

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2017, 03:48:14 AM »
Pseudoscience includes beliefs, theories, or practices that have been or are considered scientific, but have no basis in scientific fact. This means they are not proven scientifically, can't be tested or lack evidence to support them.

Computer programming is completely different. Just write your computer programme, run it, delete all the bugs in it, and maybe the programme can be used. If it doesn't work you have to do the calculations by hand using your brain.


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Crouton

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2017, 08:21:13 AM »
Alright then. In addition to not knowing anything about orbital mechanics, heiwa knows nothing about software development.

We learn something new everyday.
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Heiwa

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2017, 08:42:35 AM »
Alright then. In addition to not knowing anything about orbital mechanics, heiwa knows nothing about software development.

We learn something new everyday.

Well, 1971 I was asked to write some software for a company. At that time I wrote it in some forms provided, that I gave to a girl that punched cards of it. The cards were put in a box and the box was given to the people running the computer. The computer read the cards and didn't understand much. Bugs. After a while the card bugs were eliminated and the software I had written was up an running. Very popular. Instead of doing their own calculations my colleagues used my software, filled in some boxes and ... voilà ... the computer did the calculations.

Later, in the 1980's I wrote a software in another computer language for an other company to facilitate analysis of info received (from our ships). It worked very well. I learn't a lot.

You sound jealous. Do you know how to write software?

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Pezevenk

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2017, 08:59:34 AM »
Alright then. In addition to not knowing anything about orbital mechanics, heiwa knows nothing about software development.

We learn something new everyday.

Heiwa probably thinks there are actual bugs you have to kill inside computers  ::) ::) ::)
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Heiwa

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2017, 09:09:53 AM »
Alright then. In addition to not knowing anything about orbital mechanics, heiwa knows nothing about software development.

We learn something new everyday.

Heiwa probably thinks there are actual bugs you have to kill inside computers  ::) ::) ::)
You still sound jealous. Do you know how to write software?

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Crouton

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2017, 09:15:34 AM »
Alright then. In addition to not knowing anything about orbital mechanics, heiwa knows nothing about software development.

We learn something new everyday.

Well, 1971 I was asked to write some software for a company. At that time I wrote it in some forms provided, that I gave to a girl that punched cards of it. The cards were put in a box and the box was given to the people running the computer. The computer read the cards and didn't understand much. Bugs. After a while the card bugs were eliminated and the software I had written was up an running. Very popular. Instead of doing their own calculations my colleagues used my software, filled in some boxes and ... voilà ... the computer did the calculations.

Later, in the 1980's I wrote a software in another computer language for an other company to facilitate analysis of info received (from our ships). It worked very well. I learn't a lot.

You sound jealous. Do you know how to write software?

I am totally jelly. Please teach me your awesome punch card software development methods.

What language and what hardware? Also what sort of project was this?
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Heiwa

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2017, 09:43:19 AM »
Alright then. In addition to not knowing anything about orbital mechanics, heiwa knows nothing about software development.

We learn something new everyday.

Well, 1971 I was asked to write some software for a company. At that time I wrote it in some forms provided, that I gave to a girl that punched cards of it. The cards were put in a box and the box was given to the people running the computer. The computer read the cards and didn't understand much. Bugs. After a while the card bugs were eliminated and the software I had written was up an running. Very popular. Instead of doing their own calculations my colleagues used my software, filled in some boxes and ... voilà ... the computer did the calculations.

Later, in the 1980's I wrote a software in another computer language for an other company to facilitate analysis of info received (from our ships). It worked very well. I learn't a lot.

You sound jealous. Do you know how to write software?

I am totally jelly. Please teach me your awesome punch card software development methods.

What language and what hardware? Also what sort of project was this?
I just wrote the input to the software. A cute girl punched the cards. Then  I took the cards/box in the train to the IBM office at Yokohama station (we were in Japan!), and asked IBM to run it (box/cards). The computer was there! Great fun. I had to return next day to collect the printed output and pay a fortune for it. One day the printed output was ... one page. The card to tell the computer to print the output was missing. People jumped in front of trains at the station after such mishaps.
Not me ... I just laughed. It was a fantastic time. http://heiwaco.com

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Crouton

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2017, 09:47:25 AM »
Why do you say such stupid things?
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Pezevenk

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2017, 09:55:33 AM »
Alright then. In addition to not knowing anything about orbital mechanics, heiwa knows nothing about software development.

We learn something new everyday.

Heiwa probably thinks there are actual bugs you have to kill inside computers  ::) ::) ::)
You still sound jealous. Do you know how to write software?

I'm so fucking jealous of a 70 year old mythomaniac  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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markjo

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2017, 10:24:45 AM »
Computer programming is completely different. Just write your computer programme, run it, delete all the bugs in it, and maybe the programme can be used. If it doesn't work you have to do the calculations by hand using your brain.
Delete all the bugs? ???
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2017, 10:51:12 AM »
Just use DDT

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Pezevenk

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2017, 11:04:16 AM »
Just use DDT

Just wait until Heiwa describes his days as a foremost DDT manufacturer, AND as the person who first alerted people of its danger, making obscene amounts of money and picking up cute girls both times.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2017, 11:11:48 AM »
While, at the same time, denying the existence of DDT.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2017, 11:25:40 AM »
While, at the same time, denying the existence of DDT.

Oh yes, how could I forget!  ;D
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Heiwa

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2017, 01:31:46 PM »
While, at the same time, denying the existence of DDT.

Oh yes, how could I forget!  ;D
Alzheimer?

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Twerp

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2017, 01:33:48 PM »
Says the old curmudgeon!
“Heaven is being governed by Devil nowadays..” - Wise

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Heiwa

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2017, 01:49:08 PM »
You know the reason why I respond to all these stupid post?  It is so funny.

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Crouton

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2017, 01:53:41 PM »
We're having a good time.
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Heiwa

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2017, 02:09:07 PM »
No.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2017, 09:28:47 PM »
This is the only site the batteries in your commodore 64 will still allow you to access?

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Pezevenk

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2017, 10:53:05 PM »
While, at the same time, denying the existence of DDT.

Oh yes, how could I forget!  ;D
Alzheimer?

I don't think you have Alzheimer, it seems to me more like regular old senility.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
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Twerp

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2017, 11:12:38 PM »
While, at the same time, denying the existence of DDT.

Oh yes, how could I forget!  ;D
Alzheimer?

I don't think you have Alzheimer, it seems to me more like regular old senility.

It's actually a bad case of curmudgeonitis. 
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Crouton

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Re: Is object-oriented programming pseudoscience?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2017, 11:31:37 PM »
While, at the same time, denying the existence of DDT.

Oh yes, how could I forget!  ;D
Alzheimer?

I don't think you have Alzheimer, it seems to me more like regular old senility.

It's actually a bad case of curmudgeonitis.

Interesting.  I'll do some research and report back.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
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