How do FEers explain the horizon?

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wgzero

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Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2007, 05:25:37 PM »
Three things:
1: the photon is actually not considered to have mass (but it does have relativistic momentum)

2: unconvinced richard is right, the horizon would be much farther if the given FE explanation is true

3: several non-gov experiments have been performed (mostly in flat deserts) where lasers were were placed perfectly tangent to the earth. the laser was shined at constant latitude, and at increments usually around one to five miles apart, the light was a precalculated amount higher from the surface then before. explain this.

the most common curvature equation:

l =  r - r sin (pi/2 - asin (d/r))
r = radius of earth at given latitude
d = distance
use SI units and radians
I'm thinking about signing my first name as lexluther instead of alex...


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narcberry

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Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2007, 05:25:51 PM »
So you ask, "The gravitational affect would be just the opposite of what you describe, why doesnt the 'horizon effect' create a horizon that is concave instead of convex?"
Well you are quite right to observe this. This is however countered by the fact that our eyes actually observe things to be upside down, our brains counter this. This is why the horizon appears to be just the opposite of what you would expect.
That would not happen, the brain only flips the image, that would not change the appearance of the horizon. Also I wasn't aware waves had discernible mass, and so any effect of gravity would take a far greater distance to produce the effects you described.

Off topic
Wave theory is confusing to many people, including myself at times. Take light for instance. When talking about color, light is referenced as a wave that has no mass. When talking about particle theory, light is referenced as a photon that has mass. That is what confuses me. However, light has been shown to be affected by gravity.

On topic
You are approaching this from a perspective of a round earth that would attract the light with a gravitational field between the two bodies. This is why you're confused. Of course a horizon doesn't make sense if the world is round. But if a world is flat, the earth accelerates through the lights path. This means the light isn't bending towards the earth. This is why a flat earth and a horizon make perfect sense.
I understand where you are coming from with how the horizon works, I'm still just not sure that if we are moving at 9.8m/s and the light moving at 3x10^8m/s that it would cause a horizon effect so soon, light would travel thirty million meters for every meter the earth rises (that's if you round 9.8 to 10).

Using your numbers, I'm sure you would end up with a very slight horizon effect that we can observe. I have yet to see a drastic horizon effect that couldn't be explained with the above using your numbers.

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narcberry

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Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2007, 05:31:24 PM »
Three things:
1: the photon is actually not considered to have mass (but it does have relativistic momentum)
Momentum is defined to be velocity*mass...
Relativistic momentum means that as things approach the speed of light their mass increases, and that a photon has mass as long as it is moving. So yes, a photon has mass where the temperature is above 0 kelvin.

2: unconvinced richard is right, the horizon would be much farther if the given FE explanation is true
I disagree, the horizon is a very slight effect.

3: several non-gov experiments have been performed (mostly in flat deserts) where lasers were were placed perfectly tangent to the earth. the laser was shined at constant latitude, and at increments usually around one to five miles apart, the light was a precalculated amount higher from the surface then before. explain this.

the most common curvature equation:

l =  r - r sin (pi/2 - asin (d/r))
r = radius of earth at given latitude
d = distance
use SI units and radians
Im sorry, you explain that. Afterwards I will give any problems I have with it. Dont just throw some equations at me and expect me to see your point.

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wgzero

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  • slayer of Bright Theist
Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2007, 05:48:39 PM »
Three things:
1: the photon is actually not considered to have mass (but it does have relativistic momentum)
Momentum is defined to be velocity*mass...
Relativistic momentum means that as things approach the speed of light their mass increases, and that a photon has mass as long as it is moving. So yes, a photon has mass where the temperature is above 0 kelvin.

2: unconvinced richard is right, the horizon would be much farther if the given FE explanation is true
I disagree, the horizon is a very slight effect.

3: several non-gov experiments have been performed (mostly in flat deserts) where lasers were were placed perfectly tangent to the earth. the laser was shined at constant latitude, and at increments usually around one to five miles apart, the light was a precalculated amount higher from the surface then before. explain this.

the most common curvature equation:

l =  r - r sin (pi/2 - asin (d/r))
r = radius of earth at given latitude
d = distance
use SI units and radians
Im sorry, you explain that. Afterwards I will give any problems I have with it. Dont just throw some equations at me and expect me to see your point.
1: incorrect. A photon's relativistic momentum is defined as plank's constant divided by the photon's wavelength.

2: no offense, but could you be more specific?

3: example problem, where r = 6372797 (mean radius), d = 1609.344 (exactly one mile).
l =  6372797 - 6372797 sin (pi/2 - asin (1609.344/6372797))
l =  6372797 - 6372797 sin (1.570543793)
l =  6372797 - 6372796.797
l = .2032066meters = about 8 inches
so if you go a mile out tangent to the earth, the earth has 'fallen' about 8 inches. note that this is NOT additive (2 miles =/= 16 inches)
I'm thinking about signing my first name as lexluther instead of alex...


Political Compass: (-2.25, -4.92)

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narcberry

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Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2007, 06:05:59 PM »
Three things:
1: the photon is actually not considered to have mass (but it does have relativistic momentum)
Momentum is defined to be velocity*mass...
Relativistic momentum means that as things approach the speed of light their mass increases, and that a photon has mass as long as it is moving. So yes, a photon has mass where the temperature is above 0 kelvin.

2: unconvinced richard is right, the horizon would be much farther if the given FE explanation is true
I disagree, the horizon is a very slight effect.

3: several non-gov experiments have been performed (mostly in flat deserts) where lasers were were placed perfectly tangent to the earth. the laser was shined at constant latitude, and at increments usually around one to five miles apart, the light was a precalculated amount higher from the surface then before. explain this.

the most common curvature equation:

l =  r - r sin (pi/2 - asin (d/r))
r = radius of earth at given latitude
d = distance
use SI units and radians
Im sorry, you explain that. Afterwards I will give any problems I have with it. Dont just throw some equations at me and expect me to see your point.
1: incorrect. A photon's relativistic momentum is defined as plank's constant divided by the photon's wavelength.
My understanding is that you are correct but that it leads us into the mass of the photon based on its speed. If Im wrong let me know, but regardless this is a little offtopic.


2: no offense, but could you be more specific?
I guess all I'm saying is that the horizon effect generates an optical curve that is very close to a line. That is to say, the earth does not need to be moving faster than it is to generate the optical effect we observe.

3: example problem, where r = 6372797 (mean radius), d = 1609.344 (exactly one mile).
l =  6372797 - 6372797 sin (pi/2 - asin (1609.344/6372797))
l =  6372797 - 6372797 sin (1.570543793)
l =  6372797 - 6372796.797
l = .2032066meters = about 8 inches
so if you go a mile out tangent to the earth, the earth has 'fallen' about 8 inches. note that this is NOT additive (2 miles =/= 16 inches)
I see what you are saying now, thanks. However these formulae are used to explain a round earth. If the earth is not round these are moot.

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wgzero

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  • slayer of Bright Theist
Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2007, 06:24:14 PM »
1: the photon being massless but having momentum is one of the many quirks in relativity and QM.

2: for a person 1.7m high, they will see 4,701m. If the horizon were caused by earth accelerating and passing light, a person would see 176,582,281m. In effect, a person on the 'ice wall' would be able to, if there were no continents in the way, see a person on the other side of the ice wall (across the diameter).

this assumes that g=9.8m/s/s (c (speed of light) is defined as exactly 299792458m/s).

EDIT: 3: i see your point...
I'm thinking about signing my first name as lexluther instead of alex...


Political Compass: (-2.25, -4.92)

Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2017, 07:14:28 PM »
It's pretty obvious that the horizon is where stuff disappears over the curvature of the earth.  Meaning the earth is round.  Standing at the ocean shore the horizon is about 3 or 4 miles away.  From the top of the Empire State Building the horizon is about 250 miles away.  From a jet plane a few miles up it's several hundred miles. 

If we lived on a bigger planet - a much bigger sphere, like Jupiter - the curve would be a tad flatter and the horizon would stretch out a bit farther, but there would still be a horizon - a line where the curve of the planet hides stuff from us.  If we lived on a smaller planet - something the size of the moon - the curve would be tighter so the horizon would be closer than on earth.

But the horizon is proof that the earth is round.  Even with the most powerful telescopes we cannot see over the horizon.  Only traveling - either upward or forward - brings more stuff into view.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2017, 08:03:05 PM »
Cartog is a grave digger . . .


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rabinoz

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Re: How do FEers explain the horizon?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2017, 01:08:14 AM »
Cartog is a grave digger . . .


Should we have a chalkboard that we can record these resurrections on? Then we could see who to nominate to Guiness, the record book, not:

Pint of Guiness