Is Science the new Religion ?

There is no doubt in my mind, science is a religion. Not only can it be shown to advance from mystical experiences (and I can show this if needed), its social structure is identical in many respects to that in the dark ages.

Well there is doubt in my mind so that settles that one.
Well the name dark ages is a bit old hat coined in the 1930's and now felt to be very inaccurate as the ages in question were not dark! And it is now referred to by historians as the Early Middle Ages. I think this demonstrates your very antiquated view of history. Americans often find history difficult especially when dealing with times farther back than the 1900s, going as far back as the year 500, around the start of the Early MiddleAges is a big ask for those from the USA, and your comments give me 'no doubts in my mind' that this is indeed the case. If you want to know about early European history I suggest you come over to Europe and study it.

Science is science and religion is religion. What you are trying to do is like pretending oil is water because they are both liquid at room temperature.

From an evolutionary perspective, Hominids turned from a largely herbivore and fructivor habit as typical for primates (including the Australopithecines) to a hunting behaviour, and this is largely seen as having triggered the evolution of the human brain, because our brain needs much energy.

But then again, lot's of meat eating animals/apes have a rather low developed brain (by our standards) and e.g. an elephant, (which is huuuuuge) has about 3 times as much neurons in his nervous system as we have. So it seems rather far-fetched to imply that our brain developement happened due to meat-eating?
I think it's more that we have developed one specific part (/few parts) of our brain (especially cerebral cortex) and not brain developement in general.

But then again, lot's of meat eating animals/apes have a rather low developed brain (by our standards) and e.g. an elephant, (which is huuuuuge) has about 3 times as much neurons in his nervous system as we have. So it seems rather far-fetched to imply that our brain developement happened due to meat-eating?

Well, obviously eating meat does not necessarily lead to bigger brains, nobody claims that. It just provides more energy in less time than eating plants. Also elephants are more than 3 times bigger than we, aren't they?

I think it's more that we have developed one specific part (/few parts) of our brain (especially cerebral cortex) and not brain developement in general.

Yes, it is the growth of the cortex that is thought to have required a shift in our diet to proceed, because it is the part of our brain that needs so much energy.

There is no doubt in my mind, science is a religion. Not only can it be shown to advance from mystical experiences (and I can show this if needed), its social structure is identical in many respects to that in the dark ages.

It seems strange that what you call the "dark ages" applies only to Europe, "The West", and even there it is a very inaccurate description.

But during the period from 500 to after 1000 AD, science, astronomy, geodesy and mathematics were very actively pursued.
Part of the reason for was that they were convinced that the earth was a Globe.
That did present certain difficulties for the Muslims' "Qibla . . . . the direction that should be faced when a Muslim prays during salah prayers. It is fixed as the direction of the Kaaba in Mecca."

This lead to studies in geodesy and associated instrument making, astronomy and mathematics.
Look at the works of:

• The Indian mathematician Aryabhata (AD 476–550), was a pioneer of mathematical astronomy.
  He describes the earth as being spherical and that it rotates on its axis,
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
  Aryabhatiya also estimates the circumference of Earth, with an error of 1%, which is remarkable. Aryabhata gives the radii of the orbits of the planets in terms of the Earth-Sun distance as essentially their periods of rotation around the Sun. He also gave the correct explanation of lunar and solar eclipses and that the Moon shines by reflecting sunlight.
  See How Aryabhata got the earth's circumference right.
  
  
• Caliph al-Ma'mun: Around AD 830 he commissioned a group of astronomers led by Al-Khwarizmi to measure the distance from Tadmur (Palmyra) to Raqqa, in modern Syria. They found the cities to be separated by one degree of latitude and the distance between them to be 66 ²/₃ miles[clarification needed] and thus calculated the Earth's circumference to be 24,000 miles. Another estimate given was 56²/₃ Arabic miles per degree, which corresponds to 111.8 km per degree and a circumference of 40,248 km, very close to the currently modern values of 111.3 km per degree and 40,068 km circumference, respectively.
  
  
• The medieval Persian Abu Rayhan al-Biruni (973–1048): who around 1000 AD used the "dip angle to the horizon" to measure the curvature and hence the radius of the earth - and he got within 1% of the current value!
  This method used, dip angle to the horizon, even proves that the earth is not flat!
  

The idea of a Globe certainly is there in the early Islamic astronomers. You flat earthers are certainly the "new boys on the block".

There is no doubt in my mind, science is a religion. Not only can it be shown to advance from mystical experiences (and I can show this if needed), its social structure is identical in many respects to that in the dark ages.

I have to disagree with you to some extent - science is worse than religion!

Religion accepts the science that doesn't oppose it, but science totally rejects religion and faith.
God can't be measured or observed, so God does't exist to the scientific mind.
The same scientist never measured or observed love, but he for sure can't live without it, or deny its existence!

All holy books talked about the flood of Noah which covered the earth, but scientists simply denied that and called it a myth, regardless of all the fossils of sea fish found at high altitudes all over the world!

At 3000 m height, sea fish remains were found in the mountains in my country, all over the place, and in many other countries, as well > but, scientists deny that because it was simply mentioned in a 2000 year old book, supposedly from god!

Science is important in our lives and in shaping our future, but it is not the most important part of it!

Well, obviously eating meat does not necessarily lead to bigger brains, nobody claims that. It just provides more energy in less time than eating plants. Also elephants are more than 3 times bigger than we, aren't they?

So shouldn't they be 3 times as intelligent?
By the way; the limiting factor of human brain size is, as far as I know, thought to be birth because bigger brain = harder birth due to larger skull.

Yes, it is the growth of the cortex that is thought to have required a shift in our diet to proceed, because it is the part of our brain that needs so much energy.

Do you have any sources for your claims?

Anyway, whether eating meat was evolutionary required/beneficial for brain developement isn't an argument pro/contra meat eating anyway, because obviously nowdays we do no longer have problems with our energy managment (actually we do have, but in the other direction; just look at obesity rates...).

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 01:52:44 AM

Well, obviously eating meat does not necessarily lead to bigger brains, nobody claims that. It just provides more energy in less time than eating plants. Also elephants are more than 3 times bigger than we, aren't they?

So shouldn't they be 3 times as intelligent?

No.

By the way; the limiting factor of human brain size is, as far as I know, thought to be birth because bigger brain = harder birth due to larger skull.

This and the limited amount of energy available. Who knows, if an even bigger brain would have had a really huge selective advantage, populations may have evolved with a broader female pelvis.

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 01:52:44 AM

Yes, it is the growth of the cortex that is thought to have required a shift in our diet to proceed, because it is the part of our brain that needs so much energy.

Do you have any sources for your claims?

It is not "my claim", it is a neurological fact. You can easily verify that.

Warning tl;dr!

Anyway, whether eating meat was evolutionary required/beneficial for brain developement isn't an argument pro/contra meat eating anyway, because obviously nowdays we do no longer have problems with our energy managment (actually we do have, but in the other direction; just look at obesity rates...).

All of your discussion seems to have been on energy requirements, but that has very little to do with the original need for meat,  or at least animal products in the diet.

The big issue is the protein requirements necessary for all animal life. Proteins are made from amino acids and there are 20 amino acids needed by humans for heath development, including brain growth.

Essential and Non-Essential Amino Acids
Any time you consume protein, your body receives a source of amino acids. Your body uses combinations of 20 distinct amino acids to make up the protein in your cells. Dietary amino acids fall into two categories: non-essential amino acids, which your body can produce on its own, and essential amino acids, which your body cannot produce and therefore requires as part of your diet. Sources of protein that contain every essential amino acid are called complete proteins, while sources of protein deficient in one or more essential amino acids are incomplete proteins. Failure to eat enough of any essential amino acid prevents your body from making the protein it needs to function, leading to tissue breakdown.
Intake Recommendations
The specific amount of protein you need each day depends on your weight and activity level. Most people can calculate their required protein intake by multiplying their weight by 0.4, according to the Iowa State University Extension. For example, the average 150-pound individual would require 60 grams of protein daily. If you’re an athlete or you have a very active lifestyle, you might require more protein, up to 1.8 grams per pound. A registered dietitian can help you determine an appropriate protein intake, as well as design a diet plan to help you meet this goal.
Sources of Protein
If you follow a well-balanced and varied diet, you likely consume protein from a range of sources. Eggs, meat, dairy products, soy products and quinoa all represent sources of complete protein, while beans, lentils, nuts and whole grains contain incomplete protein. Eating a combination of foods to meet your daily protein intake helps ensure you’ll consume enough of each essential amino acid, especially if you consume some sources of complete protein. Choose lean proteins to limit your consumption of fat, and eat fatty sources of protein in moderation. Plant-based sources of protein typically contain little fat, or contain unsaturated fats that benefit your health. Fatty meats, like red meat, or full-fat dairy products contain significant amounts of saturated fat, which increases your risk of cardiovascular disease. Limit your intake of red meat, instead opting for leaner meats, such as skinless chicken or turkey breast.

From Why Are Proteins & Amino Acids Important to Life?

Energy requirements are easily ( too easily  ) supplied by carbohydrates found in (over) abundance in cereals, fruit and sugars.
And they are the big problem with modern diets, though excessive fats is right up there too.

Herbivore animals still need protein and mainly have to make it from grass and other vegetation. This is usually done by bacteria and fermentation in the gut.
Horses and their relatives have very ineffecient digestive systems and need to eat a great deal of grass, or a mixed artificial diet.

On the other hand ruminants (cows, sheep, goats and the like) have multiple chambers in their digestive system allowing them to re-chew their food (chew the cud) and pass it to another chamber for bacterial action and fermentation.
Carnivores of course, get their protein from meat sources, though many including bears are omnivores.
One strange animal is the panda bear. It is a true bear and has the short gut of a carnivore,  but lives on a very poor diet of almost entirely bamboo. As a result it must eat vast quantities to get sufficient nutrition.

Birds, like chickens, have a mixed diet including insects etc.

So animal products were certainly the easiest and most abundant source of protein and they provided all 20 amino acids necessary for life.

Now,  where does this leave the vegetarian of vegan?
Vegetarians commonly allow animal products such as dairy products and eggs.
Then there are certain, though not all, proteins in some plant products, such as legumes where nitrogen fixing bacteria in root nodules produce it, hence the popularity of soya products.

The vegan needs to be much more careful, but there are now ways of getting the required nutrients.

The critical nutrients are those 20 amino acids, which make up the various proteins and energy requirements are a minor matter.

As far as I have seen we would certainly be better off with less animal product in our diet and that would be better if it were the likes of fish and chicken and much less red meat.

No.

Exactely, that's my point. Seems like there is no (/very low) correlation between herbi/carnivore, animal size and intellectual capacities. So, saying that eating meat "triggered the evolution of the human brain" seems a rather weak hypothesis. I'm not denying that it might have been a factor, but my guess would be it wasn't the main one, rather a part of lot's of circumstancial events & random happenings.

It is not "my claim", it is a neurological fact. You can easily verify that.

I quickly googled and found no surces. I'd like to see sources for those claims:
From an evolutionary perspective, Hominids turned from a largely herbivore and fructivor habit as typical for primates (including the Australopithecines) to a hunting behaviour, and this is largely seen as having triggered the evolution of the human brain, because our brain needs much energy.

Yes, it is the growth of the cortex that is thought to have required a shift in our diet to proceed, because it is the part of our brain that needs so much energy.

@Rabinoz
All 9 essential amino acids can be found in non-animal products

Generally, patients on a plant-based diet are not at risk for protein deficiency.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/#b33-permj17_2p0061

Also intersting

In summary, vegetarians have consistently shown to have lower risks for cardiometabolic outcomes and some cancers across all three prospective cohorts of Adventists. Beyond meatless diets, further avoidance of eggs and dairy products may offer a mild additional benefit. Compared to lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets, vegan diets seem to provide some added protection against obesity, hypertension, type-2 diabetes; and cardiovascular mortality.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/

So animal products were certainly the easiest and most abundant source of protein and they provided all 20 amino acids necessary for life.

It rather is a balance between carnivore/herbivore animals; too much carnivore animals leads to fewer herbivores which then again leads to fewer carnivores because they don't have food, which means herbivore animal populations can regrow and so on. It's not like it always was that you enter a shop and have your meat prepared for you...
I'd even say long, long ago hunting (eating meat) was rather inefficient for humans, until we  discovered farming / making tools (which then would mean that we FIRST had important brain developement and THEN were able to eat more meat (which might helped further developement)).

As far as I have seen we would certainly be better off with less animal product in our diet and that would be better if it were the likes of fish and chicken and much less red meat.

I agree.

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 02:56:50 AM

No.

Exactely, that's my point. Seems like there is no (/very low) correlation between herbi/carnivore, animal size and intellectual capacities. So, saying that eating meat "triggered the evolution of the human brain" seems a rather weak hypothesis. I'm not denying that it might have been a factor, but my guess would be it wasn't the main one, rather a part of lot's of circumstancial events & random happenings.

.

Actually there is a certain correlation between carnivoric behaviour and intelligence, but that is only because much intelligence is required for hunting. As I said, eating meat does not make you smarter, it just provides much energy. Selective pressure will determine for what that energy is used for. In the case of humans it was used to increase brain size.

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 02:56:50 AM

It is not "my claim", it is a neurological fact. You can easily verify that.

I quickly googled and found no surces. I'd like to see sources for those claims:
From an evolutionary perspective, Hominids turned from a largely herbivore and fructivor habit as typical for primates (including the Australopithecines) to a hunting behaviour, and this is largely seen as having triggered the evolution of the human brain, because our brain needs much energy.

Yes, it is the growth of the cortex that is thought to have required a shift in our diet to proceed, because it is the part of our brain that needs so much energy.

Lurk moar.

Lurk moar.

So you don't want to provide sources.

"Actually there is a certain correlation between carnivoric behaviour and intelligence" again is something that needs a source.

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 04:59:21 AM

Lurk moar.

So you don't want to provide sources.

"Actually there is a certain correlation between carnivoric behaviour and intelligence" again is something that needs a source.

Hunting animals are usually more intelligent than their prey. That is a very trivial fact. But hunting of course is not the only reason for selective pressure towards more intelligence. Primates for example are intelligent, because they have to master a difficult environment (trees).

I know that all because I am so smart. My source is my incredibly high developed brain, energized by all sorts of meat including crocodiles and monkeys.

Here in Malaysia we are llike this: when we are driving and an animal passes the street, we step on the gas, run over and cook it.

Hunting animals are usually more intelligent than their prey. That is a very trivial fact.

Hunting: Recognize pray, hunt it, kill it, eat it.
Eating plants: Recognize food, eat it.
I think the hunting and killing part needs mostly phyiscal strenght (which is what we see in nature and can be called a "trivial fact").
"Advanced" hunting can be helpful but so can be "advanced" plant-eating; you know like hide your food somewhere for later, "farming" (in primitive ways) etc.

Also intelligence from the hunter could aswell lead to higher intelligence of the hunted; you know, only the smarter animals survive (=not get eaten).
I don't see any "trivial fact" here.

I know that all because I am so smart. My source is my incredibly high developed brain, energized by all sorts of meat including crocodiles and monkeys.

Well, might be you'd be able to see things more clearly and think further if you ate a bit fewer meat

Here in Malaysia we are llike this: when we are driving and an animal passes the street, we step on the gas, run over and cook it.

I wasn't expecting you to have shops to buy stuff in Malaysia anyway, so no big suprise here 

Quote from: John Davis on May 27, 2017, 06:37:36 PM

There is no doubt in my mind, science is a religion. Not only can it be shown to advance from mystical experiences (and I can show this if needed), its social structure is identical in many respects to that in the dark ages.

I have to disagree with you to some extent - science is worse than religion!

Religion accepts the science that doesn't oppose it, but science totally rejects religion and faith.

That is incorrect.
For one religion does not even except religion.
And science rejects only claims that are not possible in reality and that do not fit to the physical laws.

God can't be measured or observed, so God does't exist to the scientific mind.
The same scientist never measured or observed love, but he for sure can't live without it, or deny its existence!

But religion claim stuff that happened because of as a natural cause (like evolution) as an act of God.
That is where science tells us how it really happened.

All holy books talked about the flood of Noah which covered the earth, but scientists simply denied that and called it a myth, regardless of all the fossils of sea fish found at high altitudes all over the world!

Scientific explained how fossils can be found at that places.
But please show me where in the viking religion is told about Noah and the floor, also where in the religion of the major?
Do the Hindus also have the floor story?

At 3000 m height, sea fish remains were found in the mountains in my country, all over the place, and in many other countries, as well > but, scientists deny that because it was simply mentioned in a 2000 year old book, supposedly from god!

Like I said it is completely explained in the fossile record.
Please explain why are the fossils exactly sorted in the layers of stones according to the evolution.
If all animals are existed at the same time why are the fossils are not also mixed thru the layers?

Science is important in our lives and in shaping our future, but it is not the most important part of it!

Yes science is important in our life, but if we would only live by the rules of a religion, nothing would be developed.
As example we would have no vaccination against viral infections.
Every infection would be declared a act of God or that the person had done a sin and got punished by God.

Therefore is religion the real bad thing.
See alone how many people got killed by religion

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 05:28:17 AM

Hunting animals are usually more intelligent than their prey. That is a very trivial fact.

Hunting: Recognize pray, hunt it, kill it, eat it.
Eating plants: Recognize food, eat it.
I think the hunting and killing part needs mostly phyiscal strenght (which is what we see in nature and can be called a "trivial fact").
"Advanced" hunting can be helpful but so can be "advanced" plant-eating; you know like hide your food somewhere for later, "farming" (in primitive ways) etc.

Also intelligence from the hunter could aswell lead to higher intelligence of the hunted; you know, only the smarter animals survive (=not get eaten).
I don't see any "trivial fact" here.

Well, for me it is trivial. For you it is something impossible to figure out. Humans differ from each other.

Quote

I know that all because I am so smart. My source is my incredibly high developed brain, energized by all sorts of meat including crocodiles and monkeys.

Well, might be you'd be able to see things more clearly and think further if you ate a bit fewer meat

I don't think that you want to provide a source for this non-trivial claim...

Quote

Here in Malaysia we are llike this: when we are driving and an animal passes the street, we step on the gas, run over and cook it.

I wasn't expecting you to have shops to buy stuff in Malaysia anyway, so no big suprise here 

We do, but they are all run by Chinese and they only sell ink paintings and unicorn powder. Stuff like that, you know.

Quote from: User324 on May 28, 2017, 05:40:41 AM

Well, might be you'd be able to see things more clearly and think further if you ate a bit fewer meat

I don't think that you want to provide a source for this non-trivial claim...

Nowdays sources are required for jokes? I think you're confusing things. Might be because you lack some vitamins, which you could get with eating more vegetables  (<-- hint: watch for smileys to spot jokes)

Well, for me it is trivial. For you it is something impossible to figure out. Humans differ from each other.

So, you can't logically explain your "trivial" claims nor provide any evidence or studies.
Might be they're not as "trivial" as you think they are and you're just simple minded and thus not able to think things through, so everything to you seems "trivial"? 

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 05:54:37 AM

Quote from: User324 on May 28, 2017, 05:40:41 AM

Well, might be you'd be able to see things more clearly and think further if you ate a bit fewer meat

I don't think that you want to provide a source for this non-trivial claim...

Nowdays sources are required for jokes? I think you're confusing things. Might be because you lack some vitamins, which you could get with eating more vegetables  (<-- hint: watch for smileys to spot jokes)

You mean like vitamin D most abundant in liver...wait, joke, right?

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 28, 2017, 05:54:37 AM

Well, for me it is trivial. For you it is something impossible to figure out. Humans differ from each other.

So, you can't logically explain your "trivial" claims nor provide any evidence or studies.
Might be they're not as "trivial" as you think they are and you're just simple minded and thus not able to think things through, so everything to you seems "trivial"? 

Let me guess...not a joke?

Let me guess...not a joke?

First part no, second part obviously yes.

You mean like vitamin D most abundant in liver...wait, joke, right?

What are you trying to tell me? I don't understand.

... I don't understand...

Jesus H. Christ. 

@Rabinoz
All 9 essential amino acids can be found in non-animal products

Quote

Generally, patients on a plant-based diet are not at risk for protein deficiency.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/#b33-permj17_2p0061

Sure, but where could any primitive society get such a varied plant based diet.
A healthy vegan diet is possible now but was simply not feasible even a century ago.

There is also vitamin B12 that a vegan diet in times past would have been totally absent lending to the weight that evolved to consume animals and their products.

Even today despite an abundance of food a typical vegan diet will fall short of B12 if not completely without supplementation.

Where's the beef?!


I'll take a Bacon Triple Cheeseburger over tofu any day!

Where's the beef?!


I'll take a Bacon Triple Cheeseburger over tofu any day!

   I remember that TV commercial long time ago - I think it was an Hardee's ad with the short old lady looking for the beefburger in between the bun! It was very funny...

The vegetarians I know are almost like religious zealots.    I don't know a single one who doesn't take vitamin supplements.   

I can understand that society today  is structured in such a way as to remove us from our food sources,  how many city dwellers could go out and slaughter a sheep or cow, and then know how dress the meat.   Not many I'd suspect.

The sunday roast chicken,  had to have it's head chopped off and then plucked and cleaned.    Can't say I ever enjoyed doing it, it was just another chore,  like chopping firewood or raking leaves.

Sunday roast chicken with stuffing, onions and gravy,  crispy roast potatoes and  sweet home grown peas and beans.    Nothing better.

Vegans can shove their tofu.
 

B12 is found in Comfrey.

Which isn't a food source if you believe in the tests designed to fail by the FDA

B12 is found in Comfrey.

Which isn't a food source if you believe in the tests designed to fail by the FDA

I think the whole point has been that a healthy vegetarian or vegan diet is now possible, but would have been quite impossible in most primitive societies.
This explains why meat and other sources of protein etc were so highly prized in those societies.

Quote from: Third3ye on May 30, 2017, 07:06:33 PM

B12 is found in Comfrey.

Which isn't a food source if you believe in the tests designed to fail by the FDA

I think the whole point has been that a healthy vegetarian or vegan diet is now possible, but would have been quite impossible in most primitive societies.
This explains why meat and other sources of protein etc were so highly prized in those societies.

Ahhh, I didn't read every post, much less in this page lol. I was just pointing that out. By the way can I get that list of 61 proof's you have in a PM? I tried sending you a PM but it didn't work? Idk..

Where's the beef?!


I'll take a Bacon Triple Cheeseburger over tofu any day!

I would vomit if either touched my lips, they are both processed man made defilers of the body that aim to suppress your sex drive and make you a docile and dumb.

The ball earth is a cage, and we are its unwitting cows being milked of our spirituality. Wake up. Your CELL phones and interNET and WEB are all there to CATCH you and keep you entranced.

The ball earth is a cage, and we are its unwitting cows being milked of our spirituality. Wake up. Your CELL phones and interNET and WEB are all there to CATCH you and keep you entranced.

Says the guy using the InterNET to reach this WEBsite. Are you also using a cell phone to do this so we can listen to your mooing?

Wake up!!!