Evolution

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Pezevenk

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2017, 09:24:27 AM »
Making a code that not only learns from its environment, but forms opinions on it as well, is excessively complex. I'm not sure if we will ever have that kind of tech.

Why?
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2017, 10:02:03 AM »

Um, your also diving in deep on this subject so..
You should get a pet, when an animal has all of their needs taken care of, like us, they start having lives that aren't dictated by instincts that are there to keep them alive. They are very interesting to watch. Not to mention the fact that lots of animals have dreams. I'm not sure how something with no consciousness can have a dream. What would be the point?
Also we are animals, so be more specific when you say animals are subject to instincts.

Oh, I love animals – pets in particular!

I had an Alaskan Husky once, when I was in college – pets in general are wonderful companions and fun to be around, especially with the kids.

Instincts, intelligence, dreaming, self and environmental awareness are properties all sentient beings possess, including animals.

The misconception of the term consciousness had led people to think and believe it’s something we were born with or maybe a genetic property and trait!

Consciousness in short is creating the “god” in us – the highest state and peak of our awareness - the faith that gives balance to our lives, that makes us appreciate our values and properties, and how to put them into action for our benefit and the benefit of the all.

Consciousness is developed and achieved when we become the judges of our actions and behavior, which could negatively affect us and others around us if not under control.

Consciousness can be reached when we use our intelligence in the development and the prosperity of mankind, and not in selfishness, in evilness and in the destruction of man and morals.

Would you call a criminal with intent a conscious man – would a murderer have a conscious?

Two wealthy men; one made his wealth from running an honest family business and hard work, and used it in good deed, and the other made it from theft and fraudulence, and used it in lechery, bawdiness and in satisfying his whims > whom should we say has developed a consciousness in his life?

You have to be aware of your state of a sentient being, in control of your instincts and the judge of your behavior and actions to reach the conscious state of mind!

Could animals reach that state > I don’t think so!
Ah, I didn't realize we were talking about a conscious like Jiminy Cricket. My idea of consciousness being aware and able to process one's surroundings. Are we talking about animal's ability to feel guilt and know they are harming their surroundings and try to refrain from it? Because animals have been shown to feel guilt. You must have seen when a dog has trashed the house, and the owner comes home and the dog looks guilty. You may be able to say this is fear, but if it were fear the dog would attack or run away, but instead the dog just sits there looking sideways at there owner, with their head down.
Also, there were these elephants who's parents were killed by poachers, so they grew up not knowing what was right and wrong. They beat up and killed rhinos for no reason. So some researchers brought in some elder elephants and the elders got the younger ones in order immediately.
Again we return to empathy, giving us the want to help others. It is mostly taught and can be easily manipulated, but is nearly impossible to teach yourself it.

You're either not reading what I post or my English is not good enough to express what I mean!

Your idea of consciousness is EXACTLY what I've been talking about since the opening - to be aware and able to process is what consciousness all about - a criminal is a sentient being in the state of awareness of his surroundings, by he has NOT developed a conscious to judge what's right and what's wrong;he is fully aware of that, but he did not process it and analyzed the consequences of his acts if he goes in either direction of right and wrong.

We all know what's right and what's wrong - even some animals do to some extent, but only those with conscious that are able to analyze and process the consequences of our next decision - a rapist knows and is aware he's committing an awful act, but still do it because he has no conscious to judge his acts with.

Awareness is totally different from consciousness > awareness qualifies us to become conscious beings, and we have the free will to activate our consciousness and make it stronger; each time we make the right decision.
Right, but your idea of consciousness suggests that knowing what is right and wrong are a part of it. Knowing what right and wrong can be taught and are based on perspective. One person may think that Hitler was the most awful person ever, and another may think that what he was doing was right (I am not advocating that what Hitler did was right in any way, only pointing out different perspectives). Animals can be taught what is right and wrong, they can learn and understand the consequences of their actions. I don't understand why you think this is unique to humans.

No - knowing is part of awareness!
Making the right choice, taking the right decision and understanding the consequences is consciousness!

A circus lion; trained well, fed well & treated well from everybody around it, then all of the sudden turns back on its trainer and kills him! > Did its teaching, treatment and awareness prevent it from being subjective to its instinct and put it in complete understanding of the consequences of its action?

Only humans can do that and develop a conscious - and if they fail to achieve that throughout their lives, then they could become worse than animals and even worse than demons!

A man with no conscious is a graduate with no degree!
The circus lion does not think what it is doing is wrong. It is part of its survival and what it is doing is right. You can say that this is not knowing what is right and wrong, but the lion would say otherwise.
Also the examples of animals you left out, that saved their owners from fires, protected them from other animals and sometimes people.
Right and wrong is completely based on perspective, it is part of survival. We say that what the lion does is wrong because it keeps us alive. The lion says what it does is right to keep it alive.
If having a conscience is a God given ability, then why does it need to be taught by other humans? Its because the difference between good and bad is subjective.
Also I'm not sure your using the correct definition of consciousness:
conscious
ˈkɒnʃəs/
adjective
    1.
    aware of and responding to one's surroundings.
    "although I was in pain, I was conscious"
    synonyms:   aware, awake, wide awake, compos mentis, alert, responsive, reactive, feeling, sentient More
    "the patient was barely conscious"

    2.
    having knowledge of something.
    "we are conscious of the extent of the problem"

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Babushka

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2017, 01:38:43 PM »
Making a code that not only learns from its environment, but forms opinions on it as well, is excessively complex. I'm not sure if we will ever have that kind of tech.

Why?

Because this type of technology would be essentially programming a brain, which I don't think we are able to do yet. And if we end up doing it, robots that think for themselves could be dangerous, and end in a matrix-type scenario or worse.
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TotesReptilian

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2017, 01:46:46 PM »
Making a code that not only learns from its environment, but forms opinions on it as well, is excessively complex. I'm not sure if we will ever have that kind of tech.

Why?

Because this type of technology would be essentially programming a brain, which I don't think we are able to do yet. And if we end up doing it, robots that think for themselves could be dangerous, and end in a matrix-type scenario or worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network

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Pezevenk

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2017, 01:47:31 PM »
Making a code that not only learns from its environment, but forms opinions on it as well, is excessively complex. I'm not sure if we will ever have that kind of tech.

Why?

Because this type of technology would be essentially programming a brain, which I don't think we are able to do yet. And if we end up doing it, robots that think for themselves could be dangerous, and end in a matrix-type scenario or worse.

You say you don't think we're able to do that yet. I agree. But that's not what you said originally, you said that you don't think we'll ever have that tech.
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Babushka

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2017, 02:21:44 PM »
Yes, because in the big picture, I wasn't sure humanity would be able to attain that due to other priorities for money and research
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Pezevenk

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2017, 02:54:24 PM »
Yes, because in the big picture, I wasn't sure humanity would be able to attain that due to other priorities for money and research

There are (hopefully) many milleniums left for humanity to develop. That's a lot of time.
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Babushka

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2017, 03:34:47 AM »
Surely that is a large amount of time, but also, many things can change throughout that period. Another world war, depletion of natural resources, raising of the ocean, etc. can all impact the ability to do scientific research on coding a true robotic brain. Suddenly, funding sciences may not be a priority anymore.
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deadsirius

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2017, 08:46:55 AM »
Some interesting takes on the idea of consciousness that I've read or thought about myself--all are things humans do that other animals do not:

1.  The ability to "think about thought".  This leads into the ability to think in the hypothetical.  We are the only species that can make decisions based on what could happen, as opposed to just what is happening.  Perhaps more tragically we are the only ones who can be afraid of things that might happen to us.

2.  This requires a different kind of headspace--thinking in hypotheticals--and I think it is also closely tied into language.  Consciousness seems to be in many ways a semiotic system.  We can attach symbols (or words, or any given image or concept) to a web of other things.  Have you ever tried to go about life without "talking to yourself" in your head?  It is basically impossible.  We need language to process thought on the level of consciousness.  (The Bicameral Mind theory mentioned in 'Westworld', though not entirely taken seriously, has a fascinating take on this wherein ancient man supposedly literally did not understand that the voice in their head was their own--the running verbal thought processes were taken to be "commands" from an outside entity...i.e. "gods".  Again, it's not a very accepted theory but it shows the extent to which internal monologue is key to the idea of consciousness).

3.  From this we branch out into the idea of "meaning".  That anything can "mean" something else.  I read somewhere that "man is doomed to context".  Context is also a key aspect of consciousness.  Nothing we do or experience is isolated--it is all inescapably tied into the semiotic web of "meaning" that we internalize over our lives.  Further, the contextual nature of our awareness grounds us as no other animal in a place and time.  We are the only ones who know that there was a world before us, and that there will be a world after us.  We are the only ones who know that we will die.  I believe that even an animal that is running for its life from a predator does not "know" why it's doing so, or is aware that it is about to die or what that means.  It is a base fear response.

Animals, and very small children, live in a context-free existence.  Children eventually grow out of it.  Incidentally, if you read the book of Genesis as a metaphorical treatment of this process, it is incredibly fascinating.  I.e. when God says "eat not of that tree (of knowledge) for in that day  you shall surely die"...it is not that they literally die, it is that they become aware that they will die, thus understanding as no other animal does that their experience is not the totality of reality.

Incidentally, it's also telling that God's first task for Adam was to name all of the animals--in other words, to begin to create that sign system I referred to before.


Just some things I have thought about on the subject...consciousness perhaps can never be fully understood but I like to get these blurry glimpses at it.

As for evolution--I think it's pretty undeniable.


Edit--just a quick note on Koko the gorilla.  Her accomplishments have been mostly accepted to have been "embellished" at the very least.  In any case, I do not believe for a second that she could understand who or what Robin Williams was, or that he had died, or what that would mean/
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 08:49:57 AM by deadsirius »
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #99 on: May 08, 2017, 08:58:47 AM »
1.  The ability to "think about thought".  This leads into the ability to think in the hypothetical.  We are the only species that can make decisions based on what could happen, as opposed to just what is happening.  Perhaps more tragically we are the only ones who can be afraid of things that might happen to us.
I'm sure that's bs. What makes you think that animals are not making predictions? How would it even work if animals were not making predictions?!
I'm sure aswell that animals can be afraid of things that might happen to them.

Edit
Quote
It is a base fear response.
It's the same with humans. We have no idea, what death means, we just imagine something (based on our believes).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 09:01:21 AM by User324 »
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Babushka

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #100 on: May 08, 2017, 10:37:40 AM »
Animals have the innate ability to be afraid of things, but they surely aren't aware that the world will end and everybody will die. Only humans understand that.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #101 on: May 10, 2017, 09:21:01 AM »
Very interesting conversations going on here, but we are getting a bit off topic. Does anyone have questions regarding the evidence supporting evolution?

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Cartog

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2017, 06:02:00 PM »
That question on the first page "Why is there only one single intelligent life form on this planet?" really assumes too much. 
Shaved apes do not count as an intelligent life form.
But keep banging those rocks together, boys, and someday the monolith will show up in our midst.

If this planet is flat, is it possible that there are entirely unfamiliar life forms (including maybe an intelligent one) living beyond The Edge, along the sides of the planet?

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2017, 06:44:15 PM »

I already pointed this out earlier in this thread....



From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_genome_project
Quote
Human and chimpanzee chromosomes are very similar. The primary difference is that humans have one fewer pair of chromosomes than do other great apes. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and other great apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes. In the human evolutionary lineage, two ancestral ape chromosomes fused at their telomeres, producing human chromosome

Also, quite frankly, you don't get something as complex as a human being or any other plant or animal just 'pop' into existence someday. Every living thing started off as a single cell which over the billions of years developed into more and more complex organisms and took many divergent paths.

It is reasonable to assume that what we know of as human beings, diverged from a 'lower' ape. In fact, many of us share a small amount of our DNA from Neanderthals. With millions of years of reproduction and introduction of new DNA into gene pools and mutations why couldn't a new kind of species branch off from another?

Og but that's right. Plenty of people who don't believe in evolution believe in the 'Young Earth Theory' where the entire universe is only 6000 years old and Earth just went 'poof!' out of nowhere. Yep, real logic in that theory over the one of evolution!  ;D

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disputeone

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2017, 07:24:46 PM »
Earth just went 'poof!' out of nowhere. Yep, real logic in that theory

To be fair the Big Bang Theory is pretty much exactly that. Just replace "earth" with "everything."
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 07:27:05 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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boydster

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2017, 07:38:43 PM »
The big bang theory can really only be dependable back to about 380,000 years after the "bang" since that is the earliest detectable information (CMB). Anything earlier than that had to be inferred by making a educated guess - basically running a simulation of how things unfolded afterwards, but in reverse. Anyone who tells you they know exactly what happened before that probably also has a bridge for sale. Which also has parallels to evolution, I guess... In both cases, the beginning is still a mystery, but the aftermath is pretty traceable.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2017, 07:53:40 PM »
But even with the Big Bang, for many millions of years the universe started out as a Hydrogen/Helium soup. To get the heavier elements required stars to be born, live and die. To get all the things we see today that aren't Hydrogen or Helium was a long process that took billions of years.

There are 'plausible' theories that the universe could 'come from nothing' if you throw words like 'quantum' around lol but there is nothing that could explain how you could get an entire planet with a diverse flora/fauna out of nothingness

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disputeone

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2017, 08:02:14 PM »
Of course, but where all the laws and materials that built our universe came from is still a bit of a mystery.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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boydster

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2017, 08:15:44 PM »
I find the mystery more exciting than assuming "God did it", because it leaves so much more to explore. And if it turns out God DID do it, finding a way to arrive at that conclusion based on fact and observation would be pretty monumental.

Almost everything mankind has attributed to a god because it seemed magical at one time has been found to have a natural explanation (natural meaning it can be explained by rules that govern the universe; nothing supernatural required). I'm reasonably confident abiogenesis will be found to have a natural mechanism that could have played out resulting in the diversity of life we see today. If there is a god, I think it would make sense that the beginning of the universe (or multiverse) would be where it showed it's hand. And I wouldn't assert that it didn't go down like that. But I also wouldn't assume it.

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disputeone

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2017, 08:29:20 PM »
Of course.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things

Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations

These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2017, 04:56:20 AM »
But even with the Big Bang, for many millions of years the universe started out as a Hydrogen/Helium soup. To get the heavier elements required stars to be born, live and die. To get all the things we see today that aren't Hydrogen or Helium was a long process that took billions of years.

There are 'plausible' theories that the universe could 'come from nothing' if you throw words like 'quantum' around lol but there is nothing that could explain how you could get an entire planet with a diverse flora/fauna out of nothingness

Out of all the questions about origins, how the earth was formed is the easiest, at least in broad terms.

Stuff like how the universe was formed and why it even exists are unanswered, even in broad terms.
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Cartog

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #111 on: May 18, 2017, 07:12:48 PM »
Evolution tells us that at some future date, although it cannot be predicted with any precision, an intelligent life form can be expected to appear on this planet.   Until then we'll just keep flinging our turds at each other.

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #112 on: May 18, 2017, 09:42:05 PM »
Evolution tells us that at some future date, although it cannot be predicted with any precision, an intelligent life form can be expected to appear on this planet.   Until then we'll just keep flinging our turds at each other.
If you think that, you do not understand evolution.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #113 on: July 08, 2017, 06:55:22 PM »
Evolution is fact. It is only called theory in the sense that anything we know could not be true, however it is a true scientific theory as it is open to question and yet has not been disproved. I am willing to answer any questions you have on this topic.

Cool. Been awhile since I've been in one of these. If evolution is true, then how come we find fossils that supposedly evolved later from another animal below the actual animal it supposedly evolved from in the geologic column.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #114 on: July 09, 2017, 02:23:59 AM »
Evolution is fact. It is only called theory in the sense that anything we know could not be true, however it is a true scientific theory as it is open to question and yet has not been disproved. I am willing to answer any questions you have on this topic.

Cool. Been awhile since I've been in one of these. If evolution is true, then how come we find fossils that supposedly evolved later from another animal below the actual animal it supposedly evolved from in the geologic column.
Are you trolling or just dumb?


Well, gun as profile pic; so you're most likely 'murican and thus the second assumption is probably correct.
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TotesReptilian

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #115 on: July 09, 2017, 10:01:20 AM »
Evolution is fact. It is only called theory in the sense that anything we know could not be true, however it is a true scientific theory as it is open to question and yet has not been disproved. I am willing to answer any questions you have on this topic.

Cool. Been awhile since I've been in one of these. If evolution is true, then how come we find fossils that supposedly evolved later from another animal below the actual animal it supposedly evolved from in the geologic column.

An example would be nice.

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FalseProphet

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #116 on: July 09, 2017, 10:08:43 AM »
Evolution is fact. It is only called theory in the sense that anything we know could not be true, however it is a true scientific theory as it is open to question and yet has not been disproved. I am willing to answer any questions you have on this topic.

Cool. Been awhile since I've been in one of these. If evolution is true, then how come we find fossils that supposedly evolved later from another animal below the actual animal it supposedly evolved from in the geologic column.

An example would be nice.

Maybe he refers to distortions due to mountain formation. By that process older layers can end up above newer ones. Creationists often qucite such examples as proof against evolution.

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InFlatEarth

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #117 on: July 22, 2017, 03:01:52 AM »
Evolution is fact. It is only called theory in the sense that anything we know could not be true, however it is a true scientific theory as it is open to question and yet has not been disproved. I am willing to answer any questions you have on this topic.

Evolution is a religion, not a science.

It was created by the devil to trick man to defy GOD.

What did the snake say to Eve, if you eat the fruit, you will become GOD. In other words, you will evolve into a GOD. It is amazing that the historical book of the Bible was written centuries before the idea of evolution came up, and it describes the same pattern as back in the garden of Eden.

What does evolution say, that we will become better and better as time passes, The only difference is now the devil added time to the equation,

To simply dismiss the concept of God as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself.

My experiences with science led me to God.

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boydster

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2017, 04:25:26 AM »
No. Just no. A person does not evolve into anything. You aren't using the word correctly. And evolution says nothing about becoming better and better. It is simply change over time. You may want to spend more time understanding the concept before dismissing it for reasons that are disconnected from reality.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #119 on: July 22, 2017, 04:30:48 AM »
Evolution is fact. It is only called theory in the sense that anything we know could not be true, however it is a true scientific theory as it is open to question and yet has not been disproved. I am willing to answer any questions you have on this topic.

Evolution is a religion, not a science.

It was created by the devil to trick man to defy GOD.

What did the snake say to Eve, if you eat the fruit, you will become GOD. In other words, you will evolve into a GOD. It is amazing that the historical book of the Bible was written centuries before the idea of evolution came up, and it describes the same pattern as back in the garden of Eden.

What does evolution say, that we will become better and better as time passes, The only difference is now the devil added time to the equation,

You really seem to not understand anything.
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