Evolution

Quote from: TotesReptilian on May 03, 2017, 08:49:49 PM

Guys... it was a joke...

I was trying to point out the difficulty of scientifically studying the idea of consciousness/sentience/awareness. How can we say that an animal is or isn't self aware when we can't even be sure humans other than ourselves are self aware. How would you test for it?

It's fun to discuss, but it isn't very useful as an argument for or against evolution.

That's akin to saying although we can see and measure the suns orbit we can't prove it's up there.

Actually it's behind a cloud now, I will hazard the assumption it's still there even though I can't see it directly atm.

I don't know.  Sounds suspiciously similar to something one of those qualia hoarding humans might say to distract the p-zombies.

Quote from: Physical Experimenter on May 03, 2017, 06:46:05 AM

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 02, 2017, 11:46:06 AM

Quote from: User324 on May 02, 2017, 10:05:43 AM

Quote from: Babyhighspeed on May 02, 2017, 08:39:49 AM

Being able to recognize ones self in a mirror ( which a dolphin supposedly can) is much different that being sentient or "self aware".

@Bhs and @Hannibal
How would you guys define "sentient" and "consciousness"?
IF all our thoughts etc. were created in our brain by neural cells - would consciousness be possible?

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, and to have subjective experiences. > Awareness is then developed - sense data can be confirmed by a being without necessarily implying understanding. > Consciousness – an ignited, robust, internally stable awareness of one's own sense of values derived through abstract thought processes that are capable of adapting to and integrating with functionally similar processes in a wider range.

Reaching that level of awareness, one have become a creator of his own consciousness – you are no longer just a sentient being – you have evolved to have become a conscious being; capable of processing your experiences and not being subjective to it.

Instincts are God given abilities to all sentient beings to give them awareness, while consciousness is our acceptance and appreciation to what God has given us of abilities and values!

How do you know that other animals aren't conscious? Remember Koko? The gorilla that was taught how to speak sign language, not just copy hand movements, but actually learn the language and use it. She knows up to 1000 words and can speak at the level of a 3 year old child. She can process her surrounding and make decisions on what she wants to say to her caregivers. Her first sign she used was "queen" because she knew that she was getting more special attention than any of the other gorillas. She even became sad when she was told of Robin William's death, as she remembered the time they had met.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/koko-the-talking-gorilla-sign-language-francine-patterson/402307/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2723584/She-extremely-sad-Sign-language-gorilla-Koko-close-tears-following-news-Robin-Williams-death-13-years-video-captured-two-fast-friends.html
(Sorry for only giving two sources, I'm sure if you care you can find many more examples)

Oh, I've seen many intelligent creatures in aqua park - they even taught them to kiss you on the cheek! 

But, what does that have to do with consciousness?

The "Animal Consciousness" debate has been going on for ever, and different scientists have different opinions on the subject!

A New York University neuro-scientist Joe LeDoux, one of the most vocal of a group of researchers who think non-human animal consciousness isn’t relevant in experiments or even scientifically resolvable, once said, “The basic idea is about how many assumptions scientists are willing to make about consciousness.”

To dive in a deep field where famous scientists and philosophers have failed to conclude, is like blowing in a hollow object!

The way I see it, though;-

Animals are subjective to their instincts, and follow a law that secures their needs.
Humans can evolve and develop a conscious that can free them from being subjective to their instincts, and become in control of their needs, feelings and behavior.

When a man doesn't have control over his sexual and feeding activities > they say he's an animal or eats like a pig!
When a person doesn't have control over his life; he lives in chaos, which leads to destruction. - How can you develop a consciousness in a chaotic state of awareness?

Consciousness is the highest state of awareness and without consciousness we'd go back to the jungle and live with the animals by our instincts and by the jungle law!

I personally have a dog, and I've seen the innate instincts that would have kept him alive in the wild fade away quickly as we provided his every need. He now knows where the food is kept, and tries to constantly get at it.

In addition, the second somebody fed him food off the counter, he knew what was up there, and begs to try and get it.

Which, I suppose, brings me back to the point that you can only measure cognitive activity for the current moment, because brains are not static. They evolve and change as the species does, so data collected one day wouldn't be relevant, say, one year later when the species has learned more from its surroundings and how to react to it.

Um, your also diving in deep on this subject so..
You should get a pet, when an animal has all of their needs taken care of, like us, they start having lives that aren't dictated by instincts that are there to keep them alive. They are very interesting to watch. Not to mention the fact that lots of animals have dreams. I'm not sure how something with no consciousness can have a dream. What would be the point?
Also we are animals, so be more specific when you say animals are subject to instincts.

Quote from: Physical Experimenter on May 04, 2017, 01:31:06 AM

Um, your also diving in deep on this subject so..
You should get a pet, when an animal has all of their needs taken care of, like us, they start having lives that aren't dictated by instincts that are there to keep them alive. They are very interesting to watch. Not to mention the fact that lots of animals have dreams. I'm not sure how something with no consciousness can have a dream. What would be the point?
Also we are animals, so be more specific when you say animals are subject to instincts.

Oh, I love animals – pets in particular!

I had an Alaskan Husky once, when I was in college – pets in general are wonderful companions and fun to be around, especially with the kids.

Instincts, intelligence, dreaming, self and environmental awareness are properties all sentient beings possess, including animals.

The misconception of the term consciousness had led people to think and believe it’s something we were born with or maybe a genetic property and trait!

Consciousness in short is creating the “god” in us – the highest state and peak of our awareness - the faith that gives balance to our lives, that makes us appreciate our values and properties, and how to put them into action for our benefit and the benefit of the all.

Consciousness is developed and achieved when we become the judges of our actions and behavior, which could negatively affect us and others around us if not under control.

Consciousness can be reached when we use our intelligence in the development and the prosperity of mankind, and not in selfishness, in evilness and in the destruction of man and morals.

Would you call a criminal with intent a conscious man – would a murderer have a conscious?

Two wealthy men; one made his wealth from running an honest family business and hard work, and used it in good deed, and the other made it from theft and fraudulence, and used it in lechery, bawdiness and in satisfying his whims > whom should we say has developed a consciousness in his life?

You have to be aware of your state of a sentient being, in control of your instincts and the judge of your behavior and actions to reach the conscious state of mind!

Could animals reach that state > I don’t think so!

Not to mention the fact that lots of animals have dreams. I'm not sure how something with no consciousness can have a dream. What would be the point?
Also we are animals, so be more specific when you say animals are subject to instincts.

Would you call a criminal with intent a conscious man – would a murderer have a conscious?

I suppose being "self-aware" is up to interpretation, whether it's simply what a species is able to do, or what it feels or thinks. And what's to say if even humans are truly self-aware? How would we know if we only have less intelligent species to compare ourselves to?

if you consider the brain as the cause of our consciousness; theoretically this could mean we can create consciousness, in a way that humans possess it, in robots.

Quote from: User324 on May 05, 2017, 04:10:20 AM

if you consider the brain as the cause of our consciousness; theoretically this could mean we can create consciousness, in a way that humans possess it, in robots.

I think it's impossible personally.

Do you know how and why captcha works?

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 04, 2017, 04:23:31 AM

Quote from: Physical Experimenter on May 04, 2017, 01:31:06 AM

Um, your also diving in deep on this subject so..
You should get a pet, when an animal has all of their needs taken care of, like us, they start having lives that aren't dictated by instincts that are there to keep them alive. They are very interesting to watch. Not to mention the fact that lots of animals have dreams. I'm not sure how something with no consciousness can have a dream. What would be the point?
Also we are animals, so be more specific when you say animals are subject to instincts.

Oh, I love animals – pets in particular!

I had an Alaskan Husky once, when I was in college – pets in general are wonderful companions and fun to be around, especially with the kids.

Instincts, intelligence, dreaming, self and environmental awareness are properties all sentient beings possess, including animals.

The misconception of the term consciousness had led people to think and believe it’s something we were born with or maybe a genetic property and trait!

Consciousness in short is creating the “god” in us – the highest state and peak of our awareness - the faith that gives balance to our lives, that makes us appreciate our values and properties, and how to put them into action for our benefit and the benefit of the all.

Consciousness is developed and achieved when we become the judges of our actions and behavior, which could negatively affect us and others around us if not under control.

Consciousness can be reached when we use our intelligence in the development and the prosperity of mankind, and not in selfishness, in evilness and in the destruction of man and morals.

Would you call a criminal with intent a conscious man – would a murderer have a conscious?

Two wealthy men; one made his wealth from running an honest family business and hard work, and used it in good deed, and the other made it from theft and fraudulence, and used it in lechery, bawdiness and in satisfying his whims > whom should we say has developed a consciousness in his life?

You have to be aware of your state of a sentient being, in control of your instincts and the judge of your behavior and actions to reach the conscious state of mind!

Could animals reach that state > I don’t think so!

Ah, I didn't realize we were talking about a conscious like Jiminy Cricket. My idea of consciousness being aware and able to process one's surroundings. Are we talking about animal's ability to feel guilt and know they are harming their surroundings and try to refrain from it? Because animals have been shown to feel guilt. You must have seen when a dog has trashed the house, and the owner comes home and the dog looks guilty. You may be able to say this is fear, but if it were fear the dog would attack or run away, but instead the dog just sits there looking sideways at there owner, with their head down.
Also, there were these elephants who's parents were killed by poachers, so they grew up not knowing what was right and wrong. They beat up and killed rhinos for no reason. So some researchers brought in some elder elephants and the elders got the younger ones in order immediately.
Again we return to empathy, giving us the want to help others. It is mostly taught and can be easily manipulated, but is nearly impossible to teach yourself it.

I think your idea about consciousness makes 0 sense.

As I said: Consciousness and free will include the choice between good and bad, what decides which track you go are your morals (+some other stuff like laws (which are based on moral tho)).

Consciousness is such a broad and undefined topic that it truly is mostly up to opinion. I'm willing to accept any answer, and I wouldn't be going around telling people their opinions make 0 sense.

Quote from: Physical Experimenter on May 04, 2017, 05:09:37 AM

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 04, 2017, 04:23:31 AM

Quote from: Physical Experimenter on May 04, 2017, 01:31:06 AM

Um, your also diving in deep on this subject so..
You should get a pet, when an animal has all of their needs taken care of, like us, they start having lives that aren't dictated by instincts that are there to keep them alive. They are very interesting to watch. Not to mention the fact that lots of animals have dreams. I'm not sure how something with no consciousness can have a dream. What would be the point?
Also we are animals, so be more specific when you say animals are subject to instincts.

Oh, I love animals – pets in particular!

I had an Alaskan Husky once, when I was in college – pets in general are wonderful companions and fun to be around, especially with the kids.

Instincts, intelligence, dreaming, self and environmental awareness are properties all sentient beings possess, including animals.

The misconception of the term consciousness had led people to think and believe it’s something we were born with or maybe a genetic property and trait!

Consciousness in short is creating the “god” in us – the highest state and peak of our awareness - the faith that gives balance to our lives, that makes us appreciate our values and properties, and how to put them into action for our benefit and the benefit of the all.

Consciousness is developed and achieved when we become the judges of our actions and behavior, which could negatively affect us and others around us if not under control.

Consciousness can be reached when we use our intelligence in the development and the prosperity of mankind, and not in selfishness, in evilness and in the destruction of man and morals.

Would you call a criminal with intent a conscious man – would a murderer have a conscious?

Two wealthy men; one made his wealth from running an honest family business and hard work, and used it in good deed, and the other made it from theft and fraudulence, and used it in lechery, bawdiness and in satisfying his whims > whom should we say has developed a consciousness in his life?

You have to be aware of your state of a sentient being, in control of your instincts and the judge of your behavior and actions to reach the conscious state of mind!

Could animals reach that state > I don’t think so!

Ah, I didn't realize we were talking about a conscious like Jiminy Cricket. My idea of consciousness being aware and able to process one's surroundings. Are we talking about animal's ability to feel guilt and know they are harming their surroundings and try to refrain from it? Because animals have been shown to feel guilt. You must have seen when a dog has trashed the house, and the owner comes home and the dog looks guilty. You may be able to say this is fear, but if it were fear the dog would attack or run away, but instead the dog just sits there looking sideways at there owner, with their head down.
Also, there were these elephants who's parents were killed by poachers, so they grew up not knowing what was right and wrong. They beat up and killed rhinos for no reason. So some researchers brought in some elder elephants and the elders got the younger ones in order immediately.
Again we return to empathy, giving us the want to help others. It is mostly taught and can be easily manipulated, but is nearly impossible to teach yourself it.

You're either not reading what I post or my English is not good enough to express what I mean!

Your idea of consciousness is EXACTLY what I've been talking about since the opening - to be aware and able to process is what consciousness all about - a criminal is a sentient being in the state of awareness of his surroundings, by he has NOT developed a conscious to judge what's right and what's wrong;he is fully aware of that, but he did not process it and analyzed the consequences of his acts if he goes in either direction of right and wrong.

We all know what's right and what's wrong - even some animals do to some extent, but only those with conscious that are able to analyze and process the consequences of our next decision - a rapist knows and is aware he's committing an awful act, but still do it because he has no conscious to judge his acts with.

Awareness is totally different from consciousness > awareness qualifies us to become conscious beings, and we have the free will to activate our consciousness and make it stronger; each time we make the right decision.

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 06, 2017, 02:43:27 AM

Quote from: Physical Experimenter on May 04, 2017, 05:09:37 AM

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 04, 2017, 04:23:31 AM

Quote from: Physical Experimenter on May 04, 2017, 01:31:06 AM

Um, your also diving in deep on this subject so..
You should get a pet, when an animal has all of their needs taken care of, like us, they start having lives that aren't dictated by instincts that are there to keep them alive. They are very interesting to watch. Not to mention the fact that lots of animals have dreams. I'm not sure how something with no consciousness can have a dream. What would be the point?
Also we are animals, so be more specific when you say animals are subject to instincts.

Oh, I love animals – pets in particular!

I had an Alaskan Husky once, when I was in college – pets in general are wonderful companions and fun to be around, especially with the kids.

Instincts, intelligence, dreaming, self and environmental awareness are properties all sentient beings possess, including animals.

The misconception of the term consciousness had led people to think and believe it’s something we were born with or maybe a genetic property and trait!

Consciousness in short is creating the “god” in us – the highest state and peak of our awareness - the faith that gives balance to our lives, that makes us appreciate our values and properties, and how to put them into action for our benefit and the benefit of the all.

Consciousness is developed and achieved when we become the judges of our actions and behavior, which could negatively affect us and others around us if not under control.

Consciousness can be reached when we use our intelligence in the development and the prosperity of mankind, and not in selfishness, in evilness and in the destruction of man and morals.

Would you call a criminal with intent a conscious man – would a murderer have a conscious?

Two wealthy men; one made his wealth from running an honest family business and hard work, and used it in good deed, and the other made it from theft and fraudulence, and used it in lechery, bawdiness and in satisfying his whims > whom should we say has developed a consciousness in his life?

You have to be aware of your state of a sentient being, in control of your instincts and the judge of your behavior and actions to reach the conscious state of mind!

Could animals reach that state > I don’t think so!

Ah, I didn't realize we were talking about a conscious like Jiminy Cricket. My idea of consciousness being aware and able to process one's surroundings. Are we talking about animal's ability to feel guilt and know they are harming their surroundings and try to refrain from it? Because animals have been shown to feel guilt. You must have seen when a dog has trashed the house, and the owner comes home and the dog looks guilty. You may be able to say this is fear, but if it were fear the dog would attack or run away, but instead the dog just sits there looking sideways at there owner, with their head down.
Also, there were these elephants who's parents were killed by poachers, so they grew up not knowing what was right and wrong. They beat up and killed rhinos for no reason. So some researchers brought in some elder elephants and the elders got the younger ones in order immediately.
Again we return to empathy, giving us the want to help others. It is mostly taught and can be easily manipulated, but is nearly impossible to teach yourself it.

You're either not reading what I post or my English is not good enough to express what I mean!

Your idea of consciousness is EXACTLY what I've been talking about since the opening - to be aware and able to process is what consciousness all about - a criminal is a sentient being in the state of awareness of his surroundings, by he has NOT developed a conscious to judge what's right and what's wrong;he is fully aware of that, but he did not process it and analyzed the consequences of his acts if he goes in either direction of right and wrong.

We all know what's right and what's wrong - even some animals do to some extent, but only those with conscious that are able to analyze and process the consequences of our next decision - a rapist knows and is aware he's committing an awful act, but still do it because he has no conscious to judge his acts with.

Awareness is totally different from consciousness > awareness qualifies us to become conscious beings, and we have the free will to activate our consciousness and make it stronger; each time we make the right decision.

Right, but your idea of consciousness suggests that knowing what is right and wrong are a part of it. Knowing what right and wrong can be taught and are based on perspective. One person may think that Hitler was the most awful person ever, and another may think that what he was doing was right (I am not advocating that what Hitler did was right in any way, only pointing out different perspectives). Animals can be taught what is right and wrong, they can learn and understand the consequences of their actions. I don't understand why you think this is unique to humans.

Making the right choice, taking the right decision and understanding the consequences is consciousness!

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 06, 2017, 10:10:11 AM

Making the right choice, taking the right decision and understanding the consequences is consciousness!

That's bullshit again, you mix together "consciousness" with "moral".

Quote from: User324 on May 06, 2017, 11:02:57 AM

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 06, 2017, 10:10:11 AM

Making the right choice, taking the right decision and understanding the consequences is consciousness!

That's bullshit again, you mix together "consciousness" with "moral".

Again; learning morals in church and at home is part of awareness > applying them into your life is consciousness.
We all know what morals are, but not all go by them!

When you build a conscious, it becomes and acts like your defensive system - like a magnetic field around you that gives and attracts positiveness and rejects negativeness.

You are not born with it and you don't learn it > you create it inside you and it expands bigger.
It gives you wisdom - it opens up your third eye and you rely less on your physical senses when taking decisions and judging situations.

Conscious beings are enlightened beings.

Quote from: User324 on May 06, 2017, 11:02:57 AM

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 06, 2017, 10:10:11 AM

Making the right choice, taking the right decision and understanding the consequences is consciousness!

That's bullshit again, you mix together "consciousness" with "moral".

Again; learning morals in church and at home is part of awareness > applying them into your life is consciousness.
We all know what morals are, but not all go by them!

When you build a conscious, it becomes and acts like your defensive system - like a magnetic field around you that gives and attracts positiveness and rejects negativeness.

You are not born with it and you don't learn it > you create it inside you and it expands bigger.
It gives you wisdom - it opens up your third eye and you rely less on your physical senses when taking decisions and judging situations.

Conscious beings are enlightened beings.

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 06, 2017, 11:29:04 AM

Quote from: User324 on May 06, 2017, 11:02:57 AM

Quote from: Hannibaal on May 06, 2017, 10:10:11 AM

Making the right choice, taking the right decision and understanding the consequences is consciousness!

That's bullshit again, you mix together "consciousness" with "moral".

Again; learning morals in church and at home is part of awareness > applying them into your life is consciousness.
We all know what morals are, but not all go by them!

When you build a conscious, it becomes and acts like your defensive system - like a magnetic field around you that gives and attracts positiveness and rejects negativeness.

You are not born with it and you don't learn it > you create it inside you and it expands bigger.
It gives you wisdom - it opens up your third eye and you rely less on your physical senses when taking decisions and judging situations.

Conscious beings are enlightened beings.

Dude. You are confusing conscious with conscience.

Quote from: TotesReptilian on May 06, 2017, 03:45:30 PM

Dude. You are confusing conscious with conscience.

No I'm not! I know exactly what both words mean - its those that confuse awareness with consciousness that are wrong.

Your conscience is you - your identity that you have built in the conscious state.

You can't have a conscience just in the awareness state of mind. An animal has a self awareness and that of its surroundings, but it doesn't feel guilt and shame for its actions, because it didn't cross from the awareness state to the conscious state of mind.

With the intent to evolve from your state of awareness to a higher state of consciousness, you'd be building your conscious identity, which is your conscience.

Quote from: disputeone on May 05, 2017, 06:26:51 PM

Quote from: User324 on May 05, 2017, 04:10:20 AM

if you consider the brain as the cause of our consciousness; theoretically this could mean we can create consciousness, in a way that humans possess it, in robots.

I think it's impossible personally.

Do you know how and why captcha works?

More or less, yes. I though do not see that as a reason for why (full) AI/consciousness couldn't be possible.

Reasons why it though might be impossible are - in my opinon:
> Brain works different in comparision to rather static CPUs
Solution might be to "simulate" a brain, not actually build one.

> Brain is, due to long evolution, incredibly efficient. It might be generally impossible to replicate something like the human brain with computers, since it's not possible to achieve the same efficiency with something non-biological.

> Even if it was theoretically possible, it might just be impossible for us humans to do it, since it's just too complex.

Quantum computing might change things.

My point about captcha is even now we can't teach computers how to reason or be logical.

You could teach a computer what a chair is until it could recognise one, then tip the chair on its side and the computer has absolutely no idea what it is. This process can be repeated forever at the moment.

I can tell you this is a question mark.

?

Just from that you can tell me what this is.

¿

It's just a question mark rotated 180°.

Anything we want a computer to be able to do at the moment we have to program and script.

I do think it's possible for consiousness to exist, we're here after all. Probably just not possible for us to make it. Not saying we can't have very useful AI, I use gps all the time. I just don't believe we will be able to create consciousness. (Except for the old fashioned way.)

Anything we want a computer to be able to do at the moment we have to program and script.

Quote from: disputeone on May 06, 2017, 05:42:21 PM

Anything we want a computer to be able to do at the moment we have to program and script.