Conspiracy

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Conspiracy
« on: April 24, 2017, 11:56:16 AM »
Ok, the whole flat earth theory rests on one simple "theory".  That is that NASA and everybody else who say the world is a round, has to be lying to all of us.  If they are in fact not lying, then the earth is round, as NASA and every scientist in the world claims.  So FE believers, do you have any real evidence that NASA, other space agencies, and every country on earth is lying to us about the shape of the earth? Or will you just actually admit that you are all a bunch of trolls pulling our legs?

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Junker

  • 3739
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2017, 12:04:09 PM »
Ok, the whole flat earth theory rests on one simple "theory".  That is that NASA and everybody else who say the world is a round, has to be lying to all of us. 
False. Also, if you can't follow simple directions such as posting in the correct forum for a particular topic, there is not reason to take you seriously at all. Flat Earth General's description literally says to put conspiracy topics there.

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2017, 12:09:21 PM »
Ok, the whole flat earth theory rests on one simple "theory".  That is that NASA and everybody else who say the world is a round, has to be lying to all of us. 
False. Also, if you can't follow simple directions such as posting in the correct forum for a particular topic, there is not reason to take you seriously at all. Flat Earth General's description literally says to put conspiracy topics there.

I asked a question in flat earth debate, and I wanted to see a debate on the conspiracy.  If you don't want to play, go away.  I don't care.  I could care less if you take me seriously, from what I have read from you posts, I don't take you seriously either.  But I wouldn't expect anything else from a flat earth believer.  A snide response to a honest question, and actually, no worth-while response at all...

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Junker

  • 3739
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2017, 12:17:03 PM »
I asked a question in flat earth debate, and I wanted to see a debate on the conspiracy. 
Alternatively, you could try following simple directions.

If you don't want to play, go away.
No.

I don't care.  I could care less...

So you say you don't care, but then you say you could care less, implying that you obviously must care.

But I wouldn't expect anything else from a flat earth believer.
Where did I state my belief on earth's shape?


Anyway, in relation to your very lazy question in the OP, a simple answer would be that it wouldn't be a very good conspiracy if there was evidence of it. Also, your premise is flawed from the beginning. I can't help you with that. 

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2017, 12:23:27 PM »
I asked a question in flat earth debate, and I wanted to see a debate on the conspiracy. 
Alternatively, you could try following simple directions.

If you don't want to play, go away.
No.

I don't care.  I could care less...

So you say you don't care, but then you say you could care less, implying that you obviously must care.

But I wouldn't expect anything else from a flat earth believer.
Where did I state my belief on earth's shape?


Anyway, in relation to your very lazy question in the OP, a simple answer would be that it wouldn't be a very good conspiracy if there was evidence of it. Also, your premise is flawed from the beginning. I can't help you with that.

It appears you're taking this pretty seriously?

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2017, 12:30:07 PM »
Anyway, in relation to your very lazy question in the OP, a simple answer would be that it wouldn't be a very good conspiracy if there was evidence of it. Also, your premise is flawed from the beginning. I can't help you with that.
[/quote]

How is it flawed?  Either the earth is flat or it isn't.  If it is flat, then there is a giant conspiracy.  If it is round, than there is not.  Actually pretty simple. I am asking for some evidence of a conspiracy.  If there is no evidence, why do you believe that we are being lied to?  You claim my question is lazy, but you seem too lazy to actually put any thought into it.  Smart ass comments and brush offs.  Grow up! 

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Junker

  • 3739
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 12:41:46 PM »
How is it flawed? 
I would suggest maybe reading your own post again. It should come to you, but if you continue to struggle, I will do my best to help.

Either the earth is flat or it isn't. 
Yes.

If it is flat, then there is a giant conspiracy. 
Do you have any evidence to support your outlandish claim?

If it is round, than there is not. 
Irrelevant.

I am asking for some evidence of a conspiracy.
See above.

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2017, 12:49:56 PM »
How is it flawed? 
I would suggest maybe reading your own post again. It should come to you, but if you continue to struggle, I will do my best to help.

Either the earth is flat or it isn't. 
Yes.

If it is flat, then there is a giant conspiracy. 
Do you have any evidence to support your outlandish claim?

If it is round, than there is not. 
Irrelevant.

I am asking for some evidence of a conspiracy.
See above.

I would suggest lurking moar.

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Junker

  • 3739
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2017, 12:56:37 PM »
How is it flawed? 
I would suggest maybe reading your own post again. It should come to you, but if you continue to struggle, I will do my best to help.

Either the earth is flat or it isn't. 
Yes.

If it is flat, then there is a giant conspiracy. 
Do you have any evidence to support your outlandish claim?

If it is round, than there is not. 
Irrelevant.

I am asking for some evidence of a conspiracy.
See above.

I would suggest lurking moar.

That is excellent advice for the OP, especially given that they are a newer member. Well done!

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2017, 01:01:36 PM »
Sounds kinda simple what was said. For earth to be flat then the photos from NASA and other agencies are fake.

They have presented "proof" in the past by showing the video of a NASA rep saying " It's Photoshopped. It has to be"
They do not understand what exactly he is trying to say.

They also look at cloud formations and see duplicates.  I think that it has to do with how they piece photos together from a closer orbit.

The other claim is the photos changing from year to year.

I have not seen any good arguments with the Russian and Japanese photos.


Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2017, 01:12:23 PM »
NASA has developed giant lenses to distort the "setting" Sun so it appears to stay the same size and dip down as it recedes. (Haven't quite worked out how they keep the lenses up there and in line with every observer on Earth, but I will let you know!)

I do know that every time a ship is about to sell over the "horizon," NASA sails a submarine right up in front of it and deploys a huge mirror to hide the bottom of the ship and make it look like water. (They have a lot of submarines!)
"Science is real."
--They Might Be Giants

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2017, 01:19:24 PM »
NASA has developed giant lenses to distort the "setting" Sun so it appears to stay the same size and dip down as it recedes. (Haven't quite worked out how they keep the lenses up there and in line with every observer on Earth, but I will let you know!)

Ok, keep me posted.  I will wait anxiously!

I do know that every time a ship is about to sell over the "horizon," NASA sails a submarine right up in front of it and deploys a huge mirror to hide the bottom of the ship and make it look like water. (They have a lot of submarines!)

Great, finally an explanation.  I knew it. 

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Junker

  • 3739
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2017, 01:29:05 PM »
Sounds kinda simple what was said. For earth to be flat then the photos from NASA and other agencies are fake.

Yes, what was said was simple. It was also a non-sequitur.

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2017, 01:37:42 PM »
Sounds kinda simple what was said. For earth to be flat then the photos from NASA and other agencies are fake.

Yes, what was said was simple. It was also a non-sequitur.

First, you didn't like the question because apparently it is in the wrong forum.  Now you claim it is non-sequitur.  What other excuses do you want to give to avoid giving an answer?  And please explain how the question is non-sequitur?  Either the earth is flat or round.  If it is flat, NASA is lying about the shape.  If it it round, they are not. 

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Junker

  • 3739
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2017, 01:45:12 PM »
First, you didn't like the question because apparently it is in the wrong forum.
Incorrect, the question is fine. I was just pointing out to you that you should follow simple instructions.

Now you claim it is non-sequitur. 
It was always a non-sequitur. I was hoping you would go back and realize that for yourself, as I suggested you do. Alas, you either failed or refused to do so.

What other excuses do you want to give to avoid giving an answer?  +
I already gave an answer, friend.

And please explain how the question is non-sequitur? 
The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Either the earth is flat or round.
Those are two possibilities. Also, that isn't what you stated previously.

If it is flat, NASA is lying about the shape.
Do you have any evidence to support your outlandish claim?

If it it round, they are not.
You are saying there are literally no other possibilities. Nice critical thinking, friend...

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2017, 01:49:23 PM »
As a new poster, the best advice I can give is:
FEers will dodge dive and weave around any question they can't answer with a telescope, a toy boat and some water. And if that fails that simply claim cgi, so all lurking will give you is repeated occurrences of the above.

Oh and his post is perfectly fine here as it is a debate topic, so that should take priority over subject matter when choosing what board to post it on
"Religion is the opium of the people"
Karl Marx

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

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rabinoz

  • 22863
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2017, 01:55:07 PM »
Sounds kinda simple what was said. For earth to be flat then the photos from NASA and other agencies are fake.

Yes, what was said was simple. It was also a non-sequitur.
Looks kinda like a sphere to me.

DSCOVR EPIC 187_1003703_africa
   

Russian Satellite Photo (around midday) - December 2015
   

Himawari-8 20160705120000fd
Conspiracy? Are USA, Russia and Japan all in it - along with China and numerous other countries.
Quote from: the Wiki
Place of the Conspiracy in FET

The existence of 'The Conspiracy' is a consequence of the FET. Virtually no one begins with 'The Conspiracy' and develops a belief in the Flat Earth Theory. Flat Earthers starts with the knowledge that the earth is flat, as they believe that all the evidence which they are personally able to collect and verify confirms this fact. As a consequence all the evidence to the contrary, much of which they are unable to personally test/verify is viewed as being false. The existence of such a huge quantity of false information indicates the existence of the conspiracy.

Essentially the reasoning boils down to -
P1) If personally unverifiable evidence contradicts an obvious truth then the evidence is fabricated
P2) The FET (Flat Earth Theory) is an obvious truth
P3) There is personally unverifiable evidence that contradicts the FET
C1) The unverifiable evidence that contradicts the FET is fabricated evidence

P4) If there is large amounts of fabricated evidence then there must be a conspiracy to fabricate it
P5) There is a large amount of fabricated evidence (see C1)
C2) There must be a conspiracy to fabricate it.

Look at
"    P1) If personally unverifiable evidence contradicts an obvious truth then the evidence is fabricated
     P2) The FET (Flat Earth Theory) is an obvious truth"

Any "personally unverifiable evidence" that "contradicts an obvious truth then the evidence is fabricated" followed by
        "The FET (Flat Earth Theory) is an obvious truth"!

One simply comment, it is absolutely impossible for any one person or even a small group of (not very dedicated) investigators to determine the shape of the earth, the motion of the sun, moon planets and the stars and all other aspects of the earth.

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dutchy

  • 2366
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2017, 01:57:55 PM »
Ok, the whole flat earth theory rests on one simple "theory".  That is that NASA and everybody else who say the world is a round, has to be lying to all of us.  If they are in fact not lying, then the earth is round, as NASA and every scientist in the world claims.  So FE believers, do you have any real evidence that NASA, other space agencies, and every country on earth is lying to us about the shape of the earth? Or will you just actually admit that you are all a bunch of trolls pulling our legs?
''Every scientist in the world'' ? It seems to be a very homogeneous group that smells after an evil cult.
It doesn't matter where you go, who you talk to, but ''every scientist in the world'' gives the same answers about our world. Like Jehova witinesses who claim the same doctrines in every corner of the world.

Money, career, family is what matters most to 95% of all scientists....so there you have your answer.
With those things at stake at any given moment, humans are proven to be extremely flexible.
All those NAZI ''scientists'' spreading propaganda about how the Jewish scull and other specific characterizations proof their wickness says it all......
Put a litlle pressure on an induvidual and he makes up his/her mind in the ''right'' direction sooner than you think.

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dutchy

  • 2366
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2017, 02:01:23 PM »
Sounds kinda simple what was said. For earth to be flat then the photos from NASA and other agencies are fake.

Yes, what was said was simple. It was also a non-sequitur.
Looks kinda like a sphere to me.

DSCOVR EPIC 187_1003703_africa
   

Russian Satellite Photo (around midday) - December 2015
   

Himawari-8 20160705120000fd
Hey the Russians forgot to add the rain forest in Africa.....silly Russians.
Or is it a cosmic mirage ?

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2015/oodiamondraeunice.jpg
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 02:09:23 PM by dutchy »

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2017, 02:04:59 PM »
No every scientist will say the same thing within reason, as science (mostly) has a definite answer so if you don't say the same thing chances are you are wrong, it's not like the Bible where there are multiple interpretations
"Religion is the opium of the people"
Karl Marx

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

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RocksEverywhere

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  • Literally everywhere.
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2017, 02:18:44 PM »
Sounds kinda simple what was said. For earth to be flat then the photos from NASA and other agencies are fake.

Yes, what was said was simple. It was also a non-sequitur.
Looks kinda like a sphere to me.

DSCOVR EPIC 187_1003703_africa
   

Russian Satellite Photo (around midday) - December 2015
   

Himawari-8 20160705120000fd
Hey the Russians forgot to add the rain forest in Africa.....silly Russians.
Or is it a cosmic mirage ?

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2015/oodiamondraeunice.jpg
That has to do with the way the picture was taken. When we usually take, and look at, pictures - it's made of red, blue and green light. There are of course other wavelengths of light, but we can't see them. If you take a picture using ultraviolet or infrared, you're going to want to have it show up on your screen. How this is done, is that one of the regular colours - red, blue or green - is replaced with the intensity measured for ultraviolet or infrared, resulting in these odd looking pictures. For the russian picture, it looks like red has been replaced with presumably near infrared, in which vegetation shows up. That's why the African rain forest as well as india, china, thailand etcetera have a very red-orangish tint.
AMA: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=68045.0

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not real.

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dutchy

  • 2366
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2017, 02:19:06 PM »
No every scientist will say the same thing within reason, as science (mostly) has a definite answer so if you don't say the same thing chances are you are wrong, it's not like the Bible where there are multiple interpretations
reason ..... a statement offered in explanation or justification
How many scientist went to space to examine, test and conclude and confirm for themselves ?
How can their opinion on secondary info justify their supposed ''definite answers''  about the cosmos ?

Most of them interpret light and waves and mathematical wild theories from space on a daily job at the office somewhere.........
When did the meaning of ''reason'' and ''justification'' became so meaningless ?

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rabinoz

  • 22863
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2017, 02:19:19 PM »
Hey the Russians forgot to add the rain forest in Africa.....silly Russians.
Or is it a cosmic mirage ?

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2015/oodiamondraeunice.jpg
Wonderful evidence! You use a drawing in a weak effort to debunk an actual photograph!

Try again.

And when I find so weak in arguments like yours is that if the Russians or anyone else were trying to fool us they would make their drawings look like what we expect.


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dutchy

  • 2366
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2017, 02:28:25 PM »
That has to do with the way the picture was taken. When we usually take, and look at, pictures - it's made of red, blue and green light. There are of course other wavelengths of light, but we can't see them. If you take a picture using ultraviolet or infrared, you're going to want to have it show up on your screen. How this is done, is that one of the regular colours - red, blue or green - is replaced with the intensity measured for ultraviolet or infrared, resulting in these odd looking pictures. For the russian picture, it looks like red has been replaced with presumably near infrared, in which vegetation shows up. That's why the African rain forest as well as india, china, thailand etcetera have a very red-orangish tint.
Thank you for your efforts !!, but i hope you see the problem with these kind of pictures.
If the real footage had to be translated into odd looking pictures for the sake of visuality, then how can we determine anyhing at all ?
I am sure that a photoshop expert can make an equall quality rendering without relying on supposed ''space'' data....i think i've allready seen them and they look equally valid.
I am also sure that NASA can make a cube earth rendering that looks as valid as the globe earth renderings.

I truly cannot believe that globers can't see this obvious problem. Photos from space don't cut it as undeniable proof for a globe earth.
But thanks again. I alway appreciate these kind of responses !

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dutchy

  • 2366
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2017, 02:36:04 PM »
Hey the Russians forgot to add the rain forest in Africa.....silly Russians.
Or is it a cosmic mirage ?

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2015/oodiamondraeunice.jpg
Wonderful evidence! You use a drawing in a weak effort to debunk an actual photograph!

Try again.

And when I find so weak in arguments like yours is that if the Russians or anyone else were trying to fool us they would make their drawings look like what we expect.
Hahaha rabbi, why are you so bad at recognising satire ?
NASA can create a cube earth from space that looks as real as your ''photo's''.
Don't you see that ? In the aftermath everything from NASA is as it should be....that is the default setting.
Duplicated clouds,....NASA has the real answer
Different continents.....that is how optics work
Citylights in Western Australia were no cities are in the nightsky timelaps from ISS........uhhhh it must have been the forest fires during that period.

Even when they somehow would forget a continent there will be a perfect explanation. Because that is the default setting...everything that NASA presents is real !
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 02:38:15 PM by dutchy »

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2017, 03:18:37 PM »
How is it flawed? 
I would suggest maybe reading your own post again. It should come to you, but if you continue to struggle, I will do my best to help.

Either the earth is flat or it isn't. 
Yes.

If it is flat, then there is a giant conspiracy. 
Do you have any evidence to support your outlandish claim?

If it is round, than there is not. 
Irrelevant.

I am asking for some evidence of a conspiracy.
See above.

I would suggest lurking moar.

That is excellent advice for the OP, especially given that they are a newer member. Well done!

Thank you for correctly assuming my useless and obfuscating advice was directed at the OP.  Further, I acknowledge and appreciate your exclaimed approval of my use of such lazy, ambiguous, low content advice. I learned this behavior from someone recently lurking around and posting similar junk on this forum.

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rabinoz

  • 22863
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2017, 03:21:00 PM »
And when I find so weak in arguments like yours is that if the Russians or anyone else were trying to fool us they would make their drawings look like what we expect.
Hahaha rabbi, why are you so bad at recognising satire ?
NASA can create a cube earth from space that looks as real as your ''photo's''.
Don't you see that ? In the aftermath everything from NASA is as it should be....that is the default setting.
Duplicated clouds,....NASA has the real answer
Please post evidence of photos that NASA claims are actual single photos with "Duplicated clouds".

Quote from: dutchy
Different continents.....that is how optics work
Don't you mean perspective and orientation. Continents looking different can be caused by distance (perspective) and the orientation.

The "perspective point" to cause that is simply distance!

This is a simulation using a desktop globe:

Quote from: dutchy
Citylights in Western Australia were no cities are in the nightsky timelaps from ISS........uhhhh it must have been the forest fires during that period.
Please post these photos references to their source.

Quote from: dutchy
Even when they somehow would forget a continent there will be a perfect explanation. Because that is the default setting...everything that NASA presents is real !
Please post these photos references to their source.

You, like so many flat earthers, simply claim rubbish and when we look into it all we find is a flat earth YouTube video!

When you make accusations, back them up.

But then, the topic is Conspiracy and you are
proving that without a doubt you believe that is a conspiracy to hide the true shape of the earth.

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RocksEverywhere

  • 1041
  • Literally everywhere.
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2017, 03:27:35 PM »
That has to do with the way the picture was taken. When we usually take, and look at, pictures - it's made of red, blue and green light. There are of course other wavelengths of light, but we can't see them. If you take a picture using ultraviolet or infrared, you're going to want to have it show up on your screen. How this is done, is that one of the regular colours - red, blue or green - is replaced with the intensity measured for ultraviolet or infrared, resulting in these odd looking pictures. For the russian picture, it looks like red has been replaced with presumably near infrared, in which vegetation shows up. That's why the African rain forest as well as india, china, thailand etcetera have a very red-orangish tint.
Thank you for your efforts !!, but i hope you see the problem with these kind of pictures.
If the real footage had to be translated into odd looking pictures for the sake of visuality, then how can we determine anyhing at all ?
I am sure that a photoshop expert can make an equall quality rendering without relying on supposed ''space'' data....i think i've allready seen them and they look equally valid.
I am also sure that NASA can make a cube earth rendering that looks as valid as the globe earth renderings.

I truly cannot believe that globers can't see this obvious problem. Photos from space don't cut it as undeniable proof for a globe earth.
But thanks again. I alway appreciate these kind of responses !
How else would you suggest visualizing UV or IR in pictures?
AMA: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=68045.0

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not real.

Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2017, 04:00:45 PM »
I am also sure that NASA can make a cube earth rendering that looks as valid as the globe earth renderings.
No. They can't.
To produce it as a cube it would result in serious distortion of the continents which would not match actual measurements (just like what happens on a flat Earth map).

I truly cannot believe that globers can't see this obvious problem. Photos from space don't cut it as undeniable proof for a globe earth.
But thanks again. I alway appreciate these kind of responses !
It isn't undeniable proof. It is just very strong evidence.

NASA can create a cube earth from space that looks as real as your ''photo's''.
Nope. It wouldn't match the size and shape of continents.

Duplicated clouds,....NASA has the real answer
Yes, duplicated clouds in a computer model of Earth, using data from low altitude satellites with observations spanning quite some time, which were then stitched together.
No problem there.
NASA never pretended that was a single image of Earth. They indicated it was a composite.

Different continents.....that is how optics work
No. The same continents, just different views of them.
If you would like another, look down. In that view, the continent more than fills the entire circular FOV that Earth resides in (assuming you aren't near the beach).
Does that mean its size has changed? No.

Is that all FEers have? Ignorance of reality?

Citylights in Western Australia were no cities are in the nightsky timelaps from ISS........uhhhh it must have been the forest fires during that period.
Care to provide an example?

Even when they somehow would forget a continent there will be a perfect explanation. Because that is the default setting...everything that NASA presents is real !
Nope.
The default for FEers is that NASA is lying and thus they try and find some excuse to claim it is fake.

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dutchy

  • 2366
Re: Conspiracy
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2017, 04:13:48 PM »
Please post evidence of photos that NASA claims are actual single photos with "Duplicated clouds".
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/klP6Z1Ahqos/hqdefault.jpg
Quote
Don't you mean perspective and orientation. Continents looking different can be caused by distance (perspective) and the orientation.

The "perspective point" to cause that is simply distance!
That is what i said....not ? It is almost like NASA did take a children's globe as in your example to figuer out perspective in space and how they would create their CGI image......nah they wouldn't, would they ???
But a REAL non cgi film of a spinning earth is out of the question,....is it ?
Quote
Please post these photos references to their source.
The 2011–12 Australian bushfire season was mostly active between September 2011 to March 2012 and caused most damage in the state of Western Australia, particularly in the South West. The state had been prepared and had expected an increased risk of bushfire following heavy spring rains as a result of a La Nina weather

The extent of the night lights in this area is also a function of composite imaging. These new images were assembled from data acquired over nine days in April 2012 and 13 days in October 2012.[/b]]over nine days in April 2012 and 13 days in October 2012.
Quote
You, like so many flat earthers, simply claim rubbish and when we look into it all we find is a flat earth YouTube video!

When you make accusations, back them up.
Need more ? Or is accurate data of place and time not considered as proof of composite fakery?
In april 2012 most of the fires were calmed down, but NASA pretends the whole Westcoast is on fire still.....because they added some october 2012 data appearently

I really wonder how you will squirm yourself out of this one.....but you will come up with something i guess.....october 2012 i guess ?
All fires were put together that is why we see this burning site......
Boy o boy what has this to do with reality whatsoever ?
You are such a gullible NASA fanboy.....btw the black marble looks extremely fake, what else do you need ?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 04:19:15 PM by dutchy »