Sun beneath the cloudd

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Sun beneath the cloudd
« on: April 05, 2017, 11:50:17 AM »
Hi there, new and Happy about discussing this without being called a nutter. I challenge people all the time to explain how they would know that the earth is round if they hadn't been told. It's an important question, it highlights that we rely so heavily on the information given without actually thinking about it for ourselves. I'm watching the sunset now and I'm wondering how, when the sun disappears over the horizon it then illuminates the clouds from beneath! The sun is way higher than the clouds.

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totallackey

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2017, 01:44:49 PM »
The rays of the Sun are reflecting off the Earth.

Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2017, 02:54:47 PM »
But the underside isn't illuminated until the sun sets  below and the clouds cast a clear shadow upwards. A lot of the. FL theories  hold up, some are beyond my current scope of knowledge

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disputeone

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2017, 07:30:01 PM »
Sunrise and sunset are big ones to get past.

Totallackey's suggestion is one of the best ones I've heard actually.
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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2017, 08:58:21 PM »
The rays of the Sun are reflecting off the Earth.

It doesn't explain how the sun is visible beneath those clouds if it supposedly maintains a constant altitude above it.
It would also appear to shrink in the sky at sunset, when in fact if any change in angular diameter is observed, it grows due to atmospheric lensing. The flat earth theory does not allow the sun to stay the same size - if the sunset effect is due to perspective, it would shrink. That is basic geometry. Things that are moving further away appear to become smaller.
Only the ignorant choose to ignore opposing views.
Fight for your belief, don't run away.
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totallackey

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2017, 05:03:06 AM »
The rays of the Sun are reflecting off the Earth.

It doesn't explain how the sun is visible beneath those clouds if it supposedly maintains a constant altitude above it.
Although I do not know if the Sun maintains a consistent altitude above the Earth, the fact objects closer to you seem greater in height than those further away is a fact of perspective.
It would also appear to shrink in the sky at sunset, when in fact if any change in angular diameter is observed, it grows due to atmospheric lensing. The flat earth theory does not allow the sun to stay the same size - if the sunset effect is due to perspective, it would shrink. That is basic geometry. Things that are moving further away appear to become smaller.
This is not the debate section, but RE and FE both account for atmospheric/atmoplane conditions.

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totallackey

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2017, 05:07:13 AM »
But the underside isn't illuminated until the sun sets  below and the clouds cast a clear shadow upwards. A lot of the. FL theories  hold up, some are beyond my current scope of knowledge
A person does not know for sure whether any part of any clouds above their head is not exhibiting some reflection of the Sun's rays, even if the Sun is also directly above or slightly off.

Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2017, 12:39:38 PM »
The rays of the Sun are reflecting off the Earth.

It doesn't explain how the sun is visible beneath those clouds if it supposedly maintains a constant altitude above it.
Although I do not know if the Sun maintains a consistent altitude above the Earth, the fact objects closer to you seem greater in height than those further away is a fact of perspective.

The sun maintaining a consistent altitude is one of the basic precepts of all Flat Earth theories. Get rid of that and you need to explain it some other way.

And the sun  receding in perspective is all well and good but if it is moving away from us on a circular path at fixed altitude, then the section of the path we should see would be an arc of a wide ellipse. On top of that, if it is always above the Earth, there should never be a point where the sun touches the horizon unless it first receded to a distance where the "atmospheric magnification" effect would have been overcome by the increasing opacity of the atmosphere (an explanation employed to explain the line of the horizon which doesn't match what is observed.)
The sun would appear out of the atmospheric haze, begin rising slowly, speeding up through the morning, swing quickly overhead as it reached maximum apparent speed at noon, it's drop towards the horizon would slow as it receded into the distance and it would blur and fade away to a dot of light well above the horizon.
This is not the case.

The sun-always-above-the-earth model doesn't hold water and any bandaids used to patch the holes are quickly ripped off by the onslaught of scientific and observable fact.
Only the ignorant choose to ignore opposing views.
Fight for your belief, don't run away.
It's the only way anyone can take you seriously.

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Antithecyst

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2017, 06:39:56 AM »
What makes us think whatever the sun appears to be to our eyes, is what it is?
Maybe our eyes are deceiving us.
Or maybe the sun isn't even a physical object, in one place at one time, the way earthbound, terrestrial objects are.
Maybe it, and the other celestial bodies, behave more like quantum objects.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 06:44:43 AM by Antithecyst »
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

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If you're not sinning against the scientific, religious and political status quo, than you're not really thinking.

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Antithecyst

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2017, 07:05:00 AM »
For example, in this picture the moon appears to be small, local, for its light is concentrated in a small area, but then approximately half the world can see it at any given time, so what're we to believe?
MS science claims the former effect is illusory (moon/sunlight concentrated in a small area), and the latter effect is not (moon/sunlight appearing to approximately half the world at any given time), but what if it's both, what if the moon/sun is both small, local, and big, 'global' (for lack of a better word), in different ways?



Here again, the sun sets, and its light appears concentrated in a small area.

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Now you could come up with some elaborate explanation for why it is other than it appears to be, but if we're to just go with our eyes, than it's both a and b.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 07:11:13 AM by Antithecyst »
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Aristotle

If you're not sinning against the scientific, religious and political status quo, than you're not really thinking.

*

rabinoz

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2017, 07:08:32 PM »
Here again, the sun sets, and its light appears concentrated in a small area.

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">

Now you could come up with some elaborate explanation for why it is other than it appears to be, but if we're to just go with our eyes, than it's both a and b.
Well for one thing, that second video is a composite made for purely artistic reasons.

Why?
Quote from: Astrobrant2, on YouTube
The moon-rise here is obviously fake. For anyone's information, whenever the moon is seen rising at the same time the sun is setting, it will be full and it will be on the opposite horizon from the sun. Some other errors in your video:
  • The fake reflection of the fake moon is in the wrong position. It should be directly below the moon, not to the left.
  • You will never see the unlit portion of the moon any darker than the sky around it.
  • The unlit portion of the moon in that phase, (gibbous), is not that shape.
  • The lit portion of the moon will point toward the sun.
Astrobrant2 is a bit hard on it, calling it a "fake", but it is not an original video. It has clearly been made under an "artistic licence".

It seems as though you are a very one-eyed Agnostic.

Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2017, 10:04:27 PM »
That "appears to be small" part is the key to your first statement too - "appears to be small" doesn't mean " is small.
It is in fact very large and very far away.
Once again, the Flat Earth theorist neglects to understand relative perspective.
Only the ignorant choose to ignore opposing views.
Fight for your belief, don't run away.
It's the only way anyone can take you seriously.

*

disputeone

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Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2017, 10:20:09 PM »
That "appears to be small" part is the key to your first statement too - "appears to be small" doesn't mean " is small.

I bet you say that a lot.

Please keep it out of Q+A. Start a thread in debate if you want to debate.
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For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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totallackey

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 4317
Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2017, 10:26:31 AM »
The rays of the Sun are reflecting off the Earth.

It doesn't explain how the sun is visible beneath those clouds if it supposedly maintains a constant altitude above it.
Although I do not know if the Sun maintains a consistent altitude above the Earth, the fact objects closer to you seem greater in height than those further away is a fact of perspective.

The sun maintaining a consistent altitude is one of the basic precepts of all Flat Earth theories. Get rid of that and you need to explain it some other way.

And the sun  receding in perspective is all well and good but if it is moving away from us on a circular path at fixed altitude, then the section of the path we should see would be an arc of a wide ellipse. On top of that, if it is always above the Earth, there should never be a point where the sun touches the horizon unless it first receded to a distance where the "atmospheric magnification" effect would have been overcome by the increasing opacity of the atmosphere (an explanation employed to explain the line of the horizon which doesn't match what is observed.)
The sun would appear out of the atmospheric haze, begin rising slowly, speeding up through the morning, swing quickly overhead as it reached maximum apparent speed at noon, it's drop towards the horizon would slow as it receded into the distance and it would blur and fade away to a dot of light well above the horizon.
This is not the case.

The sun-always-above-the-earth model doesn't hold water and any bandaids used to patch the holes are quickly ripped off by the onslaught of scientific and observable fact.
This is Q&A.

Do you have a flat earth model explanation for the OP question?

Re: Sun beneath the cloudd
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2017, 02:29:58 AM »
Thanks for the input guys, really interesting.
I watched an incredible sunrise a couple of days ago, there was a blanket of cloud that broke towards the horizon and there was the pale blue sky beyond. As the sun was rising or arriving,  it shone on the  underside of the clouds quite dramatically. As it lifted above the clouds it turned into a fairly drab day.
If the sun is moving towards me and the clouds are illuminated from the reflection of the sun's rays then how come the Shadows were so starkly cast in one quite obviously acute direction and then they stopped quickly , far too quickly for the flat earth theory's of the passing of the sun?
Also the idea that the shadows are cast from reflected rays mean that the shadow would recede from front to back ie - become shorter. yet the shadows actually get longer as the sun rises.